I've been debating (fighting?) with my female friend over the existence of sexism against men. We used to work at the same place until the owner fired all the guys.

blueskin · 2013-12-27T14:43:03+00:00

Wrongful dismissal lawsuit time.

mandilew · 2013-12-27T14:19:16+00:00

Sounds like you two need to come to a consensus of what sexism or discrimination is. If she thinks something can't be sexist or discriminatory because it's a part of "culture", then you're not arguing the same issue.

K-Li · 2013-12-27T13:32:49+00:00

You might want to point out that every -ism is a cultural thing.

oneiorosgrip · 2013-12-27T17:24:05+00:00

Examples of discrimination won't convince a feminist ideologue because feminism has a built-in excuse for discrimination against men. They use the term "privilege." The concept "privilege" relies on treating a factor's impact and meaning to the individual differently depending on the sex of the individual, so that when a factor considered beneficial is experienced by a woman, it can be treated as an entitlement, but when a man experiences it, it can be treated as an undeserved "privilege." When a factor considered detrimental is experienced by a woman, it can be considered a hardship or disadvantage, but when a man experiences it, it doesn't have to be considered at all. That outlook is used to justify treating the condition of not facing the experience of disadvantage or hardship from specifically the female perspective as an advantage, no matter what amount of disadvantage or hardship the individual faces from the male perspective. The debate-stifling term supported by this skewed perception of human experiences is "male privilege." As soon as you start bringing up discrimination against men, you'll start hearing that term, and the term "patriarchy" from the feminists in the room.

The concept of "Patriarchy" has a definition, but feminist use of it is slippery. The most common usage involves the assertion that all men get some phantom power-giving benefit from the condition of some men being in positions of prestige. That use of the concept conflates prestige with uncountered power, and ignores the influence of various feminist activist groups on people in those positions, on academia, and on the general public. This allows feminist debaters to ignore the impact of feminist activism on current legal and social conditions affecting men, and blame the phantom concept "patriarchy" without having to defend their position with real, measurable evidence.

In order to be ready to debate whether or not discrimination against individual men is discrimination, you need to be ready to counter those excuses, and to point out the ridiculousness of attempting to redefine the nature of the act of imposing disadvantage on one man because he is a man as "not discrimination" by claiming that the imposition counterbalances the perceived advantage of another man, or some perceived disadvantage of women. Be ready to break that down to the treatment of the entire population "men" as a unit instead of people, and explain why that dehumanizing approach is irrational (i.e., men are individual people, not a mass of inhuman concepts to be manipulated for ideological fodder, and the applicability of the implications of their experiences is not interchangeable between them just because they are the same sex.)

FloranHunter · 2013-12-27T17:37:29+00:00

Why is she your friend? She's clearly either poisonously self-centered or an idiot.

Nepene · 2013-12-27T16:41:51+00:00

It's worth noting the foolishness of the core argument.

Feminists believe that discrimination against men is impossible or unimportant because men are privileged by virtue of being male and do not face systematic discrimination.

Note that this idea is rather silly in our modern enlightened era- if you have a woman boss, she clearly can discriminate against men systematically. She is privileged relative to you and can use that to mess you up.

2013-12-27T14:50:23+00:00

Sidebar.

weezel365 · 2013-12-27T18:45:24+00:00

So... if all the guys were fired, who does the grunt work at the yogurt stand now?

stemgang · 2013-12-27T17:21:36+00:00

She refuses to see what is right before her eyes. You are wasting your time.

ENTP · 2013-12-27T15:49:05+00:00

Cut her off, she's a toxic person.

modernbenoni · 2013-12-27T15:39:42+00:00

You likely won't ever win the argument; some people just refuse to see a point you're making and there's no point arguing with them. As for examples, see Wiki.

Kawakji · 2013-12-27T16:42:09+00:00

Y'know, using the sandwich line really is in bad taste.

Just sayin', that's a quick way to get someone to just tune you out, regardless of the merits of your argument.

lMayback · 2013-12-27T16:57:00+00:00

You better sue the froyo shop.

avantvernacular · 2013-12-27T17:07:30+00:00

By her reasoning you can't be sexist against women either, it's just part of our culture.

brningpyre · 2013-12-27T17:09:04+00:00

'that's just our culture'

Just ask her for an example of women being oppressed, and say the same thing. How ridiculous.

Geohump · 2013-12-27T19:09:44+00:00

You should take legal action. This constitutes employment discrimination and is a federal offense. In some states it is a state level offense as well.

everyone_hates_you_ · 2013-12-27T20:14:38+00:00

Sue then says something along the lines of, “that's ridiculous men can't be discriminated against”

You just were.

Your friend is a brain dead fucking moron on top of being a sexist piece of shit.

'that's just out culture'

Say this the next time she should ever bring up how women are treated in the middle east, or how women in villages in rural africa are raped as matter of course after all their sons, brothers, husbands, etc are killed or tortured to death.

It's just their culture.

tell her to get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich, granted were in math class. Then she freaks out and tells me that's sexist.

She is utterly narcissistic, selfish, vapid, and shallow.

I don't know how close of friends you are, but it might be worth considering cutting that cancerous lesion of a person out of your life.

ihaveahadron · 2013-12-27T16:09:30+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2013-12-27T19:20:38+00:00

Why not just ask her if she'd call it sexism if all the women had been fired?

2013-12-27T18:56:28+00:00

Meh, this one is easy, you've just been doing it backwards. Throwing around random examples of men having it hard ,is never going to work here.

Textbook socratic method is your friend.

Start by defining what discrimination is, then move toward the situation in question from there, defining all other relevant concepts that may pop along the way.

The key thing to understand is she needs to do all the defining and you just lead her on. Both of you need to agree on these before moving further - if she tries to shape the definitions so they only fit women, have some counter examples ready. Then when you get to what happened the shop, you just use her own words against her.

There's no crawling away from that - she either admits defeat or she's an idiot, in which case - move along.

notnotnotfred · 2013-12-27T20:37:02+00:00

forget your girlfriend. sue your ex-boss.

MuncaJames · 2013-12-27T21:52:09+00:00

Sexism doesn't mean you are discriminated against because you are female. It means you are discriminated against solely on the basis of your sex (whether male or female, it makes no difference). If you were fired on the sole basis that you were male, then that is sexism.

Doesn't help though that even Merriam-Webster chooses to define it as:

1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism

Especially discrimination against women?

sillymod · 2013-12-27T16:17:23+00:00

Your friend is misunderstanding the argument.

In feminism, sexism is prejudice/discrimination by those who have institutional power. Feminism doesn't say that prejudice and discrimination against men can't exist, they just say that it is inconsequential and unimportant because those who discriminate against men do not have institutional power backing them. Thus, discrimination against men is okay/acceptable.

If your friend said discrimination against men doesn't exist, you may wish to encourage them to actually read feminist literature.

Shlapper · 2013-12-27T16:04:34+00:00

You could discuss the Selective Service System in America that requires adult males (and not females) to register or face penalties. You could also raise the notion of the "disposable male" and perhaps draw from Karen Straughan (GirlWritesWhat). You can talk about legislation (VAWA) and campaigns that shift focus to women as primary victims with regards to non-gendered issues (violence in general). You can talk about male genital mutilation and female genital mutilation (one is allowed, one is not). The fact that people dismiss men's issues as ridiculous or unnecessary because all men apparently have "privilege" is a sexist double standard. Check the sidebar, there's a thread of examples and I'm sure you could find more.

SHITLORDHERE · 2013-12-27T19:29:08+00:00

She's not your friend. She's a delusional cunt.

warspite88 · 2013-12-27T17:04:01+00:00

the key is "some people" both men and women some of them just cannot grasp the concept that there is discrimination against men, even still there are many who refuse to care about it even if they realize it. these people are a big part of the problem we face in todays culture, once we get a majority to agree about the bullshit facing men and boys, real solutions can come about

TPRT · 2013-12-27T18:01:02+00:00

Google the wage gap myths and be prepared to fight back when it's brought up. Talk about justice being soft on women and harsh on men, the draft, circumcision (if you wish), sex slavery that goes by unnoticed, no shelters for battered men (very few), culture that forces men to go out and support those around him.

She is going to bring up things like the wage gap and other talking points, remember men work more hours than women hence why they get paid more. But make sure to look all this up and have better sources then "dude from MR"

2013-12-27T20:08:05+00:00

Example in language:

The word 'asshole' is a strictly sexist male pejorative. It's the inverse of 'bitch' in that it's always used to describe male behaviour, and not used amongst women to describe each other.

If men make more money, why do they not get their children, as they are better able to care for them than a woman who make less on average?

If men cannot be discriminated against, why is the Selective Service compulsory for all males?

RainingDown1 · 2013-12-27T20:48:15+00:00

you need to sue that bitch get all the guys together and sue her.

MerfAvenger · 2013-12-27T21:57:47+00:00

I don't get how people can be so ignorant as to ignore an entire side of the argument. HOW can sexism NOT exist against men? What POSSIBLE reason could make NOT exist.

theozoph · 2013-12-27T17:56:35+00:00

Question : what is it you're trying to achieve? If you just want to win a debate, why? Why is changing her mind so important? What's this Sue to you? If she's a love interest, why are you talking about a wrongful dismissal to her?

Honestly, I don't see the upside, here. Figure out what you want to achieve before doing something stupid.

2013-12-27T18:42:25+00:00

men almost never get the child in a divorce and she just says 'that's just out culture' I tell her that no, it's sexism and tell her to get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich, granted were in math class. Then she freaks out and tells me that's sexist.

I'd rather make a sandwich than lose my children and be enslaved through child support, but yeah, either way right? o_O

soulslawter · 2013-12-27T19:17:25+00:00

Sounds like pretty blatant discrimination, and you should be able to sue them for wrongful dismissal as /u/blueskin said

drplump · 2013-12-27T20:03:36+00:00

Who does the grunt work now? This is the important part!

Also stop arguing toward men and instead argue from the angle of a woman. Try "So the combat deaths are not sexism but what about the exclusion of females from the combat force?" or "Is a society free of sexism women will be free to work dangerous jobs and make up 50% of workplace deaths".

adamwizzy · 2013-12-27T20:33:09+00:00

I've often heard this called "positive discrimination". I don't really see how any discrimination can be thought of as positive, the idea that this is positive is sexist in itself.

_Mayhem_ · 2013-12-27T20:33:16+00:00

Sue sounds like an idiot.

2013-12-27T21:08:33+00:00

Did the owner hire a new batch of guys to do the grunt work or are the girls now standing around an empty store wondering why new stock isn't just magically appearing on the shelves? Or worse yet, are the girls having to actually work?

2013-12-27T21:45:14+00:00

Wait, so, who the hell now works at that store?

cellestian · 2013-12-27T21:52:15+00:00

So, back before it was illegal to beat your wife, was beating your wife a morally ok thing to do? It was just a part of ourculture after all. /sarcasm

2013-12-28T03:22:02+00:00

You know, instead of arguing with a current employee, you should have a debate in court with the owner.

rightsbot · 2013-12-27T13:20:18+00:00

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Cake_Bandit · 2013-12-27T18:41:06+00:00

I feel that combat deaths can't really be a valid argument for the MensRights movement. Aside from The Vietnam War, men sign up for combat positions and women aren't allowed into most of those jobs. Am I missing something here? I just don't understand the rationale behind that particular argument.

Miathermopolis · 2013-12-27T20:37:45+00:00

I mean, just ask her to switch the genders in your story and ask her if she would think it is sexist. And then explain to her that that is why it is sexist. Because it is.

Her attitude of, "Men can't be discriminated against" is ridiculous. Ask her to switch the genders, or even make it about race, and then see how she feels about that statement.

It's ludicrous. Drop that "friend" please.

redpilldude · 2013-12-27T20:29:36+00:00

You will never convince her because she feels right. Women make decisions usings feelings, not logic.

mandilew · 2013-12-27T14:22:55+00:00

As for examples, use advertising. Until a couple of years ago, men were portrayed as completely incompetent and ignorant of everything household-related. That perpetuated the stereotype that men make inferior parents. The first commercial I can think of that changed that was the Tide one a couple of years ago where the dad was folding laundry and the girl asks him to play ponies. Remember that?

2013-12-27T19:11:53+00:00

Oh culture, you are such a good excuse for everything terrible in the world.

Ooshkii · 2013-12-27T20:58:13+00:00

Even with evidence, she can dismiss your claims with the same flawed arguments she has already put forth. A better approach would be to study up on your logical fallacies, and word definitions, and attempt to work her through why she thinks men can't be discriminated against. Just make sure to explain each fallacy as it appears and not just say, "Nuh-uh, you can't beg the question, that's a fallacy so you are wrong."

Darkenmal · 2013-12-27T21:20:18+00:00

Your friend is the result of our society. She is wilfully blind, and despite your efforts she does not want to see, as her entire world-view would change.

2013-12-27T21:25:08+00:00

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Your_Bacon_Counselor · 2013-12-27T21:45:01+00:00

If sexism cannot exist against men then neither can it exist against women. The sammich comment probably killed any potential positive outcome. Oh well.

2013-12-27T22:06:37+00:00

Your friend sounds incredibly ignorant. On top of that it sounds like she has very little respect for you and/or men in general. Reconsider your friendship unless she stops being so bigoted or she's really that important in your life.

2013-12-27T22:13:42+00:00

she just says 'that's just out culture'

in other words she agreed with you. sexism is part of our culture.

anthemlog · 2013-12-27T23:38:58+00:00

Your friend is the kind of girl that will end up raping a man while defending that men can't be raped.

2013-12-28T00:11:13+00:00

Yeah, i can help you out -- your friend is a dirtbag and she is talking shit. Hand her a roll of toilet paper, tell her to wipe her mouth, and then tell her "Buh-Bye!"

Eurydemus · 2013-12-28T00:55:35+00:00

As a young man that's faced this kind of discrimination in the work place, I'm right behind you. I've been denied jobs in my own community because I'm a guy. There's an employer in my city that only hires girls at the businesses she owns.

2013-12-27T19:02:29+00:00

Why do you bother talking to cunts? Seriously. Get a life.

Chrispity · 2013-12-28T00:57:30+00:00

and tell her to get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich

so, you're not wrong... but you're still an asshole

Dresdain · 2013-12-27T17:32:58+00:00

Ive been In arugements like this with my sister. She makes good points. Like well.of course men are most combat deaths because they dont let women in combat roles. Women get the children in a divorce because of the view of women as the caretaker/childbearer which is in turn sexist view towards women.

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