I saw this and cried.

Mr_Zarika · 2011-10-06T21:04:49+00:00

r/MensRights, you are something I was told couldn't exist. I'm not going to share my issues, but I've just spent the past 4 hours on...

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I love how being berated for bad grammar is just a normal thing on this site.

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[–]spiral-staircase 21 points22 points23 points 14 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

There's a popular theme on reddit that this is place is full of misogynists. When the truth is this subreddit has ideas feminists and most women won't understand. I tried to explain, like many other MRAs but it quickly grew tedious. I'm afraid there's a substantial amount of men and women out there that mock men's rights(r/againstmensrights) or completely feel offended.

As I understand it if you want to defend Men's Rights, expect to be characterised as a whining misogynist-rape-apologist-NiceGuy-bitter virgin etc. It's likely you'll get this sort of treatment often from female-oriented subreddits to put it more direct way. It might be that this subreddit goes against a lot of their base views, the fact that men are portrayed as impotent and inferior is a sign our society has consumed too much feminist poison.

Without further explanation, expect copious amounts of downvoting without minimal response or discussion.

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[+]ClearlyClaire 14 years ago [recovered] (18 children) | Copy Link

I for one am a woman, who frequents this subreddit and finds equal gender rights to be an important issue. I don't consider myself either a feminist or a men's right's activist, I consider myself to be an advocate of equal gender rights. The many misandrist feminists out there make my blood boil, and so do the misogynistic MRA's. I hate to break it to you, but many of them do exist and many frequent this subreddit.

I am sure that the majority of MRAs do not hold their radical opinions, but I too often see people on this subreddit making sweeping generalizations about women. The gist of most of them seems to be "All women are evil bitches who you can't trust, every woman who expresses interest in sleeping with you is probably just going to get you on a false rape accusation or make you pay child support." I seem to remember a post on this subreddit recently that explained why women shouldn't be allowed to vote.

These blanket statements do nothing to advance the cause of Men's Rights, in fact, they hurt it. The misogynists give Men's Rights a bad name and turn off women who might otherwise be supportive and understanding of the cause. I have a fairly thick skin and even I have sometimes left this subreddit in disgust.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way doubting that many of the stories on this subreddit are true. Many women are abusive and manipulative, but men aren't all angelic either. The problem that impedes equality lies not in gender, but in human nature. Given the opportunity, both men and women will commit atrocities. What we should be concentrating on is finding a way to eliminate the possibility of these atrocities, without the distraction of pointless bigotry. This goes for everyone who may be reading this, MRAs and feminists alike.

[–]del_preston 10 points11 points12 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]girlwriteswhat 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The gist of most of them seems to be "All women are evil bitches who you can't trust, every woman who expresses interest in sleeping with you is probably just going to get you on a false rape accusation or make you pay child support."

The problem isn't that all women do these things. The problem is that all women could do them and get away with them, and some women do.

Like you said, given the opportunity, both men and women (some of them) will commit atrocities. Men don't tend to get away with that if it's at all possible for society to hold them accountable. Women? They tend to get away with that if it's at all possible to hold men accountable.

A man poking holes in a condom was recently convicted of sexual assault. At the same time, a woman who retrieved semen from oral sex with a man who explicitly refused consent for procreative sex, and impregnated herself has just been awarded child support. A woman who cut off her husband's penis and threw it in the garbage disposal because he filed for divorce was cheered by an audience of women on a daytime talk show, and within a week a petition for mercy was organized by people advocating she not be held responsible for her actions. In other news, a man was put in the hospital by a mob of vengeful men for daring to slap a woman--who was forbidden from touching him--back on an Indian game show.

A lot of the men who speak in hyperbole and generalizations here have been well and truly fucked over. There is anger at the system and a deep distrust of women--not because women are bad, but because the system allows them to be bad if they choose. A little compassion might be nice from those who come here, in light of that.

[–]karmasutur3 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You bring up a point I've tried to bring up over and over again.

I don't think men or women are inherently good or evil. I don't think either.

I think it's valid to draw the conclusion, however, that both men and women, when given extraordinary amounts of power, the vast majority of those men and women will abuse it.

I also firmly believe that the balance of power (on the whole) rests with women in the United States, and therefore most (>50%) of power abusers happen to be women.

Not all women with power abuse it, nor do the men. But most do, imho. That's why the chorus sung here really struck a chord with me, because I believe we should be looking for equal legal rights, which , because of my faith that no sex is greater than the other, will bring things back into line, for the most part.

So have my upvotes, and I hope you stay here, cause although I get really angry here sometimes too (Sometimes at the behavior of women in our society, sometimes at the misogyny here) I think we need people like us here, singing the chorus of

"The sexism in the laws is evil"

rather than

"One sex is evil".

[–]ClearlyClaire 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]karmasutur3 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for your support. And you are welcome.

I feel like I have a strange perspective , because I have been allowed through fortunate life experience to have "come full circle" so to speak.

at 16-19 I was a typical american male, very white-knight-ish and with a head full of feminist leanings from our education system. At 20, I met a woman who can only be described as a genius level sociopathic demon, who systematically demolished me for the next 3 years. My mid-twenties were marked with severe misogyny as I began to heal, and then starting at about 27 I entered college for the first time, began truly investigating things, and converted to the perspective (that we've been discussing) that I now subscribe.

I feel like I can often relate to the men here that go off the handle. Some are actual sexists, or bigots, but most will move past the hatred they feel once the pain stops, if they are willing to. Issue is, it's really hard to come to that point if the legal system is holding your head underwater.

I'm now engaged to the most awesome woman, and looking back at the past two years or so, I can see that there has been situations where if she hadn't listened to me and learned, we would have sunk, and situations where if I had not listened to her and learned, we would have sunk.

I think the sexes , quite literally, need each other.

[–]spiral-staircase 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]deadlast -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Why wouldn't men be dissatisfied with women's privileged position in society at the expense of males?

Women are only "privileged" in certain narrow aspects of society. Certainly family courts should not be gender-biased in granting custody or similar decisions (though it ain't a bias if women tend to spend more time with the kids and are proportionately more often awarded custody - or if you want to say it is, you need to abandon the 'it doesn't matter that women are less successful in their careers, that reflects women's preferences/priorities' line of argument).

Definitely rape in prison should be treated seriously.

Of course courts should apply domestic violence laws even-handedly.

But I'd be more sympathetic to "mensrights" as an ideology if it were lesss...overly aggrieved? Negative? Focused on actual activism rather than bitching and moaning? I'd respect raising money for opening battered men's shelters, but I don't see it: I see mensrights groups attacking women's shelters for not admitting men. I don't see mensrights groups working on campaigns for diseases that disproportionately affect men; I see whining about funding for breast cancer. Nor do I see much actual activity from mensrights on preventing prison rape. But maybe the positive helpful people are like Batman, and swoop in silently from the dead of night. Obnoxious asses always get headlines.

(If you feel this alienated and oppressed when your gender has almost all the money and almost all the political power, I can't imagine how you'd deal with actual oppression.

More gracefully, probably. Members of traditionally privileged groups do tend to perceive loss of disproportionate privilege as an attack. Frankly, it has always seemed analogous to me to the way some evangelical Christians somehow imagine they're a persecuted religious group in a country that is 80% Christian. You also see that kind of attitude in race issues - many people seem to sincerely believe that the only racism left in America is directed against white people.

Of course, whiny "the feminists stole my lunch money!" stuff aside, r/mensrights is not nearly as bad as other places I've poked my head into, which are pretty batshit.)

[–]damn_it_so_much 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

But I'd be more sympathetic to "mensrights" as an ideology if it were lesss...overly aggrieved? Negative? Focused on actual activism rather than bitching and moaning? I'd respect raising money for opening battered men's shelters, but I don't see it

Weird, not the first time I've seen this exact point made. (Which makes me wonder if you and basstronomy and perhaps others are informed about mens rights by the same sources... or are even accounts belonging to the same person. But I digress) I address this in this admittedly tl;dr comment. This is where I do provide examples of efforts to either create domestic violence shelters where men are welcome or identify existing shelters.

Note also that your "overly aggrieved" comment is a bit insulting. Despite you being in favor of many things we in r/mensrights take very seriously, you trivialize what we stand for with this comment.

As for the rest of your post, well, you'll find all sorts of stuff in this subreddit designed to debunk untested feminist assumptions/axioms.

[–]deadlast 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

(Which makes me wonder if you and basstronomy and perhaps others are informed about mens rights by the same sources... or are even accounts belonging to the same person. But I digress)

Maybe because it's an issue with your movement- basically, it's an internet thing where people complain. Your rebuttal does not even include, so far as I can tell, "examples of efforts to either create domestic violence shelters." A click on your links and some cursory clicking around found only a hotline (which is helpful, definitely, though most anti-domestic abuse hotline offer services to both genders). Can you point out what you were referring to?

As for the rest of your post, well, you'll find all sorts of stuff in this subreddit designed to debunk untested feminist assumptions/axioms.

I don't really know what part of my post you're referring to; if you mean the bit about how mensrights comes across as whiny, that couldn't be called a "feminist assumption/axiom"- it's an interpretation. I think the only factual assertion I made is that men have almost all the money and almost all the power, which is, well, true. Unless there are a lot of crossdressers at the top I don't know about. I'd feel pretty sure that my gender were well-represented among the powerful if 84% of Congress, 70% of federal judges, and 97% of Fortune 500 CEOs, and 98% of self-made billionaires shared it.

[–]damn_it_so_much 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Maybe because it's an issue with your movement

It's an issue I've never seen brought up by a neutral party. In each case, it was brought up by someone who leans strongly feminist.

It's still a good point for any group to be doing more real-world things, though. I took the original suggestion to heart as well as this follow-up. As you note, it's quite easy for internet activities to stay on the internet, particularly on reddit.

Your rebuttal does not even include, so far as I can tell, "examples of efforts to either create domestic violence shelters.

Hmm, sorry, I guess ommitted a third link accidentally, see here. It's old though, and some of the information is out of date. And it mostly focuses on highlighting existing shelters that admit men. But there are some resources on that list that focus on helping men.

I think the only factual assertion I made is that men have almost all the money and almost all the power, which is, well, true.

But why is that true? Mainly because not too long ago our cultural values stated that men are the breadwinners and women are the child rearers. It's only relatively recently that women (1) have access to, and (2) are taking advantage of educational opportunities that men have had. And only now are more women are getting college degrees than men. The benchmarks you cite, money and power, are attained over time. Right now, do women have the same opportunities as men? I would argue yes. But it will take time to see the effects.

And in particular, the money statistic is misleading - how much are women earning compared to men in equivalent positions, not just the aggregate? How often are women able to make the same salary as men but do not negotiate for it? How many women are choosing to stay at home to take care of the kids? How much of what men make is spent on the entire household? There are nuances not taken into account with that statistic.

My main point is this: men holding more power than women now is an indication of how gender equality was in the last one or two generations. This is because so much happens in your formative years that decides your career. If you were kept from attending college, for instance, your options later in life would indeed be limited. But this is not the case now. And we will see changes in the next generation or two.

But most the institutional (governmental, law) changes I've seen made have favored women... and not men. Even a generation ago, when women were in many ways disadvantaged compared to men, women also enjoyed a number of privileges. The one r/mensrights seems to like bringing up a lot is the fact that the draft in the US only applies to men. Surely it should apply to both men and women if we as a society were truly gender egalitarian.

Given current trends, are women going to be more empowered while empowerment for men stagnates? Based on what I see, there are institutional safeguards in place to ensure women have the same opportunities as men. But there are far fewer in place to ensure men have the same opportunities as women. This imbalance contradicts the assertion that men are above women in society, I think.

The question to ask is, which is a better benchmark? The opportunities each gender has currently? Or the results attained over many decades? I think the former is a more accurate benchmark from the perspective of advocating for institutional change.

I'd be very interested in your thoughts on this.

[–]deadlast 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

It's an issue I've never seen brought up by a neutral party.

There's no such thing as a neutral party. There's people who have made up their mind, and there are people who are indifferent. (See, e.g., the vaunted "independents" in US politics-- aka, the least informed and least involved of all voters)

And in particular, the money statistic is misleading - how much are women earning compared to men in equivalent positions, not just the aggregate? How often are women able to make the same salary as men but do not negotiate for it? How many women are choosing to stay at home to take care of the kids? How much of what men make is spent on the entire household? There are nuances not taken into account with that statistic.

Given current trends, are women going to be more empowered while empowerment for men stagnates? Based on what I see, there are institutional safeguards in place to ensure women have the same opportunities as men. But there are far fewer in place to ensure men have the same opportunities as women.

"Institutional safeguards" don't compensate for the fact that well-educated women generally can't simultaneously have a successful career and a family. (Ironically, this is something that may have worsened, at least for one generation of women -- contrast Kagan and Sotomayor with Ginsburg and O'Conner; the latter two were able to have children during periods when they were shut out of the elite areas of their field. The former two only have their careers.) Maybe twenty years from now, women won't have to choose. Maybe we'll one day emulate the Scandinavian countries and not demand 80 hour work weeks for success, and provide general childcare and generous paid parental leave for both parents.

But there aren't any female partners at my firm with children, and partners get named after 8-10 years. Hell, the first female name partner ever at a national law firm in the United States was named last year.

Opportunities aren't equal, at all, because unlike my male coworkers of similar seniority - two of whom already have children- I have a choice to make.

Are institutional safeguards necessary to enable men to succeed? Take gender un-balanced schools. No one- male or female - wants to attend a female-tilted undergrad if they can help it. Caltech got along swimmingly for years. (Though they're actuallly much better than they used to be even pretty recently- I remember from my own college recruiting phase comparing Caltech unfavorably to MIT. Little did I know that MIT's main goal as an institution is to turn happy satisfied people into neurotic suicidal burnouts during the first year)

The one r/mensrights seems to like bringing up a lot is the fact that the draft in the US only applies to men. Surely it should apply to both men and women if we as a society were truly gender egalitarian.

Of course, to subject women to draft, the military would have to allow women to serve in combat roles...or so I would hope.

I don't know what to tell you, man, except that feminists fought hard for the ERA and were defeated by unigendered bathrooms. What seems weird to me about mensrights is that things like exemption the draft are interpreted as a "privilege" that's yet another benefit granted women because of society's misandry, or something, when it originates and reflects classic gender roles & assumptions that women are in need of protection, incapable of protecting others, and don't belong in combat (and a man does?). There's a law in [edit - fingered innocent Texas for this] North Carolina that makes “[a]ssault[ing] a female” a class A1 misdemeanor, if the attacker is “a male person at least 18 years of age." That puts "females" in a protected class right alongside 11 old children -- North Carolina law views women as more vulnerable and more in need of protection than a 12 year old boy.

[–]smile0my0friends 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]deadlast 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]damn_it_so_much 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

When I said neutral party, I meant this definition:

4. a group of persons with common purposes or opinions who support one side of a dispute, question, debate, etc.

By neutral I mean someone who is critical of mens rights and who also is not a feminist. I call you a feminist not like a swear word like many might in this subreddit, but because of specific things you say you believe which are core feminist beliefs. In particular, the existence of a Patriarchy in modern US society.

If I misjudge, feel free to say so. But based on what I read I think we mostly agree regardless of label.

"Institutional safeguards" don't compensate for the fact that well-educated women generally can't simultaneously have a successful career and a family. [...] Maybe twenty years from now, women won't have to choose. Maybe we'll one day emulate the Scandinavian countries and not demand 80 hour work weeks for success, and provide general childcare and generous paid parental leave for both parents.

Fair point. Enabling men to be caretakers for children will increase the freedom women have, as well as your suggestion to reduce work hours/obligations. I agree with you here. I think you suggest a set of far more fundamental changes than "leveling the playing field," while I (as well as many who discuss gender issues) was constrained within that mindset.

Opportunities aren't equal, at all, because unlike my male coworkers of similar seniority - two of whom already have children- I have a choice to make.

This is where I disagree. What if a man wants to say home and raise children? Or simply spend more time with the kids? There is overwhelming societal pressure telling a man to go and "provide for the family" just as there's pressure telling a woman to raise her kids. It's gender roles in general that's the culprit here (as well as the issue of work demands that you've already identified).

But that said, let me counter you with my own anecdotal evidence. At my last job, I knew two different women who had multiple children while maintaining a full career as high level Engineers. They were given maternity leave (I agree that it should be longer) but they also both seemed happy to (1) work through their pregnancies and (2) return to work after their leave. Women absolutely have the opportunity to both raise their kids and pursue a fulfilling career.

No one- male or female - wants to attend a female-tilted undergrad if they can help it.

I'm sorry? Tell the many women at female-only schools they don't want to be there, because their presence alone indicates something otherwise. Not to mention a number of schools that admit both genders but happen to have more women than men.

As far as engineering schools go, congrats on getting into MIT! I graduated from a school known to the east coast as the backup school to MIT: RPI. :P And yes, the student ratio is a big deal, as any student won't hesitate to tell you. (We're a self deprecating bunch.) It's 3:1 now at the freshman level, so it is getting better. But in many of the hard sciences women are still woefully outnumbered. In my department, Math, the ratio was probably closer to 10:1 (despite knowing some really brilliant women in that program and brilliant women mathematicians in general).

Why is this the case? Believe me, RPI wants women to attend there! And I think the reason is that either (1) not enough women have the aptitude in math and science to get accepted and/or succeed, or (2) not enough women want to be engineers and scientists. This is not a problem of opportunity, but rather a problem of being raised with restrictive gender roles.

What seems weird to me about mensrights is that things like exemption the draft are interpreted as a "privilege" that's yet another benefit granted women because of society's misandry, or something, when it originates and reflects classic gender roles & assumptions that women are in need of protection, incapable of protecting others, and don't belong in combat (and a man does?).

There are both costs and benefits to restrictive gender roles. Another such duality was touched upon earlier in my comment: raising children in the face of having to work a job. Staying home and raising the kids has both costs and benefits. Spending significant time away from home but focusing on one's career also has both costs and benefits.

There's a law in [edit - fingered innocent Texas for this] North Carolina that makes “[a]ssault[ing] a female” a class A1 misdemeanor, if the attacker is “a male person at least 18 years of age." That puts "females" in a protected class right alongside 11 old children -- North Carolina law views women as more vulnerable and more in need of protection than a 12 year old boy.

Another excellent point, and another example of gender roles providing both costs and benefits to the members of that gender. Eliminating rigid gender roles will go far in helping these kinds of attitudes that pervade society's thinking and laws.

I would argue, however, that saying things like "women don't have as much opportunity as men" also facilitates these kinds of gender-biased laws. Even though this sentiment might seem as if they call for empowering women, this sort of "victim mentality" plays right into the women-should-be-coddled gender stereotype.

I feel like I should flesh out this last paragraph more, as it doesn't really feel quite right, but I really need to go. Thanks for the debate, you raise a number of awesome arguments. If you respond eventually, I will respond likewise.

[+]Maschalismos -10 points-9 points-8 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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I just want to say, I totally understand this. I understand why some men have a hard time trusting women, so I try and not let it hurt my feelings. You know, until I went off to college and met a whole slew of very nice, very... hmm how do I put it?...non controlling? maybe non overbearing? anyway, I met some normal men and it blew my mind. Up until that point every male influence in my life (even my younger brother lol) talked down to me and told me what to do. So it also took me a while to believe that not every man was trying to be my father :) I think I still struggle with that today, but I'm really trying hard to understand people's motivations as opposed to gender's motivations. If that makes any sense. Actually, coming here, and seeing the occasional man who is angry at women strangely enough helps me. It lets me see that we're all the same, and we all make mistakes.

[–]Maschalismos 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Mr_Zarika[S] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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I would agree that it is extremely refreshing to finally see something that caters to the issues of men. However, you must be careful in what you absorb from here; many of the topics posted seem to reflect the opinions of young men (16-) which only serve to make the movement look like an outlet for enraged youth. So far, r/masculism is the best I've seen so far which manages to provide a level-headed perspective on men's issues without the immature buzzwords (ex: feminazi) and "she-said" comment quotes from the various feminist related subreddits around here. It is unfortunate however that the term masculism has been annotated to mean "anti-feminism". What's a boy to do?

P.S. I really appreciate the spirit of this subreddit and what it is trying to accomplish... I just think it could be executed much more efficiently.

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[–]Amunium 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Well, you're a bit of a condescending prick for someone whose every sentence is not only completely wrong but utterly devoid of any reasoning, aren't you? Yes, two can play that game, but I'll stop here and let you take that rhetorical low ground on your own.

It says very clearly 'when YOU pass a judgement', YOU... not a judge.

Actually, it was obviously a general quote, in which case the "you" doesn't mean the person spoken to, but rather as a synonym to "one", meaning any hypothetical person. See definition 2 here.

With this in mind, a judge passing judgment would be just as much the target of the quote as anyone else passing judgment. There is no qualifier to which kind of judgment meant, and a judge judging a criminal is passing judgment.

A person making a judgment about another person, place, thing, event... You still with me?

Completely, yes. And this is exactly what a judge does. My entire point, if it isn't yet obvious, was that the quote isn't very good as it is obviously wrong. Passing judgment on others isn't necessarily a bad thing, and it doesn't have to say anything about the person passing judgment, apart from the fact that he passed judgment; and it certainly doesn't prevent the judgment from possibly being a sound conclusion.

If, for instance, I conclude that a person is a troll based on their posting history, I could be right or I could be wrong, but it doesn't say anything about me, apart from the fact that I'm willing and able to come to that conclusion, and it doesn't mean I can't be right, as the quote suggests when it says "you're not defining them" as opposed to "you're also defining yourself".

If you do get it, take your newfound understanding and look again at what you replied with..

Fine. My question still makes perfect sense. If judging others defines only yourself and not the person being judged, then judges are useless, as anything they judge is by definition wrong, and instead applies to themselves, meaning they should go to jail.

Yes, learning is fun. Teaching, however, can be a bit frustrating.

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Many of the MRAs I interact with are well aware of the problems you've identified. We primarily view the MRM as a temporary social movement within the larger human rights framework which has the goal of raising awareness for the serious ways in which men are mistreated in our society because think that this is an area that is largely ignored or misunderstood.

We 'identify' as MRAs the same way someone would identify as a 'children's rights activist' because they work for UNICEF or something. It's something that you do, not something that you are. That's actually one of the ways we distinguish ourselves from feminism. We don't have masculinist theory, and we don't have a masculinist identity, we don't want to exclude women from our discussions, we don't want to separate ourselves from the broader human rights movement.

Seriously dude, all of this stuff is talked about at r/MensRights quite frequently. There are arguments about it and there are certainly a lot of idiots out there who would disagree with you and I, but you seem to think most MRAs would consider you some kind of radical or something. That's just not the case.

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Title	I saw this and cried.
Author	Mr_Zarika
Upvotes	202
Comments	145
Date	October 6, 2011 9:04 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/l3etn/i_saw_this_and_cried/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-saw-this-and-cried.1033543 https://theredarchive.com/post/1033543

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