Understanding The Red Pill

lady_baker · 2016-06-07T13:26:01+00:00

I recommend that you remember (1) we took away mens' spaces, almost entirely, and (2) you are hearing a combination of locker room talk, rage, sadness, teen bravado, and wisdom with an absence of sugarcoating, in a place that the men who are missing those spaces have almost been herded to. Consider that the current real life environment is trending more towards saving feelings at all costs, rather than objective reality. You just aren't used to hearing angry men speak without having to worry about girls' feelings.

As for women - yes, there is some actual misogyny happening (so what? That's another issue.) There is a lot more realization that feminine qualities are not negative, and the push to have women behave the same as men is not working for some of us. Headship or dominance has been turned into a dirty word, but in order to understand RPW/RPWi, you have to throw out that mindset.

It is not less than. It is not worse. It makes us happy, and it strengthens bonds. In my case, it was like paddling ashore after struggling against the waves for the first years of our marriage.

The last thing I want to respond to is the notion that people should love you for who you are. What you are really saying is that you don't need to work on yourself, self improvement is somehow bad (because we wouldn't want to do something to please anyone besides MEMEME!) and your partner doesn't deserve your best effort. That is the subcontext out there in our world, and it leads directly to serial boyfriends/girlfriends, divorces and lonely old people.

When you partner off, you need to love them for who they are when you meet them, yes. That isn't enough, though. To go the distance, you each need to be working on yourself. Admitting that you have flaws instead of shrieking "I won't change for no one." Prioritizing their happiness. Remember the old adage "it is better to give than to receive?"

[deleted] · 2016-06-07T16:12:32+00:00

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ThirdEyeSqueegeed · 2016-06-07T13:53:21+00:00

Welcome to PPD. We get these kinds of posts on a semi-regular basis. Someone new to TRP comes on here to tell us all how wrong we are, etc. so you'll understand if some of the comments you receive are not the most welcoming.

Your idea of how relationships should be is idealistic but not realistic. Most men who come to TRP have tried to find a woman who will love and accept them for who they are and have found themselves alone.

In the animal kingdom, males compete and females select. Sexual selection is harsh and unforgiving for males, but as a woman you will never have to experience that. Hence, it's very difficult for you to truly empathise with the male experience. If you stick around, keep an open mind and ask questions you might learn a few things though.

Just to point out though, if you're going to stick around none of us really give a shit if you're offended. We're not here to spare people's feelings, so feel free to be as offensive as you want, but understand that simply telling the truth is offensive to some people.

UA_Hammer · 2016-06-07T14:08:17+00:00

The core of feminism is not about people having equal or more rights, its about changing the way people think about and view women in general.

Mission accomplished. A decade plus of a total stranglehold on majority narrative and what did we get? Safe spaces, trigglypuff, trans bathroom crisis, massive spike in false rape accusations, normalization of open relationships. What a disaster. I hope you enjoyed driving because the adults are taking the keys to the car back

prodigy2throw · 2016-06-07T14:43:50+00:00

Acknowledging men and women as different isn't saying they are not equal. This is the mistake you are making

stats135 · 2016-06-07T16:47:25+00:00

For such a long post, I really only derived three main points from it.

Firstly you seem to think that TRP views women as "less value," and this is simply not true. Men are better at being men and women are better than being women. I would choose a women over a men at child-rearing and a man over a women for being a corporate slave. It is only that feminism, with its grass greener on the other side mentality, keeps feeding the lie that working and being a corporate slave is somehow "fulfilling" and "valuable" than child-rearing.

Secondly, you seem to think that TRP view sluts as less valuable and male-equivalents as more valuable. Again, this is not true. Look, if I had a son, I would want him to marry a woman that is a virgin, young, and conforms to traditional gender roles. But guess what? If I had a daughter, I would just as much want her to marry a man that is a virgin, young, and conforms to traditional gender roles. I believe that young, virgins, that conform to traditional gender roles are best regardless of gender. The problem is that women do not think like this. Men judge women and women judge men. There is no double standard. The judge isn't the same.

Thirdly, you stated your beliefs about what relationships SHOULD be. This view is inherently flawed. The very ideology of romanticism is actually a very new concept for the upper class to begin with and the way you talk about it is very Hollywood. Things like practicality, sex, and money don't just work themselves out. And many times, its going to come at the expense of feeelz and emotions.

bergkampinthesheets · 2016-06-07T17:50:55+00:00

You're looking at ideas from a pessimistic point of view.

You complain about feminism and how it has destroyed our world but just the way you view women as not your equals is the exact reason feminism exists in the first place.

The complain is about 3rd wave feminism only, where feminism is politicized to gain unfair power over men. (divorce rape, campus laws, rape culture is a thing, no men's rights, child custody laws, being falsely accused of rape can get you fired from your company without even need proof etc.). Nobody has a problem with women having equal rights. e.g support for women's equality in middle eastern countries.

but when a woman sleeps around, she's a slut and she's not as 'valuable' as a woman who perhaps would not be so 'easy' or doesn't sleep around as much

It's easy to be a slut, its not easy being a stud. Women are the gatekeepers of sex and men are the gatekeepers of commitment. If a man gave away his commitment often and without discernment, he would be slut too. This explains it perfectly

And red pill women, you think that you have to change yourself so that men like you more and want to have long term relationships with you

And whats wrong with that? TRP teaches men to work out, to be stoic and look at things pragmatically so as to make good decisions, to not be needy, to be independent. How is improving yourself to have a better chance in a relationship a bad thing?

Its about the emotion behind the relationship being stronger than the qualities that people possess. It's like you're changing the entire reason behind a relationship. The goal of a relationship should not be the best breed of babies and mating. It should be wanting to spend your life with someone you love and have them love you back for who you are

Love and attraction creates a relationship but is not sufficient to sustain it. Being practical to sustain a relationship doesn't mean that you assume it was purely based on the purpose of producing the best breed of babies.

ppdthrowawai · 2016-06-07T17:58:07+00:00

You complain about feminism and how it has destroyed our world but just the way you view women as not your equals is the exact reason feminism exists in the first place.

This is one place where I think feminism is fundamentally wrong and thus, so misguided. Men and women aren't equal but complimentary. There is a big difference between inferior and just plain different.

The core of feminism is not about people having equal or more rights, its about changing the way people think about and view women in general.

This isn't really consistent with feminist organizations which use exaggerations and statistical gymnastics to argue in favor of gender bias. It's a power grabbing political movement, like many others.

I mean, the red pill men, I really don't get it, you think its okay for you to sleep around but when a woman sleeps around, she's a slut and she's not as 'valuable' as a woman who perhaps would not be so 'easy' or doesn't sleep around as much.

There are many different types of RPers, some interested in long term relationships and some interested in casual sex. And women being held to a different standard than men when it comes to sex is hardly exclusive to RP. See this thread just today on askmen: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/4mvicw/why_is_a_womans_sexual_history_so_goddamn/

red pill women, you think that you have to change yourself so that men like you more and want to have long term relationships with you, but that's not the basis of a relationship. A relationship should be about two people having feelings for each other and making it work with each other regardless of what they want to change in each other and their differences. Its about the emotion behind the relationship being stronger than the qualities that people possess. It's like you're changing the entire reason behind a relationship. The goal of a relationship should not be the best breed of babies and mating. It should be wanting to spend your life with someone you love and have them love you back for who you are. I don't know, I feel like you people don't have as much self respect, as women.

I won't get too into this as I'm sure others will address it better, but I've dated a couple of naggy women and RPW are pretty on the money with their list of attractive and unattractive qualities that I would see in a long term mate. Funny enough, these qualities are completely independent of "love". You can love someone horrible, think of how common that is. Loving them more doesn't make the relationship any less shitty.

And Red Pill men, I've recently been reading a lot of articles on the Masculine principle and also about understanding women on Reddit and it seems to me like you all think that women are shallow and are after only one thing and that is attaining the best mate possible and at our core, we're very selfish humans generally.

Human beings are selfish in general and will act accordingly. People are so offended by this idea but it is pretty universally true. Pointing out that women are also selfish is hardly a controversial opinion. Where RP differs is in recognizing gendered patterns in selfishness that allow us to get the most out of our interactions with the opposite sex. If you choose to use that knowledge to be an asshole, I can't stop you.

kick6 · 2016-06-07T18:15:40+00:00

but just the way you view women as not your equals

Yes. Because women and men are different, and therefore aren't equal

you think its okay for you to sleep around but when a woman sleeps around, she's a slut and she's not as 'valuable' as a woman who perhaps would not be so 'easy' or doesn't sleep around as much.

Yes. Because men and women are different.

A relationship should be about two people having feelings for each other and making it work with each other regardless of what they want to change in each other and their differences.

No, that's a woman's perspective and men and women are different.

It should be wanting to spend your life with someone you love and have them love you back for who you are.

no, that's a women's (heavily influenced by rom-com dogma) perspective, and men and women are different.

Are you getting the gist here?

Kozen117 · 2016-06-07T20:02:00+00:00

/u/lady_baker probably has the best answer here.

I recommend that you remember (1) we took away mens' spaces, almost entirely, and (2) you are hearing a combination of locker room talk, rage, sadness, teen bravado, and wisdom with an absence of sugarcoating, in a place that the men who are missing those spaces have almost been herded to.

You have to know TRP's audience and Lady Baker has explained it perfectly.

The language of TRP is catered to men and isn't sugarcoated. It's 'locker-room-talk'. A lot of people get offended by it because they're not used to it. They're so tame. So 'PC'. It's as if people nowadays are so afraid to offend anybody that they start speaking out for people who aren't even in the same demographic (white knights for example, and even the white people who defend black people, not that there isn't anything wrong with defending others). But the problem here lies in the reasons for defending others.

Just 10 years ago, people could get away with saying anything and no one bats an eye. Today, the Western world has become so feminized that now we can't say anything without 'offending' people. I mean really? 'Safe Spaces'? Since when did a grown adult need a 'safe space' from some random stranger's words from the Internet? We're talking about the 20+ year olds here by the way.

TRP disapproves of this. TRP wants to say exactly what's on their minds however they like, hence why they can be so offensive. But the thing is, a lot of this gets lost in translation with the noobies. They don't know any better. And as TRP has said many times, the noobies enter an 'Anger' phase when they first read about TRP because of the sudden realization that these men have been duped, deceived, used, etc.

From here, you can already guess where all the language comes from. More and more men start speaking their minds without filters.

Most of TRP's users look like kids in the anger phase, attempting to persuade others with confirmation bias and the like. "Oh this girl did this, that means all girls must be like that!" Like your typical rad fems, these guys have no idea what logical fallacies are or biases.

However, if you read the sidebar on TRP, a lot of it is based on science. In actuality, a lot of TRP theory is based on practicality. We only use what works in reality, regardless of morality because we just want to succeed. That seems harsh, disregarding morality, but that's just how we see things.

darksoldierk · 2016-06-08T01:11:13+00:00

Honestly, I get angry when I read a lot of Rp posts.

Let me tell you something? I grew up in a world of equality. You know, one where a man and a woman are equal in every regard biologically possible. I was raised to try to help everyone, and to be kind to everyone. And for the most part, I am. But then I grew up. I went out into the real world. I joined the labour market. And you know what I expected? I expected women to behave like men, or men to behave like women if you prefer. What I mean is, I expected people to behave in a similar manner regardless of their gender. You know what I saw? something completely different. I saw women expecting to be given things. I saw women being given those things after threatening to sue for discrimination based on gender. Now I was fortunate enough to enter management pretty early, so I was involved in these types of discussions. Most of the time it's "would it be cheaper to fire her and deal with litigation? or just to give her what she wants". Most of the times that we went the litigation route, they ended up having no case, but they sure did succeed in wasting our time and money.

I was raised in a world where women are to be seen as companions, where you look for the right woman and you create a beautiful relationship filled with love and compassion, a relationships that evolves with time to the point where it ends up being the foundation of your life. But you know what I saw when I went out into the real world? I saw divorces. I saw men who get to see their children once or twice a month. I saw men literally beg their wives to let them see their kids, with tears and all. I saw men who paid a significant portion of their paycheques to alimony and child support. I saw men in courts being driven to bankruptcy because their wives continuously accused them of something and the court looked towards the man to disprove her claim, despite the fact that he had disproved every claim that she had previously made. It's "guilty until proven innocent" for men, and even then.....guilty, for men.

Now I am a human being, and human beings always ask "how did this happen?". As a person who is somewhat logical, the first group of people to suspect are the ones who are currently benefiting from the current state of society. That group is women. They have basically taken the ability to use the law against any corporation or person that they don't like. Most of the time, the laws that grant these women the benefits are illogical, and indefensible.

So yeah, women have shown that they are incapable of sympathy or empathy towards men. They have shown that they could care less about equality. So why should I be any different? Women give men very little of the qualities that they expect men to give them.

InBaggingArea · 2016-06-07T13:24:09+00:00

After years of fems telling men to butt out while they Grab all the freedoms they covetted in men without the constraints that went with them, you remained silent.

Now you expect an equal seat at the table when men strategize to cope with the skewed sexual economy that has resulted. And you come demanding explanations to which you believe you are entitled?

Yeah, right.

Call me callous. Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

mrcs84usn · 2016-06-07T13:42:06+00:00

Hey look, it's another person lecturing us on how we've got it all wrong.

All of the arguments you've brought up have been discussed pretty extensively on TRP and the manosphere as a whole.

648262 · 2016-06-07T19:32:45+00:00

Feminism isn't women. Feminism isn't defined in such a way that we can all use the word and know exactly what the other person means by it. For some it means equal pay for equal work, while others say it's about putting men in cages at the zoo.

Women and men are not equal, but they have equal worth in my opinion. Women don't have less value, they have different value. Sometimes the exchange rate is fucked up, and one is better than the other.

I think you're right about relationships, but you seem to forget humans have the ability to learn from each other. Most relationships fail. So if you want a relationship then doesn't it make sense that you work on it? Is it suddenly wrong to work on the broken parts before you need them?

Am I not supposed to be offended as a woman when men and women come across as individuals with the views that were expressed above?

I don't know - if you're offended then that's on you.

It's okay to offend people with your opinions.

philomexa · 2016-06-07T21:46:56+00:00

It's like you're changing the entire reason behind a relationship. The goal of a relationship should not be the best breed of babies and mating. It should be wanting to spend your life with someone you love and have them love you back for who you are.

How presumptuous of you. So how exactly did you come to be the sole arbiter what and how relationships should be? Is it so unfathomable to think that some people what their relationship to be about the "best breed of babies and mating"?

The world is large, my summer child, you've only seen a sliver of it. There are LOTS of people out there, many of whom have desires and wants that are anathema to your own. Who are you to tell them their completely legal and consensual desires are wrong? who are you to tell us how relationships are supposed to be? Isn't that a bit....patriarchal?

redpillnobody · 2016-06-07T22:59:22+00:00

but just the way you view women as not your equals

Men and women are different, and therefore not equal

You're thinking about "not equal" in the sense that 5 and 4 are not equal, so you immediately think one has to be greater than the other

To give you a better frame of reference, apples and oranges are not equal

For a better mathematical frame of reference, (3,4) and (1,7) are not equal

The core of feminism is not about people having equal or more rights

Yeah it's about improving the position of women at all costs

Sorry not sorry, third wave feminism is not legitimate in any way

but when a woman sleeps around, she's a slut and she's not as 'valuable'

Only for a long-term relationship, on average, not as a human being

There's this misconception that TRP requires you to hate sluts or something, and that's not the case at all, there's just a very strong argument (full of science, statistics and other fun shit that guys love) to show that sluts aren't normally good options for successful long-term relationships on average

And red pill women, you think that you have to change yourself so that men like you more

Because improving yourself for better results in a relationship is so terrible?

If the goal is to get married and have a successful family and marriage along those lines, then what's the point of shaming the use of effective strategy to make that happen while improving yourself at the same time

but that's not the basis of a relationship

This clause of your sentence was incoherent with the first, but you're basically saying that improving yourself for your partner (and for yourself) is a bad thing, which is ridiculous

Also you don't get to determine the basis of other peoples relationships

A relationship should be about two people having feelings for each other and making it work with each other regardless of what they want to change in each other and their differences.

It doesn't work like that in the real world (unfortunately?)

Also that's just like your opinion man (on what a relationship should be about)

The goal of a relationship... should be wanting to spend your life with someone you love and have them love you back for who you are.

For them to love you back as who you are, you have to be someone worth that love, which is the point of improving yourself and choosing someone who is capable of having that type of relationship

Also this quote is directly at odds with what you said about RPW above

it seems to me like you all think that women are shallow and are after only one thing and that is attaining the best mate possible

Going after the best mate possible is not shallow, regardless of who you are, it's just common sense and completely natural, perfectly moral behavior

[deleted] · 2016-06-08T11:03:45+00:00

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Uulmshar · 2016-06-08T01:22:15+00:00

people view women with such less value

Only when they are actually worth less. Which is often. Women have a tendency to not have as much ambition. Women get more degrees in social fields and take jobs as assistants and secretaries. Women aren't expected to put effort into anything serious.

We treat women the way they set themselves up to be treated; as lesser beings. They want to be pets. They want to be paid for, and pampered, and admired, all while taking the passive role. Which leaves us to take the dominant role.

Now, of course, not all women are literally like this, but all women have the inborn urge to act this way, and it takes either serious mental deviation, or massive willpower to change. For all of human history, women have been the passive sex, taking care of family and financial matters, while the men formed the world to their image, fought wars, invented life-changing technology, and became famous historical figures.

Women aren't objectively worth less than men, they make themselves that way.

Plugawy_Nedznik · 2016-06-08T08:40:24+00:00

How do you want to understand if you don't even want to think logically?

A relationship should be about two people having feelings for each other and making it work with each other regardless of what they want to change in each other and their differences. Its about the emotion behind the relationship being stronger than the qualities that people possess.

You're so far deep in your delusions you can't even see reality. Talking to you would be like trying to argue faith out of a religious person.

dakru · 2016-06-07T13:41:46+00:00

I'm not redpill but in this area my perspective is closer to red so I'll comment.

And red pill women, you think that you have to change yourself so that men like you more and want to have long term relationships with you, but that's not the basis of a relationship. A relationship should be about two people having feelings for each other and making it work with each other regardless of what they want to change in each other and their differences.

(I'm not sure why this is directed specifically at RP women to the exclusion of RP men. RP men also take the philosophy of changing yourself to better achieve your goals.)

People don't fall in love, feel an emotional connection, or feel sexual attraction based on some cosmic predetermined connection to your "soul" or anything like that. Love, connection, and attraction are based on your actual traits and actions. And if someone's actual traits and actions don't adequately inspire those things—e.g. they don't dress well, they're overweight, they're shy, not very funny/interesting/charismatic, they're a pushover, etc.—then what should they do? (Someone who already has all of the interest directed at them doesn't have to worry about this question, but there are plenty of people who don't.)

Sit around and expect that other people fall in love with them, feel a connection to them, and feel sexual desire to them anyway? That seems like entitlement: "I know you're not attracted to people who don't dress well, are overweight, shy, not very funny/interesting/charismatic, are a pushover, but I expect you to change what you desire!". It's not just entitlement, it's unrealistic. You can't will yourself to be attracted to someone you're not attracted to, and neither can they. It's the same with love or an emotional connection.

I know you don't see your "I want to be loved for who I am" philosophy as entitlement, but that's really what it will end up as if it doesn't work out. It's like wanting/expecting to be liked as a musician without having to do any practicing or put any effort into your technique or your songs.

And Red Pill men, I've recently been reading a lot of articles on the Masculine principle and also about understanding women on Reddit and it seems to me like you all think that women are shallow and are after only one thing and that is attaining the best mate possible and at our core, we're very selfish humans generally. I don't know. Please explain this to me. Am I not supposed to be offended as a woman when men and women come across as individuals with the views that were expressed above?

First of all the question shouldn't be whether you're offended by these beliefs, it should be whether these beliefs are true. If they're true then being offended doesn't really change anything.

I'm not an RPer so I don't want to speak for their philosophy, but with regards to shallowness the point I'd make is that we all have these base desires, whether it's a man who's turned on by large breasts or a woman who's turned on by height and social status. It doesn't mean we're bad people.

[deleted] · 2016-06-07T16:23:27+00:00

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gasparddelanuit · 2016-06-08T11:42:59+00:00

Men are getting fed-up with the growing arrogance and entitlement of women. Women are largely oblivious to this and often only realise when it is too late, given all the cheerleading support they get to be unjustifiably proud of themselves and evermore demanding of men, while offering little of what men want in return.

Sepean · 2016-06-08T13:39:13+00:00

And red pill women, you think that you have to change yourself so that men like you more and want to have long term relationships with you, but that's not the basis of a relationship. A relationship should be about two people having feelings for each other and making it work with each other regardless of what they want to change in each other and their differences. Its about the emotion behind the relationship being stronger than the qualities that people possess.

So you want to find someone that will love you even though you put in no effort. That's great, you'll probably find some chump who will settle for that - too bad that he's going be a chump that you won't be attracted to.

You see, quality people won't settle for someone who doesn't put in the effort.

shoup88 · 2016-06-07T14:37:29+00:00

My understanding of the rationale behind red pill theory is that it doesn't matter if it's unfair or not nice or offensive or disgusting. It's truth, and the morality behind it (or lack thereof) is irrelevant. This is the way the world works, and they're just trying to succeed in it. "Sexual strategy is amoral" is something of a motto.

Mentioned_Videos · 2016-06-07T18:46:37+00:00

Videos in this thread:

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VIDEO	COMMENT
The Beatles - When I'm Sixty-Four	1 - "I know you don't see your "I want to be loved for who I am" philosophy as entitlement, but that's really what it will end up as if it doesn't work out. It's like wanting/expecting to be liked as a musician without having to do any pra...
PUT WOMEN IN THEIR PLACE: Tom Leykis	1 - Men are getting fed-up with the growing arrogance and entitlement of women. Women are largely oblivious to this and often only realise when it is too late, given all the cheerleading support they get to be unjustifiably proud of themselves and evermo...
Olivia Newton-John - Deeper Than The Night	1 - If you will - contrast the cultural messages in the 70s - Olivia Newton-John - Deeper than the Night - .. to Elle Knight's Exes and Ohs.
The Best of the Triggering with Trigglypuff!	1 - I admit I don't. What I DO know is how much false guilt I internalised from Team Dworkin bellowing at me for 30 years about how much my penis made me an "inherent rapist" or something... and how I almost killed myself through suicidal ea...
(1) Sgt. Barnes "Check your fire!" (2) Feminists Love Islamists	1 - And current-wave Steinem feminism has shot itself in the foot- in giving a free pass to hardline Muslims who have REALLY misogynist values... Choices and consequences. By Dworkin/Steinem slandering all Western men as potential rapists - they hit t...
The Female Paedophile	1 - Wrong. Erin Pizzey tried calling out women's violence on men - was hounded out of the UK. Kidscape had death threats - Female-on-male abuse has been systematically hidden. Koss erased me.

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Title	Understanding The Red Pill
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	3
Comments	195
Date	June 7, 2016 11:32 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4myl59/understanding_the_red_pill/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/understanding-the-red-pill.274403 https://theredarchive.com/post/274403

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