direct Qs about "sexual harrassment" and beliefs

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2017-12-08T19:14:51+00:00

EXACTLY how do NON CRIMINALLY CHARGED allegations of "sexual assault" work?

Normally, the woman tells her friends that you sexually harassed or assaulted her. That's it. But, there are more repercussions than you realize. Having the stigma of sexual harassment or assault being attached to your name is a big deal in certain areas. Specifically, in smaller towns and college campuses. Word travels quickly.

where are they publicized, who cares, and what are the ramifications

They're usually 'publicized' by word of mouth, although occasionally women air the grievances on Facebook. Again, this may be a big deal, depending on how closely-knit the surrounding social environment is.

figthief · 2017-12-08T19:07:44+00:00

I have not seen this playing out in any way IRL where actual consequences are likely.

Women will call men who make unwanted advances creepy. Outside of a closed peer group like a school or a work place this matters not one iota. Anybody who fears being seen as creepy to the point where it inhibits normal social behavior probably also has a number of social fears.

I have never seen or heard of anybody being legally pursued or fired over making somebody uncomfortable or even touching them at the holiday party or whatever. And these sort of conversations circulate through the female social matrix all the time without this ever happening The "accused" loses social perception, and nothing else.

Here's a related story: A friend of mine dates men and women, but hadn't started dating men until after college. He mentioned at a party in front of a group of men and women that one time he was hooking up with a guy from some app and when the two of them were escalating sexually, the guy grabbed his head and pushed it into his crotch. Several of the women who had more casual sex experience LAUGHED and said this happened to them a number of times, not that they liked it, not that sexual activity continued after, but it happened when they met random men and they hated it, but were used to it. Everyone agreed it was deeply offensive but there was zero mention of law enforcement.

blackedoutfast · 2017-12-08T20:23:35+00:00

non-hypothetical, non-speculative personal experience:

i was on a date with a girl and everything was going well. then i got drunk, got a little too handsy and ignored her polite "no, stop that" one too many times. she started screaming at me in the middle of a crowded sidewalk. a couple of white knights suddenly appeared and asked if m'lady was ok. she said yes it was fine. then we got cabs and went home.

next day she called me to apologize for yelling at me. and i apologized for being a dumbass. that was pretty much it.

we are still friends and whenever that night comes up in conversation she just rolls her eyes and laughs about it.

says_harsh_things · 2017-12-08T20:10:08+00:00

this is not a big COLLEGE CAMPUS

I think this is the heart of the disconnect. Reddit (in general) skews to a younger age crowd, typically high school and college. Not everyone on here is that young, but it trends that way.

These are people that have lived their entire lives under the umbrella of authority, be it parents or the school administration. There is always some overseeing body to make a complaint to.

It doesn't work that way out in the real world.

WhiskersNT · 2017-12-08T18:37:36+00:00

I always assumed they were talking about social and reputational damage, being viewed as a bad person or socially excluded, gossiped about, etc

Another possibility is that they really drank the Kool aid during HR training and thought “wow these workplace rules seem to be a great basis for a personal code of conduct, I’ll adopt this in my own life, and hold myself and others to these standards.”

Butt-Factory · 2017-12-08T19:35:00+00:00

I can only speak from my personal experience and the actions I chose to take.

I experienced sexual harassment and groping in the workplace by my superior when I was in my early twenties. I ran away as soon as I could, left work, and called his boss for a meeting the following day. I told him what happened and told him I wouldn't be returning to work. His response was basically "Oh ya Mark can be a real weirdo. Sorry about that". I wasn't expecting him to face consequences, and he didn't.

This was a very desirable and competitive job with dozens lined up to take my place. I told all the people I knew who were considering applying what happened, so they could be aware of potential danger. I was in a locally popular band at the time, so word spread pretty quickly and it was a bit of hot gossip for awhile. The business suffered. This was about 12ish years ago, so before social media was what it is today. I don't know that I would have posted about it, but I think it would have been justified. I guess he had a bit of a reputation before that, but I hadn't been aware. I feel satisfied with my actions.

When I was sexually assaulted walking home from the bus stop, I called the police and he was arrested and convicted, and went to prison. I didn't know this guy so I have no idea what his reputation was.

gasparddelanuit · 2017-12-08T20:02:23+00:00

It’s not just about sexual harassment, but all possible sexual crimes against women, such as rape and sexual assault.

Regular everyday men do not want to be accused of any sexual crime against women, especially in the McCarthyism-like climate we are currently experiencing, where infractions and accusations are being completely blown out of all proportion.

Given the ever expanding definition for what qualifies as rape, sexual harassment or sexual assault, the ambiguity surrounding these definitions, the comparative disregard that society has for male suffering or miscarriages of justice that adversely affect men, the increasing misandry in society, the insidious and false narrative that depicts men as oppressors of women, the cultural and legal persecution of men and masculinity, as well as the capacity of women to weaponize and abuse this climate to punish men if they don’t get what they want or feel that they deserve, it makes sense that men will experience apprehension and concern about their interactions with women.

Men are not omniscient or clairvoyant. They have no ability to guarantee or categorically foresee where all seemingly innocuous interactions with women may lead. The law is open to interpretation and morphs as new situations arise. The criminal justice system can misapply the law. Women can abuse it and lie. Any number of deficiencies can occur in the chain of events that see a man’s seemingly benign interaction with a woman end in his life being ruined. Even if one were prepared to endure the social embarrassment and devastation of an accusation of sexual misbehaviour, one cannot take for granted that the law would be applied perfectly to arrive at justice. Even if it acquitted an innocent man, the psychological damage would likely be irreparable, as well the social stigma for being involved in such a case in the first place.

The situation is not a joke for men. See what happened to everyday regular man, Mark Pearson, when he bypassed a woman unknown to him on the underground.

Mark Pearson Interview at ICMI 2016, London

Even women are telling their boyfriends and husbands to be careful around women from now on.

I don’t know what planet you are living on if you think that men should be totally unconcerned.

prodigy2throw · 2017-12-08T21:05:19+00:00

Dude gets fired and company gets sued and settles out of court. In Canada it’s probably a human rights violation and hoes through a separate kangaroo court for extra money.
If it’s a high ranking person or the victim feels vengeful the news will care as will help and other social media.

sunkindonut149 · 2017-12-08T19:48:04+00:00

During the '90s when I first heard the feminist hue and cry about "sexual harassment", it specifically only related to jobs. Some thirsty guy being creepy on a date is just thirsty and desperate.

I'm pretty surprised to hear the "sexual harassment" remark has made a comeback. It sounds like the "campus rape" group has just graduated and has now taken up the torch for a new generation of sexual harassment accusations.

Mr_Smoogs · 2017-12-08T18:43:09+00:00

I think the problem that many men are having today is separating women as independent and professional agents from women responding to something sexual. Treating women in the workplace or in platonic social circles the same as you would treat a man is good and all, but it is not necessarily going to turn them on.

Feminists have a huge problem with this (what women respond to sexually) and try to hide it or sweep it under the rug.

For me, it was always a relief when women strongly pursued me. It meant that I didn't have to take the risk of receiving mixed signals and therefore making an unwanted move. Unfortunately, many women don't find it particularly sexy to be in that role. Also, when women approach men, the perception men have is that she only wants sex and are free to use her for it.

What we are seeing today is a consequence of the conflicting messages women are giving. Is it possible to have a feminist female-submissive heterosexual relationship? Or are those things inherently contradictory? Can we truly separate the bedroom from society? Is the way you fuck and how you are turned on "private," apolitical, or outside the realm of critique?

Sex negative feminists would say that feminist heterosexuality is possible when women initiate. This is obviously problematic because female sexuality has a problem with being turned on when women lead.

So, leaning in for a first kiss without her verbal consent is technically sexual assault or at least harassment. However, it is typically the responsibly of men to read her body language and make that first move. Women's body language will typically be the cue that invites you to make a sexual advance on her. So basically women ask to be sexually assaulted. This, for obvious reasons, is problematic for feminists to talk about.

E: Basically, will women ever be attracted to the effeminate gay personality? (Current research suggests that the gender inversion hypothesis-that gay men's traits tend to be somewhat feminized and that lesbians' traits tend to be somewhat masculinized-is strongly supported.) I would argue, no. Women are too biologically attracted to masculinity for them ever to be attracted to the effeminate gay male personality. Especially so for the personality traits associated with testosterone.

This poses a clear problem for feminists and why they have recently split into sex positive and sex negative.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2017-12-08T19:19:00+00:00

also, bonus Q, do you all understand that there is no jurisdiction int he US in which sexual ASSAULT AND BATTERY are not specific intent crimes that involve FORCE or RESTRAINT? you cannot ACCIDENTALLY assault or batter someone CRIMINALLY, this is not a big COLLEGE CAMPUS

Yes, I understand this.

But what you're missing is that a woman can just go to the cops and swear out a complaint, resulting in police hassling you about what is basically you trying and failing to get laid because you misread the signs or fucked up during the date. And she can do this just to fuck with you.

And because your actions might technically meet the definition of an assault and battery - putting someone in immediate fear of an unwanted or offensive touching, and an actual unwanted or offensive touching. Going in for the kiss - immediate fear of unwanted or offensive touching. Actually pulling her in while going for the kiss - unwanted or offensive touching. (Note that the reason it's "unwanted or offensive" is because you're unattractive, making it now illegal to be unattractive or do something unattractive on a date.)

Same thing with your employer - if you pissed her off enough she'll just contact your employer and tell them all about your bad behavior during your off time. And then it'll be

"Jesus Lewis what the fuck? Why are you acting like this? I've got some nutso broad calling me out of the blue about what an asshole you are on your off time. I even have an email from her reporting to me about your date and talking about what happened on the date. I can't have this. Stop doing that. I don't want to get calls or emails from women about what you do on your off time. Stop this shit right now and if it becomes a problem I'm going to have to do something about it."

The clear import of that is that if you as an employee become more trouble than you're worth because of your outside of work activities, you're going to pay a price for it.

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wekacuck · 2017-12-08T18:49:28+00:00

The police don't investigate and/or the prosecutors drop the case.
Ramifications are that victims of assault don't get justice.

darla10 · 2017-12-08T18:52:47+00:00

In my opinion, examples of ‘non criminally charged’ sexual assault are instances of NEAR rape that didn’t get reported. For instance....a man on a date with a woman uses force in some way to restrain or subdue the woman then performs sexual acts short of penetration. But I’m not 100% sure if this is what you’re asking.

Alth12 · 2017-12-08T20:09:30+00:00

I think it best to look at it from a detached point of view. This may be convuluted but bare with me.

In the corporate world there are many types of risk. One that ties in here is financial risk. So you think of Deutsche Bank. They were investigated and found guilty of assisting in money laundering. They had heavy fines etc levied against them. That's a financial loss. But long term another type of risk hurts them more. Reputational risk. Their standing among the business and public is heavily damaged and that's far more important to them than any short term financial penalty. The thing with reputational risk is it actually heavily influences other forms of risk. It's why companies spend millions on PR.

It's the same for men in these situations. The risk to their reputation, how people around them view them is far more important than any potential short term financial effects. So people think 'she said you touched her inappropriately and you got thrown out of your favourite bar, so what?' but it's more than that. Humans are social and tribal creatures, as much as we love saying we don't give a shit what people think, we'd realize how much we do if people important or in close proximity to us started treating us differently one day. Social ostracism is the worst thing you can inflict on a human being.

Thanks to social media as well we're seeing the world is smaller than we think. So of that won an decides to make a Facebook post about it, even in a city it's goi g to hit people you know eventually if it's shared of liked enough.

Taipanshimshon · 2017-12-09T11:47:38+00:00

It’s as though you don’t understand how reputations are affected by people talking. And while not criminal - how having a particular reputation - “character witnesses” - can and do affect any possible future criminal investigation.

SlimLovin · 2017-12-09T13:19:58+00:00

Oh Jesus. The paranoia is so real. Here’s an RP thread from six hours ago:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/7ilb70/dark_times_for_some_of_us_were_already_fucked/?st=JAZD94TY&sh=8cd0be8f

These guys WANT to be victims. It’s the most bizarre shit on earth

Dmva100 · 2017-12-09T14:52:32+00:00

The goal of over broadening the definition of sexual assault, is to ruin the reputations of men to keep them from obtaining high status positions in the workplace, politics etc., or removing them from such positions.

This is especially true on college campuses. If a girl tells a college counselor a guy looked at her the wrong way, they can suspend him, tarnish his record before he can graduate , and he won't get that STEM job he was going for, and that position just MIGHT be available for the women now!

If women can't use the pleasure of sex to sway the men of power, they will instead use it as a badge of victimhood to tear them down, true or not. The women who shame anyone who dare question something 'awful' as unwanted sexual advances, contact, etc. are those who fear the loss of power from such accusations. Odds are those women are ham planets that cannot secure the men they want. The men who stand behind the women on such issues are just beta cucks looking for a whiff of poon by conforming to feminist propaganda and being PC.

We are seeing a change in how sex is used for power. The less incentive for men to commit to women (marriage) the more incentive women will have to use sex as a reputation destruction tool as an effort to weaponize sex by using the law in a different way. Choose committment and or marriage for legal provisioning for your woman, or go to jail and lose everything you work for in your life that you refuse to give to women

despisedlove2 · 2017-12-09T18:13:18+00:00

Somewhat relevant to this discussion:

https://youtu.be/od4iQGLaa98

caesarfecit · 2017-12-08T18:52:37+00:00

Preach, Atlas.

I think one thing we all need to understand is that shaming someone over their sex life is a political weapon that's older than dirt (there were sex scandals back in Ancient Rome ffs). Both in large-scale politics and small-scale.

The reason why is this: when someone (regardless of gender) is called out over their sex life (whether they deserve it or not), it's almost impossible to defend yourself (unless somebody is telling very sloppy lies). Nobody is 100% unashamed of their sex life, not even porn stars. Hell sex scandals are present in porn too (James Deen). Add into that the fact that sex takes place behind closed doors and is naturally rife with he-said-she-said, and you have a surefire weapon against almost anyone. Julius Caesar even divorced one of his wives over a sex scandal, even though everybody knew she was innocent.

This has reached a particularly toxic fever pitch in today's day and age as the feminists have realized the latent power of sexual accusations and their inherent ambiguity. We see them coming from a mile away, we've all heard their talking points and pretensions, and yet it almost always works flawlessly. In fact the only times in recent history where I've seen sexual smear campaigns fail are Bill Clinton and Donald Trump. The first was because the feminists (and the media) openly ran interference for Clinton and the Republicans overplayed their hand. The second was because Trump had too much pride to be shamed, and the Democrats were throwing stones while living in a glass house.

Now, to respond to OP's questions directly:

EXACTLY how do NON CRIMINALLY CHARGED allegations of "sexual assault" work?

It's trial by public opinion, plain and simple. Because sexual allegations are almost always he-said-she-said, people can believe what they want to believe, and the accusing party is free to exaggerate and dissemble and even if the other party denies said exaggerations, it's still just duelling credibility and that's open to political manipulation (that's what "believe the victim" is really about).

where are they publicized, who cares, and what are the ramifications

On the small-scale, word of mouth and gossip. On the large scale, same thing, except through the media. And everyone cares to some extent. Sexual allegations are salacious and juicy gossip, especially if someone has developed a reputation, positive or negative. Not to mention, socially prominent men and women tend to have high sex drives and therefore lots of sexual loose ends, even if there's nothing untoward.

Now, as people throwing around terms like sexual harassment and sexual assault, I'll say this. I have no respect for people who contaminate sex with extortion or coercion. Sex that happens under coercive circumstances is the literal definition of rape. But people who throw around terms like sexual harrassment/assault frivolously are morally just as bad in my opinion. Instead of using power to get sex, they're using sex to get power.

Which brings me to my last point. This shit will never stop unless women put a stop to it. It's up to women to set their own personal boundaries, enforce them, and take responsibility for what they allow men to do with them. A refusal to make a choice is still a choice. And I certainly hope that we've reached a point where we can say without controversy that personal responsibility, especially where sex is concerned, applies to both genders. And it is in women's own best interest to stop the frivolous accusations, because one day it might by their turn to seek justice and every overblown accusation, every exposed smear, every lynch mob stirred up against innocent men makes it just that much harder for legitimate victims to come forward and be heard.

Electra_Cute · 2017-12-08T18:57:24+00:00

In theory, if a female was sexually harassed on a date she could go authorities and file for sexual harassment, it is technically against the law and the authorities could get involved, it could even get to court. I would surmise it would be laughed out of a courtroom however.

[deleted] · 2017-12-08T19:11:14+00:00

1.EXACTLY how do NON CRIMINALLY CHARGED allegations of "sexual assault" work?

Man makes unwanted advance on date. Says (or more usually, does) something she doesn't like. Usually it's awkward, clumsy sexual escalation. The date ends abruptly and uncomfortably.

This is almost always the situation in which what these guys (including me) are talking about.

2.where are they publicized, who cares, and what are the ramifications

She talks shit about him to pretty much anyone who'll listen. He loses social standing and gets a reputation as a creep/weirdo/freak/nerd/sexual illiterate.

Worst case scenario is that she reports the guy and swears out a police complaint claiming assault. The cops talk to him, nothing ever comes of it because it's he said she said, no sex ever happened so it's not rape, and it all just quietly dies down. Even if he does get charged it's a weak as shit case, he pleads it down to disorderly conduct and pays a fine.

Or, slightly less bad, she tells his employer and his employer jams him up (which I've seen only once, and he got a talking to because he's a relatively high profile lawyer).

Noxin__Nixon · 2017-12-08T23:28:49+00:00

All the bolds and caps make this hard to read. If you just wrote normally it would be far more readable.

I am not really sure what your point is. That Roy Moore taking a 14 year old to a cabin as a 30 year old and coercing her into sexual acts is not sexual harassment? That Franken groping random women is okay? So if you get groped by a stranger its not harassment to you if its not at work? Do you like being groped by strangers?

sublimemongrel · 2017-12-08T19:08:52+00:00

Lol this is hilarious.

anon1moos · 2017-12-09T05:51:48+00:00

His name is Albert Franklin

direct Qs about "sexual harrassment" and beliefs

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Title	direct Qs about "sexual harrassment" and beliefs
Author	Atlas_B_Shruggin
Upvotes	14
Comments	330
Date	December 8, 2017 6:14 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/7igsr4/direct_qs_about_sexual_harrassment_and_beliefs/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/direct-qs-about-sexual-harrassment-and-beliefs.264555 https://theredarchive.com/post/264555