Do women really have high standards or is it just that most men don’t put effort into their looks?

DissonanceBadger · 2020-07-12T09:20:36+00:00

Men don’t try to meet women’s standards because frankly it’s not obvious what the standards are. Your post itself demonstrates this. Women don’t like wealthy men, they like effective men. Effective men are likely to be wealthy. Wealth is a proxy to something attractive, not the attractive thing itself.

Even men who have reasonable success with women often only have a warped and partial understanding of this subject. You can’t actively work towards meeting standards when you don’t know what they are.

Regarding the 20% thing, male attractiveness is based more on behavior than looks. An OK Cupid profile literally doesn’t give women the kind of information they need to properly establish attraction, it’s like letting men rate the attractiveness of women without showing their pictures. So the correct title for that tidbit of information is that when females judge attractiveness based on secondary criteria, a man has to be exceptional to be considered attractive.

You should also consider that female attraction mechanisms are about avoiding the bad, while male attraction mechanisms are about running towards the good. Women literally look for reasons why not, men look for reasons why yes. For a woman, a man’s good qualities are much more likely to be overshadowed by him having one bad quality

Emma_Lemma_108 · 2020-07-12T01:51:24+00:00

In most mammal species, only 20% of males pass on their genetic material. Aka, only 20% are considered viable mates and are able to attract, defend, and mate with females. Humans are no exception to this biological fact.

Therefore I personally see this differential as an inherent part of being a mammal as much as anything else; in fact human males have more of a chance than most other species. There are various studies which have looked into this, so the angle depends on who you read.

Sources: https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2041-2223-5-13

https://amp.theguardian.com/science/2014/sep/24/women-men-dna-human-gene-pool

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC544928/

TheBookOfSeil · 2020-07-11T22:12:28+00:00

I'm gonna say both feed into each other. Women have high standards so men don't try to meet them because the effort put in is more than they might get out of it (i.e., if all that a lot of women have to offer is their bodies, putting effort into being a total package for them is not worth it).

A lot of women seem to think that they're funny, interesting and have good personalities, but if the average woman's personality is really plain, as in they like to laugh, post selfies/take pics of themselves, watch Netflix, and have a dog, and go to college, that is plain and boring by most men's standards, but the thing about it is that men who are mostly looking for sex will still take these women, which in turn causes women to devalue personality improvement. None of them seem to want to admit that they're demanding and getting a better deal in most cases.

VariationBusiness · 2020-07-12T00:31:45+00:00

I'm shocked at how many people on this sub STILL can't grasp the 80/20 rule and female sexual selection.

If every single male on the planet was 10% body fat, 6+ feet tall, jacked, and a face like Henry Cavill or whoever, guess what, 80% of them would STILL be unattractive.

It's not men's looks, women only want to mate with the best possible male among a group. That's why you also see below average guys with hot GFs sometimes, because sometimes these people meet in niche communities where the ugly guy is still the hottest guy in the same group.

If every male was over 6 feet, then anything under 6'5" would be considered short. If every male was as hot as you can get by today's standard, then women would create a new standard to judge men from.

Market_Feudalism · 2020-07-11T22:26:52+00:00

The modern sedentary lifestyle has made men's bodies less attractive and I think there's some truth to the idea that modern diets are too soft and have made our skulls develop poorly. Most men definitely have areas to improve their looks. That being said, I think the "cosmopolitan" effect has done more than anything to raise women's standards. By that, I mean historically people had much smaller social environments (farm, family, village). Now we are able to instantly communicate with faraway people, travel rapidly, and we visit places with large numbers of unfamiliar people (schools, offices, etc).

I think women compare men within their social environment, so the tremendous expansion of our social environment has brought more women into contact with the higher percentiles of men, which raises their standards. I think there's also a gambling effect involved as well. When the social environment was small, a woman knew all of the men she was likely to get with, so she could make a choice among them. Now, women pass on good opportunities because a better opportunity "might" be out there among all the unfamiliar people accessible to us these days.

edit: Another thing, of course, is that women are not as pressured to choose because they earn their own money and are insulated against risk by the state. They can afford to have higher standards

Kaisha001 · 2020-07-11T23:01:35+00:00

Its not that men "don’t put effort into their looks" (just think of how many men go to the gym) rather the 80/20 rule (more of a rule of thumb than a hard line) is real though. And its not just dating apps, though they have made it much more apparent.

OKCupid is the most well known data set ( https://techcrunch.com/2009/11/18/okcupid-inbox-attractive/ was the easiest to find, the OP by OkCupid has been taking down, lol), but its been shown true across pretty much every app, and in nearly every study that analyzes this. The reality is, most women find most men unattractive. They try to dress it up 'but women still message men they find ugly' but that still doesn't change the dynamic. As you can see, its not until the higher levels of attractiveness that women and men are on equal footing.

And its not just that 'only 20% of males are attractive'. Its 20% of 'suitable males looking for a mate within similar demographics'. For example: a women who is a 3/10 sees a man who is objectively a 5/10 as the same level as her. The end result is that you end up with a lot of dissatisfied women and men. The thing is, this isn't a male problem, men are actually very good at rating women, they nailed a near perfect normal curve (slightly biased towards more attractive not less).

These guys were WAY ahead of their time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1ZJiBHh-Yw .

SomewhatOOTL · 2020-07-11T21:25:09+00:00

Women just have way way higher standards and are more superficial as well

throwawaym8l8k · 2020-07-11T22:02:34+00:00

I mean women do have higher standards compared to men, there is literally a biological imperative for them to have this so it makes sense. Reproduction for women involves a complete body transformation, possibly death and they have a limited supply of eggs so they have to be careful with who they sleep with to make sure they can provide for them and their child. On the flip side many men do not put too much effort into their looks as BP society tells them "looks don't matter/it's just confidence" etc. Truth is women value looks just about as much or higher than personality, with maybe status being the most important.

HappilyMrs · 2020-07-11T22:01:14+00:00

The pressure to make daily effort on hair, skin and style isn't there for men. I think a lot more men would be "successful" if they worked to be their most attractive selves

2020-07-12T01:45:29+00:00

I just find it funny how most men find most women to be attractive but for women it’s the complete opposite. Women only find 20% of men attractive according to OK Cupid’s statistics. So why is that?

Hypergamy and evolution

GullibleClassic1 · 2020-07-11T21:36:44+00:00

I really don’t understand what’s so outrageous about only finding 20% of men attractive, it lines well with my real life experience, walking down the street maybe only 20% of men I pass are attractive to me. Most people in general are average to below average looking, those who are attractive are a minority. Not all women will find the same 20% of men attractive too, believe or not some of us have different taste. I have friends who only find white or black guys attractive or who only like skinny guys or find guys with long hair attractive etc. It’s also lie that men find a wide variety of women attractive, when guys say that they are only talking about women between the ages 18-to maybe 30, which is not even close to being the majority of women.

kwalden2 · 2020-07-11T21:28:04+00:00

What if a guy lacks one trait, is that an automatic deal breaker?

No, no it was not a dealbreaker for me. I'm not perfect myself.

Women only find 20% of men attractive according to OK Cupid’s statistics. So why is that? Is it because women really do have high standards or is it just that most men don’t put effort into their looks?

It'a not a problem with men's looks. It's a problem with online dating ratios. If men pick 20% of a very small.bumber of female users, they wouldn't get very much use of online dating. Women, however, have a larger number of men to choose from in OLD. More women will be choosy on that platform, even choosing against men who might be readonably attractive in person.

rubbooyuri · 2020-07-11T23:02:44+00:00

Women aren’t desperate, that’s all. We’re not going to pick that old hot dog off the ground and eat it

Physiologist21 · 2020-07-11T21:31:26+00:00

Do you understand how a bell curve works? That's your answer.

psymaniax · 2020-07-12T05:27:06+00:00

 As I’ve seen from some of my female friend’s behaviours and experiences, it’s not actually about if a guy puts efforts into his looks or not but if they find him personally attractive or not(which btw is a very high bar to pass) and no amount of self looks care can make these girls fall for one. I’ve noticed that a lot of girls who have pretty flexible standards (or some might say low standards) do aim for the high but are okay with any decent guy because they themselves are pretty low-tier in the looks department. Now, I’ve also seen that the girls who do have got it good (ones having that high bar to pass) are very selective in who they’re attracted to. In multiple instances, I’ve encountered men who were at top of their social chain, 9-10s, perfect in every sense, intimidates all the other guys around him in sex appeal, been shot down by these girls. I still haven’t understood how men who are even acknowledged by other men that they are attractive are just rejected by some women. For what I’ve came to believe now is that most of the top-tier women are very selective in choosing partners, but the general census of someone’s look might not be their definition of sexy and thus, they go for their version of the top man, even if those guys are not much in men’s world.

I think that’s why we do see a lot of couples where for us, it looks like the women is compromising a lot on looks and the guy has won a lottery.

Workaholiconew · 2020-07-12T05:31:44+00:00

Both.

There is no point in investing only in looks as a man. So we separate where we think might be the most useful, like wealth, status, power, etc. Women may be more attracted to looks than many suppose, but no way near as much as men.

Many women here cannot even fathom not to caring about how much a guy earns of how prestigious is his situation for a guy you only gonna fuck that night and never see again. There is no way to invest in looks alone.

And don't forget, men have a comparatively limited amounts of resources at their disposal. Than women, so they wouldn't be able to invest much even if women were as visual as men.

And dont forget about how high expectations are women.

Women also are quite (in)famous for their absurdly high expectations, low investment of resources, and a very uncompromising attitudes. Something which is reflected inclusive in their economical and work market interactions. (Or any interaction with reality for that matter).

If you ever worked in retail, or in a workplace which is mostly women, you know what I am talking about.

taapy234 · 2020-07-12T08:10:40+00:00

Women constantly mistake their SMV with RMV

SMV- sexual market value

RMV- Relationship market value

Just like how employers abuse their employer dominated job market by taking advantage of struggling employees who desperately need a job, women abuse their female dating privilege and deliberately CHOOSE the unstable assholes and unavailable womanizers and players for dating during their prime youthful years. They call it their "hoe phase."

But once these young women get more and more old, they end up getting used to the chad's cock for all their adult lives that the concept of going near average man sounds disgusting to them. So they end up having the preferences of a 20 year old female while their real age is 30 and they no longer have that same effortless youthful privilege now.

Also its not that men are no longer putting any effort now... its just that they are RESPONDING to what women actually prefer.

I mean, why would an average man put any effort in being more attractive to a woman when this woman don't even bother with him for most of his twenties?

Why should an average man face the burden of "being marriage material" to a woman when she lived her hoe phase and her serial dating phase and her serial short term relationship phase for all her 20's?

Why aren't we encouraging more women to be "relationship material"?

Its 2020. The cultural messages geared towards men is loud and clear: Women no longer want a stable man. They just want the top 20% men to commit to her,and if that strategy of hers fails, "settle down" to have that social status that comes with the title "wife." by conning that poor desperate beta guy who's clueless about the gynocentrism.

TechnicalMight0 · 2020-07-12T08:13:31+00:00

Women don't put more effort in the way they look than men do, at least not in the areas where it actually matters for sexual attractiveness. Sure women paint their nails but that doesn't make them sexually attractive to men, meanwhile they're just as overweight as men, to give an example.

abysmalworm · 2020-07-11T21:41:06+00:00

I think the 80% 20% thing really just represents online dating. Women are usually approached in real life and they get matches very easily so they feel like they’ve got nothing to lose on dating sites and they swipe right on the most attractive guys. Men, on the other hand, are usually the approachers so they’ll settle a bit on dating sites to maximize their odds. Online, you’re forced to quickly judge someone based on their looks. In real life, when you get to know people, personality is much more of a priority.

I’ve used a dating app and I was swiping right on the cutest guys because it felt like I had nothing to lose. In real life, I’ve liked guys ranging from below average to above average because I know their personalities.

To conclude, most women have high standards on dating apps because they have a different approach than men, but in real life they’re much more lenient on looks because personality comes into play.

uwuawooga · 2020-07-11T21:53:31+00:00

I think the reason why is because most guys on dating sites don’t present themselves very well. A lot of them have bad quality pictures, poor fashion sense etc. Even if they’re not ugly it can still make them look like they are.

Most men I see on apps are like this but when I switch to seeing females, they honestly look much better. Even if they’re not attractive, they still look like they give a shit about their appearance and at least shower or something

Mimoxs · 2020-07-11T21:23:23+00:00

The thing people forget is that source. You're getting your ideas on women's preferences and standards from a dating app. Dating apps are the prime place to find very picky, shallow people. Most women don't need dating apps.

darksoldierk · 2020-07-11T22:15:02+00:00

Didn't you just answer your own question?

Look, think of it like this, lets say you have 2 100lb bags that you need to carry for 2 km without dropping them. If I told you you only had 1 hour to walk 1 of those bags somewhere that was 2 km away, well, that probably won't be a big problem. You can probably do that. If I told you, you have 1 hour to get both bags somewhere that was 2 km away, well, all of a sudden, that's a much harder thing to do. You could try to carry both, but you'll probably fail and drop both or one.

So, like you said, women want wealthy, ambitious, career driven men, that, in and of itself, is 1 100 lb bag. Then women want guys who know how to be fashionable, how to take care of their skin, to be muscular, charismatic, confident that's another 100 lb bag. And women want guys to relocate both of those 100 lb bags a couple km away, at the same time. That's not possible. Unless you inherited wealth, or you got lucky, then being wealthy especially in this day and age where wealth is basically reached it's maturity stage, is a feat that requires one's full effort. Don't forget, if a woman makes 70k a year, for her, a man making 70k a year isn't wealthy. She wants him to make 100+ a year. In order to do that, he needs to study, he needs to work long hours, he needs to deal with stress and workloads that are worth that kind of money. Those kinds of jobs usually don't leave much time for men to research which product makes his skin just hte right level of soft, and to go tanning.

On the other hand, researching fashion, having a large, nice wardrobe, always wearing clothes that match, finding the right haircut, the right shave, the right shoes, the right shirts, the right pants, learning which haircut, shave, shoes, shirts, pants are not only appropriate, but "fashionable" in any given circumstance is a full time job all on it's own.

I've known good looking guys, who've learned how to pick up women, but they never put a lot of focus on their careers, they make an average income and all, but they aren't wealthy. They knew how to talk to women, how to get women in bed, but when women found out that they aren't wealthy, or ambitious in terms of careers etc, they left. ON the other hand, I known men who focused on their careers, they were the guys who never showed up at parties in university because they were spending 14 hours a day studying. They are the guys that are now engineers, architects, directors, they make bank, but in order to make bank, they never really learned how to speak to women, how to pick them, how to dress, how cut their hair, or how to shave in a way that makes them look good. And they now have problems.

Women have high standards relative to the standards of men. Men typically don't care about ambition, or wealth, or careers when it comes to women. Women know that men primarily care about looks, and that is the only thing that women need to focus on. It's also why men who inherit often have an easier time with women. If they don't need to work on becoming wealthy, then they have time to work on looking good, which results in them having an easier time with women. Women only have 1, 100 lb bag to walk across those km, they don't have 2 bags, they aren't being expected to juggle 2 bags, men are. That's why women have high standards.

woxmintari · 2020-07-11T22:58:56+00:00

Women have a lower sex drive so they can be more picky.

Biologically sex is more risky for women.

Women are very unlikely to dumpster dive.

azngirl7689 · 2020-07-12T06:08:01+00:00

Men don’t try and then expect us to kiss their feet in gratitude for bathing and getting haircuts. It’s easier to blame others than fix the internal issue. I’m not a hypocrite, I’ve been there before. So don’t @ me.

rainbowsurge444 · 2020-07-12T01:26:41+00:00

Men dont put in effort. Not all women want a Chad. Some men don't seem to realize that a shower and new shoes, or a fresh haircut really bring out confidence. Idt it's so much about genetic attractiveness, but rather it's about presenting your best self. Women love that shit. Excuse confidence that's not a peacock show.

trudith · 2020-07-12T01:54:36+00:00

Most men put minimal effort in, if any.

lilastr · 2020-07-11T22:15:55+00:00

I think it’s a small combination of both.

I mean for Christ’s sake a lot of men don’t even notice how bad their nails look.

goblitovfiyah · 2020-07-12T01:34:49+00:00

Before I met my now-boyfriend I didn't find any men attractive because I know that sure a guy could look nice but I have high/specific standards when it comes to personality and the chances of the average Joe meeting those are not very high so I didn't even bother. Thought my current bf looked scary when I first met him. Actually got to know him a bit and turns out he was a really nice guy, ended up falling for him so I asked him out.

My other friends have boyfriends who they think are Soo handsome but I look at them and wonder what the hell is so handsome about them. Same thing with me I find my boyfriend so handsome yet our mutual friends roast him and call him ugly all the time.

So I guess it all boils down to personal preference. I myself am bi and I wouldn't feel anything when you put a blonde white girl in front of me. Latinas and brunettes however...

There's someone for everyone, none of my boyfriends have been rich (most of them earned less than me, my current so pays food and I pay the rest of the bills) so wealth isn't a factor for me at all as I believe equality is spending equally. In fact I would prefer not to have a wealthy boyfriend as I wouldn't feel comfortable with someone spending a lot of money on me as they can use it as leverage against me in arguments.

Almost none of my boyfriends were muscular as muscles=gym, gym=something I don't get into.

I know a few women (coworkers) however that do talk about how they want a "tall rich handsome man" but keep in mind these women I know also happen to not be very smart, are wildly incompetent at their jobs and expect everything to be handed to them. Whether this is simply a coincidence I'm not sure.

So if you do find a woman rejecting you for stupid things such as wealth, height, status, hair/jawlines etc then she wasn't even worth her time.

I spent a long time being single because I knew I wouldn't be happy with any of the people that did take an interest in me. I'm glad I waited because now I'm with someone who truly cares for me and makes me so happy. Don't settle for someone who treats your gender as disposable.

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JesterMcGavin · 2020-07-11T22:59:12+00:00

dylang92 · 2020-07-11T23:42:40+00:00

Kind of a Column A/Column B sort of deal. I think that there are just some people where their maximum looks ceiling is just going to be mediocre even after putting in tons of effort, but fact of the matter is that many men just don’t even try thus allowing men who do try to stand out. Though, if these men who didn’t try put in just above the minimum amount of effort, they’d probably go up a couple of points. Unless you live in a city, then you’ll find the vast majority of men out effort into their appearance

slavicgypsygirl · 2020-07-11T23:44:53+00:00

Women have really high standards, myself included, bc men do put effort into their looks

Iluvalmonds83 · 2020-07-12T02:23:18+00:00

Looking at it from a biological imperative view, I think men are becoming too feminine, which turns women off. It’s not so much about just grooming/fashion. Being muscular through engaging in physical labor or fitness, being aggressive or making the first move and “hunting” In general for a woman, having high testosterone that gives you a square jaw amongst other manly traits are things Alot of guys don’t have or put effort in. And I would argue that it’s not 100% their fault. Western society is telling them that their masculinity is toxic and bad and actively promote feminizing the current generation of young men.

John_Smith_2020 · 2020-07-12T23:36:22+00:00

I think men just dont put enough care into their looks, and when they do, many are called gay for it. Look at the tiny proportion of men who wear makeup or look after their skin, compared to women. Look at the difference in clothing or grooming between normal men and women. Of course there are exceptions but as a general trend, women tend to put more care in to their appearance.

Business-Welder · 2020-07-13T02:42:35+00:00

Find the ugliest woman you can and make a tinder profile with her pictures. You may get fewer messages than a average looking woman, but you'll still get a lot, a lot more than an average looking man, and almost definitely more that even a top tier man.

Women don't really put that much effort into their looks to attract men. Men generally don't give two shits about "split ends" and other bullshit marketers come up with. Women are just consumerists, they consume "beauty products" for the sake of consuming.

violetraysgen · 2020-07-14T00:24:54+00:00

If guys have beer bellies and titties then most of us females wont be attracted to them.

exodvs · 2020-07-12T00:08:14+00:00

Definitely the latter. I am far from an Adonis, but whenever I shave the sides of my jaw and comb my hair, women who've just met me tell me I'm handsome and women tell me they like like me. This is with slightly yellow teeth and a caveman-looking unibrow.

thetruthishere_ · 2020-07-12T00:21:32+00:00

I dont base things on an OKcupid study were most of its user base is under 32, heavier in the under 28 and heavier in male users.

How accurate is it really?

I will note men of all ages dress like crap and dont put in any effort. I see this outside apps/social media. I dont use apps, facebook, IG, Snap, etc. Its what I see out in life.

Men with pubic hair messy beards and dressy sloppy is abundant. What do they expect looking so scruffy?

NinjaOfTheSouth · 2020-07-12T00:00:29+00:00

Both. Since most guys looks are pretty ass to women. And guys in general don’t give a fuck about how they look(no incentive to look good).

GGMcThroway · 2020-07-12T16:51:18+00:00

The latter. Why should a woman want to date a man that doesn't put the same amount of effort into himself that she does herself?

Also lmao at all the guys here acting like women are men. Newsflash idiots: Women can at least become attracted to a guy over time if he actually has something worth liking (charm, wit, stability, etc...). Men are literally so superficial that they won't even give a chance to a woman they don't instantly find attractive. His attraction won't develop over time. Either the woman will change his appearance to his liking, or she'll never have a chance no matter how compatible they are otherwise.

stephker3914 · 2020-07-11T22:59:31+00:00

I think it's a solid mix of both of those ideas. There do seem to be a lot of men who do not put enough effort into their appearance, because for some poor reason, it's viewed as more masculine to not care as much about looks, while this directly results in having less sex, which is not very masculine. It's a bit ironic. Women, though, most of the time, have such a overinflated choice of men that it's hysterical. You see way more couples that have a more attractive man than woman, rather than vice versa. Most of the time though, couples tend to be pretty close to each other in attractiveness.

Title	Do women really have high standards or is it just that most men don’t put effort into their looks?
Author	Mayhem977
Upvotes	34
Comments	127
Date	July 11, 2020 9:18 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/hphyl7/do_women_really_have_high_standards_or_is_it_just/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/do-women-really-have-high-standards-or-is-it-just.712932 https://theredarchive.com/post/712932

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