And the message is finally getting out there...

[+]TheOpposingView 10 years ago* [recovered] (78 children) | Copy Link

Are...doctors actually divided on this?

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[+]slodojo 10 years ago* [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

He was talking about infants feeling pain, not the practice of circumcision in general.

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This might offer hope for premature infants in the future, since their long-term outcomes bear a disturbing resemblance to the injured rats’. “By middle school, former preterm infants are at least 28 percent more likely to suffer from disorders of anxiety, depression, or inattention,” explained Victoria. “As young adults, they are at high risk for disorders of internalization and externalization, like anxiety, depression, or ADHD, and have problems with cognitive and behavioral flexibility.“

quoting the relevant part. also, for anyone that doesn't already know what adhd and depression can do to people.

Up to 15% of those who are clinically depressed die by suicide.

People with ADHD are twice as likely to die prematurely, often due to accidents

and in reference to circumcision specifically, it's been linked to alexythemia

https://www.academia.edu/6395216/Alexithymia_and_Circumcision_Trauma_A_Preliminary_Investigation

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[+]2rapey4you 10 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

here's just one source of many addressing their crimes. I don't think they should be completely annihilated, but they certainly shouldn't get the financial backing America gives them much less the guilt trip everyone goes on

http://www.globalresearch.ca/media-coverup-of-israeli-crimes-against-humanity-in-gaza-an-urgent-call-to-confront-the-mainstream-media/5400488

[–]HerbertRTarlekJr 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]manhani 10 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Wow I don't understand why a horrible country like Israel is getting backed up by the US

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literally from cancer.org:

In the past, circumcision (removing the foreskin on the penis) has been suggested as a way to lower penile cancer risk. This was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. But in some studies, the protective effect of circumcision was no longer seen after factors like smegma and phimosis were taken into account. In the United States, the risk of penile cancer is low even among uncircumcised men. Men who wish to lower their risk of penile cancer can do so in other ways, such as by avoiding human papilloma virus (HPV) and human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection and by not smoking. Men who aren’t circumcised can also lower their risk of penile cancer by practicing good genital hygiene. Although infant circumcision can lower the risk of penile cancer, based on the low risk of this cancer in the US, it would take over 900 circumcisions to prevent one case of penile cancer in this country.

so: the user above you is wrong

[–]HumanWithCauses 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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At least he got to experience and decide. Not everyone is the same, so the argument isn't "is it better to be cut or uncut", the argument is "why does bodily autonomy stop at the penis," or "why don't men get to make the decision to have elective surgery on their own genitals?"

If woman got a breast augmentation said she preferred big breasts to the small breasts that she used to have, that wouldn't be a good argument for mandatory breast augmentation for young girls, would it? Or perhaps a better example, Angelina Jolie had both of her breasts removed when she realized she had the genes for breast cancer. So why don't we just do mandatory gene testing and double mastectomies for young girls who have the genes? That way they don't have to worry about getting the mastectomies when they're older.

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[+]BlissfulM 10 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

I absolutely agree. People stop life all the time. It's not like a fetus is going to cry out "Oh my, I'm dying and I won't get to see my mom and I won't get to...." A fetus doesn't think. It's worse to kill a homeless dog than a fetus. Fetuses are living, but they are not people and they don't have a consciousness. The pro-lifers talk about saving the children, but then once the child is born, it's on its own, no matter what situation the mother is in. Welfare and food stamps? Get a fucking job. You can't support your 3 kids? You shouldn't have had them. Pro-lifers don't care about children. They care about being better than the rest of us. By the way, their God causes miscarriages all the time. Is he sinning too?

Abortions will continue regardless of any laws against them. To allow them is more civilized than to ban them unless society is willing to do what's necessary to ensure they get their needs met throughout their childhood.

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[+]PronounciationIsKey 10 years ago* [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

dude it's not a bad thing... you are just being crazy

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[+]PronounciationIsKey 10 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

if you believe it makes your dick smaller I'm pretty sure you're crazy lol

[–]PM_ME_STDS 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[+]RabbiDickButt 10 years ago [recovered] (9 children) | Copy Link

As a nurse in a labor and delivery unit, it is most often the fathers who want their sons to be circ'ed. It is clearly painful and the little boys always cry. The only objective benefit is it is a little cleaner. There are many reasons not to do the surgery, and yes it is a surgery, 5 forceps, a straight scissor, and a gomco clamp are used on a boy while his arms, leg, and chest are strapped down. Personally, I think the parents should be made to watch an example of the surgery before they opt for a circumcision.

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[–]Machnow 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Nah, breastfeeding, bloodtests? ok strawman. the fact you advocate the removal of healthy skin from a perfect baby says a lot about you, and what you're reachin for.....is..... Discrimination......it's about EQUAL protection under law, girls have it, boys don't. I mentioned girls, but you didn't answer the question. how come? Oh, right, hang on a sec...the "medical benefits", you mean like this one from you're link: "Clinical research has found circumcision can safeguard an infant from a number of health complications, most notably urinary tract infections. Kidney damage develops in about half of infants who contract a UTI. The adult lifetime risk for a UTI is approximately 1 in 3 for uncircumcised men" We have 3 kids, 1 boy, 2 girls.....our boy is uncircumcised, but strangely...both our girls developed ut infections within their first year. when we took them to the Doctor, oddly enough, he didn't recommend cutting some skin off their genitals to prevent further infections...but rather gave them an antibiotic. how strange...and it worked!

give up, you can't win, your position is not defendable. I got a comeback for every dumbass point you can think off..... here you go, edumacate yerself:

"Urinary tract infections (UTIs) are common in kids. By the time they're 5 years old, about 8% of girls and about 1-2% of boys have had at least one."

from this link:

http://kidshealth.org/en/parents/urinary.html

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[+]woohoo 10 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

so I would only last 15 seconds instead of the 35 seconds I typically last in bed?

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[+]slodojo 10 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Reduces sexual arousal?

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I'm a pro lifer and I really don't care that much if the baby feels pain or not and I can't imagine that is the reasoning for those laws. The problem I have with abortion is that I believe is that I think you are killing a human baby, if they had some way of making it guaranteed 100% painless that really wouldn't change anything as far as I'm concerned.

Male (and female I suppose but that's already illegal) circumcision is a completely unnecessary operation. It should be illegal because it does nothing but harm for no point.

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What a stupid meme

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[+]throwawaymd123 10 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Because a surgical procedure and death are two separate things. Ask yourself if you would pick from a hat one or the other option for a loved one. There is no equivalence here.

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You outed yourself as pro male genital mutilation when you said you will be mutilating your son's penis.

The practise of circumcision on infants has rape like aspects that I would argue together create a practice of sexualised molestation of infants, aka rape.

For example it involves manual stimulation of the babies penis to obtain erection. Also in many cases it involves oral to genital contact as the person performing the mutilation drinks the blood of the cut penis as part of the ritual. Many infants die every year from contracting herpes on their genitals from this contact.

Then there is the literal penetration of the infants erect penis using implements prior to the cutting.

These elements combined with the fact that there is no valid medical reason for the mutilation. None whatsoever.

Further the infant does not and cannot consent.

So we have highly sexualised contact between adults and infants involving mutilation sadism oral sex and blood drinking.

These features considered together are quite simply rape.

They are also mutilation without consent and a violation of bodily autonomy.

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I agree, I don't know why OP compared them, but since they're being discussed together, here goes. An adult always has the option to take their own life (what I was referencing with the Self-abort comment), to suggest otherwise is silly. It's not something I would do, or recommend, but it is an option.

I would rather pay a little more in taxes if it meant less people were being killed, it's one of the few reasons I would be ok with a tax increase. What if the person who is aborted could grow up into a tax payer, not a burden to society? Would you rather deprive society of their potential talents simply because people can't handle the consequences of their life decisions?

If abortion is a minor consequence then tell me with a straight face you wouldn't care if you or your wife (obviously not wishing this on you in any way) lost a baby during a pregnancy. That there is no moral difference between kicking a pregnant woman down a flight of stairs and doing the same to a normal man. That women should be allowed to drink, do drugs, and smoke during a pregnancy. If the injury or death of a fetus is a minor consequence than why do we go out of our way to help pregnant women lift heavy things? Why give a crap about the Zika virus? If a fetus is not a person than this virus has zero long term effects on people.

Edit: FYI I'm actually pro choice, even though I consider it murder. I just want people to recognize it for what it is. If people can admit that it's murder and are still willing to do it, that's upsetting but not my problem.

[–]Beltox2pointO 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]rwwman50 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Things can be morally wrong and legally ok. Many things I think are horrible I wouldn't want outlawed, and many things I think are wrong that are illegal I would be ok with seeing legalized.
This kind of fits my ideology in the way to view morality and the law.

The following is written on the tomb of an Anglican Bishop in Westminster Abby (1100 A.D):

"When I was young and free and my imagination had no limits, I dreamed of changing the world. As I grew older and wiser, I discovered the world would not change, so I shortened my sights somewhat and decided to change only my country.

"But it, too, seemed immovable.

"As I grew into my twilight years, in one last desperate attempt, I settled for changing only my family, those closest to me, but alas, they would have none of it.

"And now, as I lie on my deathbed, I suddenly realize: If I had only changed myself first, then by example I would have changed my family.

"From their inspiration and encouragement, I would then have been able to better my country, and who knows, I may have even changed the world."

[+]RepetitiveStrain 10 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I think they're divided on if the circumcised baby can remember the pain and if it will affect them mentally. I can certainly feel pain it still has the sense is to feel pain.

Can it feel pain is important here if the question is can it remember the pain? does it affect the fetus? for the abortion case... I mean obviously if you kill it is not going to have much memory of it so I guess they focus more on can it feel pain.

[–]RepetitiveStrain1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[+]Satans0nion -43 points-42 points-41 points 10 years ago (86 children) | Copy Link

[–]Consilio_et_Animis 43 points44 points45 points 10 years ago (75 children) | Copy Link

There is no negative side to it.

Sure — dream on LOL!

1: Women prefer intact penises. And elsewhere you can find men do as well!

Source: http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/60750.html

http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/ohara/

2: Masturbation feels better.

Source: http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/

3: Circumcision significantly reduces sensitivity.

Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x/epdf

http://www.livescience.com/1624-study-circumcision-removes-sensitive-parts.html

4: Despite the reduced sensitivity, there is no change to lasting longer during sex.

Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00070.x/abstract;jsessionid=E233A9E106A9 A6D724B4E3606446784E.d03t01

5: Cut men have a more difficult time fapping.

Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00070.x/abstract;jsessionid=E233A9E106A9

Which was the reason it was promoted in the USA in the first place.

http://english.pravda.ru/science/health/27-03-2006/77873-circumcision-0/

6: Circumcision increases risk of erectile dysfunctions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14979200&dopt= Abstract|

7: If too much skin is removed in circumcision, it can make the penis smaller since the dong needs some skin to expand during an erection:

http://www.altermd.com/Penis%20and%20Scrotal%20Surgery/buried_penis.htm

http://www.drgreene.com/azguide/inconspicuous-penis

8: Circumcision does not lower the risk of AIDS.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22096758/

9: Circumcision is more hygienic. Who the heck doesn't clean their penis? It's a three second job you do when you shower so this is not a valid argument. Women produce 10 times as much smegma as men - so it's OK to amputate an infant girls' labia lips so she doesn't have to wash them??

10: Circumcised foreskin sold to cosmetic manufacturers for profit:

http://voices.yahoo.com/human-foreskins-big-business-cosmetics-201840.html

11: Erectile dysfunction 4.5 times more likely to occur if you're circumcised

http://www.thewholenetwork.org/14/post/2011/08/does-circumcision-cause-erectile-dysfunction.html etc

12: Stanford's school of medicine list of circumcision complications (including infection, haemorraging, skin-bridging, phimosis, amputation and death):

http://newborns.stanford.edu/CircComplications.html

13: Cut infants get long-term changes in pain response from the trauma of being circumcised

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731

14: Circumcision decreases penile sensitivity

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102?dopt=Abstract

15: Circumcision associated with sexual difficulties

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

16: Circumcision linked to alexithymia

http://www.mensstudies.com/content/2772r13175400432/?p=a7068101fbdd48819f10dd04dc1e19fb&pi=4

17: The exaggeration of the benefits of circumcision in regards to HIV/AIDS transmission

http://jme.bmj.com/content/36/12/798.abstract

18: Circumcision/HIV claims are based on insufficient evidence

http://www.4eric.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/MC.pdf

19: There is no case for the widespread implementation of circumcision as a preventative measure to stop transmission of AIDS/HIV

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1753-6405.2011.00761.x/full

20: Circumcision decreases sexual pleasure

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17155977

21: Circumcision decreases efficiency of nerve response in the glans of the penis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

22: Circumcision policy is influenced by psychosocial factors rather than alleged health benefits

http://www.circumcision.org/policy.htm

23: Circumcision linked to pain, trauma, and psychosexual sequelae

http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/boyle6/

24: Circumcision results in significant loss of erogenous tissue

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8800902

25: Circumcision has negligible benefit

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9091693

26: Neonatal circumcision linked to pain and trauma

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731

27: Circumcision may lead to need for increased care and medical attention in the first 3 years of life

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9393302

28: Circumcision linked to psychological trauma

http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/goldman1/

29: Circumcision may lead to abnormal brain development and subsequent deviations in behaviour

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10657682

30: CONCLUSIONS: This study confirms the importance of the foreskin for penile sensitivity, overall sexual satisfaction, and penile functioning: Furthermore, this study shows that a higher percentage of circumcised men experience discomfort or pain and unusual sensations as compared with the uncircumcised population.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102?dopt=Abstract

31: CONCLUSIONS: Circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties in Danish men and with a range of frequent sexual difficulties in women, notably orgasm difficulties, dyspareunia and a sense of incomplete sexual needs fulfilment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

32: CONCLUSION: There was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17155977

33: CONCLUSIONS: The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

[–]Kirril 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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I'm not going to respond to all of that. You do make some decent points. As far as women perfecting it, like I said, it is cultural. In the United States people make fun of having an uncircumcised penis. It may, be unfounded, but it is the cultural norm here. As far as feeling better, I don't really think there is a good way to actually study that. There are more nerve endings, but the nerves aren't what actually "feels", that happens in your brain. As you grow up the pleasure centers of your brain attach to those nerves. If some of the nerves aren't there those areas of your brain attach to what is there. It's just like how blind people have other senses get better. Other areas of the brain that are being used take over the area that isn't being stimulated. You would have to study people that grew up circumcised and uncircumcised and compare how they actually felt while still accounting for person to person differences and culture and genetics. I'm sure the infants do feel pain from it, but I feel like it would be less traumatic even than having your whole body shoved through a little hole. But idk, maybe we should start making c-sections mandatory to save them from all that trauma. As far as cleaning. I know it's not that hard, but it is still cleaner. Stemming from that, there is a higher chance of STDs. http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pdf/prevention_research_malecircumcision.pdf As far as erectile disfunction, I really don't know. I never knew that was even a concern. I am interested in looking into it. I'm still going to have any son that I have circumcised, sorry. I'm glad I had it done when I was born. I have had no negative issues yet.

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True, but its the idea of raising the oppression bar.

Boys having circumcisions is mutiliation for these reasons.

As opposed to saying "girls aren't really genitally mutilated for having their labias ceremonially reduced, which is a procedure that can actually look better later in life when they grow into their bodies".

Granted, some female circumcision/mutilation practices are removal of the clitoris, which is kind of like scarring the penis up until it loses sensation for the rest of a guy's life. But rather than fight the issue head on, MRA and TRP and all of that want to focus on calling male circumcision mutilation.

Its about not trying to fight the crazy, but trying to say "well, if you believe this is true for women, then you shiould believe its true for men as well".

The same way we read thus:

A woman teacher has sex with a 16 year old, she's a rapist and deserves as much jailtime as male teachers.

Rather than admit that its possible it wasn't rape, that the student enjoyed it and will continue to enjoy sex with their underage peers after the teacher is hauled off, they want to perpetuate the feminist-grown idea that a male teacher having sex with a female student is rape, by comparing it to female teachers and male students.

And I completely agree with them. Two crimes should be given equal penalties, if all the factors in that crime are the same. A woman fucking a 14-15 year old over the course of a year about 40 times deserves to get prison equal to a man doing it with a 14-15 year old female just as often.

The question arises whether this is actually abuse or there is actually abuse going on. The feminist argument is that it always is, and must be de-facto rape because she can't consent.

The MRA/TRP argument is running along the same lines. That teen male can't consent either, because law says so and therefore their brain is magically incapable of it, despite the fact that they are wholly allowed to consent sexually to other teens all day every day.

MRA and TRP are going along these lines:

Rather than fight false narratives and try to have a reasonable conversation, we will up the victim status of males of all ages, because we need equality between the sexes, and any argument that fights the feminist narrative directly is going to reflect badly on us.

Circumcision for boys must be labeled genital mutilation because its the only way to get feminists to listen to how stupid they are.

A female teacher having sex with a teen must be seen as horrific child abuse because it fits into the feminist narrative that older people are inherently abusing a teen if they have sex with them, which is the basis of sending older males to long prison terms and calling them vile predators, etc. We must raise women up to this standard so they also receive the same treatment because to argue that the narrative isn't true is to make us look like we favor pedophilia.

Same thing happened to Judith Levine, Harris Mirkin, Allie Kilpatrick, and other people who've studied this concept. They were called in support of pedophilia even though that isn't anything the

It is going to be similar if you argue that FGM isn't always mutilation, but that both male and female circumcision shouldn't be legal because it takes choice away. By trying to be reasonable, you appear to favor raping infants (and girl ones at that, since that's what feminist victimhood is about). Better just to take the issue and then say "well men are victimized just as much too as infants, and women need to be punished on other issues just as harshly as men (fairly or not) are".

[–]jmg83 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure the infants do feel pain from it, but I feel like it would be less traumatic even than having your whole body shoved through a little hole.

Having your whole body shoved through a little hole is perfectly natural. Having bits of your dick cut off isn't.

I'm glad I had it done when I was born.

What if your hypothetical son one day says he wishes you hadn't done that to him? Leave him the way he's supposed to be, and the chances are, he won't even question it. If he has some overwhelming desire to get circumcised, then, great, he can do it himself. Have his prepuce removed for no reason before he can even talk, though, and that's it. He won't ever be able to fix it, ever. Does what you want matter more than what your son might want, especially given that it's his body? Once your son turns about 10, you'll never see his penis ever again. Do you really have the right to alter something that's effectively none of your business?

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Whatever... You guys take this circumcision shit on men's right so far. Literally getting circumcised has no effect, but leaving your kid uncircumcised can leave them more vulnerable to STIs and other bacterial diseases, but whatever prove your point.

I can kinda understand why you wouldn't want to pierce a girls ear, but once again no harm can come from it and literally every girl wants to have their ears pierced and if they grow up and decide they don't like it wait a few months and it heals it. Not like they give babies full gages. Some parents just do it for their little girl to look cute or whatever. If the kid grows up and is like ear piercing isn't for me it's a tiny little knick in their ear and all they gotta do is wait a bit and it's gone.

Once again though whatever you want to do with your kid is your thing.

[–]Kirril 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	And the message is finally getting out there...
Author	Lrellok
Upvotes	3343
Comments	448
Date	April 2, 2016 6:19 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4d2m7e/and_the_message_is_finally_getting_out_there/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/and-the-message-is-finally-getting-out-there.952693 https://theredarchive.com/post/952693

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