What is the ideal? What works best in a relationship?

howdoiw0rkthisthing · 2023-12-09T14:46:02+00:00

The feminist dream was for paid work and unpaid domestic work to be truly split 50/50 between the sexes. A few generations later… it’s looking like we either need a few more generations or like it’s a pipe dream.

The only way for a woman to “have it all” is to do it all.

Safinated · 2023-12-09T15:29:38+00:00

You want clear answers, easy solutions and guarantees

That’s not how life works

TermAggravating8043 · 2023-12-09T15:36:05+00:00

Firstly, I would avoid guys that say their a red pilled man that wants to provide and protect his family, this is just code for a guy to work, not lift a finger to help you with housework or kids regardless of whether you work or not. He’ll argue he’s “protecting” you from home invasion or bears etc but it’s more than likely he’ll panic when anything gets serious and make you deal with it, and he’ll always think he’s more important than you and will constantly think your going to cheat

I think I got the ideal and here it is,

Both me n hubby, worked full time for several years, bought a house together, got married then decided to have kids. From our first date we both talked about what we wanted in life, agreeing on the big stuff. Of course we had dark periods where we almost broke up but got through them.

Once we had our first kid, we decided it would be best for me to leave my job (he made more money and actually enjoy his job) and get something on shift work that helped costs for childcare, this really helped us as we had been struggling as a couple but now it forced him to parent on his own instead of always relying on me. Now we’re your classic family unit, house in the country, 2 kids and a hamster. He works full time, I work part time around the kids, since I manage the house and childcare, I am in charge, and I make our decisions.

Basically, you need to know what you want from life, meet a guy that’s on the same page as you and that’s realistic about life, someone that’s not lazy and cares about your needs, and most importantly, can make you laugh

Pathosgrim · 2023-12-09T13:40:55+00:00

The guy probably fears you'd leave him after you had his kids and after your business takes off. Ultimately, both sides have to compromise, and that's hard for both men and women to do.

md8716 · 2023-12-09T18:35:49+00:00

It sounds miserable. BUT, this scenario would result in me being financially-dependent on my husband and I don't think this is healthy.

If you can't trust your life partner and father of your children to support you during a vulnerable period, then why tf are you getting married to him? Why would you even have kids with someone like that?

What if it's not pregnancy? What if you get cancer and can't work cause you're in chemo? What if you get hit by a car and it takes years to recover? What if you get laid off and can't find a job? Is it unhealthy to rely on him at that point?

It is healthy to have a support system that you can lean on when you need them. It is NOT healthy to be so afraid of being vulnerable that you go into a marriage with only one foot in, paranoid, defensive, and guarded about having to rely on your partner.

krackedy · 2023-12-09T14:59:24+00:00

The ideal is decent (12+ months maternity leave).

We have 18 months of maternity leave available to moms here. If my girlfriend and I were to have a baby she'd probably do that then maybe go back part time until the kid was in school.

reddit_is_geh · 2023-12-09T15:10:13+00:00

Trust me when I say that men who say they don't value intelligence are fucking idiots themselves, or desperate losers putting on a facade to justify going for easier idiots/living mentally in HS.

I actually don't trust a man who says he doesn't value intelligence, because all it signals to me is the guy is an idiot, or has insecurities he's dealing with where he wants "control" over women because he doesn't know how to navigate them well enough, which is a red flag.

For me, how "hot" a woman is, is definitely important and powerful. It'll cause me to make consessions and look over some flaws the more hot she gets (within reason), however, with intelligence, there is no range. It's binary. The ticket for entry is a certain level of intelligence where we can have deep, nuanced, and complicated discussions. It's absolutely impossible to manage a relationship with someone like myself who's also an entrepreneur, and smart, when she isn't able to stay on my level. If we can't converse about these challenges, and deep spiritual and intellectual ideas... She'd be impossible to be around for long periods of time. It's impossible to be vulnerable and navigate problems when the other person is intellectually not a near peer.

Any guy who says otherwise has serious issues, and I will fight to the death on this hill. Intellect is like dick size I imagine... There is a minimum barrier to entry, with anything below that is a non starter. Being extra super intelligent actually doesn't even matter much at all for the relationship. Unlike looks and personality, it wont cause me to "like you more". But there absolutely is a high minimum threshold.

With the entrepreneurship thing, personally I think it's great. Everyone needs something to pour their free time into -- ideally something that makes money. It only becomes an issue for me, when it's a full time heavily dedicated way of life. Because it ruins all flexibility and agility. She's committed to that business, and I'm committed to mine, and it often just creates a world of complications when both parties have such critical high priority things clashing. For instance, a woman who is a 1099 designer, does art, sales things online, or some sort of remote worker? All good to me. But if she owns a bakery? No way. We're now stuck here and she's going to slaving away harder than I am keeping that brick and mortar managed.

Also I'd like to point out a redflag... I'm someone who's VERY familiar with the RP community. I wont say more because this is my anon account. But trust me when I say I know a lot of these people and very clearly understand the trends and patterns of different guys within it.

The guy you're talking about, massively lacks nuance (maybe that's why he doesn't like intelligence?). Guys that are that open, and rigid with RP core concepts (concepts meant for young starter guys to set a foundation, but not the holy bible), have internal issues that will emerge later. It's not that he's traditional - as I am -- but rather how he's rigidly defined the ideal partner and already looks for women to fit that role perfectly. These guys tend to be very insufferable over time, and start insisting the world and everyone around them fit into their categorical "ideal". And since they have money and success, they'll use this leverage to force people into those boxes. These guys also tend not to be able to relax, worried you'll leave to the next guy, so you wont get that vulnerability and trust. He'll always feel like he has to plot and defend... So he'll try to constantly try to reaffirm his status to you as "above you" so you don't swing away, and it just isn't healthy. You'll notice everything is some sort of social dynamic game of push and pull, and it'll start driving you nuts.

But again, I hardly know the situation, and just basing that off the limited information you're explaining. But a guy that deep into RP ideology, with such rigid structures, 80% of the time, will fall into this territory.

Educational_Mud_9062 · 2023-12-09T18:45:49+00:00

Congratulations, you've figured out that the easiest way to be comfortable regardless of gender is to be rich, ideally having others pay for your lifestyle (passive income) and that people with a similar mindset tend to be selfish and view other people primarily as means to their own ends (the man you're currently dating)

apresonly · 2023-12-09T17:13:25+00:00

When I am pregnant and raising children, especially when they are young, I want to be present and low-stress. I also want to take care of myself physically and mentally (I don't want to get fat and be a nag). I don't think this is realistic.. to be relaxed/calm, taking care of myself, my family, my body, etc AND also working a full-time job for a company

its not even realistic to be a SAHM and be able to be relaxed/calm and take care of yourself (and your husband) AND be a calm and patient mom all the time.

it literally takes a village, we are supposed to have 4 loving adults around for kids, that's what we used to have.

Anyway, this is why i decided not to have kids. i grew up in a stressed out home and it was awful. I am not continuing the cycle.

tadL · 2023-12-09T15:58:00+00:00

You've got to give a little, take a little And let your poor heart break a little That's the story of... That's the glory of love You've got to laugh a little, cry a little Before the clouds roll by a little That's the story of... That's the glory of love As long as there's the two of you! You've got the world and all its charms And when the world is through with you! Yo've got each other's arms You've got to win a little, lose a little And always have the blues a little That's the story of... That's the glory of love As long as there's the two of you! You've got the world and all its charms And when the world is through with you! You've got each other's arms You've got to win a little, lose a little And always have the blues a little That's the story of... That's the glory of love

MiddleZealousideal89 · 2023-12-09T18:58:46+00:00

Is it ideal for the wife/mother to have an entrepreneurial, small-business pursuit which is not as demanding and for the husband/dad to be the provider?

I'd say it is but it's an unlikely scenario for most people. But yes, having your own financial security and having someone who could take on the bulk of the financial responsibility while you're taking care of an infant/toddler would be ideal. It's important to be able to support yourself because shit happens, it's not a good idea to put all of your eggs in the ''my husband will always provide for me'' basket.

As to what can make a happy, healthy marriage, I'd say I have one, and this is what I've learned - there's never going to be a perfect 50/50 split, someone will make more money, do slightly more chores around the house, have shittier hours, etc. Sometimes people go through shit and are extremely tired and stressed out, so it might be 60/40 or 70/30 or even 80/20 for a while. I bolded ''for a while'' because you should still strive to split things up evenly, and expecting the other person to carry most of the responsibilities in the relationship for an extended period is just going to end up with resentment. You should work as a team, if one of you is having a rough week, the other one picks up the slack. You should lift each other up and support each other's aspirations and wins, even if they aren't all that grand. You should respect your partner's time and effort and not just assume they should just be doing this shit anyway. My husband is currently the only one working, I'm getting my ducks in a row to get the job I want here, his hours are kinda shit, so I do the majority of household chores, and I appreciate how hard he works and when he helps out with the laundry or dishes. On his end, he appreciates the effort and thought I put into our meals, and that I make sure he doesn't have to worry about clean clothes, a clean bathroom and kitchen, and whether the fridge and pantry are stocked up. When both of us were working, we'd split the chores and whoever got home first got dinner ready (either warm it up or make something).

We don't have kids yet, so I can't give any particularly deep insight into that but your spouse has to give you the time to take care of yourself, whether that means taking a nap, going to the gym, reading a book, taking a bath or something else. You can't be ''on'' 24/7 as an employee and as a parent, you'll just burn out, both of you will need time for yourselves, so you should work something out - maybe kid duty is entirely on him Saturday morning so you can do your own thing, and Sunday morning is on you so he can enjoy some time for himself. The ''work as a team'' thing applies here too, things are not going to work out if one person is looking out for themselves, you, and the kids, and the other person is mostly looking out for themselves and everyone else is an afterthought.

TSquaredRecovers · 2023-12-09T20:14:28+00:00

I never wanted to be a stay-at-home mom for two reasons: I didn’t want to give up the career I worked so hard for, and being financially dependent on another person seemed far too risky.

So, when my son was little, I chose to continue working full-time. At first, I worked an office job, and between the commute to work and daycare and everything else, that was a bit stressful. But I’d still do it again.

After a year and a half, I went into freelancing and worked full-time from home. I work in academic publishing, and I ended up making more money through contracts with various publishers. That arrangement was very ideal because I no longer had a long commute and I could pretty much work a schedule of my own choosing.

So, I would say working from home is the most ideal situation for a married mother.

januaryphilosopher · 2023-12-09T16:06:24+00:00

Actually sharing responsibility if you say you're sharing it for a start. If you want your partner to be earning, you're not also expecting them to be quitting work for years to do childcare, you're finding an equal solution. You're not expecting one person to do it all while the other does only some.

2023-12-09T16:54:18+00:00

You cannot talk about the ideal relationship without talking about the ideal society. In my ideal society social necessities such as housing and food are taken care of by government given the individual works to their best ability. People would also be working fewer hours. Careerism would die as people would not center their whole life on their jobs. Drugs and Alcohol would be banned for better things that helps people relax and alleviate stress.

So how would romantic relationship work in my ideal society. In school kids will learn healthy relationship skills and mental health skills such as emotional regulation skills that will help be better people. Also sex would be seen as a romantic activity exclusively like kissing to differentiate romance and freindship.Basically people would "date" one person at a time with intention of marriage. If it does not work out they break up and find someone else.

They would repeat this process until they find the one. Marriage in this world is not a legal or financial contract but a romantic declaration of life long partner. Usually occurs when two parties are cohabitating. So a woman won't be dependent on husbands labor. But when women is taking care of her child she is given maternity leave and the man is given paternity leave

The couple would have kids early on and their parents and friends would help the couple raise kids. Raising kids wouldn't be seen exclusively as the mother's job. But married women with kids could ask to work less to take care of kids and even work from home sometimes. Men would be doing domestic labor as well as the women.

This was long but this is my ideal. I know I would be called a Taliban for suggesting this ideal from horny people in the comment section but who cares. This is what I believe and there is nothing anyone can do. I hope this gives you insight OP

AdhesivenessLevel379 · 2023-12-09T15:01:36+00:00

I don’t think there is a rigid “ideal” in terms of logistics - everyone’s different.

Ultimately the best relationships are where both people are dedicated to building a good life together, have shared goals and values. Logistics matter a LOT - if one of you wants to live abroad and the other wants to stay in your hometown that’s an issue. How do you manage your finances, how would you want to raise your kids, do you share religious/political beliefs enough it’s not a point of contention.

People get it wrong when they look at relationships/people as “what can I get out of this” and put their ego first. You’re always going to feel short changed and get resentful.

This is the issue with RP men, they view relationship as investments they want the maximum outcome from, not building a relationship where both parties are better off for having eachother.

The guy you’re dating sounds like a piece of work and has openly told you he basically wants a bangmaid.

AFuzzyMuffin · 2023-12-09T15:05:31+00:00

Why do you even think hypergamy is real OP?

wtknight · 2023-12-09T15:40:34+00:00

I think that it's key for a woman to find a man who is willing to support her goals. I don't think that women should settle for men who aren't willing to do this because of these men's own personal beliefs.

MikeArrow · 2023-12-09T21:52:29+00:00

Slightly off topic but: it's hard to imagine wanting to have kids unless you're already wealthy.

AceOfSpadesGymBro3 · 2023-12-09T14:14:29+00:00

I think women should stay in the kitchen where they belong.

AFuzzyMuffin · 2023-12-09T15:09:53+00:00

Op everybody lies. The reasons for divorce is always poor vetting, poor communication skills.

That's always what it comes down to. A real man doesn't let his wife do everything unless he's a full time lawyer and even then he doesn't. A real woman doesn't become resentful being at home and usually the man and wife flip between duties of kid watching.

Either way all of the issues like growing apart or resentment etc comes down to two things communication and poor vetting. People just lie and call it other stuff

Lower-Director1043 · 2023-12-10T02:19:55+00:00

Your problem is that you are an egotistical fuck who cares what other people think ?

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RAZBUNARE761 · 2023-12-09T14:34:40+00:00

In my opinion it depends a lot on the people and their careers and if there are kids involved. With kids I would say the mothers works 2/3 dYs a week, man works 4-5 days depending on where you live and how the money is.

That way you will have the mother raising the kids and time for household chores whiles also having a life/own money without it. The man provides but atill has enough time for his family.

To me thats the best scenario since if they both work kids get dumped and raised by daycare or grandparents, also not enough family time.

If the wife works more and makes more money then she starts to resent the man. In general its not a favourable scenario.

If the way if full time mom she is too dependend on the guy which leads to people bring trapped and dominated completely in some cases so you shouldnt prefer that chance either. Therefore first situation is ideal outcome imo.

bostonstrong1981 · 2023-12-09T16:45:43+00:00

There’s no such thing as an ideal. It depends on what you want and your preferences. I was a SAHM the first year after my first child was born. I found that to be the hardest year of my life. I went back to work full time the next year. For me, it was easier working full time and being pregnant and having a little kid than just being home.

mike-sonko · 2023-12-09T19:09:48+00:00

For the past three years, I thought I discovered the key; I must work to establish passive-income for myself as an entrepreneur (I already have this), so that once I get married and have children, I have money to pay for (at minimum) my own upkeep. That I could have a provider husband, be a present mother during my children's younger years (until they begin school and then maybe I can focus on other small projects), and I wouldn't be completely financially-dependent on my husband. Is this not a solution?

In my opinion, this is a good strategy. Being financially dependent on someone is extremely risky because in the event of divorce, injury, or death of your spouse you will be in a difficult spot especially if you have kids.

He told me that men don't care about a woman's intelligence (ouch!) and that women should not be entrepreneurs. That they are not natural risk-takers?

This dude is talking crazy. Red flags.

What do you think is the ideal scenario for a happy, healthy (non-toxic) relationship and marriage?

There's no one-size fits all. You should find someone whose idea of a relationship is congruent with yours. For instance, sounds like you are looking for a provider. Find someone who is looking to happily take on that role. If you want to be a career-woman, find someone who's ok with that as well. The guy you're talking to seems to have a controlling streak. "Women shouldn't entrepreneurs". What type of nonsense is that?

Hi-Road · 2023-12-09T19:52:40+00:00

I think you should do what you feel the most comfortable with and find a partner that aligns with that. Other people will always have an opinion, should be a non-factor. It seems like you want a more "traditional" marriage, one where you want have to work much and focus on domestic things? You're probably gonna have to find a traditional man who wants traditional gender roles. Very few people actually prefer clocking into a job and working - including, probably, your future husband. Most people in general HAVE to work to support their families. "Doing it all" is life - you may not have to work but don't think your life will ever be perfect

MidoriEgg · 2023-12-09T20:33:20+00:00

I was worried there’d be a link to an mlm at the end of this, I’m glad there’s not.

Finding the right balance in the modern world is difficult, it sounds like you’ve managed to.

relish5k · 2023-12-09T21:19:18+00:00

Ok first off, this guy sounds like a nightmare. So unless he comes with a host of extremely compelling other qualities, I would move on.

But to answer your actual question, what works is different for everyone. And even for the same couple circumstances changed and what did work no longer works.

I will give you my perspective as a pretty happy married mother of 2 young children (3 and 7 months). It’s the same advice I’ll probably give my daughter when she’s older:

marry a man who you really, really like. Genuine attraction is critical. Ideally this man will also be competent, capable and a provider (or someone who shows promise to be a provider if you’re young). Provider can me a lot of things but at the essence it’s gotta be a man who is trustworthy, who has good judgement, who is responsible and “will do what it takes to get the job done.” He should also make you feel protected, safe, and cherished. Physical strength and presence is a nice nice-to-have as well. And this guy ideally Would be someone who genuinely likes and respects women (not just you).
you don’t know how you will react to motherhood, and if it’s possible you should try to give yourself options. You might find it fully enthralling and the thought of leaving your little one in a daycare or with a nanny, even part time, might be so painful that you decide to stay home with them full time. And that’s fine! As long as you can swing it financially it is a perfectly valid option (but for god’s sake you must be married for this to work because otherwise you are too economically vulnerable). Or you might find it chaotic and overstimulating, and find it difficult to make it through the day with any semblance of self care, and miss feeling like an independent human and interacting with other adult humans (and/or want more $$$). In which case, go to work! In my experience the ideal has been working, but reduced hours (I do 30hr work week but I wish I could do 20 or 25). A plurality of mothers to young children when asked say their their ideal is to work part time.
regardless of what you choose, taking care of young kids is crazy. It will be very difficult to take care of yourself (who is watching the kids while you are doing this? Your husband needs time to himself too.) if you have grandparents or family around that can help on weekends it’s a life saver. But there’s a reason that moms have a reputation for looking frumpy, particularly the more children they have.

itm4l2000 · 2023-12-09T23:08:22+00:00

Congrats on this post. Well thought of, thorough and relevant.

I've thought about this too.

My conclusion is the father underates the financial security of his daughters not their husband or partners.

By making her partially not fully financially independent it's makes a woman incentived but also emotionally and potentially financially safe with a man she wants to commit to.

Your approach is flawed because of the time factor involved in education, career development and biological clock demands

Yes, the patriarchy is real and it's moat benevolent form is a loving and emotionally present father.

I feel so sorry for women who don't have they above, they truly are condemed for life.

Once again congrats on the post and I hope this adds to this discussion in a meaningful way and modern women start developing their own cultural attitudes organically and not force-led by a corporate/state agenda to extract productivity and taxes out of women who just want to be loved and be loved.

Wake up from your psychosis modern women!

Spyro7x3 · 2023-12-10T02:34:58+00:00

No I think the guy you dated is an idiot.

I was a commercial fisherman for awhile and spent time in really rural, ethnic and traditional old world communities. It seems that women owning some kind of shop or business is an extremely normal adaptation for even the most traditional peoples every woman married to one of those men had multiple businesses on facebook, Etsy, Ebay whatever it was and did local business.

I think the guy you were dating like most autists takes things to literally, yes extreme intelligence like Newton level is dominated by men but you don't need to be at that level to run a business or do just about anything besides develop rockets and powerplants or something.

Something-bothersome · 2023-12-10T07:08:50+00:00

What works best in a relationship?

Find someone who is hell bent on supporting you to live and achieve your specific best version of life - every experience, every goal, every dream. Make sure that you love and care enough for that person to be able to offer the same.

It will not work out perfectly and there will be rough times because that is the nature of life but you know that this one person is putting their weight and energy behind it as best they can.

There is really no “pill” as such, just range of people in a reasonably unpredictable life in a somewhat unpredictable world.

brufanrayela · 2023-12-10T14:03:27+00:00

He's right.

BioNipple · 2023-12-10T18:43:13+00:00

Women always marry up wtf are you on about...

bluestjuice · 2023-12-11T16:16:01+00:00

I mean, to be entirely honest - I think the ideal is a sort of communal/collectivist rebuild from the ground up that doesn’t put everyone’s financial and familial support on couples.

The basic idea of ‘one of us works for dollars and one of us focuses on the infants and small kids and homefront’ isn’t bad, the bad part is how deeply it gets enmeshed in identity/ideology, and how inflexible our culture and job market is, such that stepping out of career progression for five years handicaps a worker significantly for a very long term.

It could work a lot better in a smallish group of 10-20 adults, so that a proportion of the group could earn income, another proportion could take care of the households, and individuals could rotate in and out of that group based on their inclinations and, presumably, whether they were actually having a baby at that exact moment. Everyone could be contributing in a meaningful capacity and it would be less important exactly which individuals were earners and which weren’t. There could also be an easier management when a romantic relationship ends, because the financial support of any non-earners would be the responsibility of the entirety of the group instead of only by their (now ex-) partner.

Title	What is the ideal? What works best in a relationship?
Author	happytosayhi993
Upvotes	7
Comments	89
Date	December 9, 2023 1:31 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/18edo8x/what_is_the_ideal_what_works_best_in_a/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-is-the-ideal-what-works-best-in-a.1240261 https://theredarchive.com/post/1240261

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