Do women believe there are difficulties in being a man, or that men have struggles that women can't understand?

woefulwank · 2015-09-28T19:16:48+00:00

I think women are generally aware that men have struggles and problems.

I don't think women are aware of the magnitude or nature of those struggles and problems; and for the most part I don't think women really care all that much.

Where I think women are quite deficient is their near-total lack of empathy for how such struggles affect men. I think women have no idea how crushing some of those problems are; and no idea how those problems affect men -- particularly the men they are closest to.

ThorLives · 2015-09-28T21:17:03+00:00

Sex drive, the constant desire to have sex but not always or not having the means to feed that drive.

Here's a slightly different variation on that: it's the fact that women are desired by men quite a bit more than women desire men. I've had this kind of experience quite a bit - where I'm out at a bar or club, approaching women or trying to dance with them on the dancefloor, and women will back away or pretend not to see me. They act indifferent to talking to me. There are times when I might approach five or ten different women and all of them are indifferent to me. It's humbling and humiliating. The only women who seem to pay attention to me are below average women. Now, you might be thinking, "Ah, you're trying to date out of your league. Some men can be so delusional." A few months ago, a friend of a friend, at the end of the night at a club, was telling me that he couldn't believe I wasn't going home with some girl - saying that I looked like a model so I shouldn't have any trouble picking up some girl. Yet, there I was. And this is a common occurrence. You feel like you have to hussle like a motherfucker to get any attractive girls to pay attention to you. Being a guy trying to meet women is a daily exercise in trying not to take lots of rejection personally.

Conversely, I see how easy women have it. I've saw one female friend of mine walking around saying hi to guys in a bar, and seeing their eyes light up, being welcoming to her, and trying to pull her into a conversation. It's like they were thinking, "Oh my god, a girl is approaching me!" One guy was buying her drinks. Twenty minutes later, I saw her making out with some random guy at the bar. I see men being friendly and talkative with any attractive girl who happens to walk past. For example, one guy who works at the front desk of my gym is constantly trying to pull girls into conversations when they walk in or leave. They probably just think he's a friendly guy, but he's never attempted to talk to me and I've never seen him have a conversation with another guy. I've seen guys circling around trying to talk to girls at the gym or the bar. Sometimes, these guys are hitting on them. Sometimes they're just "being friendly" and having a conversation (though it's clear their desire goes beyond platonic). I sometimes wonder how aware girls are to the fact that they live in a much friendlier world than guys live in - a world where guys just seem to really like talking, helping them, where people find their every word "fascinating". Admittedly, this is mostly an advantage that above-average girls have. Though, you certainly don't get that advantage as an attractive guy (except for maybe a random girl approaching you once every six months). The result of all this being that attractive women think the world is "just a friendly place" and always feel desired.

Even when you get in a relationship with an attractive girl, you've still got guys hovering around trying to see if she's single or if they can steal her away from you. I've had one guy "friend"/acquaintance who told my girlfriend (at the time) that they should sleep together sometime. (He tries to sleep with almost every girl he meets; though I'm surprised he'd be a shitty person and do it while we were together.) And right now I have another guy "friend" who's started texting my girlfriend to hang out at the bar. No, he didn't text me to invite me along. It's making me feel sketchy about his intentions. But, that's what it's like - you feel like guys are always circling around looking for an opening. It feels like a constant competition with other men to get the girl and keep her.

Needless to say, there are many times that, as far as sex and relationships are concerned, that I wish I was a woman. I can see how easy they have it; how many men are chomping at the bit to get with them. I sometimes wonder if that's why men can often have a negative outlook on life - because men have to work for everything, whereas, above-average women get lots of free attention, friendliness, and validation directed their way.

ReddishBlack · 2015-09-28T23:03:36+00:00

Do women believe there are difficulties in being a man?

Yes, some women believe there are difficulties in being a man. Some men believe there are difficulties in being a woman. Not all men or all women believe these things although i think most do. I don't really get why this is even a gendered question (actually, I do, but more on that later). SOME people are more capable of empathizing, of feeling the pain of another person, even if that pain is not one that they themselves are familiar with. Some aren't. I've never personally noticed that this empathy or lack of it had much to do with gender.

Sometimes I think this boils down to "can you, or can you not, accept that the things you feel are important might not be the things that other people feel are important without thinking the other person is 'wrong?'" Are you as a human being able to grasp that things you think are trivial may be very meaningful to another person without assuming that the other person is stupid/brainwashed/wrong? It's really just that.

And context matters here. PPD, Reddit and the internet in general aren't places where human beings seem to be too willing or too able to pull their heads out of their asses. Also, things get personal here. Insults are flung. Hostility is widespread. It's a LOT more difficult to go to the effort to truly understand the suffering of a person who has just informed you that your own suffering is meaningless or flat-out doesn't exist. I swear to god the mods need to start handing out mandatory doses of MDMA before anyone is allowed to post here if what we're looking for is deep understanding and human sympathy and/or empathy.

Some quotes from this thread:

I think women have no idea how crushing some of those problems are; and no idea how those problems affect men -- particularly the men they are closest to.

followed by:

I can see how catcalling can affect women; but it's not because they're afraid of being raped; it's because they're receiving sexual attention from mostly unattractive men.

That's the problem, right there. My problems are real. My pain is important. Your problems are made up and unimportant. Your problems are whining and in fact I won't even allow you to have them, they must be characterized as something other than what you've said they are. And let me also say that although I've used a RP example here, BP does this too, I am not posting this in defense of one side or the other because i think both sides (and people in general) can be incredibly shortsighted when it comes to recognizing the trials and tribulations of other people.

TL/DR - fuck your perceived issues when a dad can't even be a proper dad without having to quell claims of pedophilia!. /s Thanks Femmepire you are doing so much good in the world /s. Morons!

Another perfect example. I'm starting to think this is inherent to many humans. 'I suffer X thing and therefore people who suffer Y and Z things are morons because Y and Z aren't real probems.' This kind of thinking is, as far as I can see it, utterly useless. The minute you follow a plea of 'please understand my problems' with 'and fuck your problems, you moron, they're not even real problems' you set up the whole interaction to end with both people steaming about what an unfeeling asshole the other person is - as well as handicapping any possibility of mutual understanding.

Conversely, I see how easy women have it.

Another example. Because women don't have the same problem(s) as me, their lives are easy (note: it's possible the poster didn't mean this, my comment is more general re: this sub and what I see here). No. You fail the head-in-ass test. As do the BPers writing off all the men who say that female sexual rejection is a huge source of pain to some men.

I'll never understand what having a period is like and they'll never understand why a man would ask for a paternity test for their child.

Sure, a man will never know what cramps feel like. And I'll never know what it feels like to wonder whether or not a given child is biologically mine or not. This doesn't mean that neither side can understand, through the use of their human brains, that these things can be extremely painful and then feel sympathy for that pain. I completely understand that it must be terrifying and awful to be unsure whether or not the child you're raising is biologically yours or not. I can also understand how devastating it must be to lose your legs in combat or suffer a lifelong injury in childbirth due to a complication that would have been minor in a first-world setting, even though it isn't likely that I will ever experience either of these things.

/u/Thorlives posted upthread about the specific male issue of approaching women in clubs and how difficult it is for many men. How difficult is it to just say "alright, this isn't something I experience and it might not even be something I care about specifically, but I accept what this person is saying about their experience?" Rather than "oh what bullshit, you're mad because your dick didn't get wet, what a non-problem, who cares?" Pretty damn difficult, it seems.

No one owes anybody anything. No one owes you empathy or sympathy. But it exists and if you want it (and I would venture to say all of us do) you have to be willing to give the thing you want. You have to be willing to accept the fact (and it is a fact) that you are not the final arbiter on other people's problems and their worth. If you want understanding, you'd be advised to be willing to give it. Hostility gets us nowhere in terms of understanding each other. No matter how fervently you feel that your own issues are more important than other people's differing issues it doesn't follow that you're objectively correct in any sense. As invested as you are in your particular cause or issue, as trivial as you see the issues of that other group, is exactly how they feel about the triviality of your issues and their importance.

TL;DR Getting your head out of your ass is hard. But you aren't really justified in asking others to do it unless and until you're willing to do it yourself.

[deleted] · 2015-09-28T23:57:10+00:00

One area where I definitely feel for men is being expected to initiate in relationship settings. From asking for a number/date to initiating sex to proposing marriage, all those things are considered the "guy's job." I sympathize here because I absolutely suck at initiating things like this, both because I have pretty bad social anxiety and because as a woman I haven't been socialized to do these things. I think it's an unfair burden to place on men, and I try to do my best to shoulder some of that burden in my relationship even though it doesn't come naturally to me.

I also think suicide and mental illness among men is a huge problem, and I think it's largely due to the expectation that men should be strong and stoic and the stigma placed on men who seek help. I've watched my oldest brother battle untreated mental illness for most of his life and keep so many things bottled up because our family emotionally stifles everyone, but especially the boys. It breaks my heart.

It goes without saying that I have no concept of what the male sex drive is like; only that it's very different from my own. (Then again, that goes both ways.)

max_peenor · 2015-09-28T19:33:33+00:00

From talking with women everywhere -- including on this very sub -- women have absolutely no fucking idea what it's like to have a sex drive constantly gnawing at you and not always being able to sate it.

Women have absolutely no fucking idea what it's like to be under constant pressure to perform. Men are never, ever relieved of their burden of performance -- not even when they are depressed, jobless, or whatever else has befallen them.

ChaosRedux · 2015-09-28T19:14:24+00:00

I'm a woman and I am cognizant of them. I certainly don't pretend to speak for all women, but I would argue it's difficult to go through life without any communication with the opposite sex, and many of these struggles are apparent, in particular the last one.

That said, I do think people in general have gender-based expectations that, from a personal view, supercede the recognition that it is a struggle to meet those expectations.

Yonderlander · 2015-09-28T20:18:24+00:00

I must admit I wasn't always as aware, I just thought men were lucky to be men.

My friend, who used to run a men's charity, made me more aware. The main struggles they address are-

-Lack of support/ charities/ services for men. You are just expected to work and never have any problems.

-The problem of being a separated Dad, not receiving any benefits as not the primary carer. Problems like, access, payments, being expected to have a second bedroom for the child to stay in. Much too expensive for most young men. (Child support isn't very much in the UK so that isn't such a big deal.)

-Social factors such as not being supposed to show weakness, emotion, struggles with mental health.

There are loads more but those are my mates main issues off the top of my head.

Funny story, when I discovered reddit I joined MRA thinking that was what it was about. I'd never heard of the actual MRA or had any inkling about the wierd internet view of feminism as something other than 'equality movement for women.' I assumed MRA worked together with feminists to achieve the same goal, as you would logically assume. It was a bit of a shock to see the wierd dystopia place MRA ended up!

MagicGainbow · 2015-09-28T19:20:24+00:00

I don't think they are, I think most women truly don't realize how they benefit from the women are wonderful effect etc.

The lack of care for mens issues/contempt for mras's, the trivial complaints that western feminists have now etc.

The fact that women see a work environment were men treat them as other men as hpstile says it all.

DevilishRogue · 2015-09-28T19:48:50+00:00

It's unusual but not unheard of. Karen Straughan is perhaps the best example of a woman who 'gets' the male experience. Certainly most women don't and even Norah Vincent still didn't 'get' the male experience despite living as a man for so long.

[deleted] · 2015-09-28T20:28:15+00:00

They know about them but they don't understand them. I wouldn't expect them to. I'll never understand what having a period is like and they'll never understand why a man would ask for a paternity test for their child.

HalfysReddit · 2015-09-28T22:44:12+00:00

No doubt, although I don't think the issue deals much with one gender vs. another as much as it deals with empathetic people vs. less-empathetic people.

I see a lot of these comments referencing feminists or feminism as reasoning why women are oblivious to the struggles of men, which only leads me to believe these people have very limited exposure to women as most women aren't feminists.

bonerdude420 · 2015-09-28T23:35:33+00:00

Im not even convinced many men are cognizant of the downside of being a man. They're certainly not good at prioritising or communicating it.

But this thread does prove the OP's point. There's a few users here who show contempt for even discussing the male experience

ZenerDiod · 2015-09-28T22:23:27+00:00

When I read all this stuff about men being profiled as pedo, I think this is the one social situation where being black is undoubtedly better. I don't anyone thinks pedo when they see a black guy, and I've never felt worried that I may been seen as one. Our society see's black men as aggressive towards adults but not so much kids

HarryLillis · 2015-09-28T21:46:47+00:00

If you have a constant desire to have sex, you have sex addiction, not maleness.

I'm a man and am not cognizant of these problems. What are you talking about with the second one? Who thinks of you as inherently evil or malicious? My experience has almost exclusively been the opposite, that as a man my intentions are well thought of even when they are poor, or that when I perceive poor intentions in other men, other people don't perceive them.

The third one, sure, but does this affect you on a daily basis at all? As a man I've never struggled with this point. Yes like any expectation, reality resists it, but my worth as a man is not tied into that point. In fact I find my worth as a man is generally elevated by behaving contrarily to it.

wont_tell_i_refuse · 2015-09-28T19:41:08+00:00

I often explain that most men never get laid to women and it makes sense to them. They're not like heartbroken about it, but they definitely understand logically how it is so. I feel like RPers try to bang women who are significantly stupider than average, which makes sense because the hotter you are the less need there is for you to be smart.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2015-09-28T22:24:23+00:00

Do you think that, women are cognizant of men's struggles, in the sense that there are struggles or problems men face that women do not face? Why or why not?

I think decades of feminist indoctrination telling women that they are oppressed in every way and men are the oppressor combined with the proven greater in-group bias women have means that women in general seem less aware of male issues than female ones.

Also men who attempt to discuss their issues are dismissed as "mansplaining" or "what about teh menz"ing.

There really is no similar movement to prevent women from talking about what is harming them.

Also there is a natural aversion to hearing men express weakness while it's perfectly acceptable for women to ask for help.

I see far more women casually dismissing male issues than I see men dismissing female issues.

belletaco · 2015-09-28T19:09:34+00:00

of course there are gender specific struggles, not everyone suffers them, but yeah, there are good and bad things that come with being any gender.

TheChemist158 · 2015-09-28T19:56:21+00:00

I'm sure there are minor, male only situations that suck. In the western world, they are very rarely serious though.

Also, most men are not thought to be evil. That's complete hyperbole, and any man who is struggling with that is really struggling with mental illness.

Honestly, dividing struggles like that along gender does very little and obfuscates actual differences. In the western world, your economic class causes or relieves much more issues than your gender. World wide, your nationality can completely change what your issues are. It's just silly to put gender in as one of these major differences. It's like comparing a paper cut to a stab wound.

vinegarbubblegum · 2015-09-28T22:43:17+00:00

Do you think that, women are cognizant of men's struggles, in the sense that there are struggles or problems men face that women do not face? Why or why not?

Yes and no. What do you expect, that all women have the same levels of awareness or perception? Doesn't really work like that.

Sex drive, the constant desire to have sex but not always or not having the means to feed that drive.

Have you ever considered that some men don't have such a high sex drive (oh right, beta.) well, have you ever considered there are women out there who are maniacs about sex?

Being thought of as inherently evil or malicious even though a man does not feel that way.

i think maybe you think of yourself this way, and you're projecting it onto women. i don't think all women truly believe this of you. #notAWALT but then again, I'm a dude, with a dick.

Expectations of being tough and powerful in certain situations.

If they have the expectation, they are aware. the question becomes, do you meet that expectation? because if not, that's on you.

planejane · 2015-09-29T02:27:32+00:00

I don't feel that women spend any amount of time considering the condition of men at all.

If such knowledge is thrust upon them I believe that the majority of women are indifferent and callous. They may express concern if a male they consider to be a resource is affected by these problems, or they are in company where it's not safe to express her true feelings. However, if any man's difficulties compete against her own interests she will always side with her own interests. Even when those interests were small or only related to comfort and the man's interests were related to physical injury, imprisonment, or death, women have repeatedly advocated for their comfort.

We see this play out on college campuses now where males are railroaded for false rape accusations.

Or in the case of sexual harassment. Women would rather destroy a man's life than to learn how to say "no" and to stand up for herself.

To sum up, I don't think women give a shit about men unless giving a shit is somehow in her interests. If caring means she can boost her reputation then she will. Otherwise, women care about themselves and don't give a fuck about men. Especially poor or low status men.

ReginaRadfem · 2015-09-28T21:39:07+00:00

Sure, men have at least one problem women don't: What to do with all that power and privilege?

RagingFuckalot · 2015-09-30T01:52:12+00:00

Number one though...that's pretty hilarious.

[deleted] · 2015-09-28T20:15:48+00:00

Yea of course.

Title	Do women believe there are difficulties in being a man, or that men have struggles that women can't understand?
Author	gavinok
Upvotes	20
Comments	258
Date	September 28, 2015 7:01 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3mqgbs/do_women_believe_there_are_difficulties_in_being/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/do-women-believe-there-are-difficulties-in-being-a.279349 https://theredarchive.com/post/279349

Comments