CMV: "Men Do It Too" is not a valid justification.

angels_fan · 2015-08-04T18:14:15+00:00

I think it's more of a counter to AWALT.

If men do it too, then it is more appropriate to say AH(umans)ALT instead of AWALT.

Archwinger · 2015-08-04T19:24:00+00:00

The real problem with the "Men, too" response is that it's completely irrelevant to The Red Pill, and Purple Pill Debate by extension (since it exists to debate Red Pill concepts).

The Red Pill is a discussion on sexual strategy for heterosexual men seeking to have sexual success with women.

This means that relevant Red Pill subject matter includes traits and behaviors that lead to success with women, identifying positive or negative characteristics of women, and learning how to navigate those characteristics.

The Red Pill is all about men maximizing their sexual success. It's not about building strong relationships with women, though there's some overlap there. It's not about becoming a strong and upstanding, morally upright leader among men, though there's some overlap there. It's really just a bunch of men theorizing on what traits and behaviors to pursue to get women to want to fuck them, and what to watch out for from women while doing this.

So when The Red Pill proposes something like, "Stupid cunt women do behavior X because they're so stupid and so cunty," it doesn't matter if "Men do that too" is completely 100% true, or even if men do that more often. That is irrelevant information that is off-topic and has nothing to do with The Red Pill. Because The Red Pill isn't about men, men's shortcomings, or things men do that women need to watch out for.

When The Red Pill declares "Women suck because of X," people are quick to hear some kind of hidden message -- "Because you said women suck and not men, you're implying that men don't suck! And that's wrong! Men suck, too!" The response from The Red Pill to that kind of off-topic and irrelevant statement should be, without fail, "So what? Unless you're telling me how sucking or not sucking will help me get laid, GTFO."

SmurfESmurferson · 2015-08-04T12:20:47+00:00

My take on it is that MDIT isn't supposed to make it "right" or "good"

It's supposed to serve as a reminder that women are human, too, and prone to making the same mistakes men do. RP likes to make excuses for men, but expect perfection from women.

In doing so, RP sets itself up for disappointment and anger. No one is perfect, not even women.

It's just a reminder to extend the same kindness to women that you do to men.

[deleted] · 2015-08-04T19:25:47+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Xemnas81 · 2015-08-04T12:48:44+00:00

I've encountered women who view the entire male gender with contempt. Women who believe all men are shallow, sex-obsessed cheating pigs and assholes. I frequently tell them: "women do it, too".

I've encountered men who view the entire female gender with contempt. Men who believe all women are inherently bad and inferior to men in matter of having a good character and behaving virtuously. I frequently tell them: "men do it, too".

Just speaking for myself, but I don't say either of these things to excuse or justify the bad behavior of either gender. It's just a reminder that bad behavior is not confined to one gender.

I_TRY_TO_BE_POSITIVE · 2015-08-04T21:35:48+00:00

x does it too is a standard 5 year old's justification argument. It doesn't hold water for them, it certainly doesn't for adults.

That being said, I think it is rightly called hypocritical to hold one group to one set of standards and the other to another. If you think your woman should not be allowed to be a whore... you're gonna have to have a legitimate leg to stand on to make that argument. What is scientifically legitimate and what is socially legitimate don't intersect all that often. Ex: Attempting to create integrated frontline units.

buttlollipop · 2015-08-04T22:09:23+00:00

People usually say that because the assumption going into it is that "Women do X, therefore women are bad/worse than men" If men do the same thing, it doesn't make X okay, but it means X doesn't prove women's inferiority or why "women are shit" or something like that, just that people are generally shitty, or at least have the capability to be shitty.

Maybe you don't think women are worse than men/inferior/awful, etc, but a lot of people on TRP do, and even on this sub, so it's usually assumed when someone starts criticizing women on the whole that their motivation for it is to "prove" that women are inferior.

mcconnelldemasi · 2015-08-04T22:53:16+00:00

MDIT does not mean men are hypocrites for calling out women's bad behavior. There is men's bad behavior; and there is women's bad behavior. Two different things, two different standards. You do not get to deflect the conversation from women's iniquities by saying that men engage in similar iniquities.

So you're claiming that both genders are doing two different things but agree with MDIT which means the very opposite. You just don't care that MDIT because of the different arbitrary standards between both genders that you hold them to.

I'm going to pull out the subjectivity card. Standards are held by individuals. Each individual have a different standard. Some believe that men and women should be treated equally and held to the same standard. Others like you don't and it doesn't make you a hypocrite because you don't believe in equality to be hypocritical about.

Lots of feminists don't believe in equality too. You should join their group.

wtknight · 2015-08-04T12:19:41+00:00

There is men's bad behavior; and there is women's bad behavior. Two different things, two different standards.

No, not true. Humans should all be held to the same standards. Isn't that what TRP tries to say when women get special treatment like affirmative action? Or when they get a pass for their criminal activity and are not punished as much as men are?

babydocnorman · 2015-08-04T17:24:11+00:00

But women do it more (new acronym WDIM). Recent surveys show that women cheat at least as much as men and the majority of divorces are initiated by women.

HappilySingleWoman · 2015-08-04T13:20:45+00:00

People only say this because TRPillers often act like men are noble saints who can do no wrong.

Hawanja · 2015-08-04T18:33:18+00:00

In a discussion about relationships, the only way for it to be well rounded is to include both sexes. Saying "men do it too" should not be an excuse, however pointing out one sex while ignoring the other doesn't give us the full story.

octopus_sushi · 2015-08-04T19:07:28+00:00

MDIT does not mean men are hypocrites for calling out women's bad behavior

Two different things, two different standards

Yeah but that's literally the definition of hypocrisy. You're judging women by a standard you wouldn't hold yourself to.

I guess the dissonance comes in because TBP, like most of the rest of the first world consider women to be pretty much equal to men.

VermiciousKnidzz · 2015-08-04T16:11:11+00:00

The fact that men engage in similar conduct has nothing to do with anything.

you only think that because you think people are defined by their genitals

Anarchkitty · 2015-08-04T16:57:30+00:00

MDIT doesn't mean "It's okay for women to do it."

MDIT means "This isn't something women do, it is something people do."

It has nothing to do with justifying or excusing the behavior, it is just clarifying the discussion point. That is not to say that some people use MDIT (or WDIT) to try and shut down discussions, but that is a misuse of the phrase and it doesn't make sense in context.

Amethhyst · 2015-08-04T14:57:07+00:00

I would guess the reason that people respond 'men do it too' is not to justify the behaviour, but to point out hypocrisy. It helps to illustrate that x is less of a 'women' thing and more of a 'people' thing. For example, saying 'Cars made by Ford are fitted with seatbelts because it would be unsafe to drive without them', while true, is not very apt since it is only half of the truth - in reality, all cars are fitted with seatbelts for this reason. So it would be silly to go around saying that cars made by Ford are less safe than other cars because they require seatbelts.

Two different things, two different standards.

The very phrase 'MDIT' suggests that it IS the same behaviour we're talking about, so it's not in fact 'two different' things'. Indeed, 'Two different standards' is an example of the exact hypocrisy you're trying to deny. Why are you applying to different standards to the same behaviour?

The fact that men engage in similar conduct has nothing to do with anything.

I think it does.

How does MDIT make it "right" or "good"?

No one is SAYING 'MDIT' makes a thing right or good.

whirled___peas · 2015-08-04T18:44:08+00:00

Third, MDIT does not mean men are hypocrites for calling out women's bad behavior. There is men's bad behavior; and there is women's bad behavior. Two different things, two different standards.

No. There is just bad behavior and good behavior. If two groups are doing the same thing, one group does not make it "bad." It's either acceptable or it's not. The person doing it does not change the "rightness" or the behavior.

[deleted] · 2015-08-04T20:02:51+00:00

The fact that men engage in bad behavior has nothing to do with women's bad behavior.

How does it not? Majority of people are shitty. If you want the "bad behavior" addressed, then you need to realize it's a pervasive problem, not a concentrated-by-gender problem.

LUClEN · 2015-08-04T20:35:10+00:00

The problem with simply throwing out a men do it too argument is that it does not address the real refutation: neither is wrong when they do it. There is no moral obligation to be with someone you do not find attractive, or to put someone else's romantic interests above your own.

Who cares if men or women do it, that's the way the game works.

I would rather go that route than try to say it's a tu quo Que

Doldenberg · 2015-08-05T15:31:09+00:00

Third, MDIT does not mean men are hypocrites for calling out women's bad behavior. There is men's bad behavior; and there is women's bad behavior. Two different things, two different standards. You do not get to deflect the conversation from women's iniquities by saying that men engage in similar iniquities.

That's your problem and that's why you don't understand the argument. MDIT is brought up because Terpers will often claim that women are like X and Men are like Y. So someone say, actually, men are like X to.

If of course you then directly continue that men and women need to be held to different standards, for whatever stupid reason you just pulled out of your ass, you're correct that this argument will be of no relevance to you.

darthbarracuda · 2015-08-16T03:39:27+00:00

I hate how men and women are so separated here. Like it's completely reasonable to generalize about the other sex but then when it comes to your own it's much more personal.

It's not that there's two camps, males and females. It's that there's one camp, human, that is made of billions of people that share similar traits.

pickup_sticks · 2015-08-04T13:48:48+00:00

My issue is with RP men simultaneously blathering on about "sexual strategy is amoral" but then getting butthurt when they encounter women who take that to heart as much as they do and use it to elevate their own moral status.

RareBlur · 2015-08-04T14:21:15+00:00

It has to do with the phrase taking the log out of tour own eye before pointing out the sticks in someone else's.

Also, we don't have enough acronyms. Please make more of them.

GingersInParis · 2015-08-04T12:35:00+00:00

In my opinion, one can (and should, enjoy your fun while it lasts) screw around to ones hearts content whilst single, but shouldnt cheat in a marriage or "official" relationship. Open relationships and "friends-with-benefits" don´t necessarily count as "official".

On cheating: Just because your spouse cheats on you doesnt mean you should cheat on them. Just divorce them and be done with it. If they´re cheating on you, in the words of DJ Khaled: They dont love you no more.

TRPACC · 2015-08-04T15:15:18+00:00

My response is: So what? It's not relevant to anything. The fact that men engage in bad behavior has nothing to do with women's bad behavior.

The point is that behaviour isn't "mens" or "womens".

Its human behaviour .

People will have sex with hotter people, people will cheat .

Accept reality and move on red pill .

max_peenor · 2015-08-04T15:14:04+00:00

RP likes to make excuses for men

Bullshit. A man takes responsibility for their actions. Excuses are a beta trait.

thereddespair · 2015-08-04T15:24:45+00:00

who cares what people think in general.

you do not even have to justify your actions to anybody and have to say men do it too or not.

pandorarosie · 2015-08-04T18:03:52+00:00

So what? It's not relevant to anything.

Oh we know. But we hear it time and time again whenever we voice women experience issue X...men do too! You know very well it's a silencing technique. It's like...great, but we aren't talking about men right now. It's as if when someone says that, it excuses what happens to women...because men experience it too!

Title	CMV: "Men Do It Too" is not a valid justification.
Author	PemBayliss
Upvotes	16
Comments	125
Date	August 4, 2015 12:03 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3fqkry/cmv_men_do_it_too_is_not_a_valid_justification/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-men-do-it-too-is-not-a-valid-justification.280521 https://theredarchive.com/post/280521

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