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[–]Steakman1All Men Have Piss Bags 29 points30 points31 points 3 years ago* (33 children) | Copy Link
The theory only applies if you did or were willing to have sex with a guy quicker in your past. So for example you say you would’ve been willing to have sex a month into your relationship. But with a guy from your past, you were willing to hook up after the first date, or were willing to have sex before being in a relationship. The whole idea of af/bb is that you would be settling for the guy you’re with when in reality you would prefer someone else. And as a result, you’re imposing different standards and/or restrictions that wouldn’t apply to a guy you truly desire. And for the guy you’re settling with, he has to do more than the guy you truly desire to get the things he wants. And there’s a chance that there’s some things he won’t ever get to experience with you that the guy you truly desire would be able to.
P.s. I don’t really subscribe to af/bb except for maybe some extreme scenarios. But this is my understanding of it.
[–]InfamousBake1859 -4 points-3 points-2 points 3 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link
Or you learned from your mistakes and no longer want to sleep around. Which is totally fine too. Men don’t respect women who sleep around. So maybe she likes a man so much, she wants to stay with him as his wife. If she sleeps with him on the first date, perhaps that will affect his preceptiom of her and maybe she has changed.
[–]OrdinaryFarmerBurgundy Pill Man 9 points10 points11 points 3 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link
It matters what she did with other guys, if she sleeps with him on the first date but didnt with anyone else, the guy would feel special and good.
[–]InfamousBake1859 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link
You can change. It doesn’t mean anything.
Men change too. So do women. Doesn’t mean we now see you as an ATM
[–]OrdinaryFarmerBurgundy Pill Man 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link
So being inconsistent. That's not good for a long lasting relationship.
Also why did this kind change occur? Often times it is due to being satiated, jaded, or losing access.
For example: Woman sleeps around with ton of guys, got bored/satiated, now she wants to settle down asexually.
Woman is now 35 and can't get with as hot guys, now she wants to settle down with a beta.
[–]InfamousBake1859 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link
Is it inconsisten or change/growth?
Does that mean men who sleep around cannot change and settle down with one woman and be a good husband/father?
Or does your statement/accusation only apply to women?
Maybe she was in college and having fun bc she left a really restrictive household. Then later decided it is time to settle down with a husband and have kids. Maybe it is when she’s 22, 25, 30, 35… who knows. But what’s so wrong with that? Many things can cause a change. Maybe she found out having casual sex is not fulfilling. Is that a bad thing?
Define settling for a beta. What does that mean?
So does the alpha chad never settle down? Did he settle down with a betaF then? I’m confused.
[–]dysonRing 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link
I know of a girl that was wild in HS/college and settled down for beta, thing is she did this in her early early 20s almost immediately after college, so it was not like she was offering damaged goods.
[–]InfamousBake1859 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
What is a beta. Literally…. A family guy?
What is damaged goods? Are you saying women are goods?
Also, you failed to address when men do this. What about men who sleep around in college/frags and then settle down after college?
[–]dysonRing 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
Yes she was looking for a family man, she met him like 5 years later but she was looking at 22. Which is not that bad. Hell I wanted to.
Men fucking women (without dumpster diving) is an accomplishment so I think they are different.
[–]InfamousBake1859 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
Why is it an accomplishment?
Why is it not an accomplishment if women do it?
[–]OrdinaryFarmerBurgundy Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Is it inconsistent
Yes, it is not having values from the start. Which of course not everyone does, doesn't mean they can't change, I would just prefer someone who has had the values from the start and stuck to them.
It's not the same, a man doesn't get sex easily (non transactional), he has to work for it, succeed in some way, hence why it is an accomplishment. While women have easy 24/7 access, men have to go out and seek it. Which is a barrier to entry if nothing else.
However, a low n-count woman is probably gonna see a man who sleeps around as a player and won't take him as an option, if she has those values. So I think the redpill advice of banging as many women as possible then settling with a low n woman is retarded.
having fun bc she left a really restrictive household
Well having kids and being married is also restrictive. So I assume she would want to go fuck around again and miss the freedom. Hence a terrible bet for a serious partner.
It means she is settling for a man she is not attracted to, possibly even repulsed by physically, in order to get a relationship stability and financial stability. If a Chad showed up and promised her stability she would jump to him in a heartbeat and ditch the beta.
The term beta doesn't apply to women. A woman getting a Chad is a win. You're comparing apples to oranges by thinking men and women are the exact same.
[–]InfamousBake1859 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Who is to say someone who has conservative values don’t want to explore later? I had a super conservative friend. She got married to some idiot. Once they divorced, she just let loose and probably slept with like 5 guys in half a year.
So if men had easier access to sex (marriage), they no longer have to work for it?
Men may have harder time getting sex but women have a harder time finding the right guys to have sex with as well.
I do agree that having a high count for a man is a negative attribute for women with low counts. That’s kinda my point.
There is nothing to suggest that when she is ready to start a family and stop casual sex that she would marry someone she’s not attracted to it replused by. Not sure where you got that from. (Unless she married someone super rich and old enough to be her grandfather)
What do you call the shower conservative girl that a Chad settled down for? I know a guy in my grad school who whored around so much. He later married some Christian conservative girl. I was like wtf? So what is she then if not beta?
[–]ChibsFilipTelforddMen should not date virgins 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Incorrect assumption of satiety, a woman sexual enough to sleep around isn't going to be "satisfied" at some point
[–]OrdinaryFarmerBurgundy Pill Man 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Yes she absolutely can be. And those that aren't, will not have the attraction or desire for a beta they decide to settle for. Plus the variety would be gone.
[–]ChibsFilipTelforddMen should not date virgins 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
No, tbats not how sexuality works lmao
But yes, a woman could choose a man to settle down with she's not attracted to, for other reasons such as age or stability... that just doesn't mean that she's sated. She's not. She still wants hot guy D. She's just frustrated now too
[–]OrdinaryFarmerBurgundy Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
How does it not work?
Yes we agree on that scenario happening potentially.
[–]ChibsFilipTelforddMen should not date virgins 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
A hypersexual woman doesn't just "get tired" of sex lol
[–]DaoMark 13 points14 points15 points 3 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
I am not a TRP guy, but I think you may be misunderstanding the argument somewhat.
I recently read the alpha fucks/beta bucks theory. Apparently if the woman is setting rules it means that she's not attracted to the guy.
It is not just that she is setting rules, it is that she is setting rules and barriers for guy1 that she had not set for guy2; and, if these lack of rules and barriers for guy2 resulted in guy2 getting laid without investing nearly as much as guy1, then guy1 investment in courting ( the dates, gifts, time, attention, etc... ) being exploited due to ignorance.
I think the go to analogy to explain why guy1 might feel wronged is like this:
Let us say you have a company that hired two people, both Sally and John - Sally is working 80 hours a week and is paid 50k, John is working 10 hours a week and is paid 200k.
Sally and John both have the same occupation, Sally however is contributing far more to the company despite being paid far less, Sally is content with this payment until she finds out that John is doing less work for the same job, and is given more reward - Sally's ignorance was exploited and she was a sucker.
Now, approaching dating in this way is very systematic and doesn't account for elements like love, nerves, and other emotions, but I do understand the reasoning
So as guy you should never stick around if a woman makes you wait, she's still dreaming about the alpha she can't have.
Its not that you are dreaming about the chad you can't have, its that you aren't giving him the same deal that you gave that chad; a lot of these men do not want to sit and invest time, money, and emotions into getting something that was given away to a man who put in far less effort.
The AF/BB theory only really applies to situations where the girl was fucking other guys in a way shorter time frame, especially guys who didn't do all the things that he is doing for you.
My boyfriend waited almost half a year. Does this make him a beta?
Waiting 6 months for any girl who isn't a virgin or has a low n count is actually a little wild in general, especially if she was fucking random dudes after only like two weeks of knowing them, or had an ONS with some bum at a bar.
Women don't owe men anything, but men don't owe women all that courting ether, so there is that I guess.
Does it make him beta? Idk, I try and stay away from those terms even tho its called AF/BB. What I will say is it does mean his time was finessed, but again, relationships aren't that simple and I don't really like that sort of thinking.
If I had to answer, your bf is a beta within this AF/BB model, but that doesn't mean he is actually a beta as a person, that is just the role he fits in this "theory" lmao
Honestly the AF/BB theory, while it does speak to certain situations, it doesn't really account for a lot of variables so I wouldn't put too much stock in it.
For example, you could've been friends with a guy for 5 years, and had sex with him on the first date. Then there is some new guy you never met but you made him wait 5 dates.
Who "waited" longer? Who "invested" more in the relationship?
I'd say the friend, but often times, the new guy who waited 5 dates won't consider that the person you slept with on the first date, is the guy you knew for 5 years.
It is all just oversimplistic, honestly.
[–]sparklyyblueberryy -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Why does it make him a beta?
[–]DaoMark 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Beta within the AF/BB dynamic, I said I don't think it makes him beta as a person - it is just the role he'd fit if I had to force him into one.
Reading through the comments, OP was a virgin anyway, so this whole theory thing doesn't even apply to her situation.
[–]_revelationary -3 points-2 points-1 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
What do you mean “his time was finessed?”
[–]warramite 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Thats what happens when you're getting scammed, you pay more than what other people did. Its not rocket science, he's getting finessed. Simple as.
[–]_revelationary -3 points-2 points-1 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I was asking the original commenter for what his meaning was in this situation. I’m aware of the meaning of the word.
[–]smallstarseekerCritical thinker 25 points26 points27 points 3 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link
If you wanted to fuck him... you'd fuck him.
[–]SwaySh0t 20 points21 points22 points 3 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
Basically this. If she’s see’s u as high value enough she wont wait to sleep with you in fear that another women will scoop u up. If she has u waiting 6 months she sees you as a safe option since there’s no competition anxiety within the dynamic.
[–]smallstarseekerCritical thinker 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Doesn't have anything to do with value.
When women are horny they want to fuck. Super simple, just like men except we get horny easier.
If she is in a relationship with a guy and doesn't have sex with him.
She could be a virgin which feels anxiety.
If she has a high N then she is simply not horny.
[–]SwaySh0t 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Who do women fuck when they get horny? Not just anybody. Guy has to have value or status, it doesn’t have to to real value or status, it can be perceived.
[–]SwaySh0t 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Who do women fuck when they get horny? Not just anybody. Guy has to have value or status, it doesn’t have to be real value or status, it can be perceived.
[–]smallstarseekerCritical thinker 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Woman is going to fuck a broke ass bass player which has no potential in his life if he is fun and makes her horny.
A smart woman will do it secretly so her social standing doesn't take a hit. And then she will marry a high value manager which doesn't make her pussy go moist.
[–]SwaySh0t 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
She’s fucking the bass players because he has high social status within that venue. All eyes/attention are on him, he leads the band, other women are attracted to him, other people came to see him, he’s the local celebrity. It all comes back to status or the perception of status
[–]januaryphilosopherWoman/student/UK/radfem/makes first move/healthy BMI/bi/taken 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
If she sees you as worth anything, she'll see you as actually into her and not likely to leave her just for a fuck.
[–]smallstarseekerCritical thinker 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You are ignoring the whole "I can change him" thing.
[–]ConsciousInternal287Purple Pill Woman 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This. Men who leave after getting sex are not high value.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Well I told him at the start that he wanted to sleep around I wouldn't despise him, I still would've respected him for everything he accomplished, I would've enjoyed his company and hearing about his escapades but I couldn't do it as his girlfriend, only as a friend. I do see him as a high value man, that would not have change regardless of his choices in sex partners but if he chose cheated on me/dumped me for more available sex with another woman I would not have considered him a high value partner and would not have looked back.
[–]C4yourshelf 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
What has he accomplished?
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Won national robotic competitions, generally knows more than his teachers when it comes to eletronics, coding, robotics, had job offers banging at his door begore he was of age, turned offers from big companies to start his own while getting his engineering degree, managing his company and making good money after just one and a half year,.... I think I could just go on and on... but thing is that well, he's doing all of that while caring for the people around him, and it's just amazing considering we were childhood friends and back then we were both shy and awkward kids.
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is an absurd take
[–]JonMyMon -4 points-3 points-2 points 3 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
This is so dumb. Sometimes women withhold sex because they have strong feelings for you, and they’re worried you’ll leave as soon as you get sex.
[–]smallstarseekerCritical thinker 17 points18 points19 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Horny woman does not withhold sex for long.
[–]daddysgotanew 14 points15 points16 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
All of women’s rationality goes completely out the window when they’re actually physically attracted to you/ you are her perfect type. Trust me I’ve been there. Women act like horny teenagers too.
Yup. It's actually super simple, when horny women behave just like guys.
The only complicated part is seeing through all smoke and deceptions to figure out what makes them horny.
[–]Deadinthehead 9 points10 points11 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Make him wait because I like him so much but don't want to look like a slut, but also have ons which makes me a "slut". Unless the girl has never done anything casual, the above is how silly that sounds.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I was never attracted to any other boy. I get quite uncomfortable if a boy touches me unless it's to hand me something.
[–]ChibsFilipTelforddMen should not date virgins 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Then you're consistent and this idea doesn't apply to you.
I still would never date you, because I want a highly sexual woman who's not afraid of men or sex. But the RPs on this site aren't scared of being taken of advantage of by girls like you.
[–]JonMyMon -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It’s not because they don’t want to look like a slut, I never said that, I said it’s because they’re afraid that guys will peace out after they get sex, and waiting increases the chances that the guy actually likes them and isn’t just interested solely for sex.
[–]Deadinthehead 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I know you didn't, I'm saying that's how that sounds. It only applies if she's been casual before though.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
You know, the moment I was sure was I asked myself "If he was to leave the day after would you still be fine?". At a certain point the answer became yes. Because he had showed me so much of himself and facet of myself I didn't know and he had already given me a wonderful relationship. I thought "just remember to thank him". And yeah after that I was quite sure. I actually told him "You know I'm ready just don't feel responsible, this doesn't mean you have to marry me nor that you have to stick around if you grow tired of this relationship"
[–]ChibsFilipTelforddMen should not date virgins 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
this doesn't mean you have to marry me nor that you have to stick around if you grow tired of this relationship"
That's a very healthy perspective, actually.. in my past relationship, I had some issues that impacted my mental state for about a week. Not only was I not very fun to be around but I also didn't want to have sex, even though we had sex like every day multiple times when we saw each other. I told her during it that I wouldn't be upset if she left and I'd understand, and that if this mental stuff persisted past the last thing we'd scheduled I'd actually break up with her because it wouldn't be fair to her. Thankfully, it didn't and I didn't. Even better, her staying and getting through it with me made me fall in love with her beyond what had occurred prior
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
That's why I don't think it's wrong to wait for marriage before sex. I don't think it's necessary either. I believe that if you are commited and attracted to one person enough that you want to spend the rest of your life with them and went through struggles together before marriage... well you can work together to solve any problem you have regarding your sex lives (those at r/deadbedroom are gonna hate me)
[–]ChibsFilipTelforddMen should not date virgins 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I think it's wrong to wait for marriage for sex. Since you have a low sociosexuality and are self admittedly scared of men and intimacy, you're exactly who I'm trying to avoid and filter out when I'm dating.
This is America so there's really no wrong choices, we have individual freedoms. If you want to fuck 10,000 guys over your life or 0 guys over your life, more power to you. But to ME, if you don't have sex before marriage you're SETTING YOURSELF UP for a dead bedroom by not testing sexual compatibility.
You say that
believe that if you are commited and attracted to one person enough that you want to spend the rest of your life with them and went through struggles together before marriage... well you can work together to solve any problem you have regarding your sex
And you'd be wrong.
I've had multiple instances myself that prove that wrong, and know many others who are genuinely in love and highly committed but have trash sex lives because of fundamental incompatibilities. It can be what you like in bed, frequency, simple lack of skill, bodies that don't fit together, bodies that the other doesn't prefer (i.e. I tried really hard to like one of my exgfs huge boobs but I'm just not that guy; some girls can't deal with really big Ds, many girls can't deal with really small Ds, etc).
If you wait till marriage you're SIGNING A CONTRACT. Without ever knowing.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think "scared of men" is a little bit overboard. Never had any issues talking, laughing or jesting with men. I also don't think I'm scared of intimacy. I don't want intimacy from any person other than my boyfriend but actively seek out and engage in intimacy with him. I had to look up "low in sociosexuality". That's the perfect word to describe me. Anything that is even remotely sexual is reserved for my boyfriend. I never put make up on when I'm not with my boyfriend. I don't dress scantily if I'm not going out with my boyfriend. I'm not trying to be flirty with anyone else other than him. In short, I don't want any boy to look at me in that way other than my boyfriend. But when I'm with him I'm sluttiest girl I can be. I have yet to see any girl showing more skin. Sex is always quite violent and degrading. There have been multiple instances where I've been whipped till I bleeded. My boyfriend told me he was not sure how much he would have to pay a prostitute to do all the things he does to me. Most would not agree at any price. My boyfriend also likes to be whipped, something I found unconceivable. I felt weird and wrong to hurt him. But the face he makes afterwards is so satisfied that I slowly grew to like it. I found the idea of blowjobs disgusting but I really like the way he looks at me when I do one. I'm the one asking to do it now. I still could not imagine doing any of it with someone else.
Maybe I don't like everything he does but I like making him happy. Same goes for him. If having more or less frequent sex made him happier I'd gladly do it. I didn't have any skill, but I'm attracted enough to learn and my boyfriend is attracted to wait till I'll have learnt. There are so many different positions that I think we can find one where our bodies fit together. I don't think we were made for each other but we can grow for each other.
[–]ChibsFilipTelforddMen should not date virgins 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes and many men perceive that as not being attracted. So it will often lead to the man leaving anyways. It's a mistake on a girl's part. If a man's gonna leave when he has sex it doesn't matter how long or short he has to wait.
It's reasonable to be scared, but it's not reasonable to actually think that's effective
[–]ruboyuri -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
She did
[–]Psych_FI -3 points-2 points-1 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Sometimes you desperately want to but you also want to save yourself rushing into something with someone. If you end up dating there’ll be plenty of sex.
[–]hari_hbpBlue Pill Man 13 points14 points15 points 3 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
Personally, I take "AFBB" as a warning. It simply means there are guys out there (hotter/more attractive than me) that my date/girlfriend/wife would take one look and go "I'm fucking him tonight". At the same time, she needs time to get comfortable with me and thus, would wait to have sex with me.
That's a choice the woman makes and I can't force her do it another way. Ofcourse, I can always leave if I'm not satisfied with it. No harm there.
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Women might not think about how this hurts a man or how he might feel jealous, but it genuinely doesn’t have to do with attractiveness imo. I have never done it and I don’t know if it is very moral, but I’ve heard other people reasoning in a way which I can agree with or understand. Women risk feeling some sort of post sex emptiness, and this is more Common after casual sex. But. If a woman has feelings for a guy it would probably be much more soul and heart crushing if he ended up only wanting her for sex. This is a big fear for women. Don’t being loveable. To those casual men she didn’t care about that because she knew what she was getting into.
Reason for all this is that we women don’t see ”getting sex” or casual sex is an achievement. I guess we project that onto men. If a man wanted to wait to have sex with me but jumped into bed directly with others I would for example not think that I am less attractive, I would be so happy. I would see it as him caring about my feelings and me as a person and wanting to know me first.
[–]hari_hbpBlue Pill Man 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Women might not think about how this hurts a man or how he might feel jealous, but it genuinely doesn’t have to do with attractiveness imo
Even if it's is due to attractiveness, it makes sense. Hotter guy + Horny woman -----> sex Hot enough guy + woman -------> need to spend time with him -----> horny woman due to safety, comfort and emotional connection ------> sex
I just don't bother with it by thinking that with the latter guy, she wants to have sex ( and do a lot of other things) potentially for the rest of her life ----> win win.
Women risk feeling some sort of post sex emptiness, and this is more Common after casual sex. But. If a woman has feelings for a guy it would probably be much more soul and heart crushing if he ended up only wanting her for sex. This is a big fear for women. Don’t being loveable. To those casual men she didn’t care about that because she knew what she was getting into
I understand why women do it and there's nothing wrong with. I don't like it but I see why that's necessary to prevent hurt.
I guess we project that onto men. If a man wanted to wait to have sex with me but jumped into bed directly with others I would for example not think that I am less attractive, I would be so happy.
Ooh, that's interesting. It's like the exact opposite for men though. Damn. I guess that's just the product of women's fear of being used for sex and men's fear of being settled for.
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
It doesn’t work like that to me. You can be turned on by someone without having sex with them if your frontal lobe is functioning properly. So it doesn’t mean the man is less attractive.
Well yes, men in LTR might be called betas here but they probably have the most sex… if a woman will have sex with a man for the rest of her life she clearly doesn’t find him unattractive.
I genuinely think that this is the main reason. Not at all attractiveness. When me and my ex broke up (it was after a very long time, not due to proper dumping but life circumstances, both didn’t really want it) I didn’t want to have sex with anyone but having sex with him would have hurt the most for me and something I didn’t want. That was not because I found him less attractive, but because I would feel hurt.
Yep! It’s the same when men say women have it so nice because of the access to sex especially casual sex. Most of us see it as not a good thing. I wish less people would want to have sex with me. But I think this is why a lot of women don’t see the issue, we just don’t think that it can be a bad thing. Different women deal with it differently of course, I think I am very very sensitive towards feeling not used. But I’m very conscientious.
[–]hari_hbpBlue Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Ofcourse, you have to be turned on by someone. My point is just that with some guys, women get easily turned on. With other guys, spending time with him and becoming more comfortable turns her on and that's a longer process. Nothing wrong with and it makes perfect sense to me. However, the men in the "other guys" group feel jealous (rightfully) and lash out with theories like AFBB. It doesn't really help when women in this very thread say " if she is being used for sex, might as well be a hot guy". Even though they are being honest, they are further fueling the fire.
That's what I believe in as well.
I genuinely think that this is the main reason. Not at all attractiveness.
Okay. Since you're a woman, you'd have a perspective that I, as a man, can never fully understand. That's cool.
When me and my ex broke up (it was after a very long time, not due to proper dumping but life circumstances, both didn’t really want it) I didn’t want to have sex with anyone but having sex with him would have hurt the most for me and something I didn’t want. That was not because I found him less attractive, but because I would feel hurt.
Understandable.
Yep! It’s the same when men say women have it so nice because of the access to sex especially casual sex
I would say that's a general advantage that every woman has. But only some of you make use of it.
But I think this is why a lot of women don’t see the issue, we just don’t think that it can be a bad thing. Different women deal with it differently of course, I think I am very very sensitive towards feeling not used. But I’m very conscientious.
Again, a woman doing something to protect herself from hurt (without causing any reasonable hurt to her date) is perfectly fine in any normal person's books.
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I mean, yes and no? I think redpillers here overestimate the difference. They truly see these Chads as ultra attractive and think women fawn over them, whereas they see themselves as utterly undesireable. Truly, I think that’s not such a big difference as they make it out. As mentioned, I really really did not want to sleep with my ex after we broke up. I would have made him wait. But it has not to do with attractiveness.
One issue I see with this is entitlement. I understand some degree of jealousy but there will always be smarter, hotter and so on people and wanting something just because other have it when they would be perfectly happy else is bad character. Especially since it is quite rare what they describe and would maybe happen to pro athletes or something.
Yes and I don’t see why people can’t be happy in a loving relationship with a wife.
Yes but men on TRP take it very personally and make it sound like they are somehow naturally unworthy of sex and that’s why she waits.
[–]hari_hbpBlue Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Could you quote which of my statements you are replying to? That would make it easier for me to understand your points.
I think redpillers here overestimate the difference. They truly see these Chads as ultra attractive and think women fawn over them, whereas they see themselves as utterly undesireable
Not true. Not "undesirable" but more like, "I'm attractive and Chad is way more attractive". I personally don't have to estimate (and is probably true for many men) about how women treat really hot guys (that's a gender neutral thing).
As mentioned, I really really did not want to sleep with my ex after we broke up. I would have made him wait. But it has not to do with attractiveness.
I understand your reasoning. I'm just pointing out that other people may not see it that way and there are other reasonings as well (I'm preparing a mindset to accomodate all the reasonings)
there will always be smarter, hotter and so on people and wanting something just because other have it when they would be perfectly happy else is bad character.
Sure, there's entitlement present but that's not the only reason. Jealousy is one and it's natural (Men have to get over that though for his own mental health).
Especially since it is quite rare what they describe and would maybe happen to pro athletes or something.
What are you exactly saying "that will happen to pro-athletes"?
I don't think anybody is disputing that.
Men on trp focus on one possible reason and built their narrative around it. They don't think they are naturally unworthy, just that the woman isn't as attracted to him as one of her casual partners. They advice to move on to a different woman who, according to them, is attracted to them. I think that's the best for both the woman and the man (who holds that view) - no harm no foul.
[–]Psych_FI -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
I don’t see it that way.
For me it’s simply I don’t want sex to influence my dating when it comes to decision making. If I’m waiting to feel comfortable with this person it simply means determining what he’s capable off and protecting my feelings. I want to know if he respects me and sees me as someone he enjoys outside of sex.
That’s what I’m trying to determine while getting to know him. Bad sex can make you throw away a decent partner and good sex can make you stay with a crappy partner. Sex often isn’t as good for women and I’d rather have sex feeling good about everything. It has very little to do with attraction how long I wait.
[–]hari_hbpBlue Pill Man 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
For me it’s simply I don’t want sex to influence my dating when it comes to decision making.
I've heard that reasoning here before and that's perfectly fine.
If I’m waiting to feel comfortable with this person it simply means determining what he’s capable off and protecting my feelings. I want to know if he respects me and sees me as someone he enjoys outside of sex.
That's cool.
Bad sex can make you throw away a decent partner and good sex can make you stay with a crappy partner.
The second statement is true. But if it's bad sex, then that's not really a decent partner though. I understand what you're trying to say though.
Sex often isn’t as good for women
You sure about that?
It has very little to do with attraction how long I wait.
You know that's the truth because it's from your perspective. This may not seem like it from the man's perspective (and that's okay). To (a majority) of men, longer he waits, he's going to be more disturbed.
However, I admit that the women's way of dealing with hurt makes sense and even though men dont like it as much, they'll have to go through with it (for her sake and especially since there's no hurt involved).
[–]Psych_FI 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
My view on bad sex is that in some instances in can be resolved and in others it’s a more pervasive issue. Just because we haven’t had sex doesn’t mean we haven’t kissed prior so to me if the sex is bad but kissing is great I’m open to working through that (performance anxiety etc.).
Sex can be awful for women if the guy isn’t as invested, and for a number of other reasons. Research shows this so as a woman it makes no sense to me rushing sex.
I’m glad you understand. I would never string along a guy that I’m not attracted too and as you said it makes sense. I enjoy sex ultimately and for me I don’t have a hard and fast rule as every situation is different.
Some guys are complete strangers day one vs others who I’ve spent time like couple months or years getting to know through work/school/activity and other guys I’ll meet at 18 vs 28.
I expect a guy to feel comfortable walking away if he’s unhappy!
[–]hari_hbpBlue Pill Man 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Agreed on that - you can attempt to work through "bad sex" if he's awesome otherwise.
it makes no sense to me rushing sex.
That's okay and in the same way, to some men, it doesn't make sense that with one guy, women are okay with rushing to sex while with others, she isn't. They don't look deeper into the reasons and assume there's only one - she isn't that attracted to the latter guys - and leave the woman.
I don't see an issue with it as long as there's no shaming involved and he respectfully leaves her so she can find somebody better suited for her.
I would never string along a guy that I’m not attracted too and as you said it makes sense. I enjoy sex ultimately and for me I don’t have a hard and fast rule as every situation is different.
That's why I personally push for a world where women are truly honest about their sexual/dating preferences.
True. I personally would like men on here to simply accept that women treat different men differently and that's okay - instead of shaming or complaining, simply leave if you're unhappy with her treatment of you.
[–]Psych_FI 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
You make lots of valid points. I think women definitely do treat men differently and so do men if we are being entirely honest.
I wish more men realised that attraction isn’t the only reason women treat men differently. There are some reasonable and more complex reasons.
Rather than trying to shame or control women men should figure out if the situation is worth investing in and if not feel confident to walk away.
[–]hari_hbpBlue Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I think women definitely do treat men differently and so do men if we are being entirely honest.
Ofcourse, it's a gender-neutral thing and some men just can't get comfortable with that (I hope they eventually will come to peace with it)
I think they do realise there are other reasons. However, they want to avoid a situation where attraction is the reason.
Basically, the same thing I said.
Anyway, I think we have probably reached the end of discussion as we seem to agree somewhat. It was nice talking to you. Have a wonderful life ahead and see you in some other thread.
[–]Psych_FI 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You too, all the best with everything. ❤️
[–]boomershack 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Most Definitely. 6 months!?
Did you make him wait for religious/spiritual reasons or just ... "muh feelings"
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
No, I just... I don't know I wanted to be sure that I loved him and that I was at least comfortable enough with him to look at him in the eyes, saying I love you and understanding him. It's just I didn't want to use him for sex, just because I wanted to jump on him and I didn't want to have sex with someone without first telling them that I loved him and that I cherished him.
[–]Laytheblameonluck 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
just I didn't want to use him for sex
The thing is most women these days do use men for sex! Second wave feminism made sure it was written everywhere that women should do it, and now they do.
AF/BB is a dichotomy, like the Madonna-Whore dichotomy.
It's most pronounced in women who go decidedly go through a hoe phase before settling down.
Don't men do the same? Go through a sleep-around phase before settling down?
[–]King-SAMOWhy are you like this? 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Only the lucky ones.
[–]Laytheblameonluck 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Stats show that 60% of the girls in your class, they secretly had sex with 20% of the guys in the class.
A big problem is hypoagency, where it's made out that women aren't making these decisions, when it's obvious they are.
Men are described as rapists yet women secretly have sex with them. When a good solution to fighting rape is to have more openness as to whom had sex with whom.
This is the female dichotomy.
[–]boomershack 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is really good.
If I ever want a serious gf/wife I'd want to wait as well for the same reasons as yours, including some religious/spiritual reasons too.
A "beta male" in the modern sense is rly just a guy who's not a fuccboi. To me that's not really a problem as long as you can get someone to "love and cherish" you.
The streets these days are wild.
[–]Hefty-Wolverine3675 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Anything past three weeks I have to assume she is uninterested. Besides she probably gave it easy to another man anyways
What if there is no other man? And there was never another man. Besides we see each other once every three weeks unless I don't have to go uni.
[–]SwaySh0t 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
U don’t sound bitchy u sound awkward. Attractive men will either patiently wait and see/ have sex with other women on the side, or he won’t wait because his other option won’t wait. The market sets the price in this regard not you. In other cases, If he waits, he likely doesn’t have other options so he waits and bides his time while u extract resources through dates and emotional labor and rule making. Of course I’m speaking generally and there are no absolutes, demographics play a huge part as well— in a small rural town where men outnumber women an attractive guy will wait, in big metropolitan cities where women out number men he likely won’t wait because other women won’t let him OR he’s entertaining multiple women.
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Not all men are narcissists.
It’s called exercising options, and by your logic women are far more likely to be narcissistic.
[–]Historical-System972 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago* (19 children) | Copy Link
>My boyfriend waited almost half a year.
If it were me and you didn't put out by date 2, I'd throw you out on your ass.
>Or does this mean that I was not attracted to him?
Yes, that is exactly what it means. This whole post reads like an exercise in denial - like you're trying to convince yourself you didn't get with a guy just for his ability to provide you with resources. The same type of guy you wouldn't have pissed on if he were on fire during your younger years.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link
Er... I'm 22, I was 21 when I got into the relationship... not sure on how much younger I can be. I don't know about resources... he has a car but I have an apartment I pay on my own. We are both studying engineering, I'm younger by one year but I'm closer to getting my bachelor degree whereas he started his own company. If it is the just the two of us he will let me pay if I am sneaky about it (paying while pretending to go to the bathroom).
If it were me and you didn't put out by date 2, I'd throw you out on your ass
There are guys who only date attractive women. I'm not one of them so I won't date those guys.
There are guys who only date women it's easy to get sex from. I'm not one of them so I won't date those guys.
I mean as long it's happens in a civil way I don't think there's anything wrong with having different tastes.
[–]Historical-System972 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago* (17 children) | Copy Link
>Er... I'm 22, I was 21 when I got into the relationship... not sure on how much younger I can be. I don't know about resources... he has a car but I have an apartment I pay on my own. We are both studying engineering, I'm younger by one year but I'm closer to getting my bachelor degree whereas he started his own company. If it is the just the two of us he will let me pay if I am sneaky about it (paying while pretending to go to the bathroom).
Yeah, my parents were both from the professional class too. Difference is after I was born, my mom cut her work hours in half. Ten years later, she stopped working altogether.
>There are guys who only date attractive women. I'm not one of them so I won't date those guys.
What the fuck are you talking about? This has nothing to do with how attractive you are. Fuck, I'm not attractive either - I mean, I am on PPD, after all. The reason I'd throw you out on your ass is because you've clearly shown you don't find me attractive and are only interested in dating me for ulterior motives - you know, like you're doing with your current bf.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
Hmm... I'm not very good with showing and I'm quite direct with words so... by the second date I told him "I'm attracted to you". I'm still learning about the "showing" part. I struggle to know when I should take his hand or kiss his cheek and well... sometimes I just ask him if it's a good moment to do so. And well, if you call it quits after two nights of no sex... well I don't think you're attracted to me either and there's actually an ulterior motive: easy sex.
You referenced your mom... it does seem to imply that "You claim not to be a gold digger but I have the living proof that you could become one so you you might as well be"
My aunt was from a professional class too. She's still making more money than her husband.
So well maybe bringing examples from our own family isn't a great argument?
I mean what ulterior motive can you see from what I actually wrote?
I still don't understand the part where I would not have looked at him in my younger years... I'd like to believe I'm just entering my younger years.
[–]Historical-System9721 points 3 years ago [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link
You can say whatever the fuck you want. Actions speak louder than words.
You're clearly not as attracted to this man as much as you would like people to believe, and I sincerely hope he dumps you because that's honestly what you deserve. And he deserves someone better than you.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
Actions: - no boy has taken me by hand. He has. - no boy has ever kissed me. He has. - no boy has ever seen me naked. He has. - no boy has ever groped me. He has. - no boy has my intimate photos. He has. - no boy can tell me what he prefers women wearing. He can and I do. - I've never given a handjob, footjob and blowjob to anyone. I did it with him.
And yes after all of that
What other action is a girl required to take to prove that she likes a boy?
[–]Historical-System9721 points 3 years ago [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link
So, do you have like reading comprehension problems or something? I'm talking about your actions, not his
You made this poor fucker wait 6 months for sex - that speaks volumes. I don't care what stories you make up now about how hot and torrid the sex supposedly was, or how claim you were virgin before which I personally find difficult - and frankly might be even more distressing if it's true.
There's only two options here: either you're not attracted to your bf, or you're hilariously frigid even by female standards. Either way, this guy needs to dump your ass yesterday.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
Err...I was a virgin before and I actually bleeded the first time I had sex with my boyfriend. I know that it's not a 100% proof but there doesn't seem to a 100% virginity test. In what way is that distressing?
I was told - holding hands - kissing - groping - fingering - blowjob
Was the natural progression before sex? We are long distance and see each other once a month... it took 6 months to get there?
Btw way I'm into orgasm denial in the last month is no orgasm for me, no sex for me but only pleasure for him?
[–]Historical-System9721 points 3 years ago [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link
Err...I was a virgin before and I actually bleeded the first time I had sex with my boyfriend
Ok, cool, so you're just super-fucking frigid then. Great. He should still dump you.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
Does that mean that frigid women should not be looking for relationships? Even if they find frigid men?
[–]Fun_Push7168Brought to you by Carl's Jr 10 points11 points12 points 3 years ago* (27 children) | Copy Link
Yes.
Almost unequivocally. I can think of a handful of guys that were just very religious, definitely not beta, but would wait that long because they were just convicted to no premarital sex, but that was their own self-imposed standard.
Or does this mean that I was not attracted to him?
Idk, is this just your normal standard, or have their been other guys who you were excited about enough to have sex with way sooner? If your last bf or your next one was hot enough to get it in a month but you were able to control yourself with this one then, well...self explanatory.
As with any rule it's a generalization, there are some exceptions. You sound like you wouldn't be quick with anyone , maybe even a virgin or damn near ( at least very young) but....idk
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I am 22 and I was a virgin. I was never attracted to any other boy so I don't know how that would play out. I know my boyfriend never waited that long on any of his exes, certainly not for one night stands. So yeah definitely not religious. And just because we didn't have sex doesn't mean that he didn't make a move, we made out, we groped each other and I blowed him.
[–]hairy_bambooApprentice Shitposter 6 points7 points8 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'd argue oral sex defo counts, but you do you
[–]Fun_Push7168Brought to you by Carl's Jr 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
This shit doesn't apply you.
IMO...... He's iffy or lying in some way probably.
Considering you describe yourself as unattractive and basically chosen when a guy doesn't have other options in your other comment....and this guy waited 6 months?! but you answered that yourself.
Problem is...your self description is bullshit. You are within the attractive range according to the pic in your other post and you need to work on your self confidence.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I mean I know that usually an unattractive girl has to make up for her appearance in some serious way (very good and available sex for instance) IF she wants a relationship. I decided that early on that if that's the price I have to pay then no, I don't yearn for a relationship. Not so bad being single. If my boyfriend dumped me because of that, oh well, back to single life. "But you could've kept him if you gave him sex, you should've at least done that since you're unattractive" I don't think that's someone worth keeping as a partner.
Btw, I asked for advice on skincare because my boyfriend said he really likes pale skin and liked they way I looked when I wasn't as tanned.
[–]Fun_Push7168Brought to you by Carl's Jr 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Umm No.
Pretty sure you're not unattractive in the general sense.
Let's say a girl is less attractive than I'm used to, no she doesn't need to make up for it with sex.
If shes unattractive then why would a guy get together with her in the first place?
So ok, if a woman is less physically attractive than Im used to but I like other things about her, cool, I still like her. When it comes to a relationship the package matters. Most guys are going to put up with an amount of bullshit that is proportional to her looks but there's no making up for anything.
Seriously, who's telling you " you could have kept him if you gave him sex since you're unattractive" just cut that last part off.
Yeah most men are gonna bounce if they gotta wait too long. It ain't because your ugly. If I gotta wait a year with Natalie Portman I'm out. There's other hot women that will fuck me.
[–]AbuSharmootah 6 points7 points8 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
100% her boyfriend is a beta and doesn’t have options. I promise you, any guy with options that isn’t religious is not waiting half a year to smash.
[–]Valuable-Marzipan761 6 points7 points8 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Depends on age. If they're teenagers it's often not unusual to wait that l9ng.
[–]AbuSharmootah 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
If it’s their first relationship/she’s a virgin it’s understandable. Besides that, no.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Well we are 22, maybe that's still considered teenager I don't know. I pay for my bills and he started a company. I was a virgin yes... but does that mean if I ever have another relationship it's unacceptable for me to abstain from sex before knowing someone because I'm not a virgin anymore? I mean if I feel shy just being around someone because my heart is beating fast I'd feel even more awkward with sex?
[–]Fun_Push7168Brought to you by Carl's Jr 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Don't worry about it, do what you feel. This has zero bearing on your part until you have some experience.
[–]FractalChinchilla 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I mean if I feel shy just being around someone
That tends to go away with experience. Hence why they speculated that if you were a virgin.
but does that mean if I ever have another relationship it's unacceptable for me to abstain from sex before knowing someone because I'm not a virgin anymore?
I don't think so. Do whatever makes you feel most comfortable.
It’s common for adults too
[–]python834 10 points11 points12 points 3 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link
When women are genuinely attracted to a man, they will have sex on the first date. By genuine, I mean instinctive carnal desire that cannot be quenched.
Ive been the nerdy loser in highschool, and the chad in college, and it is a night and day difference what genuine attraction feels like on the receiving end. I’ve had women stalk me in college, and constantly message me whether or not I was hanging with specific girls at specific times. Its crazy.
Genuine attraction cannot be negotiated. You either have it or you don’t. There are no exceptions unless your partner gets a glow up phase part way into your relationship.
[–]Fun_Push7168Brought to you by Carl's Jr 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
Yeah, basically. Again, there are some exceptions. I mean there are your goody goody girls that will be mega attracted to someone, wet just hugging, and still pass but it's a tight standard they always keep and usually for religious reasons.
I'm giving a little leeway, she sounds shy, awkward and even talks about needing to say I love you before sex....I get a sense these two are just kids.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
We are 22, I pay my own rent and he started his company. I'm not religious and he slept around. I do get wet when he touches me in ANY way.
[–]januaryphilosopherWoman/student/UK/radfem/makes first move/healthy BMI/bi/taken 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Have you considered that you just tend to attract women who are into casual sex? Many just aren't comfortable with doing that no matter what, even if they are very attracted to the other person, although I definitely believe the amount you're attracted to someone changes over time.
[–]PraiseGodd__1 points 3 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
He's probably LARPing tbh, so many men post shit on here about how they're an Adonis just to push their narrative.
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes, this is an absurd take. Women that behave like that will usually do it across the board.
I’m not into casual sex nor are many women. A lot of us have enough mental and sexual control that we are fully able to abstain or even direct our drive or whatnot in accordance with other things. I’m conscientious enough.
When a woman is drunk, she might be able to want to do it sooner. I myself still have myself well under control with alcohol, but generally it just happens that the person loses self control, is less likely to think about the consequences. Attraction doesn’t change.
I was genuinely attracted to him, though my attraction grew even bigger after we started dating. I would've liked to jump on him after a month or so but I felt shy and awkward and I wanted to be grow more comfortable when around him.
[–]Steakman1All Men Have Piss Bags 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
yes.
But she said she was ready to have sex a month into the relationship. Which means him waiting 6 months was entirely his own decision. So how does that make him a beta when he had 100% control in that decision? Her explanation for why it didn’t happen doesnt really look like a lack if attraction.
[–]Fun_Push7168Brought to you by Carl's Jr 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No , she said she was attracted enough she would have liked to a month in but then describes being too shy to do so.
Doesn't even say whether she made him wait or it just didn't happen until she got over the shyness but if I had to guess it sounds like the latter. Which also means he likely just didn't make any moves despite " sleeping in a big bed with her" so it points to serious beta shit.
[–]python834 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Aint nobody waiting 1 month for sex unless they are desperate
[–]Steakman1All Men Have Piss Bags -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You dudes be wild.
Sometimes the men want to wait
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It's way easier to dump someone when you're convinced they feel zero desire for you than to acknowledge the messy, complicated reality that it is 100% valid to dump an individual who may in fact love and desire you but is not compatible
[–]King-SAMOWhy are you like this? 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Underrated comment right here.
[–]risdeveau 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes. Please, please, men, if a woman makes you wait even a teensy bit, run the other way
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
So he wasn't attractive for you to take a risk and fuck him anyway.
What is this comfortable shit, sex is not comfortable, it is tension all about tension.
If he was an attractive male, you would of fucked him regardless of any unease you felt, as your emotions would of driven you to it.
Guy is a chump that does not know his self worth if he waited.
There's no level of attractiveness that would make me jump on people.
Before my boyfriend I actually thought that there was no level of attractiveness that would make me desire a relationship. My boyfriend proved me wromg.
And yes sex was not comfortable, but it was with the only person I ever found attractive, someone I'd come to cherish, someone I could care for, take care of and who, in turn, took care of me. Someone who actually taught that sex was not scary and could in fact be good and enjoyable.
[–]kellydayscruff 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
It doesnt. Every relationship whether platonic or romantic, professional or otherwise has a buyer and a seller. The buyer wants what the seller has and the seller sets the price. The buyer either decides that the cost is worth it or not.
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
If you see relationships as that transactional maybe don’t have them.
[–]kellydayscruff 6 points7 points8 points 3 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
Every relationship is transactional. Once you determine things you need in a relationship, that is your selling price. Thats the reason youve never dated someone handicapped or been attracted to someone homeless.
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
That’s the way narcissists think. Seeing another person as a supply to achieve sometjing from them. Obviously there is a certain degree you expect from a relationship, but you fall in love first not based on what you can ”get”.
[–]kellydayscruff 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
That “certain degree you expect” is your selling price lol why cant you accept that? When you determine the value of a car, some peoples “certain degree you expect” is just four wheels and a working motor. Others want leather seats, AC and a moon roof. Does that make sense?
You buy a house, some peoples “certain degree you expect” is a 2 bedroom and a roof that doesn’t leak. Others are 5 bedrooms and a pool.
Maybe “what you can get” is a small thing and maybe there are several big things, but its always based on what they can add to your life. Always.
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Add to life is a broad term but what you are describing sounds like using another person as a supply. It’s a very narcissist mindset.
[–]kellydayscruff 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
We’re all narcissists.
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
No?
[–]UrMomsFatTiddies1 points 3 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link
He is right. People date eachother for selfish reasons all the time. You want a partner because YOU are lonely and horny. Not because someone else was lonely and horny and you just had to help them out
[–]kellydayscruff 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Perfectly said
[–]sparklyyblueberryy -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I don’t ”want” a partner. I just happen to find someone. To me I like making a partner happy, I don’t use them to fill a void…
[–]TheRedPillRipperAn open mind opens doors. 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
you fall in love
Lust first. It’s attraction first. Love, transactional or otherwise, is superfluous. If you’re not first attracting the opposite sex.
What do you mean that love is superfluous?
[–]TheRedPillRipperAn open mind opens doors. 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
There’s a minimum threshold, that must be met first. Love is superfluous to that.
For approaching maybe. I think love can be learned and most people get to know each other on friendly terms first.
[–]TheRedPillRipperAn open mind opens doors. 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
on friendly terms first
Whilst I agree love grows, unfortunately like the original reply, it’s not growing between a homeless bum, and a CEO. All relationships begin, after first impressions. Even friendship.
Godspeed and good luck!
[–]DarkBrandon46 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Theres too much missing context to say one way or the other. I tried looking into your post history to see if I could get any insight and I see you only have 1 comment a couple months back talking about you being unattractive and that if a guy is interested it's only because he couldn't get what he was interested in. You tell this person you're replying to that even she will do for a one night stand. You could correct me if I'm wrong, but this comes off as if you're speaking from experience.
Perhaps I'm mistaken and you hold this waiting standard to all men, which if that's the case than no you're not a bitch and he's not a beta, but on the other hand, if you are in fact willing to have one night stands with a certain man or men and you're making this dude wait than youd basically be backing up the theory. In that case, yes he beta bucked while the alpha fucked. If this is the case, I wouldn't say youre a bitch, but I would say you are the female equivalent of the guy who uses you for sex but takes girls he's interested in more seriously.
I was never attracted to any other boy so I don't know how that would play out.
Direct experience? No. I was not speaking from direct experience. What actually happens is that I know that's how it would play out so I directly ask "so, who was the girl you were actually attracted to?". I like it when we can both agree on what were actually doing and you know you could get a new friend instead of a proof that "all men are assholes"
[–]throwaway316stunner 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Is he a beta?
Well, that depends. Did you have sex with other guys before him? If so, did it take SIX MONTHS? Did they have to jump through less hoops to get in bed with you?
If your respective answers are Yes, No, and Yes, then he is a beta.
[–]C4yourshelf 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
She was a virgin before this lmao. Idk why she's concerned about AF/BB.
I was never attracted to any other boy.
Your bf is totally a beta lol
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Why so?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Waiting for 6 months? No guy who can get sex easily would wait even 6 dates nevermind 6 months.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
He has female friends who would be up for sex... I told him that I could understand that and even support him but I couldn't do it as his girlfriend. By the time he was 22 he had two LTR (1 year and 2.5 years), sleeping around when he was not in a relationship. He is now 22 and I'm his third gf. I don't really think that getting sex is a problem of his.
You sure you're his gf though? Sounds like he got some on the side still. Or maybe you're the side?
Pretty sure, disinstalled Tinder the day after we started dating, not seeing any other girl, works 10 hours/day in the company he started with his male friends, generally very good at communicating any problem he sees in the relationship early on.
[–]LaloTwinsCAESARPilled 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Did he try to have sex with you during those 6 months?
Have you ever had sex with someone sooner than that timeframe?
If no to both these questions then he's not a Beta.
Bluepilled maybe but not necessarily a Beta.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I was never attracted to any other boy. I don't if it counts as trying to have sex but he did a lot of teasing ( " You think this is good? Think about how better it would be with something bigger than my fingers"). What does bluepilled mean in this context?
[–]LaloTwinsCAESARPilled 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
So he's the only guy you've ever been with?
Bluepilled is a term Redpillers refer to describe those who they believe are still stuck in the metaphorical matrix.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Ok, so respecting your partner's decision is... bluepilled?
[–]LaloTwinsCAESARPilled 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Not necessarily
What part of this is bluepilled then?
[–]LaloTwinsCAESARPilled 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
none necessarily
[–]GVM3SnakeBeater 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]RedditsOlderBrah 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This theory was completely made up as a post hoc justification for failure by extremely bitter and unsuccessful men.
[–]DisasterPeace7Purple Pill Man 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Unless you were a virgin, probably yeah🤷♂️
But I'm not going to get too much into your own personal relationship. being the BB is probably the best strategy for guys who don't have the options or an abundance mindset, you're not her ideal guy, probably wouldn't have gotten a look from her in her prime physical years, not her first or second or maybe even top 10 option but you're a safe reliable option, not the worst place for a lot of guys but not the ideal cream of the crop situation, it is what it is
[–]sparklyyblueberryy -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
A lot of guys want to be betas. ”The best strategy if he doesn’t have options or abundance mindset” - not all men want to use women to obtain as much sex as possible. Men with options might also very well be likely to be ok with waiting and not chasing sex because they know they can get it.
[–]poppy_blu1 points 3 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
all of this sounds very weird and contrived to me
Probably because it’s bullshit.
It’s cope for losers who can’t get women.
[–]Mrs_DrgreeNow Accepting Simp Applications[M] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Your comment was removed for cope.
Depends, did you let a guy you met a week prior rail you immediately?
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Those that say ”if she made me wait I would dump her/go for other women” or ”if he had options he would have” are first of all deluded (not all men want to use women as a supply for sex). But second of all proving the superiority of waiting because it shows who is with you for the wrong reasons/only want you for sex.
[–]Psych_FI 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Exactly. You lose nothing by waiting as a woman and the longer the better. You see who people really are and if you ask relevant questions it saves your time, energy and stress.
[–]SwaySh0t 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
You lose the guy you’re genuinely attracted too. High status men time is valuable, they’re not going to wait on you if dozens of other girls are looking to take your place.
I don't want a high status man. I want a high value partner. I want my boyfriend who I'm genuinely attracted to. And if he decides I'm not worth the wait well my attraction to him would probably fade. I'm genuinely attracted to him Because he treats me, and the people around him, with respect and is respected in return. And well if a guy decides that I'm not worth his time then I'll decide that he was not worth mine.
[–]SwaySh0t -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Hamsters gunna hamster
What does it mean?
[–]Psych_FI 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
No guarantee if you sleep with him that he’ll marry you or be the one. So you can wait till you’ve vetted him and if he wants to go the door is always open.
Some men will wait as long you want them too and still leave you, some will even do it out of spite. Waiting is not an end all be all. I’ve also said previously on this post that attractive men still entertaining and sleep with other women on the side while they wait.
[–]Psych_FI 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Cool, totally fine with men doing the most to potentially sleep with me.
It’s not about waiting but vetting simultaneously and giving yourself time. By not sleeping with a guy your decision making is on point and you get to really understand who this guy is as a person.
I don’t care who the guy sleeps with as long as they pass a full STI test including bloods and provides proof when I’m open to sex but that’s not guaranteed.
[–]Specialist-Action-33Magnet for lame modest women & PPD Jail Bait - 4 time felon 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
I can assure I was very much attracted to him and I would've liked to have sex a month into the relationship. But I was still quite nervous when talking to him and couldn't actually hold his gaze for more than 10 seconds. I thought that he deserved a girlfriend whose eyes he could look into before having sex and I trained myself to do so.
You can sugarcoat that as much as you want, you still made him wait. Did you make other men wait?
Your bf is better than me. Either I would have bounced, or if I really wanted a relationship with you that much, I would have had someone fulfill my sexual desires until whenever you were considered "ready" and could have given less than af tbh.
I knew it would be unfair to both of us to have sex when I was too shy/awkward to muster a "I love you".
Possible reasons for this. If you were not as experienced then you were probably just having an expection for a strong relationship. If you were experienced, you probably don't find him attractive enough to have sex with him until almost 6 months but continue to fool yourself into thinking so and coming up with excuses to why you didn't want to. Straight BB move there. In that case he should have known it was cap and done something about it rather than sticking around for that long. Thats only if it applies though.
Edit: I just saw the comment that you said you were a 22 yr old virgin. In that case half the stuff I just mentioned is irrelevant. He is not a beta in this case. If you lost your virginity to him then its understandable why you waited so long.
Wait a second, so if I ever get into another relationship if I'm not having sex within "X" amount of time it means that I don't value him/I'm not attracted to him because I'm no longer a virgin so I don't get that pass? Even if I'm not attracted to anyone else, not seeing anyone else, I'm making him a a priority in my life, we are making out, teasing each other and we are sexting?
[–]HobbitShaker88 -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Its is weird and contrived.
When I dated I never had sex quickly. Why?
Im. Not. Comfortable. Enough. To. Screw. Someone. I Barely. Know. Even. When. I. Think. You. Are. Hot.
Most men I met off of OLD, by the 3rd date I had spent a grand total of 6 hours with them!!!!!!!! They could have been just released from prison, how the heck would I know that when Ive spent 6 hours with them, never talked to any of their friends or family, never seen them deal with a negative emotion or stress?
THE END
[–]Diddy_1978 -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That theory is shit, and it can only be considered if you consider sex and relationships am exchange. It does not understand personal growth or feelings.
[–]Wide-Illustrator2906 -3 points-2 points-1 points 3 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
I don't know your boyfriend or his beliefs but if he waited to have sex with you when he wanted to have sex then yes, he is a beta because he is denying his own feelings and desires to appease someone else.
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
That’s called being a normal human and not a narcissist.
[–]Wide-Illustrator2906 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
It's not human nature to deny your feelings, wants or desires because you don't want to offend someone else. It's social conditioning.
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
Empathy or agreeableness is not socially conditioned. Even animals care for others.
[–]Wide-Illustrator2906 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link
The empathetic thing to do would be to be honest and say how you feel. It's 100% okay for her not to have sex with anyone she doesn't want to regardless of how long they've been dating or seeing each other. Just as it's 100% okay for him to stop dating her if she's not interested in having sex with him, they are simply not sexually compatible.
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
The rest would be deception but no, if you can understand someone elses perspective then you should be able to put them first out of care and affection and understanding. That would affect what someone wants as well.
[–]Wide-Illustrator2906 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Why does he have to put her needs before his? Why can't she put his needs before hers?
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
He doesn’t have to. When you like someone you want to, and then you come to an agreement. Nobody ”needs” sex first.
[–]Wide-Illustrator2906 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I guess the question is why doesn't she want to? Like you said, "When you like someone you want to, and then you come to an agreement." It's obvious she isn't into him like that, especially if she had sex with other guys earlier. Her attraction and chemistry with him isn't as strong as it was with other guys which, is perfectly fine and normal. No two relationships are the same so different people can't expect the same treatment but everyone has a choice if they are willing to accept that different treatment.
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
But that’s not the case though.
Old comment: ”Women might not think about how this hurts a man or how he might feel jealous, but it genuinely doesn’t have to do with attractiveness imo. I have never done it and I don’t know if it is very moral, but I’ve heard other people reasoning in a way which I can agree with or understand. Women risk feeling some sort of post sex emptiness, and this is more Common after casual sex. But. If a woman has feelings for a guy it would probably be much more soul and heart crushing if he ended up only wanting her for sex. This is a big fear for women. Don’t being loveable. To those casual men she didn’t care about that because she knew what she was getting into.
Reason for all this is that we women don’t see ”getting sex” or casual sex is an achievement. I guess we project that onto men. If a man wanted to wait to have sex with me but jumped into bed directly with others I would for example not think that I am less attractive, I would be so happy. I would see it as him caring about my feelings and me as a person and wanting to know me first.”
Any person who is not drunk doesn’t decide their choices in life as some sort of whim based on emotions.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't think he was denying his feelings, I mean he told he really desired me and I told him I really desired him too and if my heart and my feelings dictated my actions I would've said yes right there and then. I... actually felt somewhat ashamed of the fact that I desired him so much despute still not knowing his favorite movie, book, videogame,...
[–]ruboyuri 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Then almost all humans are beta
[–]Wide-Illustrator2906 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
True. Most people are scared to communicate their wants and desires or think for themselves, they simply go along with the status quo, only to complain about where they end up at a later date.
[–]vogel7771 points 3 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
Alpha Fucks, Beta Bucks is horseshit, its a red pill brain fart and these guys get high huffing on them. Please don't concern yourself with what you read from men on here these theories don't apply to healthy individuals.
[–]OrdinaryFarmerBurgundy Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
How is it horseshit?
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[–]John_OakmanLVM advocate 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
Its never a good idea to wait, but for different reasons than others have noted. If a male is that obsessed with sex then waiting is also a form of long term deception towards the woman in the relationship.
Wait out of a sense of respect and boundaries, not out of a sense of pay off.
This
How does make me a bitchy woman and my boyfriend a loser man?
It doesn’t. You’re just inexperienced. Nor does it make your boyfriend a loser. He has a reason for waiting. Which may be genuine, however only he knows.
Never worth the wait
You’ll find out. If you two last; then it was worth the wait.
I think you're over complicating things.
Lots of women attach certain feelings to sex and they only want to have sex after they've known someone for a while.
Some men understand this, or they have trad views and respect it - so they just wait.
Obviously it's entirely dependent on social circles and culture.
Maybe that's it what missing from this discussion. Some men understand.
I'm not American and even I know that waiting for sex is a very normal thing to do over the pond.
If they don't want to wait and they find it annoying, I'm sure they can find someone else.
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[–]kellydayscruff 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]sparklyyblueberryy -1 points0 points1 point (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]TheRedPillRipperAn open mind opens doors. 0 points1 point2 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]TheRedPillRipperAn open mind opens doors. 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]TheRedPillRipperAn open mind opens doors. 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]DarkBrandon46 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]throwaway316stunner 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]C4yourshelf 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]C4yourshelf 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]LaloTwinsCAESARPilled 1 point2 points3 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]LaloTwinsCAESARPilled 1 point2 points3 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]LaloTwinsCAESARPilled 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]LaloTwinsCAESARPilled 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]GVM3SnakeBeater 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]RedditsOlderBrah 5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]DisasterPeace7Purple Pill Man 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]sparklyyblueberryy -2 points-1 points0 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]poppy_blu1 points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Mrs_DrgreeNow Accepting Simp Applications[M] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 2 points3 points4 points (9 children) | Copy Link
[–]Psych_FI 0 points1 point2 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]SwaySh0t 0 points1 point2 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]SwaySh0t -1 points0 points1 point (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Psych_FI 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]SwaySh0t 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Psych_FI 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Specialist-Action-33Magnet for lame modest women & PPD Jail Bait - 4 time felon 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]HobbitShaker88 -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Diddy_1978 -2 points-1 points0 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Wide-Illustrator2906 -3 points-2 points-1 points (16 children) | Copy Link
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 3 points4 points5 points (12 children) | Copy Link
[–]Wide-Illustrator2906 0 points1 point2 points (11 children) | Copy Link
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 0 points1 point2 points (10 children) | Copy Link
[–]Wide-Illustrator2906 0 points1 point2 points (9 children) | Copy Link
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 0 points1 point2 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]Wide-Illustrator2906 0 points1 point2 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 0 points1 point2 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]Wide-Illustrator2906 0 points1 point2 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]sparklyyblueberryy 0 points1 point2 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]ruboyuri 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Wide-Illustrator2906 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]vogel7771 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]OrdinaryFarmerBurgundy Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]AutoModerator[M] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]John_OakmanLVM advocate 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]TheRedPillRipperAn open mind opens doors. 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]AutoModerator[M] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]AutoModerator[M] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link