[Q4All] Is one gender more likely to know their “league” in dating than the other?

macbethnjane · 2020-12-08T20:46:00+00:00

Feminism pretends it helps all women, but in reality only helps pretty girls. Telling all girls they are high value, means largely speaking only high value girls benefit.

wtknight · 2020-12-08T19:23:47+00:00

Hot women know that they’re attractive. Hot men know that they’re hot. If you add in things status or charisma, men will know when they’re high status or high charisma too.

Ugly women know that they’re ugly, even if some of them try to live in denial in order to protect their feelings. Ugly men know that they’re ugly.

Average men usually think that they’re more attractive than they are. Average women usually have no idea of their exact level of attractiveness and as a result are often insecure about their looks, which is how most men judge women’s attractiveness.

So overall, I think that it’s about equal as the extremes of both genders often know their attractiveness “league”, while those in the middle can’t seem to realize that they’re “average” for one reason or another.

ChibsFilipTelfordd · 2020-12-08T19:03:54+00:00

Men, because we are the ones who test it directly by approaching. Men determine their own league, to some extent, by deciding who to approach. Women just get to choose from whatever comes, and have no guarantee that whoever approaches sees her as a peer and will stick around, or is just aiming for an easy bang.

Some dudes are delusional and go for women plainly beyond their reach, but sometimes shooting your shot works out against the odds. Either way, men experience the competition directly, and most figure out how to calibrate their approach or realize what they need to improve in order to get the girls they want.

The trade off for women's passivity is that they ultimately have little control over who actually approaches, and thus who they can realistically get. Men are the independent variable, women the dependent.

majani · 2020-12-08T19:13:50+00:00

In my experience, most people know their 'league' and stick to it. The red pill claims about women reaching for the stars are overblown. Most arguments about whether someone is batting out of their league usually involves one high-tier normie and one low-tier normie, which in my opinion is a silly argument since they're both normies

monopoly_life · 2020-12-08T19:18:26+00:00

EDIT: sorry I almost forgot, attractiveness and self esteem are very close in the human mind, right? So... I think both genders use their social rank. That's it.

.

Men can change their market value so their psyche is motivated to have a realistic assessment of their situation, and even accept it since they can tell themselves they are responsible for it.

Women instead are passive and stuck, so it's of lesser use to them to be self aware. So, to them, it's way more convenient to live in fantasy world, so that they can better cope with it.

Last but not least, women grow sorrounded by young bluepilled simps and get lied to by players later on, making the distinction between fantasy and reality even harder to grasp.

So i'd say men are more aware.

mannyso · 2020-12-08T19:54:46+00:00

I’ve had similar experiences growing up. I would say the attractive members of both genders know what they bring to the table. Anyone with family/friends who are significantly attractive can see the constant affirmations these people get.

It’s a bit ambiguous for the rest of the population but I don’t think women are any more likely to know than men. Some women realize their “league” as they get older and you can clearer see this when you compare their partners over time. The opposite happens too but I notice that these women don’t necessarily “raise the bar” even with that capability.

For men with unfounded high standards they just remain single which is an answer in itself.

GridReXX · 2020-12-08T20:48:30+00:00

I think most people want to and/or will go for what they desire and sometimes what they desire is far fetched.

I think men live and die by “leagues” and “1-10” and other one-dimensional tiered rubrics.

I think women go by a loose “it” or “not it” schema.

Because men enjoy more granular ratings systems they’re probably more aware of where they fall on ‘something’ even if it isn’t holistic. I think it benefits men to overly care about this in a way it doesn’t immediately benefits women.

I think women are more socialized in an intuitive sense so most women know where they fall too. Doesn’t mean they won’t punch up physical/status wise because sometimes charm and wiles makeup for that.

SonicBackScratcher · 2020-12-08T21:17:28+00:00

The older you get the more, at least in my case, you realize that league doesn't really exist.

There were women "unobtainable" to me, but others who were very similar who were not. One wasn't out of my league just not in the same pattern of what each other found attractive.

Worrying about league is just limiting yourself.

SherbertBacon · 2020-12-08T22:15:21+00:00

I can only speak for me as a guy, but I definitely knew VERY early who the cute guys were and who weren’t just based off how adults and my peers treated them

I honestly had no idea until high school, and only after someone explicitly told me. I knew some boys were popular and others weren't, but I assumed it was almost like a matter of choice—like you chose to be in the popular group or not.

Do you think women are more likely to know their “league” or how attractive they are in comparison to men?

I think it depends on how self-aware the person is, and how aware they are of what makes them attractive to the people they want to attract.

Cases in point:

Nice guys. They think their niceness is an attractiveness multiplier—it isn't.
Women who get too much attention in OLD—they confuse any attention for positive attention.
Rich/hot boring dudes—plenty of men think they should automatically be drowning in women just because they make well into a six-figure income/look good. If the rest of their personality sucks, it won't go far.
The Bland Jan who somehow wants a triple 6 supermodel millionaire.
Weebs who want famous gamer girls. Gamer girls don't go for avid gamers. They go for really hot guys who do a few nerdy things that can support their social media existence.

Also keep in mind that there aren't "rules" to this. Most people don't think "Ah they're an 8 but I'm a lowly 6, no point even trying." Most people think "Damn look at that 8, wouldn't it be awesome if they were into me?" and then try to see if it happens. Or, "Damn look at that 8, I may be a 6 in looks, but I've got a stunning personality, surely with time they may come to adore me for that."

League "spooking" doesn't happen until later into the relationship. After the sparks settle down a bit this person starts to take inventory, or the "higher league person" realizes (s)he's settling, and that's when things break apart.

Cimorene86 · 2020-12-08T19:10:52+00:00

I still have no idea where I belong, and doubt I ever will.

It's pretty easy to tell for other women, and men, like if someone would be considered a 3 or a 8 or a 5 by societal standards. Even I can make that determination, even if I don't personally agree with it. Also, the halo effect is real, so yeah, if you're attractive people, especially men, tend to be nicer towards you.

The very weird thing is that people are nice to me but I'm not hot, definitely not an 8, 9, or 10. So maybe it's kinda like Roald Dahl said;

A person who has good thoughts cannot ever be ugly. You can have a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have good thoughts they will shine out of your face like sunbeams and you will always look lovely.

Perhaps this is a version of "game", except it's just being nice, friendly, and smiling/nodding at people so they know you've acknowledged them. So it's charisma based halo effect.

Kaisha001 · 2020-12-08T19:37:31+00:00

Ok... lets go over this again: http://archive.is/489UV

OkCupid blog that I thought by now everyone was aware of (there are many other examples of similar data sets from OLD, from real dating, studies, etc... but this is the most well known).

As you can see, the male -> female measuring is dead on what we would expect. A near perfect normal distribution with a slight negative bias (it's easier to be ugly than beautiful).

Then we see the male -> female messaging. Now if we assume that men generally will message girls similar or higher than them in attractiveness (up to some reasonable limit), we get exactly what we would expect to see. That second graph clearly shows that men not only rate women quite accurately, they clearly know where they sit as well in relation to the women they are messaging. If men were to overrate their appearance (as BPs always suggest/state) then that M->F messaging function would look depressed. For example, if men (on average) rated themselves 1 point higher than they actually are, the whole M->F messaging function would be near flat until the 1st point. Also the drop-off at the end shows that men are not completely delusional, and aren't shooting completely out of their league (again on average) as the blog and BPs like to claim.

Then we get to the females...

The F->M attractiveness function shows that women find 80% of men are 'below average' attractiveness (ugly), but message them anyways. Now the blog states:

As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable.

This is funny, because the M->F messaging function does not at all show the pattern that guys are 'pursuing the all-but-unattainable'. But they gotta somehow sell this to get more women on the site, so they got to hamster this away somehow.

TBH I'm not sure what conclusions one can draw from the F->M functions other than 'something's fucky'.

Perhaps it shows that most women see themselves as ugly, and hence are trying to pair up with what they see as equally ugly men. Or perhaps they just like validation from men only slightly uglier than them? Whatever the explanation, we can conclude that women are clearly NOT evaluating attractiveness in a normal or expected fashion.

Sir_manalot · 2020-12-08T19:02:13+00:00

It depends on how they are treated really.

Ex: spoiled people will not know there league until they stop being spoiled.

The closest you can get to answer is looking at that okcupid study really. Men were very realistic in what was and wasn’t above average while women found 80% of men below average.

But that again could be argued that is because women are spoiled in this regard.

mensahi41 · 2020-12-08T19:04:59+00:00

I know my league because men never let me forget what league I'm in.

I can't show my face on Reddit because I get mean private messages saying that I should get good at sucking dick to make up for my face.

Matt_Door · 2020-12-08T20:31:34+00:00

Men face more rejection up front, so I think that helps them peg where they are in terms of desirability. I know when I was just a young door starting out in the dating world I pitched it high and recalibrated as I got rejected and found my level, not without confusion of course, but without the added confusion of someone finding out later after some investment and vulnerability that you didn’t pitch it at the right level, that’s got to mess your radar up

2020-12-08T22:32:39+00:00

For men, my experience has been that it's much like the Dunning-Kruger effect. Not the meme that sprang up around it, but the actual thing. Essentially, less attractive men already know they're lower on the scale, but either don't know or won't accept just how low on the scale they are. Usually they have a false idea that their character and other virtues (intelligence, humor, hobbies, etc.) matter more than they do, believing they serve as a means to convince a partner to opt-in, rather than as criteria by which partners might choose to opt-out. So they won't typically try to play in the majors, but they'll still be trying to bat out of their league.

Honestly, I'd imagine it's no different for women.

rft24 · 2020-12-08T19:23:49+00:00

i would think it’s men who are more likely to know. even bottom-shelf women have men who go after them, even if there’s only few of them and it’s just for pussy; so those women probably think they’re not horribly ugly (even if they are) since they still get some attention. i don’t think it’s the same for men at all.

i think attractive people tend to know their league the most because the world never lets beautiful people forget that they’re beautiful.

SaBahRub · 2020-12-08T20:13:38+00:00

Both sexes try to “punch up”, although men are logically going to be less aware and less discriminate

geyejoe7 · 2020-12-08T22:15:05+00:00

Men.

Men assume they know their leauge, and sometimes, to some men, that underestimate themselves too much, a good looking woman comes into their life, and they assume they're lucky, when in reality they probably have a lot to offer, that they just don't value the same as her looks.

Some men are very confident, and go even above their leauge. Some score, some don't.

Men generally know better how to recognize their own leauge. But they can be wrong.

Women on the other hand either think they're garbage, or completely overestimate themselves by a lot.

Some cute or very beautiful women have insecurities that make them think less of themselves. It's usually those women that don't have big butts or breasts, but pretty faces. They just assume men want Barbie dolls and are insecure. But they eventually find out men don't really care.

However, most women disregard their own looks, and assume they can get anyone. Especially overweight women.

Overweight women are generally very unattractive. You'd have to have an incredibly beautiful face to be considered a catch if you're a fat woman. And dress incredibly.

Sufficient-Ad-3586 · 2020-12-09T03:58:50+00:00

I know a girl who is currently engaged to her fiancé and boyfriend of seven years. They met when she was 18 and he was 21.

To this day I have no idea how the hell she agreed to go out with him. At the time she was still young and she only dated the hot tall guys with abs and solid muscle and she was attractive enough to pull them in. This guy (her now fiancé) was tall but a good 400 pounds with noticeable thinning hair. He wasn’t a bad a guy but far from what a decently attractive 18 year old would ever consider. He doesn’t come from money either so it wasn’t that.

They are now engaged all these years later so I guess sometimes it is possible to score well outside your league.

2020-12-09T06:36:11+00:00

Men tend to overestimate themselves, women tend to underestimate themselves

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rubbooyuri · 2020-12-08T21:19:09+00:00

The more socially aware one? Is this not logical?

On the other hand, “awareness” doesn’t necessarily convey an advantage

MasterTeacher123 · 2020-12-09T00:01:48+00:00

[deleted]

Suck-Less · 2020-12-09T02:27:55+00:00

You mean what gender is more likely to think their self worth is on a scale when compared to others? Talk about their sexual interests in terms of looks matching and in/out of their league? Men are probably more likely to use these terms, women are more likely to act out on those scales. Only women will date a man because he has a bunch of women going after him and strictly because “if those women want him, he must be awesome.”

It’s garbage. Just excuses for why you can’t get the object of your attention. Good looking can be a nightmare, ugly can be a great person. There are no leagues and you’re nuts if you look for a a date based on your “looks matching.”

WilliamWyattD · 2020-12-09T09:10:27+00:00

I think that traditionally women knew their league better than men. The male attraction calculus is simpler, even when you complicate things by throwing in relationship standards. Women were also traditionally better at interpersonal relations and generally thought more about these types of things.

Men, on the other hand, were rewarded for confidence, which includes false confidence. The female attraction calculus was also more complex than the male.

Nowadays, it is harder to say. Right now, in a new more gender equal society, everything is a bit out of whack and trying to find equilibrium. Women are getting some crazy cultural messaging about what men really want, and have lost touch with a lot of their traditional understanding. That said, it isn't as if men are getting the sanest cultural messaging either. So I think it is really hard to say today.

Asbelowsoaboveme · 2020-12-09T17:49:51+00:00

Men absolutely have an easier time. Their smv is the same as their rmv, if a woman wants to have sex with them, they also want an ltr. And that is SO much less confusing than the female dynamic.

popthatpill · 2020-12-11T13:49:05+00:00

Is one gender more likely to know their “league” in dating than the other?

Good question. Is it the sex that has to do all the approaching and deal with endless rejection, or the sex who doesn't figure out until their thirties that being able to get sex with a guy of a certain level doesn't mean you can marry a guy of that level? Gorsh, I guess we'll never figure out the answer to this one.

“Women know where they stand on dating totem pole more than men. They are much more likely to know their league in terms of how hot they are. Trust me, we know the pretty girls and whose not”

A good example of the "women are wonderful effect" - attributing positive characterics to women without evidence. And there is counter-evidence, actually - as others in this post have pointed out, it contradicts that infamous OkCupid blog post from 2009.

Holler4Heller · 2020-12-11T20:27:49+00:00

In the context of how men actually choose who to spend their life with the concept of leagues is largely one borne of female entitlement. That said women tend to be overly generous in their personal assessments of themselves.

2020-12-08T19:18:08+00:00

I would assume everyone thinks they are average.

I think of myself as average in every way. If I excel in one area, I fail in another. Averages out.

TheBookOfSeil · 2020-12-08T19:09:11+00:00

No?

This would be a class issue. The more attractive people are more likely to know their league than the less attractive people would. The stats that I've seen show that less attractive people tend to overestimate their attractiveness while more attractive people can judge their own and others more accurately. Not sure why that is but it seems to be true from an observational standpoint.

xFallacyx69 · 2020-12-08T20:12:13+00:00

It’s obviously men... as the more thirsty gender we rarely have sex with or date people out of our league...

Title	[Q4All] Is one gender more likely to know their “league” in dating than the other?
Author	MasterTeacher123
Upvotes	24
Comments	139
Date	December 8, 2020 6:51 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/k9a9vj/q4all_is_one_gender_more_likely_to_know_their/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4all-is-one-gender-more-likely-to-know-their.732045 https://theredarchive.com/post/732045

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