I feel like there is an unwritten rule in society that men are expected to listen to their wives / girlfriends and be obedient to them. Nobody wants to talk about this though and some people even think it's misogynistic to bring it up.

jestarcarbar · 2020-09-21T21:47:00+00:00

When I was young I worked for a Korean man and his wife. One day we were talking about relationships and he told me, "You tell the woman, 'I'm going to do X with my life. If you want to follow me, good. If not, go now'." It was so strange at the time but I see now he was right.

MotherOfLogic · 2020-09-21T19:48:54+00:00

It’s a fucked up world we live in.

ModsAreHellaCucks · 2020-09-21T15:52:41+00:00

Its readily apparaint if you look at tropes about relationships in the western world. 'honey-do lists' 'lets go to my parents' 'happy wife happy life'. Its all about subservience and making your wife happy in order to have a good relationship, putting in the work and altering yourself to make yourself desireable, etc. Its just another example of how pervasive the narrative is surrounding this crap that people can look at this and still think women are second class to men in developed countries. A woman is seen as good as is, a man is only good if he can bend over backwards for his spouse.

sceneugh · 2020-09-21T20:51:44+00:00

Ya you have a man cave ???? I do to it’s my whole house.

DanteLivra · 2020-09-21T21:39:51+00:00

I have a similar feeling, the slogan "happy wife, happy life" says it all.

Personally I don't want to live with an entitled and toxic person.

SafetyDude72 · 2020-09-21T20:10:55+00:00

Be the change you want to be. I waited until I was in my 40's to get married. Why? Because it took that long to find a woman mature enough to see the value that I have to bring to the relationship and had the same values as me. I had some lonely moments, but so did the guys that I knew in relationships. Don't compromise what is important for a good piece of ass. Make a good life for yourself and understand what makes you happy, then find a woman that shares your vision. Too many men marry women that they think society will approve of, but inside they know the woman doesn't really meet their own standards or values.

DillonTheFatUglyMale · 2020-09-21T21:25:57+00:00

Can definitely believe it. Especially in public men seem to be so passive. If they are the "winner" of the dispute they are thought of as abusers

ulpisen · 2020-09-22T00:39:24+00:00

I got into an argument with my girlfriend about this, basically she said "you never listen to me" and I said, "I do, I just don't obey you, don't order me around"

She's my ex now, but that's unrelated

At least I think that's unrelated...

beatstorelax · 2020-09-21T18:10:53+00:00

the rule of simping. yeah. very old. yes, men are expected to make more stuff, get more money. but aren't allowed to even choose where they will live when married. search for "man cave" and you will see it

Cocoa-nut-Cum · 2020-09-21T22:37:54+00:00

It goes so far that if you choose to be single and retain your freedom to live life as you please that something is wrong with you. I broke up with a controlling, manipulative woman 3 years ago and haven’t looked back. Much to the dismay of my friends and family.

AndyBrown65 · 2020-09-21T23:22:33+00:00

“happy wife, happy life” is the phrase that seems to permeate marriage and has been passed down from mother to daughter. It's a bullying thing, a show of coercive power to try to get stuff.

"I'm the mother of your children"
"Don't forget I make the dinner around here"

The truth is always the opposite to the catchphrase in marketing. Marriage is said to be Patriarchal, but in reality it is very Matriarchal

flipitsmike · 2020-09-21T20:58:15+00:00

My judo sensei once said “you can be king of the castle, if the queen allows it”.

It was a tough lesson; but sadly it’s true.

That’s why I’m single.

fuckyallshit · 2020-09-21T22:41:57+00:00

I have noticed this when I see memes here lately that it seems to be that mindset. My own parents tend to have my mother as the more dominant in the relationship. But I think as gender roles are becoming more equal this is becoming more equal as well. As both sides are being expected to be emotionally and financially responsible there is a greater balance.

2020-09-21T20:25:27+00:00

I happily ignore this crap.

My happiness matters first. Deal with it.

Shiiroun · 2020-09-21T20:58:12+00:00

I feel the same way from what I've seen in my straight friends' relationships, the man usually bends his back backwards to please the woman and when there's a disagreement the woman tends to be the most agressive. Obviously it's not ALL women at all!! but I've definitely noticed this observation in my social circle.

There's even some research showing that this extends outside of relationship contexts also.

Again I've personally dealt with this when I got in even small arguments with women, they tend to not be afraid to scream or get ''agressive''. I think part of it is because they know they can get away with this, and because when us men get angry people are scared because of our voice or build, if that makes sense? (not my first language sorry)

In France there's a TV game in which estate agents have clients and compete to find them the best place for them. It's often straight couples, and I've always thought it was out of place when the commentator repeatedly drops the same kind of comments about how "too bad if you (the guy) don't like it because in these decisions, the woman has the last word", and everyone finds it normal?

Anyway, good thread that's definitely good food for thoughts.

TexasDutch · 2020-09-22T01:16:23+00:00

The whole “better half” thing is what always irritated me.

Humanfour · 2020-09-22T00:34:21+00:00

I think one thing we can agree on is that one-sided relationships shouldn’t be seen as normal and that if you’re aware someone is in one, help them get out. They’re not happy even if they’ve convinced themselves otherwise.

LEGALinSCCCA · 2020-09-22T03:02:43+00:00

No offense, but women are the most entitled group of people I've ever met. Just a pattern I've noticed. Doesn't mean there's no entitled men. But they aren't "allowed" or "suppose to" actually act entitled.

Chillz71 · 2020-09-21T22:43:41+00:00

My ex wife would beg to differ ... I was never a pushover like her dad was . It INFURIATED her 😝

MelkorHimself · 2020-09-22T03:48:19+00:00

This is an instance where MGTOW philosophy has merit. As much as I support the MRM's endeavours to change this, it is unlikely to budge, and nothing sucks the wind out of a woman's sails more than simply not committing to her.

Keddsy · 2020-09-21T23:48:04+00:00

I don't listen to wife because society tells me to do so. I listen to her because I value communication in my marriage. I used to find she would not tell me things because she thought I would get upset. I would actually get annoyed that she wouldn't talk to me which is the opposite of what she thought would have happened.

I'm not obedient to my wife however I do consult her to see whether I can do something. We have 2 boys under the age of 4 and although I would like to drop everything and go to the pub I have responsibilities. My wife does the same.

It's my belief that you should clearly communicate and respect your partner because it's a partnership not ownership.

andybev01 · 2020-09-21T23:50:49+00:00

...I'm happy I'm gay...

Offtangent · 2020-09-21T21:20:34+00:00

This is absolute bullshit. As soon as I'm done doing all the chores my wife wants me to do Ill explain why.

thefilthyhermit · 2020-09-21T23:47:11+00:00

I’ve always noticed this. When I was a kid, I watched old westerns with my uncle and I always noticed how the women always controlled the house, slapped their husbands and chased their husbands out of the house. And when I stopped being a feminist, I always thought of this and began to wonder “If women were scared for their lives because of men’s power, why did women slap their husbands silly and chase him around the household if he disobeyed her?” You even see this in other cultures like in Asia and South America. It’s simple. The house is her domain, where she rules and makes the demands and society says you have to listen to her or else she’ll make you.

YourPainBringer · 2020-09-21T20:40:11+00:00

The rule is the fruit of the yearly hardworking of the women community. They tame you by using "Happy wife happy life". They may say it with a smile, but actually it is a threat.

funny_like_how · 2020-09-21T23:20:23+00:00

So... Karen's in a nutshell?

your-moms-boyfriend7 · 2020-09-21T20:30:30+00:00

Women and children suffer when men constantly pander to their happiness. She’s happiest when you are. If not, she’s not worth the headache.

commacausey · 2020-09-22T04:05:12+00:00

Instead of “Happy wife, happy life” I say “Happy spouse, happy house”

yelo777 · 2020-09-22T11:14:48+00:00

In old times, the division of labor was that the man was the breadwinner and women the boss of the household. Now most women work, but they still want the role of the boss of the household, because the husband will "do it wrong" if he does something his way. If we're supposed to have a more equal relationship, women needs to accept that her husband may do things a bit differently and accept that, without scolding or nagging him. The man also have to take responsibility.

Lady_Catfish · 2020-09-21T18:32:10+00:00

Of course. This is why MGTOW dudes say don't get married.

" Granted not all women demand this behavior out of men. And it may not always be something that's done with malice. But I think we need to start having a conversation about this in society and stop acting like it's sexist or misogynistic for pointing it out." -> Saying there are some nice women out there is like saying some of the pre-Civil War slave masters were kind and sweet to their slaves and did not beat them. Fed them well, good health care, etc. However, the slave still lived at their master's mercy. That can change at any time. The master still has power over the slave.

Fortunately for us, marriage (if viewed as a "slave contract") is one you can chose to not get into.

If you feel you want a family and kids and stuff and must get married, then understand and accept what you are getting into. Pick one.

Tweapodok33 · 2020-09-21T21:45:06+00:00

The “happy wife, happy life” mentality has been around far longer than anyone wants to admit. They wrote songs about how women are really in charge of the household as far back as the 40s and 50s.

macobus · 2020-09-22T01:01:30+00:00

as i was reading this i heard my dad getting yelled at for offering to help my mom, i poked my head upstairs and asked her why she was yelling at my dad for no reason. she stomped off to her room and slammed the door.

RickWest495 · 2020-09-21T21:08:58+00:00

“Happy Wife, Happy Life” is translated are “Men Don’t Matter. Shut up and do as your are told.”

CochinoChingon · 2020-09-22T00:04:17+00:00

I would bet money that the 80s study, the male dominant relationships were minorities/immigrants. Growing up, TV families (sitcoms) and the families I knew growing up were nothing alike, aside from both parents being in the home.

vicious_armbar · 2020-09-22T01:35:16+00:00

Yes this is what western society expects out of men. So fuck western society! It can burn to the ground for all I care. You can avoid all of these obligations by refusing to get married or have children. So don't do those things.

Or if you insist on doing them than do them in a legal jurisdiction that either has sane laws (abu dhabi) or a government too weak and bureaucratic to effectively enforce family court judgements. Ie: South and Central America, Eastern Europe, etc.

browhodouknowhere · 2020-09-22T05:29:59+00:00

Any non reciprocal relationship is a recipe for disaster.

Heterodynist · 2020-09-22T06:09:15+00:00

I really want to comment on this more, but the fact is that this argument is very well-stated and well-supported with relevant facts and I couldn’t agree more wholeheartedly.

This is one of the biggest issues that effects ALL our lives as men. Let’s NEVER forget that it’s not okay for anyone to be subservient in a relationship. The contest to see who can claim the biggest lie in the “Battle of the Sexes” and be believed, goes to women. They somehow have a huge percentage of the public bullied into believing that they aren’t in charge, that they aren’t powerful, and that they are constantly being subverted by men’s authority. It’s conclusively false that this is the case. All the men I know, who are mature adults, learn this fact. Men do NOT have power in their relationships, on the whole. It’s not even remotely true that they control society. The fact we have a society that can even pretend that is true, shows the TRULY subversive power of women in society. Whatever they demand overrides any need of any man.

I’ve heard it said wars don’t start because men are fighting; It becomes a war when women and children are affected by it. That’s when wars begin. What does that mean?! Men’s issues mean nothing until they start to effect women. Who has the final say? -Women!! Use logic and reasoning skills and it becomes inherently obvious who has the power in society.

mogydee · 2020-09-22T09:39:03+00:00

As stated this has been consistent throughout the history of civilized society. Since we're supposed to be in an age of non gender discrimination this is a good one to try to eliminate. Personally I think its only just and fair that each gender partner sacrifice the same in a relationship

ErinKR39 · 2020-09-22T11:15:36+00:00

I’ve always found it weird that wedding planners always make sure everything is exactly how the bride wants it. Surely it two people are getting married then both parties should play an equal roll in the planning?

Countrysedan · 2020-09-22T11:20:31+00:00

Yup this. I was expected to listen and never interrupt and if I did I was accused of mansplaining. She could of course interrupt all she wanted.

Smoking-Bandit · 2020-09-22T13:45:53+00:00

I don't approve of this any more than you do, don't get me wrong, but plenty of guys become obedient because they are slaves to pussy. Women can withhold sex and that's the worst punishment a man can get.

Men ALLOW women to be the dominant one in rules and decision making, because they crave pussy. That's the situation simplified, and doesn't apply to all relationships, but in general from what I've seen, this is the case. The women know it and use it to their advantage.

Like, the actual way to avoid this is to not be kneel down before a woman for her affection. If she truly loves you, she will give it to you no matter what (unless you seriously done fucked up) and so will you.

ultrasuperthrowaway · 2020-09-21T22:17:05+00:00

Women also have the kids and get preferential treatment to parental rights

Dim6969696969420 · 2020-09-21T22:12:32+00:00

Yeah. This shit started in the west after the war, and is now slowly coming into eastern Europe and Asia

pw216y · 2020-09-21T21:09:03+00:00

I'm obedient to my wife to a degree. If she tells me I can't play golf this weekend, I dont listen to that non sense. Now when she told me to stop screwing her best friend, I obliged her.

asdf333aza · 2020-09-21T23:27:37+00:00

I imagine back in the day, both husband and wife listened to each other inside the house, but the man had the final say and was the leader of the household especially in public.

But women have been able to abolish their role. They are in a position where they don't have to listen at all. As there are next to little or flat out no consequences for them. HELL, If they don't listen to their man they may in fact be rewarded and called a strong woman. While men are called jerks, abusers, patriachs, sexist, misogynistic, and everything else.

On top of that, if a male doesn't listen to his wife, she can take sex away from him. She can stop cooking. She can stop cleaning. She can withdraw her love from him at anytime even within a marriage. But if a woman stops listening to her husband, he can't take anything from her. He can't take her car. He can't stop protecting the house. He can't remove her standard of living. He can't take away his financial support for her. He can't kick her out. If he does any of that he is labeled as abusive, controlling and everything else. He may even be arrested. He can't do anything except say "okay honey".

We are at a place where women don't have to listen at all, unless they want to. While men have to listen or else. Women arent bound by their traditional roles, while for men, our roles are legally enforced on us in most cases.

Gamernator-GX · 2020-09-21T21:42:32+00:00

The female domination that is clearly apparent these days is destructive to men. A man cant say anything about women staying home to take care of a baby she has just given birth to, or be seen cooking in a kitchen without being a victim of the Feminist wrath that considers these kinds of comments sexist or patriarchal. The victim card that women play 100% of the time is terribly annoying. I cant stand the nagging that women put on men to do a certain job or task, yet women want this "equality" to do everything that men can do and have always done without causing any problems.

My dad said to my mom once, "Women are equal to men. Why cant you do this task yourself without needing a man to do it for you? Are you too weak to lift up a garbage bag or incapable of putting the toilet seat down without complaining about it? So then why do you do it? Its unnecessary. You say I dont do my equal share of chores around the house? Fine. I'll cook the meals, take care of the kids, dust the furniture, vacuum the floor, do the laundry, iron the clothes, clean the bathrooms, take the trash out and all the other things you do. That way you can wash and wax both cars, mow the lawn and do all the gardening, clean out the garage, wash the windows, make all structural repairs, fix the plumbing, fix the electrical devices, fix the fence and paint it, wash the roof and storm gutters, and all the other physically demanding chores that I actually do. No dice? Fine. You stick to your chores and I'll stick to mine. Stop being negative, quit nagging and lying and demanding special treatment. Prove your equality by doing all these things yourself without getting into a hissy-fit, otherwise you are proving that you are weaker, dumber and less capable of performing certain tasks than a man is." Its like he was the one who invented "Karen, stop It."

Some personal experiences to explain my reasons...

I've been MGTOW since before it was a term. I'm 43 now, and I haven't dated or had a girlfriend since the year 2000 when I was 23. I was in my prime, but I stayed away from the women because I saw just how crazy, demanding, hypocritical and abusive they were and I refused to pander to their needs only without receiving equal love and care in return.

I used to be the white knight in high school, protecting all the women. If they complained about a boy being disrespectful or violent with them, I would seek this guy out, confront them and beat the shit out of them if necessary. Then the guy would be put on the undateable list, so the girls knew to never date him. In most schools, all the jocks got the girls. Not at my school. The prettiest girls went out with the geeks and people that didnt belong to any cliques. I would get a lot of dates because I always protected them and treated them like goddesses and bought tons of expensive stuff for them.

Years later, when it was too late, I realized that I was just being taken advantage of. Very few of those girls were ever treated poorly by guys. But the girls knew if they falsely accused someone, they could act like the damsel in distress and play the victim card to get what they wanted. Every single girl acted the same exact way. But the ones who were best to me were the ones who didnt lie about being abused by some guy, and I actually caught him being abusive. These were only my first girlfriend in 9th grade (she was a senior) and my last girlfriend in 12th grade (she left me when I was in the Army, and we were engaged).

I dated a little bit after that, but rarely. I finally just quit on it in 2000 because I was sick and tired of the abuse that I realized didnt come from men, but from the women. My parents were narcissists and I noticed the same behavior coming from most women I dated, and I didnt tolerate it. Sure, there are good women out there, but even though things seemed good at the time, eventually, every woman takes a shit on the situation and makes the man a true victim of abuse. I will still be respectful to women, but I'm not going to allow myself to be trapped in their claws in a relationship. Never.

misterDerpDerpDerp · 2020-09-21T23:16:01+00:00

Don’t worry op, you’ll be cured once you get married to another dude.

2020-09-21T20:43:56+00:00

i’m generally obedient as a member of the community that is the human race

uchihaitachi1237 · 2020-09-21T22:38:34+00:00

Isn't it the other way round though? Atleast in my culture. Victim mentality and being soy boys has done this to the west

RepulsiveCockroach7 · 2020-09-22T04:02:07+00:00

Unspoken?? What do you think the phrase "happy wife happy life" means?

michaelpaoli · 2020-09-22T04:52:39+00:00

Listen, yes, understand - sure, at least reasonably try, obedient? ... naw - that's not how that's supposed to work.

iainmf · 2020-09-22T05:56:08+00:00

We tell men they are in charge the same way we tell women they don't look fat.

It's a social fiction to get along.

timeslidesRD · 2020-09-22T08:04:02+00:00

A lot of this stuff is true. Its so ingrained in our society though that barely anyone even notices it. Take the home. Women usually control the home in terms of what it looks like, how its decorated, what goes where, what is bought for it etc. Men are usually relegated to the garage or the shed, which basically become the only areas where they get to decide how it looks/is. The phrase man cave is so common it underlines this. Men pay an equal or often larger share of the mortgage, but are forced into only having these frankly crappy small spaces to have as their own, while the woman usually has dominion over the house. Further evidence is the bedroom. Look at the bedroom of the average married couple. Does it look anything like a man had any input on its appearance? Not really.

My wife and I earn pretty much the same, so we paid 50/50 for our house, but my wife still gets mad if I dont put something away in the "correct" place (i.e. where she's decided it goes). She is also naturally untidy, so daily will leave things out, clothes everywhere, leave food out etc which makes me crazy because I hate mess and clutter and I used my life savings for the house same as she did. But, if it were the other way around I'd be the lazy slob husband who expects his wife to clean up after him.

We've somehow got into this crazy situation where at some point in the past some men had extra legal rights than women, which has not been the case in the west for many decades now, but because of this the present is still seen as a "mans world" despite societally men being pretty much second class citizens.

-Hal-Jordan- · 2020-09-22T08:47:28+00:00

I've heard about this a lot, but never experienced it personally. My (late) wife of 46 years was my partner in life, and neither of us would think of doing something that would negatively affect the other one without talking it over first. The quote I always heard was "If she ain't happy, ain't nobody happy." To me, this meant "Don't do stupid stuff that you know will make her unhappy. Talk it over first and find a way to compromise."

Women aren't (all) evil.

AutoModerator · 2020-09-22T09:25:30+00:00

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mastermikeyboy · 2020-09-22T11:21:58+00:00

The statement hold true. But it goes the other way too.

And happy doesn't mean giving in to every momentary desire. I've made my wife happy by helping out around the house, building her up, supporting her projects (within financial capacity) and helping her through the post-partum depression.

The expensive toys won't make a woman happy. They'll make more unhappy in the long run.

That doesn't mean I never give her nice toys either. Yesterday I upgraded her from a G15 keyboard to the K95 with MX speed switches and she's super happy with that :)

MeLittleSKS · 2020-09-22T12:27:20+00:00

I don't understand men who can live that way.

my wife and I have a good partnership. we really do decide things as a team. we share all finances, we share all decisions. And it's not like we're not allowed to do things without consulting the other first, it's that we WANT to make the decisions together. I couldn't even say whether or not one of us is the "dominant" one. Almost every major decisions we've ever made was made together. One of us may have suggested it or initiated it first, or one of us maybe took the lead on enacting it, but we do it together.

Miles-Standoffish · 2020-09-21T22:04:51+00:00

Men and women are created differently, and our brains process reality differently. So there will always be inequality in our relationships [along with all sorts of conflicts and disputes]. How we as a society understand the innate differences and what our society/community values has a lot to do with how we resolve these issues in our relationship.

I recommend checking out the marriage program, "Love and Respect" for more of this info, as well as how to get the different needs satisfied. L&R goes into some detail, and advocates for each gender to learn, understand, and 'speak the other's language' in order to have a more harmonious relationship.

ablokeinpf · 2020-09-22T04:32:08+00:00

I didn't need a bunch of studies to tell me this. :)

fyp2017 · 2020-09-21T23:16:20+00:00

The larger question is this: If women want total and unquestioned equality and be basically treated the same as men, then why in fuck's name do you keep asking us to be subservient to you? Are you not in fact asking for the same rights because you're TRYING TO ESCAPE this? So why in fuck's name are you doing the same to men?

This constant and incessant social narrative of how it's ok to basically treat men like shit is getting FUCKING old and tiresome. If you want a dick, then stop being a pussy.

EvilLothar · 2020-09-21T17:01:03+00:00

This is men giving up their traditional roles as the leader of their households to try to make their women more happy, because it seems that it would be more "fair" to the men. They don't realize that most women need a man to lead them and be a strong head of household.

Most women are attracted to leadership and dominance. It a biological holdover to how we evolved, with women giving priority to men that can protect them and their offspring.

ModsAreHellaCucks · 2020-09-21T19:37:49+00:00

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Lady_Catfish · 2020-09-21T18:28:45+00:00

If it's unwritten, then the only person enforcing it is the prison that has been created in your head.

Change my mind

BaelorsBalls · 2020-09-21T23:23:57+00:00

All I see and hear on this sub are VICTIMS. I’d prefer toxic masculinity honestly

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