Borrowed this from r/atheism

[–]indpndnt54 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The comments have diverged to talking about atheism, which doesn't seem to be the point here.

OP's point, my guess is, is to use this to illustrate that because many feminists will shut down discussion for the reasons displayed in the picture that feminism is a form of shutting down free thought.

Accepting that this is an over-generalization, it does meet with many of our experiences and encounters with feminism. I imagine the rebuttal for some feminists (as we have seen in that one video where the guy was putting up posters on a construction site wall) is that feelings are just as important, if not more important, than logic and facts (the latter being patriarchal).

My point in saying that is to note that 'free thought' isn't always seen as a good thing by many people (of all ideologies). Only to a rational, scientific mind that places more value on objective and absolute truth does the quote in OP's picture hold any weight.

EDIT: Found the video I was referring to.

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"immune from criticism" means that criticisms are not allowed to be made at all.It's when the act of saying something is what people are critical of, as opposed to turning their criticisms towards what people actually have to say.

There isn't a large push to defend atheism by saying that criticism of atheism is off limits; rather, people are likely to take the criticism and explain why they disagree with it.

Immunity arguments take this form:

that's the thing though. why is it any of your business what another person believes?

they exist for these kind of reasons

when someone finds out i practice a type of reconstructive paganism, and they tell me that i am stupid by default because of this, that bothers me.

So you get arguments that tend towards saying it's wrong to call someone stupid rather than explaining why the person who called someone stupid is wrong.

On the other hand, despite many criticisms of atheists and atheism being made in this thread, no one responding to them has tried to argue that their atheist views should not be questioned. People address points directly and continue the discussion.

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You do care about people's views. You've pointed out several of your concerns in this topic; you can't pretend to be aloof after doing so. It's kind of like when people say "I don't care what people believe as long as they don't huge list of reasons why they care about what people believe goes here". They could just as easily say "I care a great deal about what others believe, and based on those concerns I'd like them to not same list goes here; if they can avoid that, they're all right with me."

And:

i'm just tired of my views being constantly questioned. and not because i can't give answers/have doubts, but because it's tiresome to have to deal with the ridicule.

that's pretty much exactly what I was referring to. You don't like to have your views ridiculed, so you argue for an environment where that ridicule doesn't take place. You're willing to give up the freedom of expression so long as it protects things you believe from criticism and derision.

Whereas others combat claims that their beliefs are ridiculous by explaining why that isn't true. Your saying "I could totally do that too if I wanted" doesn't change the fact that you aren't.

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Not sure you grasp what each term means.

First, everyone is an atheist of one sort or another. Most people don't accept at least one of the million or so gods that have been invented since man starting writing down these myths. A capital 'a' Atheist takes it one god further than most. That is all.

So, if you're a muslim you know what it is like to be an atheist in relation to christianity, and christians like-wise understand what it is like to be an atheist in regard to islam.

So, the second point is, atheism is about asking for the evidence and insisting people have some, besides the overused 'faith', for their positions on political, medical and moral questions. This can seem like atheism has no regard for Christianity, it's ethics or traditions, but you should take a moment and consider what it's like being an atheist and constantly coming into contact with positions people cannot justify, that affects their lives even though they don't hold to these beliefs.

I want stem-cell research, as example, and 'god says no' isn't a proper answer.

And last, most atheist are agnostic, and agnostic is compatible with both atheism and theism. Richard Dawkins is an atheist regarding the god of christian revelation. The bible makes very specific claims about how that god operates, scientific claims, and so the idea can be falsified. That said, a more removed, and refined deistic concept cannot be, and so Dawkins is agnostic on the that question as are most people.

From past experience, I have found religious people take offense when anyone questions their faith in any way. So the idea that atheists are naturally antagonists is somewhat funny. They are, because most religions have some law they should be killed for existing.

[–]DaVincitheReptile1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

They do, and they don't.

As an example, a person might believe the feeling of god is universal, and say that 80 percent of all humans having such a feeling shows that, in fact, god is real, and then hide behind the entire experience being subjective and therefore untestable.

Well, given the above fact, one must conclude a cause exists to explain it that is objective and measurable. So one should look into how this occurs, what mechanisms exist that cause it and so on. In the case above we know how to induce said experience and how to manipulate brains so that such an experience is possible, and reliably.

Just because something is subjective doesn't mean it is wrong, it is a data point. Sadly, many people think their thoughts are factual. It is only through systemic methodologies, falsification and inter-subjective dialog that we can ascertain whether or not those data points are relevant.

Take eye-witness testimony. People can be sure the person they pick out is true. Science tells us people are mistaken and eye-witness testimony is often false. So, one might conclude everyone thinks they are a liar when they pick someone out for a crime, when what is happening is our expectations of getting a false-positive are raised without judging the moral ethics of the person providing the data point.

Of course, this offends many people who view this as reductionist, but then romance doesn't tell us whether or not something is false.

[–]DaVincitheReptile-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You're right, atheism is better defined as the lack of belief in a deity. When I used the term, I was referring moreso to the general attitude of the movement, which is not a passive "lack of belief" but rather an attack on all those with belief.

I disagree about faith being the "single greatest evil". You're talking about the cultural "faith" which is associated with organized religion. I'm talking about "faith" as in what it actually is before it's corrupted by cultural influences (i.e. blindly religious dogmatists).

And, it's not at all exclusive to religious people, to be dogmatically faithful. That is my point. Each of us exercises faith every single day. I'm sorry if you can't disconnect the basic meaning of the word from the cultural definition.

I think if you really truly consider what the single greatest evil on the planet is, it's not going to be an abstract concept. It seems a scientifically oriented person would recognize the primacy of the clashing of material bodies over abstract thoughts... I don't think you can extrapolate that faith is evil simply because a lot of people who are faithful commit acts which you perceive as evil.

[–]AustinBarnes6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Faith is belief without proof/evidence, although I am hesitant to use the word belief because it is usually conflated with faith.

This was the context I was using when I said faith was evil. I cannot imagine a single possible scenario where having faith could possibly considered anything but a horrible trait. No one should ever believe something without evidence.

For example, I generally think that there is intelligent life somewhere in the universe. Given the age and size of the universe and what I know of the biological processes which drive life I would be extremely surprised if we were the only intelligent life in the entire universe. That being said, I will not state my belief as a fact and I will change my belief if evidence proves my belief wrong. I do not have faith that there is alien life out there, I suspect alien life exists based on the data available to me at this time.

People should

[–]DaVincitheReptile1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]kencabbit2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I didn't downvote but I'll give it a go:

You can look at outcomes that occur when you inform your actions with evidence versus outcomes that occur when actions are informed by beliefs lacking evidence to support them.

Actually proving the utility of the quoted claim with clear evidence would involve some kind of experiment -- but such an experiment would be hard to design and control in a way that had no bias in its construction.

We can instead fall back on the slightly less reliable evidence of personal experience and observation, and some common sense reason applied to that. When things have evidence to support them they are generally speaking more likely to be true. Actions based on beliefs that are true are more likely to have beneficial outcomes than actions that are based in falsehoods.

For example, if I believe there is a dragon outside my door I may never go outside. If I demand evidence I might conclude that no, there is no dragon outside my door, and as such I'll get to enjoy the sunshine.

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[–]sorunx8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No Just saying, welcome to science.

You are not a scientist.

I disagree science is mostly wrong and always has been ask Aristotle, Galileo, Newton or Einstein

Or I could listen to the people alive today that are just as smart and as capable as them.

This is something you philosophy people net to get your heads around. Just because people were a big deal 200 years ago, or even 50 years ago, does not mean they would be that significant today.

I'm certain over a million "Einsteins" exist today, and they are all operating within the paradigm of the idea that they "know" nothing. This is why science holds the position that it is impossible to prove a theory because it would require universal omniscience.

Here is the case though:

Science thus far has proven to be the only reliable means of acquiring knowledge, if a better method would produce itself through repeatable results, said method would become science.

This means the problem of induction is a moot point, in fact it only shows to highlight just how reliable science is, for if it were ever shown that our current methods were unreliable, science would change.

Science is not just a matter of reading textbooks and trusting them, that is philosophy, or other methods of hard fact study. Science is a personal relationship with reality.

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to say that religion does not adapt is a bit fallacious, modern understandings of christianity are significantly different than common understandings held even fifty years ago (I use christianity as it is the religion I am most familiar with), several centuries ago the church held many false beliefs (notably the sun revolving the earth) which very few people today (if any) still hold. Evolution is another example of religous adaptation. Sure many fundamentalists (really conservative christians in general) hold intelligent design as the end all be all of earth's creatuon. However there are also many "progressive " christians who believe in evolution and can see how it fits in within their personal faith. Religon constantly evolves, the only true constant (this is christian centric but applies in general to most world religons) is a single book that has a ridiculous amount of different translations some of which have sognificantly different meanings for different passages. This means that everything that christians believe is based of off a book widely considered to he non-literal creating an obscene number of interperatations and justifications that are often changed to accomadate new scientific and social understandings.
TL:DR- religous belifs are constantly evolving.

Also, sorry for the typos, it's a pain in the ass to fix things on decently long posts

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People care less about what you believe as much as they care about what you try and DO with those beliefs. If you want to believe in an all knowing all seeing god, or a flying spaghetti monster, or a magic gnome who lives under a rock in your backyard who whispers secret words in your ear then by all means go ahead.

But when you try and use those words and beliefs to control the lives, actions and freedoms of others, that is when you can expect both push back and people to want you to justify and prove to them why they should live by your "beliefs".

I am an atheist, I do not believe in a god. That doesn't mean there isn't something out there, I just don't have sufficient direct evidence of it to convince me, but that doesn't mean that I don't think you should be allowed your own opinion. And I would fight to safe guard your right to believe as you wish. Just don't try and force me or my family to live by your beliefs.

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Well, it kind of does because he was discussing islam at the time, here is the full quote:

"At Cambridge University I was taught a laudable method of argument: you never personalise, but you have absolutely no respect for people’s opinions. You are never rude to the person, but you can be savagely rude about what the person thinks. That seems to me a crucial distinction: people must be protected from discrimination by virtue of their race, but you cannot ring-fence their ideas. The moment you say that any idea system is sacred, whether it’s a religious belief system or a secular ideology, the moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." http://www.opendemocracy.net/faith-europe_islam/article_2331.jsp

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My religion does none of those things, it's just accused of them by you. I joined here mostly so I could unsubscribe because of the constant hate and derision that plagues the front page. I find your beliefs as silly and lacking in evidence as those whom all this plethora of hate is spewed apon, that is an opinion that I was asked in a non-atheist forum to expound apon and I have, and have been treated with derision and contempt which is very typical of all true believers as the OP suggests. I disagree that atheists haven't been responsible for atheist-faith generated genocide, Stalin and Mao come to mind right quick as recent examples. And as far as homosexual rights I believe Vietnam and China are still quite atheist, though I'm not positive of their exact religious stance, what are their homosexual rights like? Not 100% but I believe poor, though I'll grant you perhaps not Iran.

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So many strawmen. Where to begin?

I find your beliefs as silly and lacking in evidence as those whom all this plethora of hate is spewed apon

If by this you mean my stance that God probably doesn't exist, it's not only backed by evidence (or more accurately, the lack of evidence for the existence of God), it's also the rational position. You do it every day with regards to your beliefs about unicorns and Santa Claus. God's existence has precisely the same amount of evidence as Santa Claus', but I'd wager you're fairly confident the latter is fictional.

I disagree that atheists haven't been responsible for atheist-faith generated genocide, Stalin and Mao come to mind right quick as recent examples

These weren't atheism-belief driven genocides. They were authoritarian-driven genocides. For the sake of power. If I were to go shoot up a church today because I hated believers, that would be an atheism-driven homicide. As it stands, Stalin's (and Pot's) genocide is no more motivated by his atheism than it is his mustache. That he was an atheist is incidental, like his having a mustache.

While China and Vietnam fare poorly for homosexual rights, globally homosexual repression directly correlates with religiosity (PDF warning, go to page 33 for the relevant bit).

You didn't indicate which religion you follow, so if you're not one of the oppressive ones (namely, the Abrahamic religions) I apologize, none of this is targeted at you. If you are a Christian, as I suspect, you're simply in denial because you have it imprinted that Christians do good to one another, as Jesus dictates, and take it as fact without questioning it. You ignore how this is nearly universally ignored.

Religion is not a force of good. At best it's a silly harmless practice, but in most cases it causes human misery.

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Can we do better than to simply call posters like this a troll, guys?

I don't believe in atheism anymore. Though it's rational and likely the truth

Atheism is simply a lack of belief. There's nothing to belief in. It's a stance, not a truth. Truth defines if the stance is correct or not. It doesn't require rational. Rationality may lead one to reject a god-idea but is not required to lack it.

it's not going to help curtail sluts and the way they erode the family and in general corrupt society

I don't understand what that has to do with anything. Nor do I believe it correct to blame sluts for societal corruption. Nor do I see family as necessarily a thing to defend.

It's a little bit like not picking a side too and just being on the fence

How? 'No gods' is far more of a side than and 'one god' stance IMO.

I for one will study Arabic and Islam or potentially Hebrew and the way of the orthodox Jew.

Implying atheists do not study the culture or history or religion of the three major Abrahamic faiths they reject.

Don't believe in any of the superstition, but society needs ground rules

We have those, they're called laws, and we don't need religion for them.

that govern the behavior of women lest they run rampant in society and just pump out kids left and right. Tradition keeps things in order.

Religious tradition fails to control birth rates, if anything they are engineered to maximize them by glorifying children and parents. Curbing birth rates could be done simply by not coddling those who reproduce irresponsibly and holding them (the women) responsible for that choice.

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Title	Borrowed this from r/atheism
Author	gwolf100
Upvotes	503
Comments	235
Date	January 27, 2013 5:30 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/17dj70/borrowed-this-from-ratheism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/borrowed-this-from-ratheism.1604982 https://theredarchive.com/post/1604982

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