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Woman smothers baby daughter to death, throws her in creek, lies to police - walks free after 'depression diagnosis'

Cabbagepant

November 29, 2017
3214 upvotes
/r/MensRights
https://www.3aw.com.au/woman-walks-free-after-pleading-guilty-to-killing-baby-daughter/
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Post Information
Title Woman smothers baby daughter to death, throws her in creek, lies to police - walks free after 'depression diagnosis'
Author

Cabbagepant

Upvotes 3214
Comments 294
Date November 29, 2017 3:52 PM UTC
(8 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/7ge87r/woman_smothers_baby_daughter_to_death_throws_her/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/woman-smothers-baby-daughter-to-death-throws-her.910239
https://theredarchive.com/post/910239
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17 upvotes
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Comments

[–][deleted] 552 points553 points554 points 8 years ago (45 children) | Copy Link

The maximum jail term for infanticide is five years.

wait wat.

[–]AAKurtz 130 points131 points132 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I thought the samething. I don't get it either.

[–]TheCanadianEmpire 121 points122 points123 points 8 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link

Infanticide isn't that simple. At least in Canada, it isn't just anyone killing a baby. There's a strict guideline to what constitutes as infanticide and it usually has to do with a mentally unstable mother killing their newborn as a result of giving birth or something like that.

The bigger debate should be whether or not we should take into account mental illness in court when someone commits a crime. We let off murderers if they're diagnosed as schizophrenic so this article doesn't surprise me one bit.

[–][deleted] 166 points167 points168 points 8 years ago (37 children) | Copy Link

Well the point in this sub is that depression would never fly if a man committed a crime as a result, even if he killed his own child.

[–]TheCanadianEmpire 71 points72 points73 points 8 years ago* (30 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I agree. The definition of infanticide itself inherently benefits women. In Canada it is defined as a woman intentionally murdering her child while "not fully recovered from the effects of giving birth to the child and by reason thereof or of the effect of lactation consequent on the birth of the child her mind is then disturbed".

If a man kills his kid, it'd be labelled as a homicide which carries a heavier sentence.

[–]Alyscupcakes 18 points19 points20 points 8 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

Are you talking about Postpartum psychosis & postpartum depression?

[–]TheCanadianEmpire 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

Hmmm, I think postpartum psychosis? Not sure. I'm definitely not an expert in this area.

[–]Alyscupcakes 23 points24 points25 points 8 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

Ah. Okay so that makes some sense as to why men can not be charged/plead guilty of infanticide. Since it is specific to the physical/mental issues concerning pregnancy causing an infant death.

If that is the case, how is this a 'men's rights' issue? Or is this a mental health/illness rights issue?

[–]deegan79 28 points29 points30 points 8 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

I think (and I could be wrong, I’m neither a lawyer nor a psychologist) it has more to do with the fact that men will receive a much harsher sentence than a woman for the same crime. Men don’t get to cry mental illness, and get a slap on the wrist, but women do. Frankly, I don’t care what you call it, but if you kill someone, there should be no difference in the sentencing based on gender.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I think the distinction that u/Alyscupcakes is trying to make is that men do not undergo the various hormonal changes and consequences of depression and giving birth. That being said, if we take that logic to be valid, then what do we do with men who are clinically diagnosed with depression that kill their own children (or other people in general)? Do we let them off with the same light sentence? Technically its the same shit since the death of an individual is influenced by the poor mental state of the murderer.

[–]Alyscupcakes 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Correct. I believe this to be a mental health rights issue. And the justice system is horrible for those with mental illnesses.

For this particular case, it was 'easier' for her to plea guilty to a crime designed for those with a very specific mental condition caused by a very specific medical condition. (Notably a time limited condition)

Men, and other women who didn't have a baby recently couldn't claim the same crime. Does the acute or chronic nature of their mental health influence their court sentencing judgement? Does the justice system have a suitable way to rehabilitate crimes committed under the haze of mental illness? Are we doing enough to prevent mental illness from causing deaths?

I believe there is a lot that can be done in this area. Unfortunately people/society pressures for harsh punishment and not rehabilitation. (As seen in the comments that suggest this women should have a horrible life/die/die a horrible death/beat up/get more jail time). Versus appropriate treatment, therapy and reintroduced into society with her mental illness under control/gone.

[–]flyingwolf 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

men do not undergo the various hormonal changes and consequences of depression and giving birth

While that may be what the user is saying. The user is wrong. Men in fact do experience Paternal Postnatal Depression. Here are some scholarly articles on it. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Paternal+Postnatal+Depression

Here is a website dedicated to this issue.

[–]tolkienlover 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

But isn’t the difference here that about 20% of women are affected by post partum depression, whereas no men are because they don’t give birth? The woman probably got off on because she was suffering from PPD. If no men suffer from PPD because they don’t give birth, how would it be fair for them to also get off on a light sentence?

[–]Jammersault 16 points17 points18 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Does the fact that a big string of life burdens that cause depression and mental illness in men come into it at all? Apart from the fact that fathers can struggle emotionally after the birth of children too, there are shit loads of things that don't affect women that have disastrous affects on the mental health of men. It's possible to attatch some kind of mental illness to most crimes in a round about way. So wouldn't it be fair that we cut short by half the sentence of every man in jail on the basis that male jails are a hotbed of mental health issues?

[–]fusion_xgen 30 points31 points32 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I think the point he is trying to make is that a man could still have legitimate mental issues and still not get a comparable sentence.

[–]0Fsgivin 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Are we pretending fathers can not experience severe depression or anxiety because of the birth of a child? Really?

[–]pvtshoebox 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

20% of women are affected by post partum depression, whereas no men are because they don’t give birth

You are making an assumption, that men don't suffer from depression after birth, based on the decades long consensus reached by... not actually asking men anything, telling them that their role is to support the mother, who may herself be depressed so you better man up.

[–]Endless_Summer 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But isn’t the difference here that about 20% of women are affected by post partum depression.

He was talking about psychosis. You're moving goalposts with meaningless, unsourced numbers.

[–]Alyscupcakes -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I believe then the real issue is mental health rights/ mental illness rights in regards to the justice system.

Understandably postpartum mental illnesses are.... 'Short term' and can be resolved with time & possibly medication. So the light sentence is to reflect the loss of mental control but also the relatively time limited period of the condition.

For everyone else, with mental illnesses that cause one to commit a murder they do have other routes they could take for a limited/lowered/lesser sentence. But it comes down to how the justice system works. One needs to prove mental un-fitness at the time of the crime. It can be much more difficult as there may not be a clear direct medically induced cause of ones actions. Justice is a fickle bitch. Often political (for judges and prosecutors who are elected... And sometimes even the mayor can influence prosecutors) and going for 'easy' targets as a peacock show of 'good at their jobs'. There are a lot of factors to consider with court cases and sentencing.

As proven time and time again, money is your best defense in a courtroom.

[–]skellhella 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Nope you're wrong. Studies show that males can also suffer from severe depression/etc. after their child is born.

So you're just making up excuses for women to kill babies. That may sound harsh, but it's true.

[–]Mode1961 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It all comes down to this for me.

"When women kill we analyze why, when men kill we demonize and don't care why".

We had a Colonel in the Canadian Armed Forces a few years ago who killed two women, he was heavily investigated for past crimes and no evidence was found that he had commited other murders. He also took panties from 'random' houses etc. All very deviant behaviour. YET to my knowledge no one has investigated why this man, a highly decorated colonel would 'suddenly' stoop to this behaviour. The 'weird' part was that he was also on very heavy pain killers for back pain and other drugs.

Now, I believe if this had been a woman who suddenly went off the rails like this everyone would have been looking for a cause.

[–]Alyscupcakes 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Actually I was saying that this is a mental health issue. As in ALL individuals with mental illnesses should receive better treatment/better rights.

The justice system does have a route for people with mental illnesses to receive a lighter/lower/reduced sentence. However one has to prove their mental unfitness.

Postpartum illnesses have a very clear and direct medical cause, and a limited time frame. Fortunately and unfortunately for fathers, it isn't as common or medically clear. So it might be more difficult to prove your mental state as a father in a courtroom.

"It may sound harsh, but"... your best defense in a courtroom will always be money.

[–]skellhella 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Ok fair enough. I completely agree that people with mental health problems should be offered support.

But how do you feel about the massive gender gap in terms of criminal "justice"?

[–]Ader_anhilator 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like women should be required to have check-ins with a psych to ensure mental stability if this is a real thing.

[–]DontTrustRedditors 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think a separate 'infanticide' charge is defensible in any way.

When someone is found not guilty due to mental defect in the US, they are held indefinitely, not for a some less-bound period. This woman would probably never see daylight again here.

[–]thehunter699 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I feel like the law shouldn't be bound by gender, but that's just me.

[–]williamwchuang -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I have to admit that only women can get post partum depression.

[–]Ultramegasaurus 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

"Regular" depression and the myriad of other mental illnesses can hit men too.

Seriously, anybody who murders a child obviously has some sort of mental illness, but why is only female-exclusive "post partum depression" an excuse?

[–]Mackowatosc 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

At least where I live, mental health.can be, and frequently is basis for lesser penalties in the court, no matter the gender. No idea on how it looks in the US tho.

[–]DontTrustRedditors 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Kind of, but some of these women are being let off for post-partum depression long after their hormones should have normalized.

Many of these women simply can't hack parenthood, and kill their kids as an escape, not due to post-partum depression, which shouldn't still be hitting them years later.

[–]flyingwolf 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You would be wrong saying it though.

http://postpartummen.com/

There is a huge gap is knowledge in thinking that men do not get postnatal depression.

[–]misfortunecookies 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Murderers aren't "let off" if they're diagnosed schizophrenic, they are sentenced to an indefinite amount of time in a psychiatric facility. This can mean they're incarcerated for much longer than 'vanilla' murderers, just in a psychiatric facility instead of prison.

[–]JackBond1234 20 points21 points22 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Just a few years earlier, and you can get it tax funded.

[–]Pz5 -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The judge should be thrown in jail for shielding a criminal

[–]DrSpacemanSpliff -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I would assume it's so that people admit the crime rather than say the baby is missing and wasting resources.

It's why I agree with child molesters getting medium sentences, because if the punishment were incredibly severe, they would just kill the kid to try to cover it up.

[+]H0boHumpinSloboBabe -11 points-10 points-9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Its because the kid is new and the parents arent that attached to her yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InLfUMjyKNo

[–]ripndipp 64 points65 points66 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The maximum jail term for infanticide is five years.

wut

[–]Ultramegasaurus 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

They had to come up with a law to grant mothers pussy passes for murdering their children.

[–]kireol 591 points592 points593 points 8 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

Teach women not to kill children

[–]Cabbagepant[S] 395 points396 points397 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Misogynist bigot.

Teach babies not to give mothers depression.

[–]martin59825 135 points136 points137 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Teach babies not to give mothers depression.

We’ve reached a point where I wouldn’t be surprised if someone said and actually meant that lol

[–]chadwickofwv 52 points53 points54 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Only if the child was a boy.

[–]Thousand-Miles 21 points22 points23 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The real life pro tip is in the comments

[–]Goatsac 26 points27 points28 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

/r/MomsKillingChildren

[–]Tiiimmmbooo 15 points16 points17 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Man that is depressing...

[–]sneakpeekbot 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Here's a sneak peek of /r/MomsKillingChildren [NSFW] using the top posts of all time!

#1: Florida Mom Kills Kids for "Talking Back," | 0 comments
#2: Mother confesses to police: "€˜I strangled to death my autistic daughter" | 0 comments
#3: A teen reunited with her birth mother who then killed her and burned her body, police say | 0 comments


I'm a bot, beep boop | Downvote to remove | Contact me | Info | Opt-out

[–]skellhella 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Jesus...

[–]ShiningConcepts 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow.

[–]AnnArchist 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

a community for 2 years

Right up there with /r/PUPPYCIDE

Somehow this behavior is so prevalent that its needed

[+][deleted] 8 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]AnnArchist 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

ya but we eat those.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Animals die, get over it.

[–]True_Truth 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Savingಠ_ಠ

[+][deleted] -72 points-71 points-70 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

This is such a stupid fucking thing to say for so many reasons. You should know better, and the people upvoting this garbage should know better.

[–]roguedawg279 58 points59 points60 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's the point, it's pointing out the ridiculousness in the "teach men not to rape/steal/be violent". The fact that you got offended maybe tells you something that you shouldn't ignore, and it's not about you.

[–]genkernels 44 points45 points46 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is such a stupid fucking thing to say for so many reasons.

Isn't that the point?

[–]mypasswordismud 18 points19 points20 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

WOOSH

[–]ShiningConcepts 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

All insults that you have given us the opportunity to make aside...

It is really unfortunate that you are decrying us when you don't understand us. This comment is a sarcastic metaphor for why the teach-men-not-to-rape rhetoric is misguided; it is not to be taken in a literalist sense.

[–]scyth3s 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The people upvoting this understand that it's a reference to a feminist talking point, not a call to action.

[–]toolpot462 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Awh did we hurt your cis female fee-fees? :'(

[–]Retromind 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Wrong sub, cunt.

[+]SaxophoneGuy24 -12 points-11 points-10 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Teach everyone not to kill children. We need equality, not to seem entitled.

[–]Cabbagepant[S] 203 points204 points205 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

The War on Women sure is hotting up - disgusting this infanticide made it to court!

[–]Blutarg 112 points113 points114 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Truly, ours is a society that hates women.

Well, I've been diagnosed with depression, so I'm off to rob a bank. Have a good one!

[–][deleted] 27 points28 points29 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Will you shoot your gun in the air and yell "Arrrrgghhhh!" ?

[–]I_am_snonked_my_dude 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I need a medic bag!

[–]skellhella 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I sure hope not. That would be toxic masculinity.

[–]Blutarg 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I might as well, now that you mention it.

[–]Duchat 64 points65 points66 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

A different article

She is divorced from her husband, which was an arranged marriage. She had a restraining order against her husband but lifted it 2 weeks before the birth to try and reconnect. She claims she was a victim of spousal abuse.

Now the good part. She was living in a refugee camp, pregnant, no money. She repeatedly curses her own baby as a burden. Lies about baby being snatched by black guy. Claims she thought the baby was possessed. Also claims depression, which is probaby caused by being broke with a baby in a refugee camp. Sounds like she made a decision to unburden herself.

Max penalty is 5 years, and serves 500+ days in reman, which counts as double maybe. Judge gives her time served essentially.

They didn't take it particularly easy on her, because I have heard that Australian sentences are light compared to many other countries. That is just their law. I'm pissed about Australia having max 5 years for infanticide.

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points24 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

If anything this just shows how lax the justice system is in Australia. In the U.S. she'd be facing 15 years to life in prison. She could claim an insanity defense, but a jury wouldn't be very sympathetic.

[–]Duchat 22 points23 points24 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's exactly my point. She chose the right country to murder a totally innocent, defenseless baby that relied on her for all the necessities of life. Whatever shit hole she's a refugee from would probably stone her to death and not wait 500+ days ro do it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198590/Mother-suffocated-baby-guilty-murder-suffering-postpartum-psychosis.html Happened in Chicago.

[–]MuhTriggersGuise 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

15 years to life in prison

We're talking about the US. She'd be facing up to the death penalty.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates' TLDR: mother kills five kids.

Found not guilty by reason of insanity in the state of Texas, a place that loooves the death penalty.

[–]MuhTriggersGuise 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ok, and here's a woman sentenced to death for causing the death of her 10 year old cousin. So while rare, yes, even women face the death penalty in the US.

[–]larryjr420 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Ok how would u have liked it if your mother did the same thing too you, then we wouldn't have your dumbass comment on how she's a victim she's a criminal

[–]Duchat 13 points14 points15 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Actually I think she should get life and neutered. However, I'm not the Australian judicial system. I'm saying her sentence is probably standard for the crime THERE. Judge could have also given her the whole 5 years, which means she would have a couple more years to think about it.

[+]Jonathansacc -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

And how would more jail time help her?

[–]Duchat -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Your parents didn't kill you, despite being such a cunt, so you have properly punitive justice to thank for that.

[+]Jonathansacc -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Im sorry, but if you think that a 15 year sentence would have prevented this, you are delusional, and you think that the reason my mom didnt kill me is because she was afraid of harsh punishment?
People still get killed and murderers risk life right?

There is no black and white here, this is a tragedy But to discount her circumstances is just wrong.

[–]butter_pancreas 21 points22 points23 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Interesting that there's a happy mother-daughter photo and not just a mugshot of the murderer and a happy picture of the innocent baby.

[–]Cabbagepant[S] 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Excellent point.

[–]bunfuss 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

it tears me apart, look how cute and happy that baby is :(

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sick that the only person she truly loved was a monster. How many single mothers are posting happy photos with their little ones only to neglect them in real life for their precious phone?

[–][deleted] 18 points19 points20 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

If you are so out of self control that you can't help murdering a baby you might not deserve jail but we deserve to have you hospitalized for our safety.

[–]Alyscupcakes 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

True. However postpartum depression & postpartum psychosis are not long term conditions. Possibly even controlled with medications.

How the law treats the mentally ill has pro's and con's. It is not a perfect system. Unfortunately there are not many facilities to deal with mentally ill individuals who commit crimes. And no one is pushing for the creation of those facilities. People/Society tends to keep a black & white view on crimes, and pushes jail/prison time over rehabilitation & proper mental health treatment. Not so dissimilar from how we deal with individuals with drug addiction.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I have depression. If I killed someone I wouldn't get a free pass.

[–]Alyscupcakes 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That actually would depend on how good of a lawyer you have and the judge/jury.

The law has it's pro's and con's.

If you have a lot of money, I easily bet you'd get a free pass.

(Free pass in this case refers to a sentence of ~1.5 years, not no jail time)

[–]rocelot7 69 points70 points71 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

So this bitch got depression after killing her child. Good for her. She should be suffering that for the next sixty years in her cell.

[–]genkernels 32 points33 points34 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Eh, to be fair this woman was in a refugee camp and got a restraining order on her husband. I mean, if you're pregnant in a refugee camp, and because you're in a refugee camp you have nothing, that's some rough shit. You're in an incredibly tight spot, your child is too, and its making things worse. You may very well not have had proper access to birth control and your abusive husband may or may not have cared.

Jail time, sure. I don't this particular one is the lock 'em up and throw away the key kind, especially compared to other similar crimes.

[–]zurrain 14 points15 points16 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I dunno. I think it's weird how people justify devaluing the life of a human infant compared to a young child or adult.

[–]Alyscupcakes 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's historical. Babies and children died very often in the past, that it was assumed you'd lose several children. And it possibly still is that way in many third world countries.

Heck even the Bible had no punishment for infanticide. And ages 6 months to 5 years, murdering a child only incurred a fine. Where as above age five it was 'eye for an eye'.

[–]skellhella 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Heck even the Bible had no punishment for infanticide

That's really interesting, and another sign of gynocentrism even in the old days.

[–]genkernels 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think it's weird how people justify devaluing the life of a human infant compared to a young child or adult.

In this case its more of a matter of the mother having massively extenuating circumstances. Its like how stealing is a more severe crime if you're stealing from people less well off than you are, and a less severe crime if you're stealing just what you need in order to survive.

We could also argue from the perspective of the well-being of the child. The kid was going to suffer horribly, was causing its parent to suffer as well, and had a greater-than-normal chance of not making it to adulthood (how much greater of a chance I don't know, refugee camps in Austrailia aren't exactly lauded, but it isn't the same as a refugee camp in some other parts of the world). The child could arguably be considered to be better off this way, so this isn't exactly a normal situation.

[–]zurrain 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

My point is killing an adult or a child wouldn't be viewed through the same lense. They don't give you a slap on the hand for killing someone just because you are depressed or poor.

Even a successful insanity plea means your ass is going to a mental institution for a long time because your a danger to society.

[–]genkernels 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

My point is killing an adult or a child wouldn't be viewed through the same lense. They don't give you a slap on the hand for killing someone just because you are depressed or poor.

Hrm, you're probably right about infants not being treated the same by the justice system. However, murders of adult dependents may also garner similar sympathy if they can be framed as a burden of some sort on their caretakers, so I don't think that is all of it. It may very well be that it may be considered less of a crime by society to kill someone if they really depend on you for their immediate survival.

[–]slamdotswf-6 points 8 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I think it's weird how people justify devaluing the life of a woman just because they can't get laid, but here we are, right?

[–]zurrain 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure that sounded a lot more clever when you were thinking it to yourself.

[–]whenrudyardbegan 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Poor refugees

[–]Brandilio 12 points13 points14 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

To quote Chad Daniels,

“If a dad leaves his family those kids are bastards; if a mom leaves her family they never came up with a word for that because they didn’t think it would happen. It’s a double standard, right? I know some of you women are like, ‘Well it’s because women don’t abandon their children.’ And I agree with that.

You drown them.

(grains and laughter)

I mean, you can get mad, but stats don’t lie. Dads leave, moms get even, and it’s fucked up. It’s real fucked up.”

[–]Electroverted 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"The newspapers are gonna be tough on you. And prison is very, very hard on people who hurt kids. If you get the opportunity, you should kill yourself." - Rust Cohle

[–]AAKurtz 13 points14 points15 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

"The maximum jail term for infanticide is five years." Really?

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points16 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Infanticide is a lesser form of murder made to acknowledge the number of women who murder their young children. Basically it's the baby equivalent of a "crime of passion" like what they use to get away with killing their husbands.

[–]TheRavenousRabbit 87 points88 points89 points 8 years ago (176 children) | Copy Link

I hope this woman dies a slow, miserable death. What she did isn't something that can be excused on mental illness, or depression. This was just pure, maligned evil rearing its ugly head.

[–]Big_Ol_Johnson 26 points27 points28 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's the part I don't understand. If someone "mentally unstable" went on a killing rampage you wouldn't say it's an excuse and let him walk. It's an incredibly stupid way to get out of doing incredibly stupid things, and there's no place for it in our society

[+][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

Post pardom depression is a thing that is recognized by the medical community, same chemicals that make people kill them selfs are very present after birth and some women get it worse than others.

[–]SworntotheDeath 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

Correct, however, men who have chemical imbalances in their brains and various psychological problems are held accountable for their action. Women must be too.

[–]pacmatt27 -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

Well... Actually no... Those men should be treated with compassion, like women are. The key to equality isn't avenging mistreatment but raising everyone to the point where they aren't mistreated.

[–]rollypolymasta 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

I don't think they should be treated with that much compassion though either. If someone isn't culpable for killing a child due to mental illness they should at least be put in a mental institute and treated. It shouldn't be a get out of jail free card, it should be an alternative mode of rehabilitation.

[–]pacmatt27 -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

Yes they should, as has been my argument the entire time. That is compassionate.

[–]rollypolymasta 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

First off that's not actually want happened in this case she was given time served so she free to get pregnant and kill another child of she so chooses. Second she had the foresight to hide the body and blame it on someone else, which doesnt seem like the actions of someone who doesn't know what she's doing.n

Lastly I don't see that as compassion at all, nor do I believe child murderers deserve it. It's simply practical, putting a mentally ill person in prison is a waste of time and doesn't help them reform.

[–]pacmatt27 -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

Ok? So? That is what should have happened and wishing she dies a slow and painful death is not productive.

Also people can become temporarily unstable and lose control of their actions. Then later show remorse. It's not that complicated.

Ok. Call it practical if you like. Dm, it's still the correct course of action.

[–]DontTrustRedditors 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Locking her in a cage where she can't get pregnant and murder another child. Or sterilize her.

That's an actual practical answer. Your answer is not practical. Your answer is emotional, and designed to exempt murderers from guilt simply because they claim to feel bad about it later.

[–]pacmatt27 -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean it's a barbaric, moronic solution. But ok.

[–]rollypolymasta -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

I never said I wish she dies a slow and painful death.

Do you think that a man should only get a year for murdering his wife because she was cheating on him, as it made him temporarily unstable? How about someone who murdered someone under the influence of PCP or something?

Also it shows that even if she was temporarily unstable she committed both the crime of hiding the body and filing a false report, which she wasn't charged with. The insanity plea only applies if your so impeded by mental illness that you didn't understand the effect of the crime your committing, her trying to cover it up shows that she was at least aware of what she was doing when she hid the body and blamed it on someone else. It also seriously brings doubt into the idea she didn't know what she was doing when committing the murder.

As other users have pointed out at this stage she's likely got over the symptoms of post partum psychosis, which would be a condition that would qualify for an insanity plea. She was most likely suffering from post partum depression, which doesn't mean she didn't understand what she's doing. So should anyone who suffers clinical depression, but knows what theyre doing not get jail for murder? Should a parent due to losing there job or a divorce be able to murder their child and get time served?

Unless you clearly define the point at which insanity diminishes your responsibility of a crime, it's a useless classification.

[–]pacmatt27 -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

I never said I wish she dies a slow and painful death.

No, you butted in when I responded to someone who said they wished this woman die a slow and painful death. If you ignore that you lose all context from my comments.

Do you think that a man should only get a year for murdering his wife because she was cheating on him, as it made him temporarily unstable? How about someone who murdered someone under the influence of PCP or something?

I think you need to holistically assess each individual case on its own merit and find the most productive and beneficial solution. I also think, as I've stated multiple times now, that we should focus on preventative measures rather than reactionary measures. Reason being that reactionary measures are too late and do nothing.

and filing a false report, which she wasn't charged with. The insanity plea only applies if your so impeded by mental illness that you didn't understand the effect of the crime your committing, her trying to cover it up shows that she was at least aware of what she was doing when she hid the body and blamed it on someone else.

Yes and she should be punished for that.

She was most likely suffering from post partum depression, which doesn't mean she didn't understand what she's doing.

I'm sorry I didn't realise we'd gotten into making uneducated assumptions about her mental state with no clinical evidence. I am saying if she was impaired we have to treat her as such. If she was not then it's irrelevant.

So should anyone who suffers clinical depression, but knows what theyre doing not get jail for murder?

No. That's stupid and was at no point ever even hinted as being comparable to my argument.

Unless you clearly define the point at which insanity diminishes your responsibility of a crime, it's a useless classification.

And that is exactly what courts, prosecutors, defenders and expert witnesses aim to do. There's a reason they have psychologists interview criminals to establish their capacity.

This is becoming exhausting now. My arguments are that we need to appropriately and productively assess crimes on an individual basis. We need to suppress our emotional responses in an effort to avoid using justice as a mask for vengeance. We need to be proactive rather than reactive. Finally there should be no sentencing discrepancy between men and women. If you disagree with any of those points you are wrong and there is a wealth of evidence to support me. Can we finish this now please? I'm sick of people misrepresenting what I'm saying because I don't believe wishing murder on a criminal is particularly useful.

[–]DontTrustRedditors 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

'Treated with compassion' means 'let them go free and clear with no significant penalties'.

Tell me, would you find it acceptable to sterilize this woman, or at least to put her under parole with the condition that she never have another child?

[–]pacmatt27 -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No, it doesn't.

No, I wouldn't, as much as I may want to. There are better options.

[–]DontTrustRedditors 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So? If she killed someone, she belongs in prison or a mental ward for a very long time. I don't give a shit what her excuse is. She's dangerous. We can't let someone out there who thinks murdering people is an acceptable way to solve their problems. Full Stop.

[–]Atheist101 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Sure it is, but PPD doesnt make you a murderer....there are plenty of women who had PPD and didnt kill their kids.

[–]Doc_Osten 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Look up post partum psychosis. I'm not saying it's the case here, because at 15 months the most major symptoms should have already passed, but it is possible for someone experiencing this yo murder their child

[–]DontTrustRedditors -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's definitely not the case here, as 15 months is far too long for that.

This woman just murdered her baby, and feminists like you make excuses for her, because how dare a woman ever be held responsible for her actions.

[–]TheRavenousRabbit 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Doesn't justify murder. It doesn't excuse it either.

[+][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I am not justifying murder it is a justification of the sentencing, just like how we don’t chop peoples hands off for petty theft.

[–]DontTrustRedditors 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The sentence is justifying murder. Not even 5 years for murdering a baby.

Seriously, /u/butterpirate, what the fuck is wrong with someone who thinks stealing and baby killing are morally equivalent crimes?

[+]Splitkraft -33 points-32 points-31 points 8 years ago (132 children) | Copy Link

I hope this woman is placed in a skilled mental health facility and is gets the appropriate mental health therapy/medication.

... sorry, grrr it's a woman, burn the witch /s

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points25 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

If she's out of control of her faculties, then why did she lie?

To lie requires two things: a) knowledge of the morality of the situation, such that you know you've done something horrible enough that you should hide it, and b) enough cognitive wherewithal to come up with an alternative story to attempt the deception.

And, why did she consciously dispose of the body? Same rationale applies to this one, too. She knew she needed to hide that body to avoid being found out. That's someone who is not only thinking, but aware of the moral and possibly legal implications.

[+]pacmatt27 -6 points-5 points-4 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Really poor understanding of insanity pleas.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

She didn't plead insanity, though. As per the article, she pled guilty to Infanticide, which was a downgraded charge from the Murder she was originally charged with. We're simply discussing whether prison was the best place for her, or whether she actually should have been in treatment. I'm suggesting the prison route, given that she clearly grasped the moral and legal implications of her actions, depressed or not.

[–]pacmatt27 -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

But you're arguing that the cause for that is that they are arguing mental illness was responsible for behaviour. People can temporarily become unstable then later show remorse and understanding of their actions. The fact that she lied and concealed the crime does not mean she wasn't temporarily out of her faculty.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

That's honestly irrelevant.

The second she works to hide the body, she's proving she's no longer temporarily insane. Insanity might cover the actual killing itself, but now she's into obstructing justice territory, which she did twice, both by the attempts to dispose and hide the body from authorities AND by consciously lying to the authorities to throw off their inquiry.

Want to write off the actual killing to depression? Go ahead.

It's the cover up afterward I'm talking about.

[–]Alyscupcakes 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"Out damned spot! Out I say"

-Hallucinating Lady Macbeth

[–]pacmatt27 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Fine. Then charge her with obstructing justice.

[–]Jammersault 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Charge her for killing her kid, and stick her in jail. Let's do that in an attempt to limit the numbers of babies lives being lost thanks to short term insanity in mothers. Don't fret, it would all be for a good cause.

[–]pacmatt27 -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Except that won't do anything cos someone murdering their child probably isn't thinking very rationally you thick cunt.

[–]TheRavenousRabbit 35 points36 points37 points 8 years ago (52 children) | Copy Link

The woman deliberately murdered a child, then went to dispose of the body, then lied to the police - this was planned and thought out, not an act of desperation or mental illness. Then she uses a most likely false "Insanity" defense.

[+]pacmatt27 -21 points-20 points-19 points 8 years ago (51 children) | Copy Link

Would you say this is the behaviour of a mentally well individual? I mean... I won't forgive the behaviour, nor do I have to... But murdering an infant is not something a healthy human being does. Evil is just a word people with no empathy use to excuse revenge.

As an example, heard of post-natal depression? One of many symptoms is fantasies or psychotic features that predispose new mothers to killing their newborn baby.

Labeling this as evil does nothing to prevent future harm to children. That should be your first and only concern.

[–]TheRavenousRabbit 21 points22 points23 points 8 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

It is evil. It was planned, considered and continued evil. Malicious, thought out and mature evil. You've yet proven the fact she was depressed.

Which I find to be extremely unlikely, considering what depression actually is. It doesn't make you murder people, it makes you murder yourself.

No, what she did was this.

1: She smothered her child, a slow, silent method. This is not an impulsive thing you do. No, in fact, it is a method often used by unstable parents trying to silence babies in a violent and controlling manner. Physically shutting them up until they stop crying.

2: She then disposed of the body, hiding up her crime - only for the baby to be found by someone by a creek. Which shows she most likely tried to sink the body, in an attempt to hide it.

3: She then lied about the death to police officers, using a sexist, racist stereotype in order to avoid penalty.

4: During her trial, she was diagnosed with depression. Not before, but conveniently during the trial.

To me, this just screams of a planned out murder, with her using the stereotypes about women, and using an insanity plea to avoid punishment.

But even if I did give you the small breadcrumb of her being "depressed"... depression has no correlation with being mentally unstable enough to commit murder, and that actually being so severe that they were not in the right state of mind. Depression is simply a lack of happiness and a joy for life. It doesn't make you insane.

Also, Fuck post-natal depression. Every woman that murders her baby should be tossed in prison. There is no excuse.

[+]Splitkraft -10 points-9 points-8 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Depression is a very broad term that can encompass many mental problems, to say depression is simply a lack of happiness and Joy in life is reductive/ignorant/and dangerous.

"Depression (major depressive disorder or clinical depression) is a common but serious mood disorder. It causes severe symptoms that affect how you feel, think, and handle daily activities, such as sleeping, eating, or working. " - National Institute of Mental Health

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366%2814%2900128-X/abstract - study on violence related to depression Feel free to read it yourself, but I'll pull a quick quote.

"After adjustment for sociodemographic confounders, the odds ratio of violent crime was 3·0 (95% CI 2·8–3·3) compared with the general population controls."

This is a horrendous crime, and this woman should not be allowed free in society, but to assume that this woman is evil and manipulating the mental health system is a dangerous and ignorant precedent and I hope she is able to receive care.

sorry for format, on mobile

[–]RonTomJohnson 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

For some reason, I really doubt if the genders were reversed and a man did this you would be singing the same tune.

[+]Splitkraft -7 points-6 points-5 points 8 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Edited after re-reading previous comment...

I don't disagree that the courts/public opinion would be different. I personally feel justice should not be based around gender.

[–]RonTomJohnson 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Then you're a misandrist, congrats. If a guy did it, him being depressed, isn't a valid excuse and you would show him zero sympathy. Why?

So much for equality, eh?

[–]Splitkraft 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

After re-reading previous comment I understand where you are coming from, edited to correct. I was trying to stating that the issue of sentencing disparity stems from the court/legal system and should not be blamed on any SINGLE individual.

If a man had committed this crime and had then been diagnosed with severe depression by a qualified medical professional, then I absolutely would recommend that they be placed in a mental health facility to receive appropriate therapy/medication.

I personally agree that this woman should NOT be allowed to return to free society, once she recieves appropriate psychological/medical care she should be transitioned into prison. My initial statement was that I disagreed with the idea that she "deserves to to die a slow painful death".

Personally I have noticed a large portion of this community falling back to "whataboutism", and although that is a valid topic for discussion, it isn't an effect vehicle for change, just my two cents.

Still I think it would be great if we could get a weekly disscussion/vent thread as I do think people should have a place to make statements of frustration.

[+]pacmatt27 -9 points-8 points-7 points 8 years ago* (17 children) | Copy Link

Well done for failing to engage with this topic in a rational manner. Feel proud that you are perpetuating a system which does not provide adequate help to individuals before a crisis - merely punishes them after an infant child is dead.

Enjoy your justice boner. Blood is on your hands.

[–]skoallly 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If some dude killed a newborn baby by smashing it in the head with a hammer, then claimed "sorry, I was depressed" -- would you accept that? Therein lies the problem. We have profoundly more empathy for women than men. We have so much empathy for women that we're willing to say "hey ladies, you wanna murder a baby? No worries! Here, have some prozac."

This expands into how we treat children. Domestic violence is portrayed by feminists as a patriarchal conspiracy. In fact, mothers are more likely to abuse their children than biological fathers. Abused children often grow up to become abusers, and the cycle of violence continues.

Empathy is good. But it needs to be tempered with justice. Automatically forgiving women for all their sins, no matter how vile, doesn't help. It doesn't even help women themselves. Does it help children when they are spoiled rotten?

[–]pacmatt27 -4 points-3 points-2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

would you accept that?

No. Nor do I accept this. If she is mentally unwell why was she not being seen by mental health services? Where were the safeguarding referrals? Why was she allowed care of a child she might harm? What I'm saying is why was this allowed to happen in the first place? We're too late. There is no solution now because the child is fucking dead forever. If her mental health was in question, prison is not a solution and more people are likely to be injured or killed either by their own hand or someone else's.

We have profoundly more empathy for women than men. We have so much empathy for women that we're willing to say "hey ladies, you wanna murder a baby? No worries! Here, have some prozac."

Lol... You have literally no idea who I am or who I empathise with. I am a mental health professional and I would have exactly the same amount of empathy (if not more) for a man because I am also a male mental health professional. I'm not cooing over her because she's a woman. I'm saying there was an unmet need and a child died as a result.

Fuck me.

[–]TheRavenousRabbit 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

You haven't proven that the woman was depressed in the first place, even so, depression does not cause a legitimate reason for why you should be able to murder someone.

[–]pacmatt27 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Nor do I need to. A mentally well person does not murder their infant child. Lmao... Jesus christ.

It's not an allowance to murder you moron. I'm saying if there is a mental wellbeing issue then simply imprisoning the person is useless. If you want to stop children from dying, think critically you fucking twat. If you don't, bung her in prison and be done with it.

[–]Jammersault 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

What percentage of men in jail are there in some way due to mental illness? Let em all out? Hell, why even put em in there in the first place, just sentence them to endless mental health consultations with a mental health expert like you. You wanna stop a few more kids dying? Then recognising the abuse that women commit as mothers for what it is and punishing them in line with everyone else (read: men) would be a great start. I'm surprised you weren't already on to that being a mental health expert n all. Oh wait, come to think of it I'm not really that surprised at all.

[–]pacmatt27 -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Lol. Punishment does not cure mental illness in women or men. Jesus christ.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I think imprisonment will do a reasonably sufficient job of preventing mentally ill people from murdering innocent people again.

[–]pacmatt27 -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Then you're a moron. Imprisoning this woman will not deter her from hurting someone in the future. Whether it's an inmate or upon release. Imprisoning this woman will not stop another unwell individual from hurting someone in the future.

[–]Whanny 13 points14 points15 points 8 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

Knowing you can get away with killing your baby I'm sure will help the situation too.

[–]pacmatt27 -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

I mean. Nobody kills their baby if they're mentally well. Lmao.

[–]theothermod 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

By that logic, you could excuse any murder on the grounds that mentally well people don't kill.

[–]pacmatt27 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

No you couldn't. There are plenty of rational reasons to kill an adult human being.

[–]_pulsar 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Like depression?

[–]pacmatt27 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

No.

[–]theothermod -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

There are rational reasons to kill a baby, too:

  • It is deformed and will be unable to live a happy life
  • It will be a burden for its mother
  • It will be a burden for its father
  • Its mother would suffer social disgrace if she had a baby out of wedlock

And there are probably some more as well.

[–]pacmatt27 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

None of those are rational. You could have had an abortion if any of those were applicable and the first is not your decision to make. Euthanasia is illegal, justified or not.

[–]RonTomJohnson 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Why not? People can be evil, and do fucked up shit without any mental illness whatsoever. In fact, it happens all the time.

[–]pacmatt27 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, again, evil is a pointless, reductive word used by people who have zero ability to empathise or think critically and rationally. It's laden with emotion and is just a veil to disguise the fact that you're angry and want to punish someone. I'm angry too, I want to punish her too. I'm a human being. I don't have to act on my emotions.

[–]ratbacon 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Those arguments can be levied at pretty much any crime.

As ever, society has a gaping blind spot when it comes to women doing bad things.

[–]pacmatt27 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

No they can't but this does raise a good point which is that laws are social constructs and so is mental illness. However, there are plenty of cold, rational reasons to kill an adult human (they are threatening your life or that of your family) or to steal (you are starving to death). There are few, if any, reasons a mother would kill her own child unless she was in severe mental distress. It is, obviously, a complex issue but my point and that of the original poster is that if this is a legitimate mental health concern then this person was not in control of their behaviour. If that is the case she now has to live with murdering her own child and the guilt of that act. That is punishment enough. The wider issue is that the child is dead. We are too late. If it is a mental health issue we have already failed. This should never have happened.

If it is not a mental health issue (which is so unlikely as to be near impossible) skullfuck her to death. I don't care.

[–]ratbacon 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

The point I was trying to make is that there are always mitigating factors and excuses for carrying out crime. A huge percentage of it is due to mental disorders, a lot of it due to poverty and upbringing. Very few crimes are actually carried out simply due to malice or the person in question being "evil".

Notwithstanding that, we have the massive disparity in incarceration rates between men and women. In your reply you happily justify that "there are very few reasons a mother would kill a child" so presumably there was something wrong with her if she did. As if that is really an answer and the fact she has to live with it is really a sufficient punishment.

Do you really think that justifies lower sentences compared to a man killing a child (or anyone for that matter)? No sane man kills children so there must be something mentally wrong with him as well.

Or is it just because it is a woman and the idea of a woman killing a child is uncomfortable. So we as a society justify the behaviour to make our view of the world and women's place in it feel correct. And if so, is that really a justification?

[–]pacmatt27 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm well aware that there are usually mitigating factors and that is exactly my argument. It is an argument that applies to males as well. I do not believe she should be treated with compassion because she's a woman. I believe she should be treated with compassion because she's a human being. What she did was horrible and unforgivable. However, if there is a legitimate reason it happened, like mental illness, then perhaps we should be discussing that rather than stroking our hate boners.

Agreed. No sane man kills children. I never made any attempt to justify sentencing disparity nor would I. It's wrong.

[–]Whanny 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

So we should excuse all the husbands beating their wives to death because they are mentally ill?

[–]pacmatt27 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not excusing anything. They should be treated by mental health services rather than imprisoned if they are mentally ill, though, yes.

[–]tallwheel 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Would you say the same about a man who killed a baby? Of course he wouldn't be considered "mentally well". Doesn't usually stop people from labeling such men as the fucking monsters they rightly are. We can't tolerate murder as a society, no matter how mentally ill the murderer may be.

[–]pacmatt27 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Would you say the same about a man who killed a baby

Lol. Yes. Of course I would.

Doesn't usually stop people from labeling such men as the fucking monsters they rightly are.

I don't remember any part of my argument excusing that behaviour.

We can't tolerate murder as a society, no matter how mentally ill the murderer may be.

No, we can't. But punishment is a poor deterrent for crime, especially among the mentally ill. Prevention is the best solution to crime.

[–]tallwheel -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Prevention and punishment are two separate matters. What do you do, then, when murder has already been committed by a mentally ill individual.

Lol. Yes. Of course I would.

That's what they all say, but in practice we see the majority of people react very differently depending on the sex of the perpetrator.

[–]pacmatt27 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What do you do, then, when murder has already been committed by a mentally ill individual.

Examine how this person was failed by mental health provision and make sure they are treated. If it was temporary "insanity" then they likely are not going to have a particularly easy time dealing with the guilt of murdering their own child. Put them in a secure unit and try to help them. I feel like that should be very fucking obvious to anyone with half a brain.

That's what they all say

Then why the fuck am I subscribed to a men's rights subreddit frequently arguing that male criminals are treated with the same compassion I am advocating here. Why do I do this in other subreddits when I know the reaction will be unfavorable? Why do I do this in real life? Jesus christ, you dipshit. I'm telling you I agree with you and you still want to fight? Equality is not taking off your opponent's boot and kicking the shit out of them with it. Equality is saying let's stop kicking the shit out of each other. Get a grip.

[–]DarthCerebroX 18 points19 points20 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

See... you’re looking at our reactions and only thinking on this one particular case.

What you don’t realize is that we see these stories almost every day.

  • women does something extremely shitty and despicable Judge basically gives her a slap on the wrist because X reason.

It’s the same fucking thing every time. They will use any reason they can to give women lenient plea deals or suspended sentences.

On average..

  • Women are almost 50% less likely to be arrested for a crime
  • Women are 50% less likely to be convicted of a crime
  • men are given 60% longer sentences than women for the same crimes
  • Women are also far less likely to see any jail time after a conviction.

When you look at this case with all that context and perspective, you’d realize why we are so upset with this ruling (and every other ruling where women aren’t held accountable for their actions).

And then you can look at all the infanticide cases... Mothers killing their newborn/infant/toddler children but yet they are given slaps on the wrist for it.

[–]Splitkraft 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree with everything you have posted an I REALLY appreciate a well thought out and rational response. My issue isn't with the disparity or injustice, I agree 100% with the frustration. What I have issue with is responses like above delegitimizes the Mens Right movement as a whole because individuals can look to posts like that and judge everyone involved as extremist nuts who condone someone diagnosed with a mental illness (real or not) to a slow painful death... every day I browse this sub it looks more and more like the extreme feminism.

[–]kragshot 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What I have issue with is responses like above delegitimizes the Mens Right movement as a whole because individuals can look to posts like that and judge everyone involved as extremist nuts who condone someone diagnosed with a mental illness (real or not) to a slow painful death... every day I browse this sub it looks more and more like the extreme feminism.

The problem with that is in truth, there is no "high road" for our movement. No matter how we frame our issues, we will be vilified for it. People are going to think that way no matter what we write in here. So we might as well let people be angry at this point.

I mean really...there's that obviously loony woman, Kate Morgan on Twitter who is pretty much calling for male genocide daily on her tweets, but Twitter has yet to even slap her on the wrist for making tweets that if they were made by a man about women or anyone else would get his account shut down at the very least and possibly investigated by the police.

I am not asking you to like it. But realize that admonishing comments like that in "defense" of a child killer is not going to win you any friends in the wake of the knowledge that a major social media outlet is basically giving license to a hate monger like Kate Morgan.

[–]Splitkraft 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'll start this by say I absolutely agree that everyone should be allowed to vent their frustration, and to that end I do think there should be some sort of weekly/monthly "venting" thread, but these articles have been popping up more and more on the front page (yay for exposure), and when someone who doesn't have a strong grasp of the men's rights movement reads comments like "I hope that bitch dies a slow painful death" I don't see how someone won't vilify or lump us in with communities like incels. Most people see these movements at face value and rely on comments to make/guide their opinion (if they haven't already made one) versus actually digesting the article.

I do believe that there is always a "best choice", there is almost never a "high road" for social change, but that doesn't mean the "low road" is the only other choice, individuals vilify the men's right movement for many reasons (Most of which stem from misinformation and prejudice) without us adding more. Change takes time.

Just because there are bigots out there doesn't mean that we need to have bigotry to counter it. The best way (in my experience) to tilt an irrational individual is through calm, fact base discussions, "flaming" or "venting" just gives individuals the ability to cherry pick quotes and point to them as why Mens rights is just a den of "angry white men who hate women".

[–]dogggi 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Get out of here you non-sexist!!!

[–]pacmatt27 -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (64 children) | Copy Link

Thankyou for saying this. Despite the downvotes you are absolutely correct. Justice is not revenge and people are forgetting that.

[–]Jammersault 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (63 children) | Copy Link

Justice is not revenge? Tell that to every dad out there that's lost his house, his dog, has had his children taken away and turned against him. Been chewed up, spat out by a system that will go exactly how far a scorned vengeful woman might want the system to go in order to destroy lives. How far the system goes is in direct proportion to how much revenge a woman might want. Get the picture? Tell all those people that 'justice' had nothing to do with revenge. Constantly making excuses for the bad shit women do only perpetuates many an injustice.

[–]pacmatt27 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (62 children) | Copy Link

Lmao. Did I at any point excuse any of that? At what point in my argument did I say any of that was ok? If I'm saying justice is not vengeance what in the world makes you think I find those things acceptable? Jesus fucking christ. My argument is to restrain your fucking emotions for two minutes and think critically about every crime. Not just this one individual's. It applies to men and women and I'm getting pretty fucking sick of restating that over and over.

[–]Jammersault 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (61 children) | Copy Link

Keep your shirt on! You have no business restraining my emotions or anyone else's for a start. You're theory of IT applying to men and women while very noble and egalitarian of you, isn't how it is in real adult land. You get pretty emotional for someone telling other people not to get emotional. News flash! When you are taking about the murder of kids, people can tend to be a little emotional, does that really surprise you does it? You know the best thing to do when you are sick of doing something? Stop doing it. You don't have to thank me but you're welcome again.

[–]pacmatt27 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (60 children) | Copy Link

You have no business restraining my emotions or anyone else's for a start.

No, that's your business, so fucking do it. You're an adult, not a child.

You're theory of IT applying to men and women while very noble and egalitarian of you, isn't how it is in real adult land.

I'm sorry... Are you trying to convince me or do you just want to mock me? I tell you I agree with you and you patronise me? Fuck off you sad twat.

You get pretty emotional for someone telling other people not to get emotional.

Yeah cos you irritating me and misrepresenting my argument is the same as deciding how we proceed with criminal sentencing. They're definitely equal in terms of their importance. Lol.

News flash! When you are taking about the murder of kids, people can tend to be a little emotional, does that really surprise you does it?

No, it doesn't. But it also does not progress our situation jackass. I'm not saying restrain your emotions because it's easy. If it was I wouldn't need to say it. I'm saying it because it's necessary.

You know the best thing to do when you are sick of doing something? Stop doing it.

I will as soon as dipshits like you stop correcting an argument I literally never made. Lmao.

[–]Jammersault -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (59 children) | Copy Link

Haven't you a sassy tongue hahaha. "so fucking do it!" Fuck me dead mate are you serious? Dropping your baby bottle and having a tanty and demanding people 'keep their emotions in check' or what ever the fuck you are on about while calling people names, telling people to grow up. Haaaaaaa that's a good one mate. When people point out contradictions in things people say, it isn't the same as 'misrepresenting' what they are saying. Sorry, not the same thing. If you are going to contradict yourself, what can I say, grow some balls and get used to being called out for it. Or curl up into the faetal position and suck ya thumb it's up to you. I've gone past trying to convince you of anything. And if you note my sarcasm, I guess I am mocking you right now. Chin up pumpkin, learning something about your own naivety isn't that bad, don't cry.

[–]pacmatt27 -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (58 children) | Copy Link

Read the first sentence and stopped because I realised after your last comment that you are the one responsible for the vast majority of retarded replies I've received. You have absolutely no idea how to follow an argument and you won't get any more from me.

[–]Jammersault -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (57 children) | Copy Link

Yeah righto mate, you've had nearly everyone saying the same thing to you. You "read the first sentence and stopped". That's either because that's what you do when you think you might be exposed to something you don't like all overly sensitive snowflakes or you just lied and did read it. Hahaha. I know very well how to follow an argument buddy, and I can pick progressive powder puffs like you that contradict yourself all the time and then have a melt down when they get called. The only thing you know about arguing is doing exactly what all Social Justice weirdo's do and that's give yourself the high moral ground and call people names. Anyone that disagrees with you is a regard roght? Hahaha. You sound like a pimply faced smart arse snot nosed kid who gets invited nowhere because you piss everyone off with your lefty moralising. You're a dumb arse!

[–]Saerain 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Never understood this. Everyone who does such things is mentally ill. That's what it takes. The illness is an explanation, not an excuse.

[–]Alyscupcakes -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Very true. So why do people/society push for prison time and punishment OVER rehabilitation and mental health treatment?

This woman was set free because the explanation for her actions were confirmed and subsequently was remedied. Treated. Rehabilitated.

Isn't the point of prison to protect society? So if she is no longer a threat to society, because her mental illness is treated... Why shouldn't anyone be let go back into society?

Or should we punish people for mental illnesses they can not control? And continue to punish them after they are treated, rehabilitated, fixed, no longer plagued by mental illness?

So which is it Saerain?

[–]skellhella 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

She's obviously not safe around babies.

[–]Alyscupcakes -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

That wouldn't be applicable as she is no longer suffering postpartum depression.

It would mean any future children she has, she will receive far more medical support and depending on where she lives... A very close watch by social services. It is an unfortunate medical condition which could have been prevented with proper medical treatment and proper family support/'it takes a village' support.

[–]skellhella 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Are you aware that some males also suffer from severe depression/mental illness when their partners have babies?

If a man bludgeoned a baby with a hammer and killed him/her, would you still have the same degree of sympathy? Or would you argue that that man should be strung up?

You'll claim that you most certainly would not, but call me skeptical.

It's an interesting question -- should we treat males more like females in the criminal "justice" system -- or should we treat females more like males?

Females have amazing institutional privilege when it comes to crime. One study in Britain determined that if men were treated like women, five out of six male prisoners would be free.

So this really cuts to the core of how we view men and women and how we dole out punishment for criminals. I personally think that the answer probably lies somewhere in-between, and yes I recognize the cliche. Women should probably be treated harsher (at least when they kill or maim or molest people), and men should probably be treated much more humanely.

Ideally, we should try to eliminate the concept of "punishment" for crime entirely.

[–]Alyscupcakes 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Sympathy is an interesting word choice. To me it seems like a logic problem and not an emotional problem. How does our justice system deal with mental illness, and is it appropriate? How well does the medical community deal with mental illness to prevent such tragedies cause by one being in a disturbed mental state?

Much like how the justice system deals with drug addicts... There is a profound resonance of punishment. But not rehabilitation, not prevention nor help. Just punishment. Society is clearly not doing enough to rehabilitate prisoners. And studies demonstrate the benefits of rehabilitation over punishment.

I think we are doing men and women with mental illnesses a disservice by not addressing the root problems with how the justice system treats people after they are convicted.

I don't believe women need to be treated harsher to match the horrible treatment men face. I believe that system isn't treating anyone appropriately at all. And that is because we have a punishment based system as opposed to rehabilitation system.

[–]skellhella 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't believe women need to be treated harsher to match the horrible treatment men face. I believe that system isn't treating anyone appropriately at all.

I mostly agree.

Have you read "Darkness at Noon"? Arthur Koestler describes his descent from idealist who thinks every prisoner is reformable to a pessimist who thinks prisoners should be damned. But I think the Scandinavian experiment shows that rehabilitation rather than punishment is the best model. It's just hard to want to "reform" somebody like Edmund Kemper.

Anyway, if I had to choose between the way males and females are treated by the "justice" system I think the female "easy lane" is preferable.

There's one problem though: we don't view men and women the same way. We want to bend over backwards to excuse female crime, while we also want to lean forward and maximum punishment for male crime. Both sexes engage in this bias; in the UK, feminists are trying to eliminate female prisons entirely. That may not sound swell to a boy who was molested by a female perp or the sister of some guy who was murdered by his girlfriend.

Some snarky MRA's have suggested that the only way of eliminating workplace deaths would be if females were the ones dying. Is the same true of prisons and punishment?

[–]Alyscupcakes 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Studies, and real life examples do demonstrate that a rehabilitation based system does work.

I would prefer the Scandinavian rehabilitation system over how males or females are treated in the current justice system completely. But also release from jail/prison/rehabilitation centers should occur when the individual is rehabilitated and received appropriate mental and medical care.

But it's true that society has preconceived biases on gender. But also on appearance, race, age. People with make judgements on your job, your net worth, what car you drive.

You are making clear preconceived judgements in your own post by only mentioning female on male violent criminal acts. What about women committing fraud, or stealing, or hitting a child. Your post clearly demonstrates a preconceived bias against feminists. Before you defend yourself, I just wanted to point out your clearly demonstrated preconceived bias. You are generalizing a group of people, fitting them into boxes. That is exactly part of the problem. And taking a opposed or opposite position doesn't help correct the underlying problems. Demonized another group/boxes won't help other groups/boxes that have already been preconceived by society.

To fix the system, we need to find a justice system that excludes bias, and excludes preconceptions of all things based on discrimination factors (gender, race, mental health, physical health, age, etc). Yes these factors might influence how we rehabilitate, but should not reflect on how long one is 'punished' for.

[–]skellhella 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Your post clearly demonstrates a preconceived bias against feminists.

excludes preconceptions of all things based on discrimination factors (gender, race, mental health, physical health, age, etc)

The gender sentencing gap is six times larger than the racial sentencing gap. That's much, much, much, much larger.

Always do the right thing.

Cheers.

[–]cursedbylot 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Fuck this murder I have had depress and took care of a baby, kill exactly 0 people during that time.

[–]Crusader_1096 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Teach women not to kill their children.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

“To my mind, no sane person murders a child,” Neil said.

“There is evidence that she was not capable of rational thought at the time.”

seriously? so according to this idiot, nobody should be jailed for killing a kid?

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Holy fucking shit! What the fuck has happened to this world?!

[–]bunfuss 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That picture tears me apart. It almost makes me cry. Look how cute and happy of a baby she was :(

[–]chambertlo 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Women kill so many children. It's fucking despicable.

[–]President_Elmo 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The age old question comes back: what would happen if a man did it?

[–]Gambizzle 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Where are the feminists when a daughter has her life ended? They dont care.

[–]Ultramegasaurus 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminists do not have too many issues with mothers killing their children.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"walks free after 'is female diagnosis'"

[–]Elfere 15 points16 points17 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Fuck off.

A man would be behind bars for life and probably murdered in jail.

Where is mob mantality (sp?) when you need it?

[–]MuhTriggersGuise 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Men have the same max sentence in Australia.

[–]DontTrustRedditors 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No they don't. Men can't even be charged with this there. You're flat-out lying. This charge was invented entirely to let women off easy if they kill their babies. Only women can be charged with it.

You're a fucking liar. A dirty, bald-faced fucking liar.

[–]Jammersault 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Doesn't change the disparity in average sentence for same crime between the genders in Australia unfortunately.

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points25 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes. Depression after learning the baby was unsuccessful at tying down a provider.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

heyyyyyyy ooooooooo

[–]skellhella 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ouch.

[–]DerangedGinger 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Depression is never an excuse for murdering an infant, and then to blame it on a black guy? Lots of people suffer from mental health issues and depression, yes it can contribute to their criminal behavior, but most don't smother children to death. She needs psychiatric care and to not be alone with small children. Jail isn't going to fix what's wrong with her.

[–]labatomi 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

why is the maximum sentence for killing a toddler only 5 years? wtf?!?

[–]roughback 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If you can't accept her at her worst you don't deserve her at her best.

[–]Jammersault 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

When a woman says that you get ya shit and RUUUUUN FOR THE HILLS !!!

[–]DontTrustRedditors 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Liberals decided a long time ago that it was okay for women to murder babies, as babies basically constitute a woman's personal property in the eyes of the left. So they're allowed to kill them (and then blame the father) or even just drop them off like like unwanted clothes at a salvation army drop box.

Women are just 'special' in the eyes of the left, and shouldn't have to obey the same rules as everyone else. And Australia is a far-leftist feminist state.

[–]Cabbagepant[S] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Liberals decided a long time ago that it was okay for women to murder babies, as babies basically constitute a woman's personal property in the eyes of the left. So they're allowed to kill them (and then blame the father) or even just drop them off like like unwanted clothes at a salvation army drop box.

Very true.

It does take some considerable stopping and thinking to unchain yourself from this dogma hammered into you from a kid, and realise what you wrote. It's pretty horrifying.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

"Infanticide" is literally horseshit. It's murder, violent murder.

I've had depressions many times and never have I killed someone.

Infanticide is just a "A woman decided to kill her baby and well she IS a woman" charge, it's made to get women off the hook.

[–]Ultramegasaurus 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Infanticide would be punished more harshly than murder in a noble society

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

In a noble society yes.

Let me know when you find one.

[–]JackBond1234 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's just a late term abortion. Don't worry about what she does with her own body /s

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Pussy pass? Good grief!

[–]Jammersault 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep, it's real. And when women kill children and avoid jail we all get to see how truly valuable that pussy pass can be.

[–]greggtheman42 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm sick to my stomach at this. Fuck

[–]Funcuz 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

How can depression ever be used as an excuse to commit any crime? I mean, there's no association whatsoever between depression and our ability to distinguish right from wrong.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow... now I'm depressed, does that mean I can kill her?

[–]ShiningConcepts 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

after a 12-month community corrections order was handed down in court today.

I am not defending this, I am just saying that it is dishonest to claim (as this title implies) that she faced no punishment for this crime.

Also:

The 24-year-old was originally charged with murder which was downgraded after she was diagnosed with depression.

Guys, let's not rush to judgement. We don't know this woman and we are not mental health professionals.

[–]paZifist 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Sorry but if you are mentally unstable enough to kill a human being you should be kept away from the rest. Mental institution is always an option.

[–]dr3adlock -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

How old are you? This is why I need to unsub from this place just a bunch of teenagers pissed off about getting shot down by girls so they come here to bitch and women hate.

This has nothing to do with men's rights and any father's here will know how mentally unstable women can be after birth.

[–]paZifist 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I did not try to say that this is related to men's rights. Sorry if I offended you but it is my opinion that if someone is that unstable they are not fit to just do what they want.

[–]ShiningConcepts 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I am a fan of men's rights but I too agree that a lot of the rhetoric on this sub is just ridiculous and misguided.

[–]DrThirdOpinion -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Postpartum depression is real and often goes undiagnosed in mothers, even this late after delivery.

Depression can be so severe that people suffer from very severe delusions, some of which may lead them to kill their children.

We don't know the details of this case. I don't think this has to do with women getting preferential treatment so much as it has to do with leniency in the case of severe mental illness.

[–]Ultramegasaurus 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Dude, anyone who murders a child obviously has some mental health issues. However, it's only women who can use that as an excuse, men rightfully get locked away forever anyway.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Depression can be so severe that people suffer from very severe delusions, some of which may lead them to kill their children.

If I just killed my kid that's exactly what I'd say too if it meant keeping me out of jail. When the burden of proof is merely saying you were depressed there is something wrong with the system.

Warzone PTSD is worse, I guarantee it, but do you think a man who just killed his kid would get a pass and walk free if he said he was depressed?

[–]jaynarg 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

There is also something called postpartum psychosis iirc. I'm not an expert, and I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here, but both are pretty serious and if she had either of these, that might be to blame

[–]DrThirdOpinion 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Postpartum psychosis is usually in the immediate postpartum timeframe. It wouldn't be this late out.

[–]Alyscupcakes 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not to mention babies turn parents into sleep deprived zombies. Studies on sleep deprivation are extensive.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Jesus as a therapist this kind of abusing diagnosis’s makes me sick.

[–]dumbthings 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

what a cunt

[–]danimalplanimal 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'd be depressed too if I murdered my daughter and then lied about it....she looks happy enough in that picture where her daughter is still alive.

[–]TheExplodingKitten 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

/r/pussypass

[–]sonofsuperman1983 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sam Harris wrote an interesting article on free will where he discussed crime and punishment. How much of our behaviour can really be considered free will. If you had the same genetic code, epigenetic code, been exposed to the same environmental influence. Truly walked in another mans shoes could you honestly say you would make a better choices?

I am not saying she should go unpunished. In fact I would sterilise her. Ban her from ever going near children but I would focus on treatment in the long run not incarceration. If society has to support her rather not let her sit off in a cell chilling. Rather she be forced to work to support herself and forced to face up to what she did in therapy.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The thing you need to realize is that letting women murder their kids is in the best interests of the child...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Casey Anthony at it again

[–]LedZeppelin1602 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The only issue I have with infanticide defence is it's a get out of jail free card for any woman who kills her child in the first 12 months as you just know the courts won't demand an official diagnosis of post-natal desperation but will just apply infanticide to any murderess

Not only are women permitted to kill their unborn babies but their newborns too. I wouldn't be surprised if they made some new defence to cover women killing their child up to fives years old next

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Lemme guess. Father left the picture (he isn't mentioned as far as I can tell), she got "depressed" and killed the daughter. This woman needs to be killed

[–]AlbiTheDargon -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

this more so belongs in r/pussypass its not going against mens rights

[–]contractor808 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It's sex biased law.

[–]AlbiTheDargon 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

so men wouldnt receive the same verdict? how do we know that for certain though. this doesnt strike me as a big issue for men. it is a stupid verdict though. and i am a man too so im not biased against men

[–]contractor808 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Infanticide law defines the offender as a woman, similar to rape laws in many places specifying that the offender is a man. Under such definitions, a male could not be tried for infanticide or a woman for rape.

[+]gabbagabba777 -7 points-6 points-5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

How is this anything to do with men's rights?

[+]anon7487378620 -67 points-66 points-65 points 8 years ago (56 children) | Copy Link

postpartum depression is a real and serious thing, you awful cunt.

[–]Stevanous 18 points19 points20 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Murder is a more real and serious thing.

[–][deleted] 53 points54 points55 points 8 years ago (47 children) | Copy Link

Postpartum depression is real, but it isn't an excuse for killing your children

[+]anon7487378620 -58 points-57 points-56 points 8 years ago (46 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say it was. She spent 539 days in jail waiting for the trial, still has a year of corrections programming to do, and still has to live with herself for the rest of her life. When you are a judge, you can get to make those decisions. Until then, you're just a dumb cunt in the peanut gallery.

[–]Cabbagepant[S] 38 points39 points40 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

OH THE POOR BABY-KILLER!

[–]Dapperdan814 16 points17 points18 points 8 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

She spent 539 days in jail waiting for the trial, still has a year of corrections programming to do, and still has to live with herself for the rest of her life.

Which she can do behind bars. No sympathy deserved.

[+]anon7487378620 -15 points-14 points-13 points 8 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

Since when does a single murder ever net life in Club Fed?

Fuck off, idiot.

[–]Dapperdan814 12 points13 points14 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

All the fucking time. How retarded are you? You can rot with her with such a disregard for the sanctity of life.

[–]anon7487378620 -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

lol, k

You're wrong, but have fun with your faith based reality.

[–]Dapperdan814 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

If I'm wrong, then stop breathing. Your choice to keep doing so brings the lie to your own ideal. You don't want to be a liar, do you?

[+]anon7487378620 -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

take your meds

[–]Dapperdan814 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

terrible rebuttal

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

Pfft.

There are men rotting in prison for many decades in the USA for non-violent offenses, like weed. En masse, even. I’ve have signed numerous clemency petitions.

I’m a woman, I have two children. The woman in the article has received the ultimate “Pussy Pass.” If the baby’s father had murdered the baby he’d be absolutely fucked in court and rightly so.

If the reprehensible bitch (who falsely accused a man of killing her child) couldn’t handle motherhood she should have surrendered the poor kid at a police station, hospital, fire department or better yet, to the child’s fucking father or his family. Goddamn!

Before you accuse me of being ignorant of mental illness, I have GAD and PTSD. I’d off myself before I would harm my children.

[–]anon7487378620 -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago* (17 children) | Copy Link

  1. Yes, that is factually correct, but that is because the War on Drugs is a sustained campaign of white fascism against people of color. That is not an excuse to lock everyone in prison for life. That is a reason to stop locking people in prison for possession of flowers.

  2. You are ignorant of mental illness. With regard for you not psychotically committing infanticide, good for you! You didn't win the worst mental health raffle ever. Why don't you cultivate some compassion and own up to the fact that there are things in this world that you don't understand instead of being a judgmental, conceited bitch?

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You are the epitome of a reprehensible human being. My compassion for people who MURDER HELPLESS INFANTS ends when they MURDER HELPLESS INFANTS and pin the fucking blame on a BLACK MAN you appallingly hypocritical simpleton!

Your pathetically weak attempts at ad hominem attacks speak volumes as to the content of your character and your (lack of) intellect. Bitch is a compliment. 😂

I have decades of life experience, have travelled as much as I’ve been able to. I’m guessing you have a very narrow and biased worldview like most SJWs. You utterly lack critical thinking skills.

I am a bitch and proud of it. People like you made me this way and I own it. As for conceited, you couldn’t be more wrong if you tried. Also, unfortunately, I understand PTSD and generalized anxiety all too well since I’ve been battling them for 25 years.

[–]Dapperdan814 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link

that is because the War on Drugs is a sustained campaign of white fascism against people of color.

Oh you're one of those useful idiots I keep hearing about. No wonder you don't give a shit about life. Your end game is to snuff out everyone who doesn't agree with your world view, like a good little religious zealot comrade.

Jesus can't we just get this civil war started already?

[–]Jammersault 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thought the same thing, was wondering how long before he bought 'white fascism' into it. Still waiting for something about those 'neo-libralist ex right wing lefty progressive centralists' to pop up.

[–]Jammersault 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thought the same thing, was wondering how long before he bought 'white fascism' into it. Still waiting for something about those 'neo-libralist ex right wing lefty progressive centralists' to pop up.

[+]anon7487378620 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Why don't you go kill some people and get it started? HELTER SKELTER!

[–]Dapperdan814 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I don't want to kill anybody, I just want to defeat a terrible ideology from bringing the world into a collectivist dark age of identity politics.

[–]AspiringGuru 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I know a few people with various mental health illnesses.

None of them deny their condition, they also limit their activities to prevent self harm or harm to others.

mental health passes for criminal activities are deeply flawed.

[+]anon7487378620 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Your anecdotes leading to radical legal policy recommendations are adorbs, cutie.

[–]AspiringGuru 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Responsibility for own actions is a real debating point.

Mocking the debate devalues your position.

Cute strawman tho.

[–]theduncan 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The judge said he would have only given her a 9 month sentence anyway, but she did that time waiting for a trail.

[–]ratbacon 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Baby killer apologist.

[+]anon7487378620 -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Join the chorus, asshole.

[–]ratbacon 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Justifies the murder of babies. Calls me an asshole.

Hilarious.

[+]anon7487378620 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

k, enjoy your circlejerking and shitty arguments.

It's all you pathetic little reactionaries have left because your entire worldview is based on the lies that you tell yourselves to make you feel like you are still a good person. Apparently, she is the only person in the world that you can feel morally superior to, so if I take that away from you by offering her compassion and understanding... dang. Then, you're the worst person in the world. If that is your moral yardstick, I would hate to be you too.

[–]ratbacon 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you really not understand the point being made?

You started off by labelling the OP a cunt, presumably just from the title, and now you think I'm trying to feel morally superior to people. You are so wide of the mark you cannot even see it.

[–]Jammersault 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You're not taking anything away from anyone buddy get over yourself. Nobody could give 2 fucks for your validation either. High opinion of yourself much? And ya not bringing much apart from typical snowflake highly moral horseshit! You do know a lot of words though don't ya. You should learn what they all mean before you start stringing them all together into stupid sentences.

[–]Jammersault 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

You're not taking anything away from anyone buddy get over yourself. Nobody could give 2 fucks for your validation either. High opinion of yourself much? And ya not bringing much apart from typical snowflake highly moral horseshit! You do know a lot of words though don't ya. You should learn what they all mean before you start stringing them all together into stupid sentences.

[+]anon7487378620 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Wow you sure are mad. This is what I am talking about. You think you found someone who is "weak" that you can "separate from the herd" because of the prevailing opinion, so you are lashing out as hard as you can. It's cute.

[–]Jammersault 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

No mate, not mad. I'm aware that accusing people of being mad is a go to tactic of the snowflake brigade. That shit will literally work on ya progressive self loathing mates, that's the thing that will make you the moral overlord in the circles you hang out in. Calling people out for the stupid idiotic things they say isn't 'lashing out' fella. Yeah mate, I identified you as weak and have been hell bent on 'separating you from your herd' from the moment I didn't lay eyes on you. Yeah you figured me out didn't ya dingus. Fuck me dead bruv, more classic text book shit. You can't even be condescending properly. I wouldn't call your level of naivety cute, I'd call it DANGEROUS!!!

[–]zimthezimmiest 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So what does that make you?

[–]isaywatiwantbitch 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

u wut

[–]zimthezimmiest 19 points20 points21 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Your the awful cunt to think thats an excuse.

[–]Cabbagepant[S] 23 points24 points25 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Feminism - rationalizing/decriminalizing/legalizing infanticide for 50 years!

[–]Hiemos 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Is she put on a public baby killer list? Or baby killer alert kind of thing, so people will know not to date this murderer, I mean victim of depression

On another note, the AC is sexist, huehue

[–]AspiringGuru 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Once a precedent has been set for downgrading a murder to a less than one year jail sentence, what next?

murdered wife because depressed wife is having an affair.

etc. all forms of depression are real. Using mental state to downgrade responsibility for a physical act was never a slippery slope, it was jumping off a cliff.

brb: doctor shopping for a psych to certify me as depressed before murder spree.

[/s] [now it's time to play a game: which part does /s apply to?]

[+]anon7487378620 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Crimes of passion like that almost always get shorter sentences than cold blooded murder already.

[–]competentpotato -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is what happens when a Mega Corporation like BIG PHARMA, controls everything.

[+]strangelybroon -18 points-17 points-16 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

i hope all you cunts get lice. sort your lives out.

[–]JustASmurfBro 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You're a disgusting excuse for a human being, please seek help.

An infant was murdered and you're defending a murderer.

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