Question: How many of you are disillusioned feminists?

azazelcrowley · 2014-07-10T22:18:05+00:00

Long story. Raised a feminist, ended up in a domestically abusive relationship (With a "feminist" as it happens. I still wonder if that influenced my politics, i'd like to think it didn't but I can't know for sure.) for a few years. A couple years after it ended I finally got the courage up to go and seek some help about it and got, well, the usual. "But how" "Men don't" Etc.

So that was discouraging. Then I thought "ah, the feminists. They'll know what to do, this is the kind of shit they are against." And from a, i'll admit, unlucky geographical position, the local group could best be described as "Nuts." or "Sexist fucks."

What about the mensing was one response I got when I asked for help and resources and was confused there wasn't any. Basically they were no better than the general public. I recognize now this wasn't all feminists, but it didn't help. I took to the internet and discovered the MRA, which helped me through my recovery and gave me the confidence to tell people just to fuck off if they make sexist comments about it, or on better days, carefully explain to them why what they said is sexist. During this time I was exposed to a lot of anti-feminist arguments which seem to have stuck, and now even though I know the feminist movement isn't all stuck up fucks like the general public, it's too late, i'm de-converted.

Today i'm "fine" with my history. I can admit it and talk about it publically if I feel like it, and thankfully that seems to be rarely, which I think is a good sign. For a while I was consumed with hatred for feminists, but that's largely subsided now and I just consider them ideologically, uh, confused.

I did manage to talk to my ex again recently. I managed to finally get a good chuckle and laugh at the comedy of life when she replied that it couldn't have been domestic abuse because i'm a male. This from someone who calls themselves a feminist. I asked her if it was merely a series of assaults instead and she blocked me. I think the recovery is complete as of that.

intensely_human · 2014-07-10T22:58:19+00:00

My story is pretty recent. I was never truly a feminist per se, although I've always been liberal and believed in equality. I was just kinda neutral toward it, although I would sympathize with it against conservative interests.

Then, the Elliot Rodger massacre happened. My Facebook was flooded with articles from feminists blaming masculinity for the massacre and insinuating that men were ticking time bombs, inclined to rape or kill at any moment, and that "all women" lived in paralyzing fear.

However, given my history, I understood the concept of frustration over not being attractive or wanted by the opposite sex (though I didn't understand or agree with the violent reaction). At this point, I was being told that, by being upset over not being able to attract women, men were "acting entitled to women's bodies." Not feeling inadequate and unattractive-- feeling "entitled"; and these men were not looking for women's attention, love, sex, or intimacy--it's "their bodies." I knew something was not right listening to this nonsense.

Also, I was told that guys in the "friend zone" were manipulative, deceptive, sniveling, entitled pieces of shit who "expected" sex for being nice to women. Living in the real world, I understood the "friend zone" as something men put themselves in because they erroneously thought they could attract women by essentially being their doormats and/or by being too afraid to be up front about their feelings. Living in the real world, I understood that these men were naive, not evil manipulators. I also understood that few people blamed these women for not dating these guys.

I saw the #notallmen hashtag as legitimate defense against this gross generalization and distortion of masculinity and male sexuality that I was seeing around me(though I didn't directly participate). Instead of tempering themselves, the feminists doubled down, engaging in anger and mockery over the hashtag. In my mind there was only one reason for this--because they wanted to paint "all men" as being "like that." How hard is it to say, "we recognize that, but we want to talk about guys who are like that, we'll do a better job of making this distinction clearer in the future?"

I also read nonsense such as articles saying men should cross the street when walking behind a woman walking alone, because otherwise they are scaring her. I read articles saying that women should be afraid of all men and should treat them as rapists until they establish that they are not.

In discourse over Elliot Rodger and feminism in general, dissent was often shouted down with cries of "mansplaining" and "derailing"!

Then I discovered this subreddit and the MRA movement. While I am grateful to be able to discuss criticism of feminism and also men's issues, I don't consider myself an MRA. I am more of a critic of feminism. Personally I think the issues of both genders (and those outside the binary) need to be considered in determining what is right and what should be fought for.

That being said, I am sympathetic to a movement whose still largely unknown name is constantly dragged through the mud by people uninterested in facts or reason, but rather interested only in ideology.

ParanoidAgnostic · 2014-07-11T00:05:25+00:00

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EvilPundit · 2014-07-10T22:50:14+00:00

I was a feminist, until I realised that feminism wasn't about equality - but for women having power over men in every aspect of their lives.

2014-07-11T02:13:33+00:00

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Lrellok · 2014-07-10T22:11:51+00:00

I attended Antioch college back around 2000, and it was the eye opener (though i only discovered MRM in the last year). As a SWM, i made a decision that since so many of the women i was around on a daily basis seemed to believe that me being interested in having sex with them was unacceptable, I would simply not have sex with anyone for a couple of years (not that hard to do actually, if you stop prioritizing sex as a life goal).
To this day i remember as clear as crystal standing in a common room of a dorm with two lesbians berating me that i was not trying to sleep with any of their friends. The clincher was that every time i asserted that my no meant no, I was asked to justify my saying no (something they had repeatedly told me no one should ever be asked to do).
I have since been doing alot of work on economics, and it is very apparent that the closure of the wage gap has come entirely at the expense of men.
In 1965 the per employee output of the united states was $11,481 (719 billion in gdp, 62.6 million full time equivalent workers), Men (median) where paid $6,598, women's median $3,816, meaning men where paid $0.57 for every dollar they produced and women where paid $0.33 per dollar output, on average. In 2008 we had a per employee output of $112,802, with median male pay at $47,779, for $0.42 per dollar output, and women's median pay at $36,688, or $0.33 per dollar, unchanged in 43 years. Yes this construction is socialist (though not marxists). The data is from the census and the BEA. This was even more of a wake up call. The stated objectives of feminism (depending on whom you ask) are 1) equality for men and women 2) the advancement of women, or 3) the liberation of women. While the above data does meet with definition #1, it flies in the face of definition 2 and 3 (a worker who cooks a loaf of bread that they can keep a single slice is not free). In addition, it can hardly be called progressive, something i do and will continue to support.
I signed up for the advancement of all people to an equal level of prosperity and freedom. I did not sign up to get taken off at the legs for the sake of others feelings.

2014-07-11T01:09:06+00:00

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Poperiarchy · 2014-07-10T22:14:08+00:00

I was all for feminism until I learned that they seek to for example criminalize paternity testing and school men to see cuckolding as a normal way of life.

dejour · 2014-07-10T22:02:08+00:00

I was a feminist until, ironically, a female sociology professor asked us to raise our hands if we were feminists; I was one of just three men, but nearly all the women did so. She then defined feminism on the board as "equal rights, opportunities, and responsibilities" before asking again; this time nearly all of the men had their hands up, including myself, while only a couple of women did.

Why did this complete reversal happen? The men believed in equality, the feminists didn't believe in equal responsibility.

Note: There were a couple conservative immigrants, male and female, who disagreed with both feminism and equal responsibility, but that's another issue.

typhonblue · 2014-07-10T23:15:24+00:00

hahahaha... oh my.

My anger at feminism is rooted deep in a sense of betrayal.

ParanoidAgnostic · 2014-07-10T23:30:40+00:00

I was a feminist by default. I grew up in a society which taught me that you were either stupid, evil, backward or feminist. I certainly didn't consider myself stupid, evil or backward so that left me with one option.

My 'disillusionment' came when I realised that the belief in equality regardless of gender was just a cover story.

Germaine Greer's views on transsexuals didn't help.

SRSLovesGawker · 2014-07-11T00:16:25+00:00

I never thought of myself as a feminist, although I was (and remain) largely positive towards the aspirational goals of feminism. People shouldn't be paid less for equal work, people shouldn't be treated unfairly by government institutions based on their gender, etc.

My problem with feminism has largely been due to feminists and how incredibly shitty they feel they can be to people who are "other", and with some latter-day strains of feminism that seem to want to go beyond a desire for equality and into the area of female supremacy.

I still firmly believe in, and hope for, a just and fair society that treats people as equals. I'm also convinced that feminism is an increasingly poor choice of approach to that end given various feminist organization's direct opposition to remedies for disadvantages men face (eg. NOW's blanket opposition to reformation/equalization of child custody laws) and support for reforms that explicitly remove rights for men only (eg. attempts to erode due process protections for men accused of sexual assault).

Well, that, plus there's a whole bunch of self-described feminist who gleefully declare their hatred of men outright. Not exactly an endearing trait.

swimminginthesky · 2014-07-11T01:23:10+00:00

I never considered myself a feminist, but I thought I agreed with their goals from when I was 8 and first heard of the inequalities women face, until I was around 20 and realized a lot of things.

I was aware some feminists were nutjobs, but I used to think they were a minority. I realized they were actually the vast majority thanks to the internet, and the feminist communities I found online.

In the end it wasn't the actual opinions of feminists that opened my eyes, it was their constant rejection of logic. I went there expecting reasonable discussions with reasonable people, and instead I found people who just wanted to defend their opinions at all costs, even if it meant contradicting themselves, applying double standards, using a mountain of logical fallacies... Whatever worked to stick to their position and keep pretending they're right. Zero interest in actual, open-minded discussion.

There was also the fact that most feminist communities forbid criticism entirely. If it isn't officially written in the rules, then the members are hostile to criticism and shout it down (or censor it somehow). This is a huge red flag in spotting extremist groups: reasonable people tend to subscribe to the idea that if one's beliefs are correct, then they can withstand scrutiny. It's extremists who approve of sticking their fingers in their ears and ignoring criticism that can prove them wrong, or even outright censoring said criticism as if they're the only ones who should get to speak.

When nearly every community dedicated to your movement is like that, then it's safe to say that overall your movement is extremist and moderate people are the actual minority. Feminism is a movement of hate and female supremacy, pretending to be a movement for equality. I stand by that statement now.

dainty_flower · 2014-07-11T00:58:29+00:00

I was a feminist, in the 90's back when feminism was about "equal rights, responsibilities and opportunities." I believed being female shouldn't make it harder to become an engineer. What I experienced was that my gender wasn't an issue at all, my career has been awesome.

I'm no longer a feminist because apparently the word changed to mean:

"More rights and opportunities than men, because 30 years ago men had WAY more privilege and all men (and boys) should be punished for that - - indefinitely."

That's totally contradictory to the original intention of equality.

LoneRanger21 · 2014-07-11T00:42:15+00:00

I didn't have much of an opinion on feminism for many years, despite having several friends in Women Studies. There were obviously extremes, like any ideology, but empowerment is a good thing, right?

But I was a poster on PZ Myer's blog when Elevatorgate went down and seeing how 'enlightened' feminists dictating the way men must prostrate themselves before women (lest they suffer any degree of unease) blew my mind.

Pornography_saves_li · 2014-07-11T01:19:56+00:00

Yeah I used to think feminism meant treating men and women exactly the same. I was on board with that shit. But then I realized just how selfish, hateful, and paranoid the very ideology is. I read about the history of feminism going all the way back to the white feather campaign and realized that everything good I'd been told about feminism was a lie. According to records from day one feminists were out for personal gain with no regard for equality or fairness. I realized how deceptive and manipulative feminists are by calling everything they want "equality" or a "right" while calling anyone who disagrees with them a "misogynist" or a "hate group."

Feminism is nothing more than a vehicle for entitled women to get sympathy and material gain. This generation of women is stricken with princess-syndrome where they think they deserve everything under the sun just for being a woman and they want to be able to express hatred and vitriol towards men without ever being the target of even criticism, let alone the same level of hate they show men. So they hide behind feminism and use feminist rhetoric to excuse their own hatred and personal failures.

The silver lining is that steel sharpens steel. And while feminists seem to have a strong innate talent for lies and deception, by relying on shaming tactics and literally believing their own insane and childish circular arguments like patriarchy theory and male privilege, they've actually made themselves stupider. And feminism is cancer to a country's economy. As the US slides further into debt feminism will be the fat that is cut.

Django117 · 2014-07-11T05:19:14+00:00

I would have called myself a feminist up until high school and very recently.

It started in my 8th grade year when I had just moved to a new city. There was this girl on the bus who I had begun to get to know. She was cute, but kinda dorky and quirky. Anyways she and I became friends. Eventually I came to have a crush on her. Then in 9th grade we were both in Marching Band. We grew closer as a result. Then one of my friends (total douche, but that's about 5 different stories years down the road) asks if I liked her. To which awkward 9th grade me replied no. He then asked if I was okay with him asking her out. Deep down this was something I didn't really fear. I was totally fine with it at the time since I thought she would say no or they would break up shortly there after.

Fastforward a little while. They're dating and their relationship is all sorts of weird. They are that couple that breaks up every month and gets back together a week later. I am her friend and shoulder to cry on while I secretly had a crush on her. Classic high school crush thing. Eventually they break up for what I believe is the final time and are apart for quite a while. During this time I heard her refer to me as "her bitch". I shrugged it off but it really hurt and made me re-evaluate my social life at the time. I realized I was the only one putting forth any effort to even be friends so I took a step back and asked if it was worth it. I realized then how she was so manipulative, expecting me to act the boyfriend without actually getting anything out of it. No deeper relationship. No hugs. No kisses. etc. After that I decided that I would stop actually initiating our interactions and see how she would respond. She didn't. It was at this moment that I realized how badly friend zoned I was.

Over the next year I had really turned my social life around. Expanded my friend circle and even dated a girl for a few months. Then I actually talked to one of my friends about how I had been friend zoned by this original girl. I was immediately met with "UGH YOU JUST WANTED SEX FROM HER? YOU ENTITLED MAN. YOU CAN'T JUST PUT FRIENDSHIP IN AND GET SEX OUT." and things of this nature. I was completely astounded. Sure, I had wanted sex, but that was just something of any teenager. I wanted to date her. For the emotional aspect of it all. To be with her on a deeper level. But no, if I was friend zoned I must have been entitled. I then read on the internet in tons of feminist blogs how friend zoning was manipulating women.

After about a year of feeling really bad about that whole thing and feeling like friend zoning was somehow wrong now I saw a video on reddit by this woman about friend zoning. (my situation is about identical to the one she described) This was really when I realized how manipulative feminism was being. She explained that men are being blamed for an internal crisis in many women where they shift the blame in this situation to the man rather than realizing what they did. This was what really began my dislike of feminism. I now saw a place in which I had been wronged by feminist thought. I now began to question what caused people to have those thoughts and so I researched it.

I then discovered all the hypocrisy and misandry that is in our world. I keep reading about it and realize how much feminism really hurts me today. It vilifies me and makes me look like an asshole for just waking up in the morning.

Fastforward about a year. I have a girlfriend who I have been dating for quite some time now (the one I am currently with) and we start discussing feminism. Then during our discussion I begin pointing out some of the problems men have. She immediately responds: "Oh that's how men are viewed in society? Well that's their own fucking fault then, because it's a society that they rule". At this point it all clicks. I realize why I hate feminism and why feminism hates me. Feminism is out for revenge against men. There's no plea for equality, only placing women higher on the pedestal. Sure feminism has applications in other countries where there are rampant sex trafficking and in which women don't have the right to vote but in the west, it is very inappropriate and just being used to put women even higher into power.

With this new realization I have been slowly trying to whittle away at my girlfriend's arguments over feminism and how it truly is a manipulative. Including arguments about rape and how it should be treated as a greater issue, not a women's issue and how men are vilified in any rape case. How I am completely under her thumb if she were to accuse me of rape and that I would be kicked out of my university and labelled a sex offender. How the pay gap is manipulative and completely non-existent. How feminism makes women always be the victim. The list goes on and on and so do our arguments. By the end of every single one she is fuming and angry with me. And I see why. She sees feminism as a part of her, that it's her reason for being smart and educated. That it's her reason for being strong. But it is manipulative and when I point it out to her she feels conflicted and thus angry at me for pointing out the flaws in her logic.

I think the only point she has actually argued that even holds any water is that women need to branch out into more fields since many STEM fields are still male dominated.

I have really been ranting like crazy here. If any of you have read all my random ranting, thanks for hearing me out :P

Tmomp · 2014-07-11T03:03:38+00:00

I was aligned with feminism for a long time. I even helped with my college's Take Back The Night rally after feeling it was a powerful experience one year. I may have called myself a feminst at times, but I always felt uncomfortable with the term since it sounded exclusionary, like it could only apply to women.

I didn't think much of gender issues for a while after college. When I started having more meaningful relationships with women, I found treating them with kid gloves got me dumped. I realized I had been putting them on a pedestal instead of treating them like people. Somehow growing up I had learned to regard them as better in relationships, more empathetic, and men as not understanding, only wanting sex. As I started treating women more like people, not like princesses, my relationships improved and I started questioning the views I had grown up with. I don't know if that relates to feminism or just other gender relations.

Anyway, when I found reddit I started seeing reference to this movement I'd never heard of and this subreddit. Before reading this subreddit I thought, "Oh god, what are these guys complaining about? I'm sure it's going to be a bunch of victims. I'm going to tear them a new one for being such idiots." Frankly, I did find a lot of people acting like victims, but I also started reading articles it linked to blatantly sexist, hurting men. I started seeing the sexsim, the stereotypes, and the issues -- unequal justice, unequal policing, ... but the most personal one for me was one that had been lingering since my seventeenth birthday telling me I had to register for the draft / selective service for my next birthday. The perspective here led me to see how my government sometimes valued men more dead than alive.

Eventually I read The Myth of Male Power, which brought everything into focus for being so well organized, starting from his consideration of power. The other day I was shopping with my girlfriend at a high-end mall. Nearly every store we went into opened to luxury goods for women. Store after store. Women have a lot of privilege here in the U.S. Like the sanitation guys Farrell interviewed, there are a lot of marginalized men getting hurt and dying that society doesn't care about, or even openly denigrates. Just the tip of the iceberg.

Since finding out about this community, I sometimes push gently on people's beliefs about misandry. Most seem completely blind to it. I find myself aghast until I remember that until recently I felt the same way. Now I can't believe how blatant it often is. There's a lot of violence against men, but I can't imagine a male Take Back The Night. Most people wouldn't just not support it, they'd openly denounce it.

Not sure if I answered the questions. The term feminist felt exclusionary and adopting its views blinded me to the gender roles hurting men and boys.

chocoboat · 2014-07-11T04:24:26+00:00

I used to identify as feminist (meaning someone who supports equal rights and equal treatment of men and women).

Then I started seeing how other feminists treat men. Plenty of men want to discuss gender issues and how various problems should be solved. But literally any time a man says anything other than "I agree", he's accused of being hateful or clueless, he's "mansplaining", he's part of the problem, and he will be silenced.

I don't identify as feminist or MRA, because so many people believe those to mean "I'm on this gender's side and I hate the other gender and think they're the enemy". I'm interested in discussing gender issues for both sides... but I only post in here because I was banned from /r/feminism because the fact that I've posted in /r/mensrights must mean I'm a misogynistic troll who is trying to bait women into saying ugly things.

tallwheel · 2014-07-11T01:47:11+00:00

I considered myself a feminist, but I don't really have an interesting story of how I found the MRM. I had a breakup with a somewhat abusive non-feminist woman, and googling I found shrink4men, and avoiceformen through that. The ideas were logical, and made far more sense than anything feminist I'd ever read.

KngpinOfColonProduce · 2014-07-11T01:51:53+00:00

I considered myself a feminist, or at least aligned with their beliefs, in grade school. I believed in equality, and thought feminists truly wanted it. I believed women got the short end of the stick sometimes, compared to men; so, while I wasn't really an internet poster at that time (90s) I had a white knight mentality. And I believed in the blank slate theory of human nature, as most feminists include in their doctrine. My main experiences that I can remember involved some female teachers occasionally mentioning something good about feminism. None of that extremist feminism stuff, and no anti-feminist opinions except strawmen.

My anti-feminism rose up slowly, starting in high school. First it was, as silly as it may sound, the shrill and no-tolerance anti-porn stance. I was a teenage boy who had been masturbating innocently to internet porn. Supposedly, this objectified and oppressed women. Men who looked at it were evil. But, this seemed too extreme, and wrong. I didn't really have the words for it (it's still not so easy), but it felt unfair to pick out male viewers and women in pornography. It further sounded ridiculous to suggest my private masturbation to porn had any negative effect on someone. Finally, this is part of my sexuality - my masturbation, my fantasies, my turn-ons - and it seemed offensive to suggest that it is evil or is even anyone else's business.

Over the years, issues occasionally added up to my anti-feminism. I'll mention one important step. I got into evolutionary psychology, which challenged my views on the human blank slate, and, to my gratitude, changed them. This contradicted some feminist ideas, such as the lack of female engineers being necessarily from sexism. Indeed, I read Stephen Pinker's the blank slate, and in it he debunks the wage gap. Intentional blindness to how human nature influences some sex differences, in order to benefit women, made me feel distrustful of and a little disgusted at the feminist movement.

Less interesting, this is how I joined the MRM.

In my early 20s, I was still just an anti-feminist, and had never heard of the MRM. Let's look briefly at how I got into this movement. I had been into the atheist movement since high school (though largely just lurking and reading books). I had also been into gaming. Involvement in these two things eventually brought my attention and support to the movement.

Atheism+. I still remember that fateful blogpost by Jen McCreight in late 2012 (couldn't find it quickly, so sorry for not linking it) asking for "atheism+". It had come after drama over elevator-gate and paranoia over sexism at atheist conferences had erupted. I remember thinking while reading the blogpost: oh no, this better not take off, or it will probably catastrophically damage the movement. It did take off. Many atheists sprung from this movement in the opposite direction, including me. So I was looking through atheism+ related videos one day, and came across Karen Straughan on YouTube. What she said was revolutionary to my thoughts about men, women, and society. I agreed with most of what she said in one video. But ultimately I did not buy into the movement. It was too ground-shaking for one sitting. I mean, sure, men have problems, as she points out, but men aren't oppressed. That's just silly.

Anita Sarkeesian. Gaming is a new arena where feminists have recently been driving their bulldozers into a perfectly fine camp. This time, there has been much less damage. Despite Tropes vs. Women popping up earlier than atheism+, I believe this was the latter of my two introductory encounters with the MRM. I found Karen Straughan again, surfing for videos commenting on Anita's. This time I looked through more videos. Soon I became a convert. This was early 2013.

Tangent:

This is a much more reasonable movement than feminism. You can see that just by looking at free speech tolerance, such as which YouTube videos allow or disallow comments and ratings. On YouTube, I noticed with amusement that while atheist videos were open to commentary and ratings, everyone who fell in line with atheism+, as far as I could see, started restricting them immediately. Bad ideas are sometimes surprisingly easy to spot with online censorship these days.

Methodius_ · 2014-07-11T04:20:27+00:00

I grew up with a domineering, abusive mother being the person who primarily took care of me. So while I did have a pretty masculine father (in the sense that he does backbreaking work 60 hours a week to keep the household afloat, loves cars and fishing, etc etc), I learned most of everything about life from her.

So of course, I grew up being taught to basically treat women like princesses. And I grew up thinking my father was evil, and kept hearing all of these stories about how other men were evil. Etc, etc. This no doubt helped lead to the bigger relationships in my life, where I've basically been used and abused by women and told that I was generally a bad person, even when I change everything about myself that these women want and more. But I digress.

After I became a teenager and my friends and girlfriends pointed out to me what a bitch and hypocrite my mother is, I started moving away from it. Though, being in the society we are in, I still had the generic feeling that women had less rights than men and that they deserved equal treatment. I still generally feel this way.

In my relationship with my current girlfriend, though, I constantly found myself in arguments over feminist issues with her. Before I'd even really looked into the MRM. I'm a very logical person by nature, so when I heard my girlfriend go on about how the abortion laws were being fought and changed because "Republicans want to control women", I of course spoke my peace and said that I thought that was not the case. Even as a liberal, I don't believe that. If anything, I'd say Republicans (or at least the ones in office) want to control everyone in one way or another: poor people, gay people, women, people of color, etc. These sorts of arguments happened more and more frequently as time went on.

Then, roughly around the time of the Isla Vista killings I started to really look into the MRM. Up until that point, I was of the typical opinion that MRAs were a bunch of neckbeards whining about being friendzoned (and the idea that there were female MRAs was completely foreign to me). But when I saw a bunch of people trying to blame men for the Isla Vista killings, saying MRAs were somehow responsible, that seemed like a bit of a jump in logic to me. So I came here and started looking things up. I saw the FAQ on the sidebar and spent a while reading it. I read the stories linked there, about men having issues getting custody of their children, even when their wives were abusive.

In particular, a hypothetical story in another sub that a guy wrote sticks out to me. The one where he says that a woman can stop taking their birth control without telling you, get pregnant, refuse to get an abortion, and stick you with child support for the rest of your life. The story ends with the dude losing his job because of the economy and nearly winding up in jail. It was an eye opener. The fact that this sort of thing probably happens and is completely legal shocked me.

After that, I spent a long time simply lurking here, reading through various articles and stories. About a month ago, fearing discovery by my girlfriend, I decided to make a throwaway account so I could participate. I still find myself occasionally falling back on my old, default thoughts, but the more I stick around the more I'm seeing things from the MRM's point of view. And while I am still for equal rights between men and women, and I acknowledge that women face many problems in society, I doubt I would ever call myself a feminist again.

Keiichi81 · 2014-07-11T06:26:26+00:00

I used to be very active in both the atheist community as well as the gaming community. If you had asked me 3 years ago, I would've said that I was a very strong supporter of feminism. Then in the space of barely a year both Rebecca Watson's "Elevatorgate" and the rise of "Atheism+" happened to the atheist community as well as Anita Sarkeesian's "Tropes vs Women" and it's associated Kickstarter shenanigans happened to the gaming community, and I watched as defenders of both descended under the banner of feminism to spread hatred, bigotry, hypocrisy, irrationality, idiocy, and appeals to emotion under the auspices of "checking privilege"; accusing anyone who disagreed with them of being a misogynist--of hating women by pointing out the logical flaws in their arguments. It slowly dawned on me that most of these people were not only the very thing they claimed to be against, but were absolutely, 100% batshit fucking insane.

I then watched men's groups be denied the right to meet in schools while women's groups were allowed to meet without issue. I watched men's issues be dismissed or ignored by feminists, while insisting that feminism was fighting for men. I watched feminist groups lobby against domestic violence shelters for men, and watched existing domestic violence shelters turn men away because admitting them might make female victims uncomfortable. I watched feminists continually find new ways to classify consensual sex as rape and bemoan the "rape culture" in America, while constantly working to deny that male rape victims existed or were even possible. I watched the President of the United States stand on national television and repeat a "77 cents" statistic which I knew to be disingenuous. And every time I tried to raise awareness of these concerns, I was told that being white and having a penis meant that my opinion wasn't worth hearing. From people who claimed to be about equality.

I could no longer in good conscience continue to support modern feminism. Shortly thereafter, I discovered /r/mensrights.

ExpendableOne · 2014-07-11T14:33:19+00:00

This is a copy/paste of an answer I wrote to the same question in another subreddit:

I was a male feminist when I mistakenly believed that feminism was about gender equality(as I had been informed by women throughout my life, many of which I respected, trusted or looked up to). Being a male feminist, however, made me realise that feminism was everything but equal and really not about equality. When there was an issue that affected both men and women, or that even affected me personally as a man, it was cut in half and made to be all about the women. Not only ignoring the way men were affected by these issues, if not even significantly more so(as is the case with assault and even sexual assault) but men were also presented as the root and cause for every issue(disregarding all and any complicity/malevolence from women).

When I tried to empathize with women, show them love, patience and support, all I got in return was indifference, disdain, disrespect and belittlement for it because it was meek and unmasculine. When I brought this up as an issue, I was labelled as a "nice guy™", was accused of being entitled to sex, treating women like objects/sex dispensers and accused of only being nice/good to women to get sex from them(all of which couldn't be further from the truth). When I pointed out that my heterosexuality or my desires for love/intimacy with women were both normal, natural and healthy, and that they shouldn't be vilified, misrepresented to fit their misandric projections or used to shut me up, I was labelled a misogynist and a rape-supporter.

When I tried to bring up my experiences, the sexism, injustice, abuse, gender hate and the harassment/violence I had be subjected to, I was told to shut up and take it like a man, that it was my fault for being weak, gullible or a doormat or that it didn't matter/wasn't as bad because of "patriarchy". When I brought up discrepancies in their ideologies, blatant misandry, unanswered double-standards and delusional misrepresentations of reality, I was told I was a misogynist, a rape-supporter and a "neck-beard virgin" who was derailing(despite the fact that the "what about the menz" or "triggers" are far more derailing, and intentionally so, than trying to address issues honestly and from all facets). When I expressed that women should be held to the same standards as men are, and that they could be just as sexist, spiteful, hateful, violent and destructive as men(if not often even more so because they can get away with it a lot easier), I was told to shut up, nothing can/should be done about it and then labelled a misogynist.

When I found it sexist to be excluded from certain discussions because of my gender or that women/feminists would champion "women-only spaces" out of disdain and irrational fears against men, or bad faith/denial of opinions coming from men, while they simultaneously not only attacked any/all men-only spaces but any space where men happened to hold a majority, I was told it was okay because "patriarchy" and "male power". When I pointed out that women held as much power, if not significantly more, as men but in different ways or that the greater potential for physical strength and the higher population of men in prominent positions weren't really all they were made up to be(especially not when they are used to serve and enforce female interests more often than men's), I was told none of that mattered because "patriarchy" and it's still men just being oppressive.

When I pointed out the double-standards and issues in expecting men to do all the work and take all the risks in dating while defending the idea that women shouldn't have to do the same for men, or that it's something women shouldn't feel entitled to and expect from men, I was called a loser and a deadbeat. When I pointed out that men explicitly waiting for consent to even approach women romantically would only work if women were considerably more explicit and proactive in expressing their consent, and that the guys who disregarded these rules were the ones who were ones who persistently rewarded by women while the ones who followed them were simply putting themselves at a major disadvantage(if not even a state of involuntary celibacy), and that these mix messages were inconsistent and damaging to good men, I was told to deal with it and that I shouldn't feel "entitled to sex".

When I pointed out that feminists used a lot of "revised history" to push certain agendas, painting women throughout history as slaves and oppressed in every capacity(which, if anything, paints women as being inherently inferior rather than equals), I was again labelled a rape-supporter and a misogynist. When I pointed out the double-standards that society and feminists had about rape against women(treating it like a crime worse than death, castration or mutilation) and male rape(treating it as a joke, deserved punishment or something to be thankful of), I was again labelled a misogynist and a rape supporter. When I pointed out the disparities in court handling and relationship/marriage entitlements from women, I was told to man up and accept it, or be alone forever. When I pointed out that disparities in STEM fields had nothing to do with discrimination against women or a lack of incentive(anyone who has any real interest or knowledge of STEM fields would know this couldn't be further from the truth) but instead caused by prejudice, disdain and a lack of interest towards those fields from women(a lot of which stems directly from misandry and a lack of respect/appreciation for meek/nerdy men who are associated to those fields).

When I found it sexist to be presumed to be a potential rapist and a child-predator first, a person second, because I was a male, or pointed out how destructive this mentality was to men, their relationships with women/children and dismissive of female abusers, rapists and paedophiles, I was accused of being a rape/paedophile supporter and a potential rapist/paedophile. When I expressed that false accusations and slander against men shouldn't be taken lightly just because it benefits women, and that they were harmful, destructive and dangerous(sometimes more so than the crimes they'd be falsely accused of), I was again labelled a misogynist and a rape-supporter, and told that this kind of stuff never happens(even though I had slander and misrepresentation of my character cost me friendships, opportunities and personal safety, simply because a manipulative and sociopathic friend wanted to hurt me personally; apathetic, disdainful, harmful and even criminal words/acts that went completely unreprimanded because she was a woman, that garnered credence/sympathy because she was a woman and that I had no recourse against because I was a man).

Despite the facts that I have never raped, would never rape and would sacrifice my personal safety to protect women from rape without even giving it a second thought(which is considerably more than any woman has ever done, or be expected to do, for me), feminists still call me a rape-supporter. Even when I am surrounded by women, all of which I love, support, defend and empower, I am still labelled a misogynist. Even when I am constantly subjected to, and victimized by, sexism and female power/entitlements and find myself completely powerless against it, I am still labelled an oppressor. Even when I try to approach these issues with honesty, sympathy and empathy, I am labelled a derailer and a traitor.

So, fuck feminism. They use the ideals of equality as a shield while serving nothing but their own personal interests or the emotional whims of women, often at the direct expense of men. Feminists don't care about men, they don't even seem to feel the slightest bit of remorse or accountability for the ways they hurt men, allow cultural/social systems to continue hurting men and defend other individuals/actions that hurt men. Even the word itself, "feminism", is firmly rooted in bias. It is little more than a toxic cult, and it should be rejected. I'm an egalitarian and I'm a human's rights activists(women's, men's, white, black, gay, straight, etc).

mean0dean0 · 2014-07-11T16:30:00+00:00

I was a complete supporter of feminism, until feminism stopped supporting me. Feminist friends I had started mocking me, telling me to "check my privilege," and blaming anything and everything in society on people with the same gender as me (yes--that's sexism; not "historical advantage" or "patriarchal legacy," but blaming anyone for the problems of present-day society based on their gender is sexism). I didn't leave the feminist movement--I was pushed out.

The only differences I see between feminism and the MRM is that the MRM doesn't try to demonize either gender for social problems. Sure, they try to demonize feminism for the social problems we believe feminism has exacerbated, but those problems are ultimately society's problems and must be fought with more than just negative stereotyping and finger-pointing. If gender equality was the actual practiced goal of feminism rather than just the bait-and-switch fake advertisement for feminism's actual goal of victimology (the intentional damseling/victimhood status promotion for the purpose of gaining legal, political and social capital), most of us would probably still be "feminists."

The_Broken_Nigel · 2014-07-11T19:42:40+00:00

The moment I realized I wasn't a feminist was when I volunteered as a 'blocker' at a women's clinic in NV. A blocker is someone who escorts women into the clinic, physically forming a shield between protesters and the patient. I recieved a couple of open-handed slaps on the back, a couple of weak punches, no big deal. I was even able to smile and joke a little with the women as we turtled in. It felt good to help people who needed protection from fundies. I was a Good Guy: someone who didnt abuse women or rape people.

Once I had done my quota (six escorts), I checked in with the coordinator in the back of the clinic. She looked at me coldly up and down and told me curtly to 'go home'. Her expression fucking crushed me. It said that i wasnt an ally, but a Useful Idiot whom they managed to train to do a trick.

I knew then that i could never be a Good Guy, because there were no Good Guys. To feminists, all men were the enemy, because all men were evil. No matter how hard I tried, i could never be their friend.

jolly_mcfats · 2014-07-11T05:14:05+00:00

I grew up considering myself a feminist, and kept it up until I was 37? 38? At some point it became clear to me that my feminist LGBTQ friends considered me the exception to the rule, and the only thing keeping them from expressing hate of me was that they liked me, even though they had a problem with everything that constituted my intersectionality. Moreover, their feminisms dictated that that hate was completely justified and acceptable. I still like my friends, but I'm saddened by their ideology.

I came to the MRM because it was the group that could recognize how toxic some feminisms had become, and because it was the only group really examining modern masculinities in a sympathetic manner, and the only group exploring their issues.

throweezus · 2014-07-11T05:39:25+00:00

Honestly I don't participate in any special interest activities anymore save ones benefitting children, the developmentally disabled, or animals. Edit: And the Homeless.

I just get tired of having my motives for participation questioned, and the small percentage that just hate me for who/what I am.

TheCameraLady · 2014-07-11T05:40:44+00:00

I'm one, right here.

Mitthrawnuruodo1337 · 2014-07-11T05:47:20+00:00

I used to call myself a "classic feminist" trying to distance myself from modern feminism, in which I always recognized the obvious misandry. I bought into a lot of social disadvantage and whatnot, though. I was disillusioned when I actually looked into the wage gap (thanks to Thomas Sowell) and found it was demonstrably, unequivocally, and unashamedly nonsense (at least as it is always presented). As time went on I, too, found too many things in feminism that are likewise, and stopped trying to fit myself into the definition of feminist at all. A couple years later I found this sub.

mikesteane · 2014-07-11T06:14:46+00:00

I was a feminist for ages.

The first sign that hinted me that being a man was not all about privilege was when I was brought before the judge on a count of refusing to comply with the obligatory military service to my country. Happily, I won the case, but esentially, I had to fight in court not to be sent 500 miles away from home to serve in god knows what military vessel, for a country I don't feel as mine and a military I don't respect.

Then, at some point I ended up discovering manvwomanmyth's videos and then Karen's. They helped me see the plight of men and to reconnect with the empathy towards men I had lost to my feminist ideas.

Finally, I realized that I hated myself for being a man, so privileged and part of the oppressors. When I abandoned feminism, never to return, I recovered some self-respect and stop hating the masculine part of my identity. I feel much more at peace now that I don't follow an ideology that makes me hate myself and does not even accept me on equal terms with women feminists.

2014-07-11T06:54:54+00:00

I'm under 30 and from Canada, so like everyone in that demographic, I was raised a feminist. This may be why Canada has produced a sizable portion of the prominent members of the MRM.

alucidexit · 2014-07-11T10:04:22+00:00

I was never a feminist, but as a child, growing up around feminist women, I essentially had the attitude of a "white knight." It's kind of abusive when I think about it actually. I'd take it upon myself to be "the one who proved them wrong... that men could be good people" and they made sure that whenever I slipped up, to tell me that it was making them lose faith in men.

I remember the conversation when I finally stood up for myself. I shouted, "Stop judging me as a paragon of men. Stop judging my actions as actions that men do -- that's too much pressure for me. Judge my actions as actions alucidexit does." They stopped talking to me soon after... cut ties completely.

My attitude has changed for the better and I actually have more confidence in myself now that I'm not so concerned.

Underfolder · 2014-07-12T14:30:44+00:00

I don't know if I ever considered myself a feminist, but I was under the illusion that feminism was a movement for equality up until PZ Meyers and Rebecca Watson came along. They made me realize that the difference between moderate and extreme feminism is only in the degree to which men are viewed as undesirables. It even took a while to realize that their brand of crazy wasn't unique to them, but that feminism (at least modern feminism) was built upon a fundamentally bigoted foundation of pseudo-academic literature and ideological dogma. A lifelong atheist, I realized that feminism behaved in much the same way any religion does, with all the associated problems.

8bitsupera · 2014-07-11T02:09:53+00:00

Im one of those, I always stand up for injustice and civil rights, and i thought feminism was somehow important for society, but when i started to read and watch feminist videos all I saw was bias and emotional things with no facts to back it, when I realized that civil rights for women are exactly the same as for men in the western civilization, and while in the east they have women treated very badly and the feminists seems to not care at all, and only continue with the same speech about privileges and sexism, I realized it was a movement without any value to modern society, but it did had value sometime in a long time ago.

Roddy0608 · 2014-07-11T04:07:45+00:00

I always rejected the label.

MRSPArchiver · 2014-07-10T21:40:23+00:00

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knowless · 2014-07-11T03:32:15+00:00

Feminists: Lol bitch cry more faggot.

Title	Question: How many of you are disillusioned feminists?
Author	skysinsane
Upvotes	50
Comments	128
Date	July 10, 2014 9:40 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2adb8w/question_how_many_of_you_are_disillusioned/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/question-how-many-of-you-are-disillusioned.998134 https://theredarchive.com/post/998134

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