Q4RP: What happened to "try to leave her better than you found her?"

NockerJoe · 2020-05-17T00:51:19+00:00

Shit got commodified more and more. The inner game shift was immediately followed by a social media boom and by the time that shit was being regularly left out OLD had become swipes based, with more emphasis placed on appearance by both. At the same time that transition to inner game happened in the period where the number of men on a population scale went from more and more guys getting laid, to less and less each year. We're talking about like a 30% jump over about a decade of all men under 30.

Old school PUA was really simple in it's premise. You took an awkward guy who didn't know what the rules were and you gave him the skills to get the attention of chicks who mostly never noticed him and hope he eventually builds to a LTR. But in the current era that's not the problem. When everyone is on an app the assumption is that girls are actively considering him, but also rejecting him as a non starter immediately unless he passes a visual test. When the barrier to even get in is mostly superficial photography or body aesthetics then shit like personality and self development stop mattering.

The guys who pass that barrier have absolutely no motivation to leave a woman better because he had to jump through all those hoops to get there. Or even if he didn't, he knows what percentage of guys he's in and what percentage of girls she's probably in and there's something like three women for every man at the upper levels. He doesn't need to care about their feelings at all because they're replaceable and don't care about his.

sadomasochrist · 2020-05-17T01:39:32+00:00

PUA is not red pill.

Suck-Less · 2020-05-17T01:57:26+00:00

FYI the phrase “leave her better than when you found her” has been around for a long time. It used to be called “the gentleman’s agreement” and was typically used when an older man fooled around with a younger to much younger woman. It was around well before the 90s PUA movement.

SkookumTree · 2020-05-17T01:44:16+00:00

"Leave her better than you found her" in TRP was mostly one of the ways they advised to defend against the "regret rape" threat.

What happened is Trump was elected and Title IX was forced to shift to defense. The shift was actually happening before Trump was elected in a number of lawsuits, but Trump's election and appointment of DeVos sealed the shift in tone.

But also TRP was taken over first by alt-right tradcon edgelord larps and then later by incels and regretrape is entirely academic for both.

Likunfanele · 2020-05-17T02:57:36+00:00

My theory is something like this.

Lets take and idea like the RP. Lets say you have 10k guys trying to figure it out, figure out what they did wrong etc.

So you have those 10k and of that 8000 are normal guys, 1000 are just hopeless and 1000 are just irredeemable on some level, be it mentally ill or just pure hate etc.

So at first that 8000 drowns them out, shit gets done.

Then as time goes on many of that 8000 basically move on, they got all they could, they got married, they lost interest in talking about it, whatever.

The 1000 sad sacks are mostly still there.

The 1000 haters are there too.

Now just for giggles lets say another 10k join after hearing about it same ratio 8, 1, 1. I'm not going to figure out the math how many cycles it takes but sooner or later you end up with a majority of haters and losers, especially haters as they want to spread their misery.

So now the sub is 50-50 at some point, and I don't know anything about the mods there but often the "good mods" retire because being a message board janitor has its issues and life goes on, again leaving people who WANT that power and have nothing better to do in life. So slowly moderation starts to favor stuff that wouldn't have been tolerated at first too.

These things start to drive off the normal people even quicker than usual.

Reddit then decided to soft ban it with a quarantine, and its done. This litterally concentrates the crazy to an extent that reasonable people have a hard time getting anything out of it, the haters have their he man woman haters club and the sub gets very little new blood because reddit has buried it. Put a fork in it.

Now I can't say thats exactly what happened to TRP but it is the sort of thing I see happening to other subs.

tickledpic · 2020-05-17T07:17:01+00:00

Throughout all of this, a phrase constantly being thrown around, which was almost universally agreed upon, was the motto "leave her better than you found her."

That bs. PUA is based on you manipulating her to catch feelings even though you only want casual. That means to her inevitably realizing you lied to her (mislead her by being vague and ambiguous about your intentions) to get in her pants.

PUA has never had the moral high ground.

Likunfanele · 2020-05-17T00:40:13+00:00

That was only the seduction community. Trp dropped that right away. It's a ridiculous fantasy anyway and just a cope guys would tell themselves. Plus a lot of the red pill were guys deep in the anger phase, who often deliberately left her worse. I reveled in leaving them worse. Heck most of what I was doing was laughing at the foolishness of the change from sex being moral if it was inside a marriage to sex being moral if the girl consents. So I would get girls to consent to all kinds of incredibly degrading things. I mean hey it was moral, the girls all consented.

If we want to abstract this a bit and go deeper the tragedy of the commons comes in to play. If women are public grazing grounds then why would I take care of them? You know which woman I take care of? My wife.

Fuzzy-Scene · 2020-05-17T14:32:48+00:00

After reading this entire thread I can honestly say as a woman that I shall never again involve myself with a man in any way shape or form. This thread disgusts me. The attitudes, manipulation, hate just everything. There is no hope here, love or compassion. I feel sad that the objective is to extract something for selfish means and there isn't a single thought about doing something selfless.

How the fuck did we get to this point? It isn't all women fault yet there is a distinct lack of self-awareness that even hints that men have played their part. I'm not saying that women have done no wrong because I know they have. My own mother was probably the embodiment of the type of women discussed here. However, are we not supposed to be working towards doing things better and healthier for all?

To me this just feels like a race to the bottom. We have touched the floor and are now digging past the barrier. What's happening here isn't going to make humanity advance one iota. Humanity has imploded and love is unachievable. In fact love is a concept in the eyes of the commentators here. I doubt any of you have ever truly loved anyone.

TheJim66 · 2020-05-17T00:46:35+00:00

Why would I ever care about making a stranger woman "better than I found her"?RP is an amoral sexual strategy. Amoral means that for RP ,whether something is morally wrong or right is irrelevant . What TRP concerns itself with is whether something WORKS.

2020-05-17T13:56:54+00:00

There is no reason to. Perhaps to make you feel better about yourself, but TRP is not about setting up a charity. In fact, pumping and dumping is going to hurt women naturally in the process of meeting your sexual needs. Furthermore, female behavior is so abysmal these days, the question honestly should be asked - why should you care about the petty, narcissist misandrist just because she fucks you?

UTC24 · 2020-05-17T15:10:12+00:00

Chivery is dead and women killed it.

 - David Chappelle

zayelion · 2020-05-17T00:45:20+00:00

[permanently deleted]

controlfreakavenger · 2020-05-17T00:54:16+00:00

The feminist movement happened. The statement you are referencing makes women sound as though they don’t have agency. What if a woman goes not want to be left “better”? And who decides what “better” is anyway, the next guy she dates?

DerekMorganBAU · 2020-05-17T13:27:05+00:00

The streets will handle that

Protocol_Apollo · 2020-05-17T07:54:30+00:00

As sado points out, red pill is not PUA.

There’s overlaps, sure. But they aren’t the same.

Not all bits of PUA make it to TRP.

PUA believes in making women THINK you have value, red pill is about making you have value. PUA rarely mentions lifting; TRP almost always mentions lifting.

PUA believes in “leave her better than you found her”, TRP doesn’t.

Sexual strategy is amoral.

I don’t try to leave my girls worse than I find them but I don’t go too out of way to leave them better either.

There’s a huge double standard here where men are still expected to play by the old books and be chivalrous and moral whereas women aren’t expected to do shit.

Everyone agrees when women say “you aren’t entitled to sex!”

But not everyone agrees when a man says:

“You aren’t entitled to a relationship (if it’s after sex)”.

Or

“Fine but you aren’t entitled to my friendship” (if he doesn’t close).

Men get shamed into giving up something they don’t want to give as if they owe something to women.

Men don’t owe women anything.

Women aren’t OWED being left better than before.

If a woman doesn’t want to put out after 5 dates, that’s perfectly fine. She owes the guy nothing.

If a guy wants to cut his losses after even the 1st date, that’s perfectly fine. He owes the woman nothing.

If a guy doesn’t leave a woman better than before, that’s perfectly fine. He never owed her anything in the first place.

Joey_Lopez · 2020-05-17T01:25:48+00:00

I'm guessing it's because women's treatment of men has taken a turn for the worse. The women of 2004 were not like the women of today. Now they are more women out to try and cheat you then not. So men have just become more cold and jaded as a result.

gunbusterxl · 2020-05-17T00:38:30+00:00

Incels happened. I have no idea why anyone thought it would be good to take down r/braincels. At least they were all in one place.

2020-05-17T05:04:40+00:00

Well, my ex wife was a bit of a slow-moving train wreck when I found her. Lots of issues, and couldn't hold down a job. Now she's quite successful and lives a pretty healthy lifestyle. I think SOME of her success was due to the support and caring I gave her during the marriage, and even after.

I was never violent with a female, never hit a woman or raised my hand to one. Grabbed the arms of a woman thrashing at my face in an emotional outburst once... when I showed her how I was able to control her by the wrists without leaving a compression bruise, she was impressed....

There was one young woman I dated in my Chadlite days... she *wanted* me in a bad way and I let it happen. Being wanted like that was totally fucking intoxicating. But, she was vulnerable. I didn't mistreat her, but knowing what I know now I would have done things differently.

Had one girlfriend actually come back and thank me for getting her through a really shitty period in her life and taking her away from a coward POS guy who she sort of needed protection from. He was apparently quite a dangerous fellow. Killed a man, they say. Maybe I should not have introduced myself as "the new boyfriend" and called him a pussy.

Looking back, I'm not proud of all of my behavior, but generally I treated women pretty well, and just wanted them to be happy and have fun. Overall, I think I've done more good than harm.

If I'm a misogynist, I have a funny way of showing it. I still do a lot of things for women in my life and the women in my community. I just don't expect anything for it.

Moms and dads drop their daughters here for sleepovers with my kids.

I know I'm a good man. Nothing else matters.

My word is my bond.

I don't hurt people.

Unless you hurt my people. Then the motherfucking game is on.

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2020-05-17T04:43:52+00:00

Amorality works, I guess. Better to go for your own interests than pull back and fall on common ground. People have to be more selfish in order to get their needs met sometimes.

If you ask me, the guys that try everything they can to get laid are new and still haven't learned much of anything yet. TRP is just a tool to them. Leaving anything "better than you found it" is a bit more on the spiritual side toward self-growth and "becoming one with everything." TRP would see that as pure "monk mode bullshit," but I've been in monk-mode for so long that it seems the only way to operate. Even if you don't get laid. I'm trying to find it in monk-mode but I wont lie, it's difficult.

verdantsound · 2020-05-17T05:59:16+00:00

I forgot this was said

2020-05-17T13:14:35+00:00

These post responses have me wondering if these men here just value sex above all else innately of they’re fixating on it because it represents status with their peers. Either way, not a great reflection on men.

2020-05-17T19:06:41+00:00

In the shitshow that’s today’s Sexual Market Place, why should I give a fuck about that?

figyg · 2020-05-17T20:38:16+00:00

Young guys believe in getting a car and modding the crap out of it. Older guys just wanna get something that's already reliable and just drive off the lot. Thay doesnt mean we beat the shit out of it. Keep it clean, change the oil, keep gas in the tank, etc.

Point being, women are cars /s

But you get my drift

escapethesolarsystem · 2020-05-17T21:08:14+00:00

Like everything American, TRP started out balanced and thoughtful, but slowly morphed to the individualistic and amoral extreme. Honestly, this is what happens with everything American, it starts nuanced and well conceived, but as it gains popularity Americans eventually poison it with their low-IQ slogans, simplistic "3 step" frameworks, "man, like don't have morals, that's too judgmental man, we are just like all animals!", and "me me me" mentality.

This is why I lean more and more back to traditional masculinity and traditional values, because society and civilization is actually something we should be responsible for not screwing up - this neoliberal mentality of hyper-individualism and moral relativism has created a failed west that circling the drain, and that's bad for all of humanity, because the west used to be the origin of a lot of our best ideas about human rights, freedom, science, and human progress.

2020-05-18T15:54:13+00:00

I’ve been part of red pill community for nearing 7 years and have not once seen that mentality

It’s not our responsibility to treat her with kid gloves or improve her in someway

FYI if you think negging doesn’t still work or is outdated you’re flat wrong

zayelion · 2020-05-18T16:11:25+00:00

I prescribe to this because it leaves the door open to rekindle the relationship. Much of the online community is focused on getting out of bed and dressed figuratively, and a large part just giving up on going out the door. Its more an advanced technique.

Rubbi23 · 2020-05-19T01:01:34+00:00

Ruthless capitalism... Trump... take your pick

2020-05-17T06:51:37+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2020-05-17T11:09:56+00:00

What happened to the phrase is that it was always stupid, and part of the way the PUAs rationalized their meaninglessness to themselves, which is to say that it's not possible to "leave a woman better than you found her" if you've been having a casual sexual relationship with her. Over time RedPillers stopped pretending that this is possible.

WIA20XX · 2020-05-17T08:34:47+00:00

Red Pill developed as a result of a few pickup artists realizing that the evolutionary psychology that they skip the chapters on was in fact very important. Girls are not in fact fragile flowers, and are actually quite deceitful

Mrs_Drgree · 2020-05-17T01:01:49+00:00

This is a reminder that downvoting is against the rules. Just like, don't man...

2020-05-17T04:49:16+00:00

Probably because the idea that your dick is a magic wand that improves lives is silly. Youre not going to leave anyone better after a ons. The best youre gonna do is give an oblivious ho more brain damage.

ha1ry_nipples · 2020-05-17T03:28:47+00:00

We're talking about women not a sports car.

Most women are damaged beyond repair anyway and if you don't lie your way into her pants somebody else will. If you're not naturally sexually attractive you need to make her feel special and seem like you're always going to be there to help her (beta bucks). Then you ghost her and delete her number when you're sick of her.

These women are narcissistic thots who deserve what they get by players who fuck and chuck em. Consider it karma.

Title	Q4RP: What happened to "try to leave her better than you found her?"
Author	tnais
Upvotes	116
Comments	322
Date	May 17, 2020 12:34 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/gl5sfc/q4rp_what_happened_to_try_to_leave_her_better/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4rp-what-happened-to-try-to-leave-her-better-than.665982 https://theredarchive.com/post/665982

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