Q4ALL: What is the biggest counter-example you've seen in person against RP theory?

WineCon · 2018-08-18T00:36:54+00:00

Frankly? Myself. I went through a bad point in my marriage that led me to the red pill, about 6 years ago. Long story that I won't recount. Very painful. I gravitated toward the entire manosphere, though mainly toward Athol Kay, who seemed pretty grounded. I didn't care for the more blatantly oddball folks out there like RooshV and so on. I worked on myself a bit, got out of a mode where I was emotionally needy, but pushing beyond that into "alpha" wasn't really something that suited me, and, as it turns out, didn't suit my wife's attraction to me.

The biggest thing that ended up working for me was finishing school, getting a job, and not really taking much shit from anyone because they generally couldn't do what I do. And what I did. But what stuck with me was how poorly the majority of the red pill philosophy kept failing me as I moved forward.

It taught me how to treat women, and how they would act around me. Well, I happened to enter a profession that is more women than men, and I happened to be hired into a company where the only men are me, the president, and another coworker. Everyone else is a woman, and basically everyone holds their own. It's a pretty great place to work, all told, and we do are, as a team, leaders in the industry I practice in. I feel well respected as someone who is highly competent, and it's overall a great position. For what it's worth: it is a STEM position.

My wife, in particular, never responded to basically any red pill philosophy. The more I worked out, the less she cared. The more I asserted myself, the less we slept together. The more alpha I was, the less she was interested in me. It was very odd, considering what I had read and had come to understand and internalize. It taught me that this experience is very real for a lot of men, but it isn't real for everyone. And I learned that there are a few messages/lessons from the red pill that were very valuable, and lot more that weren't.

Valuable:

1) You don't have to let people walk all over you. This is easier said than learned, but it is very true, and people do respond to it when you're respectfully assertive

2) It is a good thing to take care of yourself.

3) Learning, getting better, and getting more interesting pay off a lot of dividends, even if you're doing nerdy shit like playing board games. There are a lot of interesting people out there doing oddball stuff, and you should consider spending more time away from your own bubble and out in the world, if you can.

Not so valuable:

1) Looking at women, in general, as poor workers or people who are not much good for anything. Particularly the philosophy that says women are children...it is extremely counterproductive in all of my professional interactions.

2) Looking at life as a chase for sex. This holds you back quite a lot. The less I push for that, the more I get and feel satisfied.

3) Looking at every interaction as transactional or some kind of punishment/reward. I don't "help" around the house to get my wife to appreciate the shit I do. I work on my own home because it's my space. (as an example)

Broadly, it's been a mixed bag with the red pill for me. There's a lot of powerfully positive messaging out there, mixed with a whole lot of self loathing and hatred of other people. I understand that some people have been screwed over royally (and I do know what that feels like). I understand that there are people who live lives that adhere very strictly to what the red pill says your life will be like. But in my life? There's no way you can internalize red pill principles and make use of them on a routine basis when you go into the fields I've gone into. Women are too varied, just like men. I had to grow up and drop the red pill at some point. I'm glad I did before I did something I regret, and for that I came out better than before.

Willow-girl · 2018-08-18T05:12:36+00:00

My stepdad was a quiet man. He and his first wife couldn't have children of their own, so they adopted three -- two from a very troubled family background -- and raised numerous foster kids as well as being a sort of 'neighborhood dad' to strays like myself. He was a Christian, Southern Baptist. did not lift. He did not practice 'dread game.' I don't think I ever heard him raise his voice. He rescued my mother from a terrible marriage (yes, Captain Save-a-Hoe!), treated her wonderfully and took care of her while she was dying. Everyone who knew this man loved and respected him. He was a treasure. RIP, Ed.

Mystique94 · 2018-08-18T00:37:48+00:00

Most women I know don't behave in the way RP describes. I've had several female friends who were virgins into their mid-20s who were totally normal people, but relationships and sex weren't top priorities for them and they didn't sleep around or participate in the hookup scene. Not religious girls or anything either. The whole Cock Carousel thing doesn't really apply to my social group either. Many got married with their college boyfriends after graduating, are still dating long term partners, or are now in their first serious relationship. Some are still single. NAWALT.

EDIT: phrasing.

wub1234 · 2018-08-18T02:29:52+00:00

This isn't a counter-example as such. But, let's be honest, we're always told...lifting, lifting, lifting. They quite like lifting.

This is cited as almost the be-all and end-all of life. Woe betide you if you suggest, as I have and do, that lifting isn't all that useful full stop, and certainly not the best thing you can do in order to improve your dating life.

If you suggest this then you will encounter resistance. So you would think that this would be reflected in the real world, and there would be loads of obviously muscular men wandering around, with all other men starved of attention.

In reality, in the last four years, I've only seen maybe a handful of guys who were either impressive physical specimens or particularly muscular, who quite obviously hit the gym a lot.

Two of them I walked past one day, and they both work in a gym as personal trainers!

One of them was the professional footballer (soccer player) Virgil van Dijk. I have seen other professional footballers at close quarters, including Paul Pogba and Joleon Lescott (I appreciate Americans are reading this and thinking "who the fuck are these people?") and they looked skinny. Obviously lean and in very good shape, but not imposingly muscular.

And I did see one bodybuilding guy in a supermarket a few years back.

Most guys just have average physiques. Some are better looking than others, some are slimmer, some have broader shoulders, but you hardly ever see anyone who looks like they could get on the front cover of Men's Health.

But, of course, you see many of these guys in relationships and with women. Because if women were looking for Chippendales, or only willing to accept Chippendales, they would be selecting themselves out of the gene pool. It would be literally impossible for me to have a girlfriend, because I'm never going to be the 'hunky' type. It's just not possible. Luckily, this isn't necessary.

I just find the emphasis on lifting to be weird, and not remotely reflected in the general public. I accept that doing exercise and lifting weights is generally good for you, but it just seems utterly weird and baseless that you have to do this to date women, or to be attractive to women.

flamingoinghome · 2018-08-18T15:55:41+00:00

There are two who come to mind. One is my friend's husband--he's a not-very-tall IT manager who's very vocally into feminism, is super-sentimental, is a giant geek and a straightedge (doesn't drink/do drugs), and if I had to describe his personality, I'd call him a "sweetie"--seriously one of the nicest and most giving dudes you'll ever meet. He gets laid like TILE--he and my friend are semi-open and he's never short of interested third parties, had tons of partners before he and my friend got together, plus he and my friend are crazy-happy in their marriage and had a baby roughly ten months after the wedding.

The other is....me. I'm a woman, and the things RP says I should find attractive I just....don't. I like shy, even somewhat submissive guys, can't maintain attraction to someone without an intellectual connection, and was left thoroughly "meh" about the "chadliest" guy I ever dated--a big strapping investment banker, who was also competitively ranked in a very masculine sport, and who I dumped after not too long for being kinda racist. The guys who I tend to be super-into, and put the most effort into "winning" are usually the types RP would call BBs--I'm just genuinely more excited/attracted/aroused by them.

tiger1296 · 2018-08-18T01:18:43+00:00

Only a certain type of woman acts like trp thinks. They go after the lowest of hoes, and bounce between them screaming awalt awalt

JW_2 · 2018-08-18T02:34:43+00:00

I feel like TRP goes for the lowest totem girls. Bottle girls, instagram hoes, party chicks etc. those are not the demographic I interact with. They tend to be very promiscuous or at least attention seeking, and then trp are surprised when the girl does something immature or slutty.

Uncommon_Sense_12345 · 2018-08-18T02:14:41+00:00

Me. I married at 18. Things were fine the first few years than I got the "I don't love you as much" bomb. I mean was this not supposed to be spoken by a wife to her husband and not the other way around?

So I must have been a fat harpie, right. Nope the only thing I did wrong was not want to go out any more because we were young and broke as hell. Seeing how according to TRP I'm the oldest teenager in the house, being financially responsible and not spending money on nights out when we were broke seemed the most logical adult move.

So strike one for the men are happy with a decent wife who gives them sex, which I did, and the womenz run only on feelz.

At that time I was around early 20s, fair skin, long blond hair so my hypergamy should have kicked in and I start the branchswing process seeing how I was pre-wall. Nope. Just went numb and cried but stayed.

We worked through it.

After this I gained weight up to 200 pounds over the years. In 2011 I completed a weightloss journey down to my marriage day weight of 132. At the time I was 41. Sounds like a middle-aged women getting ready to chase a Chad and dump off the 'ol hubby in a RP styled hypergamous branchswing.

Nope. Just decided one looks better middle-aged when not fat.

Still married and have been so through car repossessions, almost losing our home, seen my husband cry and comforted him, stood by him when he was not financially stable, and all this without a single attempted branchswing.

Oh, my husband was 180 at marriage and is now 290 and I love him more today than the day I married him. But the real RP question is what about the sex? Wish I could share but hubby says no because it is private.

passepar2t · 2018-08-18T16:43:54+00:00

I mean...

I'm a cherubic cheek'd manlet with shitty facial hair, below-average features and I'm skinnyfat. I rarely go to the gym these days and haven't been sticking with it. I'm also whiny, depressed, cowardly, talentless, broke and play too many videogames. An omega.

I should be an incel virgin. Nope, apparently some women found me attractive enough to fuck and two of them even told me that they're starting to fall for me. They'd dump me several months later, but still. And half of them weren't even hideous. In fact, three of them were straight up attractive.

This flies in the face of all red pill and black pill notions.

ATastefulNude · 2018-08-18T08:34:07+00:00

Me. I'm a post wall, promiscuous, UMC woman. I've never not had a sizable pool of quality men eager to commit to me. I've never cheated. I've never "traded up" one boyfriend for another. I've never been "pumped and dumped". I've had several long-term relationships and have never had a dead bedroom. I was way too busy in college to suck a million dicks. None of the tropes that TRP trots out for women have been even close to true for me or any of my peers.

Also my dad. He's a very quiet, passive man who has never attempted to dominate my mother. His top purpose in life has always been service to those around him. When it snowed, he spent all day walking to the grocery store to bring food to our elderly neighbors. He rarely raises his voice or attempts to exert control over others. He was actively involved in raising 5 children, including one that was not his biologically that he heroically rescued from an abusive home. He was a foster dad to 3 needy kids. He's gentle and kind. He and my mother are desperately in love after 40 years and I've never ever seen them fight.

I like men like my father.

songofmelancholy · 2018-08-18T00:40:48+00:00

RP acts like fat women can't get married and have happy sex lives with their husbands. or postwall beckys live miserable lives. or once an incel always an incel.

all not true. reality proves by 40 virtually everyone gets married.

trail22 · 2018-08-18T06:38:07+00:00

My friend's husband Im pretty sure has messed up ptsd from the iraq war. He doesnt seem to have a job. My friend never says a bad thing abotu him and is extremely protective of him. She makes most of the money in the house.

passwordgoeshere · 2018-08-18T01:26:28+00:00

I have a friend who is a filthy hippy feminist and he gets all kinds of women. His hair and clothes are rarely washed and he smells like butt cheese.

Somehow, women don't care. Like, classy women. One friend of mine is this wealthy editor and she went out with him several times. I have seen him in action. He is not a pickup artist and doesn't have any kind of game. He is just very friendly and sort of goofy.

All these RP guys worship the gym and talk about how much everyone needs to lift. It's garbage because this guy has never set foot in a gym. Some of you are probably thinking he is a 'natural alpha' but he is nothing close to alpha. The only really alpha trait he has is just seeming comfortable with himself, although if you talk to him, he'll tell you he isn't.

SkookumTree · 2018-08-18T01:45:13+00:00

All the abrasive women with "bitch" reputations - many of whom were quite unfeminine - who nonetheless found satisfying relationships with men.

yasee · 2018-08-18T20:29:45+00:00

Most of my male friends and family. They seem to want very different things out of life than what trp prescribes, plus most are beta as heck and still doing well romantically

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wigglyshark · 2018-08-19T18:03:19+00:00

Probably myself and my husband. We're married high school sweethearts, been together since we were sixteen. Both virgins when we met.

I was a virgin because I was an ugly duckling with massive body issues. I lost a ton of weight the summer before my senior year, improved my wardrobe and started wearing makeup for the first time, which definitely improved my confidence socially. Sexually, I still had MASSIVE hangups. It didn't even matter that I was receiving all kinds of attention from boys who didn't even know that I existed before because I was so invisible. No, I didn't immediately jump into the beds of Chads.

He was a virgin due to his traditional beliefs, but also because he was sort of made fun of. He was known as "the guy who cried in the middle of class one time". It's actually a really sad story; his parents are god awful and have made his life miserable since he was young. His paternal grandmother was the only relative he had who showed him love and kindness. Her health took a major decline and he knew she wouldn't last much longer. His parents CALLED THE SCHOOL to let him know that she had passed one day, but forced him to finish the day of school. He held it together for most of the day until the reality had hit him and he burst out crying in class. I don't think anyone knew what was going on, but from that point on, he was "the guy who cried in class in front of everybody". No, his reputation around his "show of emotion" didn't drive me away.

We met and got together within a week while I was still getting attention from guys that were "better" by other peoples standards; guys who were popular, on sports teams, etc. My husband was the shy gamer nerd in the media club, but we shared the same interest in video games, so he was the first guy to actually pique my interest. No, I wasn't swayed by pretty much everyone around me telling me to drop him because I was "out of his league". And no, he wasn't delegated to BB status where I made him jump through hoops so I would throw him a bone every now and then. I spent nearly every afternoon in his bed after school while his parents were working.

We've been through some major shit since leaving our hometown and doing everything on our own, but the experiences have strengthened our relationship and I never once questioned whether or not we would make it through it. Our first child together was born a month ago and the romance and passion we've always had is still there. After ten years of being together, I have no doubt that I will go to my grave having only ever loved and given myself to this man.

Nu_Guy · 2018-08-20T04:25:02+00:00

A lot of women uphold certain standards of morality and faithfulness. I don't see many women running around riding the CC and having sex with Chads only.

But at the same time, I will still live by AWALT, because I believe a Chad what she really wants, the same way I want a beautiful woman who is cool.

Who knows what opportunities and circumstances may make her falter from her morality and faithfulness.

newName543456 · 2018-08-18T13:54:31+00:00

Haven't seen any tbh. Every single one that on surface looked like a counter-example, upon closer inspection was actually confirming it.

Title	Q4ALL: What is the biggest counter-example you've seen in person against RP theory?
Author	LevelConcern
Upvotes	14
Comments	171
Date	August 17, 2018 11:54 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/9879ld/q4all_what_is_the_biggest_counterexample_youve/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4all-what-is-the-biggest-counter-example-youve.261118 https://theredarchive.com/post/261118

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