Q4BP: Which elements of TRP are actively damaging TO MEN?

Xemnas81 · 2015-11-09T06:41:48+00:00

We hear time and time again about how awful the views of women that TRP hold are. But even going through the TBP posts on 'why TRP is terrible for both...

[–]midnightvulpine10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

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You can't reliably give advice because every situation is different and one has to develop their own intuition when it comes to people.

I don't buy this for a second. There's a multibillion-dollar industry built around giving people advice for how to select potential partners -- literally every part of business related to human resources. Obviously you can take broad lessons from dealing with many people and predictively apply them to future people you meet. No, you won't perfectly predict everyone's behavior, but you'll be far better off than had you not even tried.

If you assume everyone is not to be trusted, how do you develop a proper sense of when to trust and when not to?

Trust is built over time and can't really be complete if the other person wields major power to screw you over. Nearly everyone starts of with some level of skepticism of new people.

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I don't care about their fiscal track record. I mean the actual use to getting people together track record.

Say you're paid an obscene amount to run a major company. You're skeptical about whether HR is worth having around. Wouldn't you do a little research to see how effective it is? If it wasn't effective, why wouldn't you cut an entire division of your company and save massive amounts of money? The incentives are too great for almost everyone to come to the same conclusion and for that conclusion to be wrong for any foreseeable reason.

The Batchelor has been very popular, but their track record for people who stay together is abysmal.

You're seriously comparing HR practices of billion dollar companies to the Bachelor? And reducing that comparison to "it's popular"?

Sure, that's more or less what RP teaches. Treat every woman as if she will take advantage of you at the first moment of weakness, essentially.

Bullshit. Show me the sidebar post where TRP says that.

[–]midnightvulpine0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think we lost each other in this conversation. I'm talking about the industry of giving people advice when it comes to dating. I'm curious about how effective it actually is when it comes to it's purpose. How fiscally solvent the industry is is irrelevant because if people are convinced they need the help or if it ultimately helps them, the industry will thrive. A lot of useless and/or harmful industries survive that way. That's why I brought up The Bachelor because it's a key example of a bad track record that is nonetheless successful. I don't know what HR departments have to do with any of this.

I don't read anything on RPs sidebar. I look at what the people on the sub say. That means more to me than cherry picked sidebar content because the ultimate result is what the people do with what they're given. I wonder how many of the sub's subscribers actually read that stuff.

[–]disposable_pants0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You're moving goalposts here. Originally, you made the broad statement:

You can't reliably give advice because every situation is different and one has to develop their own intuition when it comes to people.

I pointed out that yes, clearly you can give general advice about people and that no, everyone is not so different and unique that personal intuition is the only way to evaluate them. As an example I used HR practices and the affiliated industries, who exist primarily to create general advice for dealing with people they mostly haven't met.

Now you're saying that your original statement only applied to the industry of dating advice even though I was very clearly using a similar industry as an analogue for multiple comments now. You're shifting goalposts.

I don't know what HR departments have to do with any of this.

This makes me think you haven't actually read any of my comments.

I don't read anything on RPs sidebar.

Then you know about as much TRP as I could know about (for example) marketing if I did nothing but overhear a few conversations related to marketing.

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And yet you aren't disagreeing with it. You made contrived personal comments against squidracer. I merely pointed out that your accusations don't have much weight behind them, as you seem to be projecting. Were you debating him when you were being disparaging? Were you debating me when you accused me of following you around?

If anything, I am debating. In this case, I'm debating the position that your comment has no merit. I bear you no personal animosity whatsoever, that's just more paranoia or egotism on your part. But I will always point out when you are being a massive hypocrite or are just outright wrong.

But really, you aren't special, tai. I do that for plenty of other people on this sub too. The fact that you find it a personal attack kind of shows that you aren't objectively looking at your own behavior and how it lines up with the group you villainize. Which makes your "toxic egoism" flair that much more ironic.

[–]taiboworks2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]probably_quite_drunk0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

you could have actually responded to the topic but instead you went on with your old regurgitated narc/borderline tirade.

You mean like you do against RP'ers every single week? Again, I'm only pointing out your hypocrisy. If you chose to debate in good faith instead of saying that other PPD members were incapable of being wanted by younger women, that might make what you say slightly credible.

at least try to veil your anger

Show me where I said anything angry.

debate the actual topic at hand

The topic at hand wasn't about squidracer attracting women. The topic is about TRP being damaging. So you have this whole "do as I say, not as I do" mentality that is simply intellectually dishonest. It's fascinating to see in action.

this subreddit is about debating abstract topics not getting personal as no one here knows each other

And yet you choose to accuse 130,000+ people of having antisocial/narc personality disorders virtually every week despite knowing none of them and admitting that you are unqualified to make any kind of diagnosis as you have no education or experience in clinical psychology.

So again, I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy. That may not always be relevant to the topic at hand, but it's relevant to your comment in that topic thread. If you cannot discern macro from micro, then that's another problem entirely.

[–]taiboworks1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

red pill is a group not a person. criticizing the character of red pill as a group is perfectly within the rules here. if i were to call you names (narc, borderline, mental, etc.), that would be a personal attack, i.e. against the rules. do you understand that distinction? if you identify with red pill such that you feel personally attacked when i criticize red pill, that's your own issue.

The topic at hand wasn't about squidracer attracting women.

squidrace said "I've always dated younger, but after a certain age didn't even want to deal with 18 year olds". i responded that i think the issue, as i stated, is more likely he didn't want to deal with the 18yr olds he could attract (as most 18yr olds wouldn't have anything to do with someone much older so it's absurd for an older male to emphasize his dis-preference for too young when in reality that's not much of an option for him).

And yet you choose to accuse 130,000+ people of having antisocial/narc personality disorders virtually every week despite knowing none of them and admitting that you are unqualified to make any kind of diagnosis as you have no education or experience in clinical psychology.

anyone that really buys into core red pill tenets is on the antisocial/narc personality style spectrum (which is different from a personality disorder, though certainly a smaller number of red pillers likely have npd and aspd) in the same way being pro life puts someone on the social conservative spectrum. how many of those 130k subcribers buy into core red pill tenets, i can't say. i subscribe there and i don't buy into core red pill concepts. do you buy into core red pill concepts?

just as red pillers can attack, ridicule, disparage (accurately or inaccurately) blue pillers or women (as a group), anyone can do that to red pillers here. have you taken issue with any red pillers doing that to blue pillers or women? why not? does that make you a hypocrite? intellectually dishonest? the only thing that would be unfair, by the rules of this sub, would be to attack you personally. so, let me know if i do that, otherwise stick to group critique (red pill, blue pill, men, women) as this subreddit is about debating, deconstructing, criticizing red pill, blue pill, and gender, not getting into personal attacks.

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[–]PetticoatRuled 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

>what is so bad about TRP for males.

its a community that brainwashes its members so completely they have difficulty seeing outside of it. Such as the men involved with the coffee shop scandal. It took being outed to make them see what they'd become.
likewise, it has the potential to ruin careers if the views of individual members become known.
it instructs its members that the behavior of their girlfriends/women they're having sex with is an important measure of the masculinity of the man. If a girlfriend/wife cheats, then he's instantly emasculated. It's a recipe for disaster - him lashing out in rage or falling into a suicidal depression.
some of its more established members are like LOTR's Wormtongue. They're in the business of disseminating hatred against women. These men feast on the angst/confusion/resentment of the young members and encourage them to become bitter. The wormtongues use the younger ones to quench their thirst to do harm to women. The younger ones are just witless pawns in this game. The wormtongues don't want the younger ones to have happiness in relationships because they stuffed up their own lives and became bitter.
the wormtongues have the younger ones believing childish notions, such as "women hate trp because it turns betas into alphas and women won't be able to tell the true alphas from the fake ones!" I can't even begin to explain how nutty this is. Trust me, it's nutty. Men are going to look back at trp and wonder how they got caught up in it and they'll feel taken for a ride.
trp has a stack of weird beliefs about women, which will make it hard for trp men to form lasting relationships in the future.
trp is about self-improvment to get more sex, rather than self-improvement to do great things. Trp seems like a race to the bottom.

[–]Xemnas81[S] 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

in what ways are RP men brainwashed?
What is the coffee ship scandal? Have not heard of this oe.
That's just a threat as part of Orwellian thought policing. Says more about society than problems RP causes to men.
Where did you get that idea? 'She was never yours, it was just your turn' means you don't control her, AWALT, every woman is likely to leave you, just focus on being the best you can be (outcome independence/frame/abundance mentality)
I enjoy the slippery words of ECs. I did it a little on a previous forum I was on until the mods perma-banned me. I try not to hang on the forum too much,m for the same reason I should wean off PPD; it's a time-sink which leads to rumination, avoidance and lack of action, experience or growth. However, I fail to see how they genuinely do not care for the young men on the sub.
This is again just a threat relating to 'just get it' http://therationalmale.com/2012/08/22/just-get-it/
such as? What weird beliefs do yu mean? I mean I can list lots of things TRP believes about women, and feminism and society, but let's hear it from you. (Yes, I have had a relationship damaged by these views, but que sera, sera)
This I a god point, and another reasonI stay away from the sub quite a bit, as well as avoid field reports. It should be noted that The Power of Now is a popular 'redpill' book which can help deal with this-mindfulness.

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If you believe the nonsense that childish, borderline abusive behaviour from women is "female nature" or "shit tests" or that "all women are like that", you're setting yourself up to be accepting of it because it's just the way things are. You're not likely to take steps to effectively end the behaviour - or simply leave the idiot for someone who's doesn't do that shit in the first place - you learn to just end up playing the same game from the other side.

Hmm good points. Well I consider Mark Manson to provide good purple pill advice and he talks a lot about how to filter out blatantly manipulative women. The common theme in his advice is: if you keep attracting shit, best look under your shoe. Ergo, you're probably a little manipulative. He points out e.g. that there is a reason Nice Guys tend to end up with narcissistic drama queens; NGs are passive aggressive and manipulative at the core with the covert contract of Captain Save a Ho'.

This is different to women who shit test; everyone shit tests to a degree, consciously or unconsciously, covertly or overtly.

http://markmanson.net/manipulative-relationships

It would help to see what you consider as

childish, borderline abusive behaviour

such as?

Teaching people that manipulation and petty mind games are ways to solve issues

such as?

that you're not allowed to show emotion or let your guard down

you're taking the advice literally, it's referring to emotional vomit. Rollo also covers vulnerability here. The core aspects of RP vulnerability are:

a) vulnerability must be communicated with mastery of emotions. Too much at once and it's emotional vomit

http://markmanson.net/vulnerability

http://markmanson.net/power-in-vulnerability

b) vulnerability for the sake of validation is not attractive, it's beta Game and a form of beta identification. If vulnerability is attractive, it's when it comes out naturally over the course of relations and outcome independent (not needy). You cannot negotiate desire

http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/02/beta-game/

http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/04/identity-crisis-2/

http://therationalmale.com/2011/08/25/the-desire-dynamic/

http://therationalmale.com/2014/11/23/vulnerability/

c) vulnerability is a beta comfort trait, it inspires affection and security, it makes her like you but it does not arouse her or inspire lust. Too much will result in a shift along the maternal: erotic spectrum where she identifies with you as a child, at which point attraction is dead and you're likely to be friendzoned

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2a8yu0/on_ltr_game_and_positive_beta_behavior/

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1vajq2/reminder_she_is_not_your_shoulder_to_cry_on/

http://therationalmale.com/2012/09/10/men-in-love/

d) knowing all of this, vulnerability is not an excuse to lose frame or SMV. A low SMV man being vulnerable will not be as attractive as a high SMV man doing so-for the same reason women want to be dominated by a high status bad boy who opens up only to her

(Manson Models, C3: %The Power of Vulnerability and The Gift of Truth)

that it's healthy to treat your partner like a child or a subordinate... these are all pretty damaging to men and the women they end up with.

This last one's only really damaging to women and a lot of BP misunderstands the purpose of it.

[–]ianturpiesmoustache4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Hmm good points.

Thanks, it's always nice to hear that on this sub. :)

The common theme in his advice is: if you keep attracting shit, best look under your shoe.

Now this statement I agree with, but the rest of your paragraph I take issue with. I certainly see TRP's advice being more openly and purposefully manipulative than "nice guys". They glamourise dark triad behaviours and encourage deception and manipulation be used to "correct" or "train" your partner to act how you want, regardless of their own feelings on the matter. Not that this sort of thing is specific to RPers alone - I'm sure there are "nice guys" and "nice girls" who do this shit, too - but the difference as I see it is that TRP flat out endorses it, whereas the majority of society sees it as just plain shitty.

This is different to women who shit test; everyone shit tests to a degree, consciously or unconsciously, covertly or overtly.

My problem with the term is that it can be interpreted to mean just about any communication or action that the partner doesn't like. Merely expressing yourself as a woman is often considered a "shit test" by RPers, which colours your reaction and, again, ends with misunderstanding and damaging responses rather than a worthwhile solution.

It would help to see what you consider as childish, borderline abusive behaviour

As it relates to women: being emotionally manipulative for their own gain, viewing men as a means to an end (ie, financial gain), not being supportive or understanding of men's emotions or emotional state, withholding affection to punish/make a point/elicit a particular reaction, using pregnancy/children to trap or otherwise manipulate men... aside from pregnancy, none of these are specific to women, but they're certainly not uncommon for (some) women to engage in.

Teaching people that manipulation and petty mind games are ways to solve issues

Such as dread game, not being honest about how you feel or why you feel that way (things like "amused mastery" and "holding frame" are not inherently bad things, but they're often used to the detriment of any kind of meaningful communication), being unaccepting or controlling of certain normal behaviours (having male friends, wanting to go on holiday without your partner, etc), going "radio silence" on your partner to punish/make a point/elicit a particular response, not listening to your partner because they don't know what they want/what's best for them, etc.

I won't go through each of your points for vulnerability, as this response is long enough as it is, but:

vulnerability must be communicated with mastery of emotions.

That's not how vulnerability or emotions work, though. It's not helpful to essentially tell someone "you should suppress or deny your emotions apart from this very narrow list of times/situations when it becomes acceptable, and then it's only for the comfort of women". Men's emotions are just as valid as women's, and they should be encouraged to honestly feel, recognise and healthily deal with them.

vulnerability is a beta comfort trait, it inspires affection and security, it makes her like you but it does not arouse her or inspire lust.

Affection and security can and do arouse and inspire lust, these things are not mutually exclusive. I mean, obviously not in the immediate - I'm not about to jump on a guy's dick when he's crying or upset - but being able to open up to your partner can definitely lead to increased intimacy.

This last one's only really damaging to women and a lot of BP misunderstands the purpose of it.

No, it's damaging to men who try this shit on their partners who are not into childish games and are not submissive/have no intention of being your subordinate, or are attempting to get into a relationship with such a woman. Do you think these women are going to stick around if someone pulls this on them? What on earth for?

As I understand it, the purpose is to get what you want from the relationship, not because you think it's somehow good for your partner. If not, feel free to correct me.

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you're setting yourself up to be accepting of it because it's just the way things are

TRP teaches you to recognize the way things are and to not fight what's near-impossible to change. After that it shows you how to achieve your goals within these constraints and puts the responsibility for success squarely on your shoulders.

You're not likely to take steps to effectively end the behaviour - or simply leave the idiot for someone who's doesn't do that shit in the first place

Ever seen the term "next" on TRP?

Teaching people that manipulation and petty mind games are ways to solve issues

Everyone manipulates everyone. Ever try to convince your friends to go to a different bar on the weekend? That's manipulation. There's nothing inherently bad about manipulation.

that you're not allowed to show emotion or let your guard down

In what percentage of situations is it beneficial to keep control of your emotions, and in what percentage of situations is it beneficial to lose control of them?

that it's healthy to treat your partner like a child or a subordinate

Are you mean to children? Are you mean to subordinates? Or do you respect them, look out for them, help them, and have fun with them, but ultimately have the ability to put your foot down when needed?

[–]ianturpiesmoustache1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

TRP teaches you to recognize the way things are and to not fight what's near-impossible to change.

It teaches you what it perceives to be reality, and disregards any evidence to the contrary.

Everyone manipulates everyone.

That's what manipulative people think, yes.

In what percentage of situations is it beneficial to keep control of your emotions, and in what percentage of situations is it beneficial to lose control of them?

Not only is that impossible to answer, but it's besides the point. Emotions don't work that way - you either feel them or you don't. You can be honest about what you feel, or you can hide it in some attempt to keep the upper hand.

Are you mean to children? Are you mean to subordinates? Or do you respect them, look out for them, help them, and have fun with them, but ultimately have the ability to put your foot down when needed?

But women are neither children nor your subordinates. They're exactly as capable of making decisions, looking out for and helping as you are, and they don't need someone to "put their foot down" when they think the women folk are getting out of line.

[–]disposable_pants0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It teaches you what it perceives to be reality, and disregards any evidence to the contrary.

TRP isn't any more biased to believe in its own ideas than any other school of thought. Confirmation bias is present everywhere.

That's what manipulative people think, yes.

Instead of dodging the point, ask yourself how the situation I outlined isn't manipulation. Your friend wanted to go somewhere else, you talked to them, and now they want to go where you want to go. How is that not manipulation?

Not only is that impossible to answer

It's not hard to make an educated guess. Is it useful to break down crying at work or school? What about when you're getting groceries? Clearly there are many situations where becoming emotional isn't a great idea; it's easy to estimate what percentage of situations are like this.

You can be honest about what you feel, or you can hide it in some attempt to keep the upper hand.

Everyone does this. Unless you have zero filter between your brain, what comes out of your mouth, and your actions, you're hiding your emotions. Why do you do this?

they don't need someone to "put their foot down" when they think the women folk are getting out of line.

You misunderstand. This isn't altruism; it's self-interest. I'm don't care whether they "need" someone to put their foot down, whatever "need" means in this context. All I care about is whether I'm developing relationships where I can enforce firm boundaries (I'll do this, but I won't do that) or whether I'm stuck with relationships where I'll get walked all over.

[–]ianturpiesmoustache0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

TRP isn't any more biased to believe in its own ideas than any other school of thought.

It's literally based on a bunch of opinions, and very little to nothing scientific. It is more biased than a lot of things, actually.

Instead of dodging the point, ask yourself how the situation I outlined isn't manipulation. Your friend wanted to go somewhere else, you talked to them, and now they want to go where you want to go. How is that not manipulation?

Oh, I wasn't dodging the point, I just ignored that point because that's not what anyone thinks of or means when they're talking about manipulation.

Manipulation isn't openly and honestly discussing options until someone chooses one. You can keep trying to make manipulation look as innocent as all that, if you like, but it doesn't make it so.

Is it useful to break down crying at work or school? What about when you're getting groceries?

Do those situations have anything to do with being in a relationship? Will they change the level of trust and openness you have with someone you're sharing your life with?

You misunderstand.

No, I don't. A relationship is not just about one person, so whether you putting your foot down is a good thing for you is not in question, and has no bearing on whether it should be done or it's a good idea.

There's a world of options between "I get to put my foot down and she doesn't" and "I'm being walked over".

[–]disposable_pants-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's literally based on a bunch of opinions, and very little to nothing scientific.

You can say the exact thing about nearly every branch of philosophy, many management styles, most coaching strategies, and a whole host of other schools of thought. Not everything is going to be studied with scientific rigor before it's applied; in the real world, people need something that works (or appears to work) now.

Manipulation isn't openly and honestly discussing options until someone chooses one.

You're not waiting for "someone" to choose an option in my example -- you're convincing your friends to go to X bar. You're trying to get the outcome you want. If your definition of manipulation is anything that's not an open and honest conversation until someone chooses an option, then by your own definition influencing your friends to go to a new bar is manipulative. So what's manipulation? And why is it bad?

Another example is a salary negotiation. You aren't waiting for "someone" to come up with a figure; both sides want what's best for them, and it's a whole lot less open and honest than discussing what bar you want to check out. Who's manipulating whom in this scenario? And why is it bad?

Do those situations have anything to do with being in a relationship? Will they change the level of trust and openness you have with someone you're sharing your life with?

Again, dodging the question. And yes, those scenarios absolutely impact a personal relationship with someone. Do you want to be in a relationship with someone who might break down crying at work or in school at any time? Do you want to constantly play psychologist? Do you want to have to deal with a massive array of emotional outbursts on a regular basis?

A relationship is not just about one person, so whether you putting your foot down is a good thing for you is not in question, and has no bearing on whether it should be done or it's a good idea.

If a relationship isn't good for me, I don't want to be in it. Why would anyone want to be in a relationship where they're on the losing end? What's good for you is not just a part of discussing good relationships; it's a prerequisite.

There's a world of options between "I get to put my foot down and she doesn't" and "I'm being walked over".

Where did I say she can't put her foot down in some places, too? Everyone has personal boundaries, and everyone should be able to enforce those. If two people are both inflexible in the same areas the relationship might not work out, but if they're inflexible about different things there's no reason they can't be perfectly compatible.

[–]TheKickboxingGuy 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

It caters to a group of men who are disenfranchised, alone, and oftentimes emotionally brittle [Lonely victim]. It tells these men that very little was their fault, and their lack of success/happiness was caused by feminism/feminized society not giving them an honest strategy to succeed [demonization of feminism/ "Your suffering is by design."] They then open a "bro" community where guys can be "themselves," as if it's inherently male to talk like they are unintelligent. Differing opinions aren't allowed [Excluding the enemy] and anger is encouraged. The page is flooded with field reports of getting back at women or showing the ineptitude of betas [Revenge porn/fantasies].

Altogether, this creates a culture of emotionally strained men who now believe they are fighting a culture war against women, betas, and feminism. They believe they have finally found a group of people that are looking out for their best interests, and will act/say nearly anything to remain validated within that community.

Then there is the problem of the mods, especially the older ones. They believe they have created something that's only an information sharing network. It's a place for dudes to hang out and discuss strategy. No, that's what they WANT it to be. But when your target market are incel-types ad the sexually unvalidated desperate for a sense of belonging that isn't what it WILL be.

The mods also have this insane belief that TRP shouldn't tone down it's language, not for anyone or anything. They believe that TRP exists in some kind of fantasy bubble on the internet, and that repeatedly telling someone to get mad in an environment of anger and vitriol isn't going to have some sort of affect on their real life mentality.

TRP is going to grow. I guarantee it. And I also guarantee it is going to have some SERIOUS negative affects on men who become devotees of the system. The same way you've got psycho radical feminists screaming their heads off blaming the Patriarchy for everything that moves, blaming men for their inability to get laid or be found attractive, TRP will create the male equivalent. This group of angry, dejected losers, furious with women and Feminism, unable to see their own insanity or hypocrisy.

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I had that list in mind when making this post, thanks. See, most of that is how it's bad for women, under the guise of being bad for men.

EMSK: Manipulative abusive women are bad, that doesn't make it OK to be a manipulative abusive man
2nd post: I improved myself with redpill and girls liked me. I then became a misogynist because of redpill and thenmy girlfriend stopped liking me. Now I improve myself without blaming women for it.
TRP kills relationships: Post after post where 'the marriage has ended, it's all TRP's fault for being so misogynist! They didn't consider much that maybe the relationship was already failing. So here definition of bad for men=makes him treat women and children poorly, or not serve women and children.
makes it very difficult for members to have genuine relationships as it encourages stupid passive-aggressive shit like "negging" and "dread game" rather than being straightforward like mature adults

Of all the Game aspects you could have picked out, negging is one of te most juvenile and rarely used outside of sleazy hookups, especially in LTRs. As for straightforward...you're not familiar with power talk?

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At what point does all that anecdotal evidence become real enough to be worthy of note?

I don't know. When do my anecdotal evidence about non-masculine men in happy relationships become worthy of note?

Are there any studies of the colour of the sky? "Is the sky really blue? A systematic study of the skies colour spectrum." by Prof. Idiot One and Dr. Moron Two.

Are you actually this ignorant? Or is it a joke? It's due to a phenomenon known as Rayleigh scattering. I think the sky is actually more towards the violet side of the spectrum (short wavelengths), but the human eye is better equipped to detect blue so it looks blue to us. More importantly, are you fucking retarded? Did you pass high school science? Maybe you should stay away from topics you don't know shit about, so you don't make an ass of yourself.

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[–]CarkudoThe original opinionated omega4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (40 children) | Copy Link

One example of what?

Beyond saying that it's toxic, feminism does nothing to combat traditional ideas of masculinity. Feminists still date tall men, strong men, macho men, MASCULINE men. They shame men by calling them weak, emotional, impotent etc., that is by implying that those men don't conform to traditional masculine gender roles. When you call attention to that, at best everyone will nod and agree that "something needs to be done" and "virgin shaming must be stopped" but somehow it never goes beyond nodding, whereas lots of effort and money is thrown into fighting against traditional female gender roles.

If you disagree that this is how male gender roles are addressed by feminism and the world at large, then I don't want to take this further. If you agree with the statements but disagree with my interpretation, then we can have a discussion.

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Lets pretend "hypergamy" is a thing. You forgot eastern Europe

I would like an explanation for a moment: why do you guys worship eastern European women when they more easily work to fit the women hate stereotypes you guys have including "hypergamy" now, I know fuck all Americans British who aren't my own relatives, but I know eastern Europeans, hundreds of them.

They also have waaaaaaay higher standards for men than Irish women do on average, unless you have money and a good citizenship. Then some of them are willing to compromise

I have a friend, a computer programmer who was here for a few years and went home a few years ago

He's nice, quite handsome, but not tall, not muscular, his job doesn't pay that well at home, he is not macho.

Single for 4 years in Russia. Except for an ill-fated reconciliation with an old ex girlfriend that did not end in sex or particularly pleasantly (she was a manipulative bitch to start with but had since become a fucking psychologist, he wouldn't listen, myself and other friends were proven right, the end), a drunken 18 year old party girl which was his first ever experience of a one night stand and the only sex he has had in 4 years, the 3rd was a girl who agreed to be his girlfriend if he bought her stuff which he was advised against and took the advice and a handful of dates with people who went nowhere

He is saving all he can to come back to Ireland.

Now, I don't buy into your bullshit I have met a roughly equal number of male and female complete total and utter bastards in my life ( slightly higher male numbers) and the one thing I can say to you is that being a "cunt" is an equal opportunity endeavor And a "nice guy" is far more often a passive aggressive condescending cunt boil than he is a genuine nice guy. Genuine nice guys like genuine virgins don't so aggressively market it.

[–]Xemnas81[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks for sharing.

As Carkudo can tell you, Russia is pretty fucking hypergamous and proud of it. Like Open Hypergamy Level 10, as opposed to US' 8 and UK's 7.

Most of EE-Scandinavia, Romania and the like-is at a 4-5 level. Also, although the women expect mnasculine men, they return it by having a 'feminine' (read: not stuck up) attitude, and, in line with TRP's aspirations, take better care o themselves.

Now, I don't buy into your bullshit I have met a roughly equal number of male and female complete total and utter bastards in my life ( slightly higher male numbers) and the one thing I can say to you is that being a "cunt" is an equal opportunity endeavor And a "nice guy" is far more often a passive aggressive condescending cunt boil than he is a genuine nice guy. Genuine nice guys like genuine virgins don't so aggressively market it.

If you think most Nice Guys go around saying "I am a nice guy why are womyn not having sex with me" then ehhh. Can you give some examples of this passive aggression.

[–]AprilMaria2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

thats fairly bulshit, although Scandinavian women arent stuck up (its actually really nice to be friends with Finish and Dutch girls, guys also) but by sweet holy Christ a lot of eastern European women are full of it. I mean the shit i have seen you wouldnt believe. My boyfriend is Czech and his female family members and friends wives and girlfriends would leave you in fucking awe. Of course there are nice ones but they are arty hippy types and not what men mean when they talk about wanting an eastern european woman.

most of these cultures are far more sexually open shall we say.

If you want me to elaborate i will but i would rather not because it would hurt peoples feelings

the polish are ok though although they come in extremes too.

They dont, there are genuine nice guys who are genuinely nice im lucky enough to know plenty but i also have this one "nice guy" "friend" who rings me at 3 in the morning pissed drunk after getting chucked out of the club "why dont women like meeeee!!" he acts like everyone owes him something but hes primeraly a 6ft stack of fuck up, no one owes him anything, in fact he owes a lot of people a lot the lads only let him go out for the night with them out of pity because hes not nice to them either and would throw any one of them under a bus for his own means.

[–]octopus_sushiBlue Pill7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

In practice, they are much less likely to date or be attracted to men who don't conform to it, and when a guy asks about this, it's interpreted as complaining (well it might be but anyway) and then he's shamed as above.

See, I was asking for sources about stuff like this. You need to back this shit up.

Are you talking about niceguy tier shit? Because I can tell you right now, that they're not being made fun of for "nonconformity". Chivalry and being "nice to women" isn't the opposite of misogyny. It's part of it. It's a sexist idea that follows traditional gender roles. They're not being "shamed" because they don't follow gender roles. They're being "shamed" because they act like entitled (women should like me) and egoistical (because I'm nice). You don't deserve special treatment for having basic manners. Fuck you.

[–]Xemnas81[S] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'll come back with sources soon, hopefully/ Until then you can take my claims with a pinch of salt.

Chivalry and being "nice to women" isn't the opposite of misogyny. It's part of it.

It depends what qualifies as 'niceguy tier shit'. You're assuming I'm talking about 'be nice to women=GET LAID' . I'm talking about situations where e.g. you offered help, then she said she doesn't need it...but a few weeks later she holds it against you, saying why didn't you help, ffs man up dude. So you go to the sub and ask why she's just called herself strong and independent yet expected you to still be her knight in shining armour, and they can't find a way to project it back onto you, so they strawman your story as being a Nice Guy who just wanted to get laid.

Also, 'women should like me'-I would hope that I would be treated in a friendly pleasant manner for having good manners. As it is I typically get condescension. I never got thjis growing up, now I've found I'm aspie, it makes sense that I probably came across as socially awkward. By contrast, guys who in hindsight have Game (Ccky+Funny, push/pull, amused mastery, agree+amplify etc.) had lots of female friends and usually a girlfriend.

[–]ValleyFever101 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]octopus_sushi5 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Pretty common feminist rhetoric. Here is the wikipedia entry on it.

Within hostile sexism (HS) and benevolent sexism (BS), the three subcomponents serve distinct functions. Dominative paternalism (HS) suggests that men should control women, while protective paternalism (BS) implies that men should protect and care for women. Competitive gender differentiation (HS) bolsters men's self-confidence (e.g., men are superior to women). Complementary gender differentiation (BS) places importance on traditional gender roles for women (e.g., mother & wife) and assumes that men depend on women to fulfill these roles. Lastly, heterosexual hostility (HS) views women as sexual objects for men's pleasure and promotes the fear of women's capacity to manipulate men by engaging in or withholding sexual activity. Intimate heterosexuality (BS) romanticizes women as having sexual purity and views romantic intimacy as necessary to complete a man.

Just Google benevolent sexism. Here is a psych study.

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That's because BP has the normal view on what defines a macho.

You spin it around to make it fit your own doctrine.

Per definition a macho is loud, dominant, aggressive and possibly abusive. Macho is spanish for "tough guy". Just google it for once.

adjective

masculine in an overly assertive or aggressive way

noun

a man who is aggressively proud of his masculinity

The BP version is in the dictionary. While your version:

When we mean it's handsome, athletic, tall, socially dominant in a non-imposing way (passive dread), high status, confident, etc.

isn't macho in any way. Sure a lot of macho men also have these traits, but these traits alone doesn't make you a macho.

Macho per definition and in the regular word usage is someone that strives to be as masculine as possible.

This includes

strives to be as tough as possible and is obnoxiously proud of it

repulsion of all feminine traits in men

feels superior to women and sensitive, metrosexual or homosexual men

never shows emotions

except for a handshake any contact with other males is considered homosexual and thus bad

thinks getting into fights is something to be proud of

boasts with his car, accessoires, gun and booze

danger is exciting and violence is manly

generall hypermasculinity

[–]autourbanbot1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Here's the Urban Dictionary definition of Macho :

Macho, An adjective.

An exaggerated masculine attribute, or expression, or characteristic, or trait of a masculine Man. the attribute is natural, and has always existed, but only came into our culture and language on mass, as the result of body building, and our media in the 70's and 80's. The new interest in body building had produced a new form of masculinity, that had become very popular in porn and film.

Most macho attributes are positive, as they are natural to masculine men, even if not visible on the outside.

These attributes are the naturally occurring attributes of masculinity that are exaggerated, and are sometimes put on to attract a women; similar to how some women put on or play up their femininity to attract a man: but sometimes they occur naturally; acting tough, getting into fights, lifting stuff, ect.

The feminine equal to this does not have it's own adjective, and is simply called *femininity(?) but is the same in outward expression, and is the exaggerated traits and attributes of femininity, some times put on to attract a man, but sometimes expressed naturally; acting helpless, dumb, sexually aroused, ect.(better examples required) *May not be accurate.

Both the Macho traits and the feminine equal, are typically superficial, sometimes expressed simply do to the physical structure of the person;A heavily muscled man will have a macho walk, and a slim man wont have a macho walk.

A man can be masculine, but is not necessarily macho, because he lacks the physical form.

He walks around from building to building with his coffee cup, all macho!

He is a macho man.

DB didn't mean to look macho; because DB has big arm muscles, and walks that way naturally.

The macho man walked to the ring.

He was weak, but acted like a macho man, by trying to lift the car to make her notice him.

^about ^| ^{flag for glitch} ^| ^{Summon: urbanbot, what is something?}

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Did you read any of that beside the title?

Jesus, does anyone do research around here?

She didn't dislike them because they were "feminized":

It’s not that I don’t want to be with a man who respects me, values consent, or is conscious of the various gender-based imbalances in the world today.

When it comes to dating and relating, I don’t care who opens the door for whom, or who picks up the bill.

She disliked them because most of them are not actually feminists, they just pretend to be to get laid.

For every male feminist horror story I have lived, I’ve been told a dozen more by equally-frustrated female friends

men [who] hamfistedly wield their limited knowledge of women’s empowerment to look for sex partners and girlfriends

men who use the term “feminist” as either bait or an alter-ego, assuming that their opt-in respect for women will entitle them to legions of adoring lovers

And now, some horror stories:

There was the chap who invited me to an event, not so much as a plus one but as a testing ground for his ribald, sexist one-liners. After each remark he would look to me, gauging my reaction to see exactly how much of his cheap and dirty humour he could unleash while still passing the feminist litmus test.

I had lunch with a man whose openness about sex and sexuality impressed me until I declined his offer for an afternoon quickie – his response made it clear that his feminism had no room for my apparent frigidity.

Then there was the gentleman who messaged me every second day to ask my fem-pinion on everything from vajazzling to Lena Dunham’s memoir. When I finally asked him to cool his jets, he responded furiously that I should be grateful for his incessant questions and I was lucky a man wanted to hear my opinion at all.

[–]SunnyFoxesRed for life, love & sex0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I did read it... but you are not getting the point.

These "male feminists" have being told that they are cool, by feminists. They have been recruited by feminist, that make them believe that if they support feminism, they will be liked by feminists, that they are doing the right thing.

They are and have been lied to, by feminists. They have been lead to believe that they are supporting equality for all, not just women, even equality for him. And if he doesn't support feminism he is a sexist pig, a bad guy, a terrible person, a misogynist.

And anyway, feminism is so confusing that no one really knows what they support anymore. So these poor male feminist are trying to learn an ideology that they can never, never, never succeed with. Sex positive or sex negative. Slut or empowered women. All men are rapists. Everything a man does is rapey or sexual assault. Not all feminist are like that. Not all feminist believe that. Not all feminists are okay with that. But just be yourself. Is this degrading? Is that offensive? Sitting down comfortably is problematic. You can't approach a woman unless she wants it and you should always approach first. Do you pay for dates or not. The list of feminist contradictions is endless, I could go on and on.

These poor male feminists have been set up, set up to fail no matter what. Walk on eggshells male feminist... sit down, shut up, women are talking here. There that's a good male ally. Gender roles are ikky... you can toootalllyyy be more feminine. ~~But I won't fuck you, because ewww that's so ikky! - I want a real masculine man for sex.~~ But we can totally be friends where you do things for me for free and if you complain about it, your are scum.

Every male feminist is the enemy because every male is an enemy. There is no win for these poor guys and they don't know it. Hell, he can't even just find a women attractive and want to have sex with her... the sexist pig is problematic. Feminist tell these poor guys they have to do more for a woman's love. More chores, more help, more romance, always more of something, but never any love and definitely never any sex. Eewwww!

This very article illustrates that perfectly. She can't even be bothered to help the poor male feminist out with his poor understanding of the dynamics at play, when she is a feminist making all these new rules for these poor guys. She is going to date/fuck real men even if they are sexist pigs.

But let's ignore all that... "male feminist", just like "nice guys" are creepy. Eewwww. But no, they are never being given any mixed signals that are confusing the shit out of them and they just need to "get it" already. It is all the creeps fault.

I just want to tell these poor male feminists... "Dude, no don't believe all the bs feminists tell you. None of it will ever work because they will always be moving the goal post. Hit the gym. Learn game. Be confident. Treat them like shit. Reject them and go for real women. Never ever do anything "nice" again, you have used up your lifetime supply of kindness and respect and concern. It is okay and normal to want to have sex with attractive woman, but not ugly feminists. No, you're not a rapist just for being a man. Come to the dark side, we ~~have cookies~~ get laid."

She didn't dislike them because they were "feminized"

Yes, she totally ~~hamstered~~ rationalized that away... It is totally all their fault for not getting it right, when she is the one making the rules. They just need to "get it" already!

She disliked them because most of them are not actually feminists, they just pretend to be to get laid.

Yes, no confusion about what a feminist is at all... These male feminists must get it right, today I'm sex positive, sex negative was so yesterday! And so say all feminists. How can she tell that they aren't "real" feminists if a feminist can believe anything they want to? Because I have a hard time telling a feminist from a crazy person.

I very much doubt that they were pretending to want to get laid. I think that these poor male feminist are seriously confused about how to go about it and are sincerely trying their best with women that are leading them on and don't want to have sex with them so they keep moving the goal post. But I know that feminists will always take the view that men are just scummy sexist pigs and only ever pretend just to get laid, even the "sex positive" ones.

No guy would pretend to be a feminist just to try get laid with man-hating ~~bi-lesbians-trans~~ fat feminists unless he was a colossal idiot. Seriously... NO!

[–]octopus_sushiBlue Pill0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

They believe that if they support feminism, they will be liked by feminists

You shouldn't support feminism so you can be "liked". You should support feminism because it's the right thing to do, and it is beneficial for everyone. Supporting a movement so as to be "liked" is stupid and disingenuous.

And anyway, feminism is so confusing that no one really knows what they support anymore.

I mean, if you have average IQ and the patience to actually read shit, it is not confusing at all.

So these poor male feminist are trying to learn an ideology that they can never, never, never succeed with.

Sex positive, why not both, some men are rapists but a lot of women experience sexual assault, doing sexual things without consent is sexual assault, feminism encompass a wide variety of beliefs, be considerate of others, you can approach anyone but leave them alone if they ask to be left alone, and you can pay for dates if you want but do not feel obligated to. See? Was that so hard? Most of it almost sounds like common sense.

insert tons of strawmen

This very article illustrates that perfectly. She can't even be bothered to help the poor male feminist out with his poor understanding of the dynamics at play

The questions weren't the problem. The problem was that when she asked him to stop, he said she should feel grateful that he even listens. Why should she be grateful? It's basic manners in a relationship to listen to one another. Is she also supposed to be grateful when he uses the bathroom by himself? How about when he manages to wipe his own ass? Maybe she should give him a gold star.

It is totally all their fault for not getting it right

She didn't criticize them for not getting it right. She criticized them for being disingenuous and acting entitled when she didn't reward them for being a feminist.

I just want to tell these poor male feminists... "Dude, no don't believe all the bs feminists tell you.

I have faith in them. Just because you're too stupid to grasp basic concepts doesn't mean the same can be said for all the other men.

I'm sex positive, sex negative was so yesterday!

Sex negative feminism hasn't been a thing since the 60s (remember when women couldn't have credit cards? No? Well, then there's no reason why you would remember the time feminism was sex negative.)

I very much doubt that they were pretending to want to get laid.

Your doubt doesn't override her lived experiences. It's nice that you posted her article here so you can do your own interpretation that's in direct contradiction with what she wrote.

women that are leading them on and don't want to have sex

You're contradicting your own claim in next paragraph, you realize that, right? Why would he care if these women want to have sex with him or not? According to you, no non-stupid guy would try to get laid with "man-hating bi-lesbian-trans fat feminists" anyway.

You don't sound very bright. Are you a high schooler?

[–]SunnyFoxesRed for life, love & sex1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You shouldn't support feminism so you can be "liked". You should support feminism because it's the right thing to do, and it is beneficial for everyone. Supporting a movement so as to be "liked" is stupid and disingenuous.

People should never do things for other people to be liked. A man should never be supportive of a woman's... I agree it is stupid and disingenuous too do "nice" things for people and being supportive of their beliefs, especially hypocritical feminists. No, you should not support feminism because it is wrong, not about equality, and is only beneficial to women at the expense of men.

I mean, if you have average IQ and the patience to actually read shit, it is not confusing at all.

No, not at all. It is well understood. Just not by those poor "male feminists" who actually think that it is about equality, because they actually believed what feminist told them.

Sex positive, why not both, some men are rapists but a lot of women experience sexual assault, doing sexual things without consent is sexual assault, feminism encompass a wide variety of beliefs, be considerate of others, you can approach anyone but leave them alone if they ask to be left alone, and you can pay for dates if you want but do not feel obligated to. See? Was that so hard? Most of it almost sounds like common sense.

You really are a piece of work. "feminism encompass a wide variety of ~~contradictory~~ beliefs" Can "a wide variety" be non-contradictory?

"be considerate of others" is a societal belief not a feminist one - stop appropriating my culture. (I hope you get the reference) and also remember what you said earlier, "Supporting a movement so as to be "liked" is stupid and disingenuous." I am confused, should a male feminist be considerate or not? First no, now yes, you are contradicting yourself. Okay, sometimes, but only if he has a feminists consent. "you can approach anyone but leave them alone if they ask to be left alone" Thank you for your permission, I really needed it... The approaching thing is not about that and you know it. It is about the stupidity of "without her prior permission/consent". How on earth are you supposed to get someone's permission to approach them if you can't approach them without permission? An inbetweener? "Most of it almost sounds like common sense." You have to be kidding!

insert tons of strawmen

You really should say insert a ton of "male feminists" and not strawmen, because it is the poor male feminists that are fake and strawmen don't deserve the bad reputation. Also why can't we call them straw-women fallacies because it is mostly women that use this type of fallacy. I counted, I swear. I think that it is very sexist to call them strawmen. Maybe strawpeople would be better. Why have feminists not sorted this sexism out yet?

The questions weren't the problem. The problem was that when she asked him to stop, he said she should feel grateful that he even listens.

Really? He stopped... and said some stupid shit because he is a poor misguided sexually frustrated "male feminist". Trying to guilt trip her. Are you really surprised by it. Could she not have predicted that would happen?

Why should she be grateful? It's basic manners in a relationship to listen to one another. Is she also supposed to be grateful when he uses the bathroom by himself? How about when he manages to wipe his own ass? Maybe she should give him a gold star.

No, she just should not have lead him on... Let's not forget that she made decisions there too that lead up to the event (that she conveniently glosses over). Are we not allowed to examine and criticize the feminists women's role in this? Honestly, I think he should get a gold star for attempting to do the impossible and have sex with a feminist. He is a really brave man. All us other men would like to thank him for his great personal sacrifice and the confirmation that, it just is not worth it. We hope that he gets his dignity back soon. Okay, in all seriousness, the poor guy messed up badly but I doubt that he knows better when he is trying to do sex the feminist way and has been listening to feminists about how sex works. It was bound to happen. Should he ask for consent every 8 seconds or every 9 seconds... you know, because women are so pathetic they can't say no or stop. He is lucky she was a strong, independant women that could say to stop. I really think he was lucky there. So sex is like wiping your ass, to feminists. Now it all make sense. Very humourous strawman.

It's basic manners in a relationship to listen to one another.

But only he must be considerate of her feelings and "listen" to her rules. She does not need to be considerate of his feelings or listen to him. Am I getting this right? I think I may be getting the hang of this being a feminist thing.

Sex negative feminism hasn't been a thing since the 60s (remember when women couldn't have credit cards? No? Well, then there's no reason why you would remember the time feminism was sex negative.)

I don't think she got the memo It may have started in the 60's but it did not end there and still is supported by feminists.

I think she needs a memo too Do I really need to dig out all the recent feminist articles that try to shame men for wanting sex? Please, I don't want to go to jessabel.com again. I'm still traumatized from the last time.

Your doubt doesn't override her lived experiences. It's nice that you posted her article here so you can do your own interpretation that's in direct contradiction with what she wrote.

She wrote a one-sided hit piece that does nothing but blame "male feminist" for daring to exist. Where she did not even for a single second consider the side of the male feminist. All men are bad, including male feminists. She has an agenda.

You're contradicting with your own claim in next paragraph, you realize that, right? Why would he care if these women want to have sex with him or not? According to you, no non-stupid guy would try to get laid with "man-hating bi-lesbian-trans fat feminists".

Because he may actually be stupid enough to think that these feminist are being honest with him AND a poor male feminist may actually really be into strong, independant women and actually like this woman, the poor guy... there is no contradiction. I'm not going to fall for it, but a male feminists may.

You are really trying very hard to make up this so called "contradiction" as if it negates the points that I was making in my previous post.

1) Male feminists are clueless about sexual relationships and sex because they believe what feminists say.
2) Feminist sexual relationship and sex advice is contradictory and confusing, "a wide variety of beliefs" as you said, hence them being so messed up and doing really messed up stuff.
3) Feminist women (like most other women) like and want masculine men, in spite of the lies they tell about masculine gender roles not mattering.
4) Any man that actually wants to get laid with any regularity should not listen to feminist advice (and complaints) about sexual relationships and sex. Except to laugh at how wrong it is.
5) It will always be the fault of these creepy "nice guy" "male feminist", no matter what. Feminism (and women) are not responsible for setting these poor guys up for failure by selling them bad advice and "a wide variety of beliefs".
6) The male feminist needs to learn a lot... but not from feminists. Feminist will always see him as an enemy because he is male and treat him so without remorse, just like she did with this article.
7) Feminist will never admit to any wrong-doing wrt how they treat, advise and manipulate these poor male feminists. You will never, ever hear a feminist write an article about any of that... It is the male feminist or any man's fault, always. She will also not be held responsible for leading the guy on and hurting his feelings because he is not allowed to have feelings.
8) Any man or male feminist that even dares to make a single stupid mistake, should immediately be put to death. The worthless, sexist, misogynistic scum.
9) Feminists (and women) will reject the male feminist in favour of a "real" sexist pig AKA man at the first chance they get and make it really awkward for the poor guy by writing an article about why she thinks you, the poor misguided, sexually frustrated, non-masculine, inexperienced, male feminist, are scum.
10) Everything will be considered sexual assault or rape, even daring to admire AKA look at them. And you will be guilty until proven innocent.

I really feel sorry for these poor guys. They are real misogynist in the making. If they don't hate women after being treated like this, the guy is a saint.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

It promotes the idea of toxic masculinity.

Or in another way of describing that .... TRP promotes the idea of masculinity.

And women who don't want men to be masculine have called masculinity "toxic masculinity" in an attempt to pathologize their natural preferences and behaviours. Mainly in an attempt to shame them into NOT acting as they would wish to, and acting the way women think they'd wish them to act.

Except it all falls down when the Feminist women pushing the "toxic masculinity" line then carry on rejecting the guys who feminise themselves.... and carry on dating the traditionally masculine guys. Rationalising it that "he's masculine but not in that awful toxic way".

Leaving their poor feminist males adrift in feminisms self-created sea of bullshit wondering why they can;t get laid despite "doing all the right things, given how feminism has informed me of what the right things are".

"Toxic Masculinity" is just another word for "Masculinity". Get over it. Men like things that girls don't like they like.

[–]octopus_sushiBlue Pill2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

No, feminists generally have no strong opinions on how men should act. Aside from things like, not harassing other people and not assaulting other people. But I think those apply to both genders. Men just happen to more often be the offenders. So, sure, beating people up and shouting slurs is pathologized.

As is lots of other things. Being aggressive sexually. Dominating others. Assuming leadership of a group by force of personality. What a lot of feminism calls "micro-aggressions" are really just masculine men being who they are.

All of this tends to get lumped in with toxic masculinity.

Here is the geekfeminism wiki page (top google result for "toxic masculinity"). I've highlighted all the ones that are just natural behaviour for masculine men of all kinds....

The pervasive idea of male-female interactions as competition, not cooperation.

The pervasive idea that men cannot truly understand women, and vice versa--and following, that no true companionship can be had between different sexes.

The expectation that Real Men are strong, and that showing emotion is incompatible with being strong. Anger is either framed as the exception to the rule, or as not an emotion.

Relatedly, the idea that a Real Man cannot be a victim of abuse, or that talking about it is shameful.

Men are just like that: the expectation that Real Men are keenly interested in sex, want to have sex, and are ready to have sex most if not all times

The idea that Real Men should be prepared to be violent, even when it is not called for.

For example, a common response to women's tales of experiencing street harassment is for a man who's listening to say, "If I was there, I would have punched [the harasser]." This is problematic .

Discussed at length in a Go Make Me A Sandwich blog entry Male Protagonist Bingo: A study in cliches

Though not reinforced much in fictional media, in real life it is widely expected that a man would abandon his pregnant girlfriend, and is incapable and/or unwilling to take responsibility.

The myth that men are not interested in parenting, and are inherently unsuited to be single parents.

discourages men from becoming involved in the lives of their children.

encourages household inequality, which hurts all involved.

assumes that in case of divorce, children will go with their mothers, instead of examining each situation individually.

Emasculation: the idea that there is a range of feminine interests and activities a Real Man would not hold, and that disprove a man's masculinity regardless of his other actions:

interest in one's personal looks, cosmetics, dressing up, fashion

being emotional, expressing emotion, crying

appreciating "frivolous" things such as sugary "girly" drinks, romantic styles, cute animal videos, romcom flicks

understanding women, being sympathetic

being silly, giddy

needing help, not-knowing

As you can see. Most of the attitudes masculine men hold are deemed "toxic" and undesirable. Something to be elminated with extreme prejudice for the "sufferers" own good, even if he is quite happy being him.

Toxic masculinity isn't "men being men". It's forcing people to uphold unhealthy images of themselves for the sake of not being emasculated. Did you watch the video?

I did not. I don't watch videos, not information dense enough. I'll read an article if you post one..... As long as my preference here isn't "toxic".

I don't think you care about reality, tbh, you seem more intent on playing the victim against some imaginary enemy.

Not really. I would have described myself as a feminist for about 10 years. I was a political poster from the left on a lot of political blogs. Feminists were my allies.

Right up until (about 5 years pre-RP) I noticed some things I didn;t like and tried to discuss them with feminists ... And despite my long track record of being an ally, the moment they realised I was male and didn't agree about this I became a manspaining douche, from nowhere. Just for respectful disagreement.

Happenned everywhere I went, previous allies (when I was agreeing).... Suddenly thought I was a shitlord misogynists for even the slightest disagreement. I realized at that point that feminism had jumped the shark and stopped desrcibing my gender position as feminist.

About 5 years after that I discovered RP.

My reaction to feminism is a reaction to being on the inside and seeing it go sour. Seeing it not only blind to male issues (as it had always been) but now actively working against males, and actively quashing and shouting down open discussion, becoming impervious to criticism.

Ever since then feminism has kept bashing me around the head with more and more instances that show to me I should not be a feminist. They're not looking out for me, and they're not even being careful not to harm others in their pursuit of goodies for the girls anymore.

I was a feminist you pushed out, because I was a masculine feminist.

I ain't coming back until you return to an egalitarian platform that doesn't make me, and people like me, out to be enemies for just being who we are. I'm still an egalitarian. I still believe in equal rights, and equality of opportunity, I believe in that being EQUAL FOR ME as well as it being equal for you.

That used to make me a feminist. Now it makes me a Shitlord Misogynist Mansplainer who should pack his penis up and get back to TRP.

[–]octopus_sushiBlue Pill1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No, there is nothing wrong with being emotionally stoic or being sexually domineering (consensually).

Your sistren beg to differ. That was the top result for toxic masculinity and it directly contradicts what you are saying here.

Seems like your definition of the term isn't the commonly accepted one. Certainly when it's hurled at me for being me most times it has been hurled because they say I am beings sexually domineering.

Holy fuck, look at half the BP posts on this site.

The problem comes in when there is an expectation that "real men" must be emotionally stoic and sexually dominant

So what is wrong with saying men should be stoic and sexually dominant ? It's true.

You don't have to be if you don't want to be.... But most masculine men would say that if you aren't stoic, and you are sexually submissive... You might be male but you're not acting like a man.

That's our view. And you've labelled it toxic because YOU DONT LIKE IT.

This is why it's toxic, because it forces men to behave in that way, lest they are teased or called "unmanly".

No, we're not forcing anything here. It's our view and if you ask us then we will give it. I think the problem you have here is not with masculinity or masculine views... It's with bullying. That's the problem you've defined and you can do that with anything. You can bully men quite easily by taunting then about being toxic for example. Trying to shame and denigrate them with that!

Like you lot do.

The problem isn't with people views... Or with masculinity, toxic or not, the problem is with bullying people who don't agree with you.

Like the male bullies do (masculine or not) and like the feminists do by trying to make masculinity toxic and shame and taunt us with that.

The redpill idea that a man must be alpha to get what he wants, he must be the captain, he must treat women as a child or he is not real man and he will be emasculated. That is the embodiment of toxic masculinity.

What utter bollocks. There is no MUST about it, for one. These are all recommendations. For two, if they feel bullied.... They can just leave. We won't make them stay, or pursue them.

If you don't like our message, don't read it.

We are not going to censor our honest view just because someone comes, doesn't like it, stays anyway, and whines they don't like it.

Fine. You don't like it ? Fuck off. We're not here to bully you, but talk amongst ourselves. Anyone who feels bullied can withdraw at any point with 1second to spare with 1 click.

They can solve their own problem just like that.

If they won't, I'm fucked if I'm going to dick with something that helps 100,000 men just to save the guy that can't save himself with a single click.

It's hard to comment on your personal experience because I don't actually know what issue you were trying to discuss

Well it was several things. The wage gap (because I'm an economist and could see where they were getting that wrong) and the effect of proposed new rape rules on campus for males (which subsequently became actual rules), and a general pushing past the equality line in certain areas such that females were superior to males for those rights. Pushing past the equal opportunity line.

[–]ThirdEyeSqueegeed6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]octopus_sushiBlue Pill7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]SepeanMarried RP Man3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

'The Red Pill' is nothing more than a bullshit patriarchal newspeak meme designed to shame men who dare to be themselves.

Newsflash, sister: no men are naturally inclined to listen to girls' feelings instead of fucking them. They only do it because they've been duped into thinking that this is the way to get to fuck them.

We shame them for buying into the blue pill bullshit.

There is nothing that men want more than to no have to listen to girls and instead just fuck them. And that is what TRP gives them.

The only unnatural thing about TRP is that many have a preference for being lazy, and you have to be awesome to get quality girls and that takes work. But given the choice of working in the gym and on your career, or listening to girls and doing them favors, the former is clearly the better option, and luckily also the one that works.

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With regards to blank slate, men and women are different, but social conditioning exaggerates the differences.

You're arguing that social conditioning is the primary reason that the genders respond less well to those who don't conform to stereotypes, as opposed to evolution? (See example below)

Encouraging people to be more honest and open will create a healthier and more content population in the long run, because people will be able to put more effort into doing what they want, rather than maintaining a false image.

Define 'honest and open' v. 'false image'

I'm not quite sure how just world fallacy fits in here.

In that you're discussing an asexual 'people are people' utopia where primitive urges have little to do with our psychological or psychosocial schema or rationalisation for decisions. For example, 'women shouldn't judge men for being sensitive, we're all people'. That's not how hypergamy works.

[–]octopus_sushiBlue Pill4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Define 'honest and open' v. 'false image'

Honest and open, as in, men can make sandwiches if they like making sandwiches. As opposed to being forced to uphold a false image by refusing to make sandwiches because it would be "unmanly" and insisting that a woman do it. A more serious example is a guy who refuses to apply for the dental hygienist program at his local college, even though it would be a good fit for him, because he feels it is not a very manly job. He opts to take a crash course on forklift driving instead, though the job isn't as secure and doesn't pay as well.

You're arguing that social conditioning is the primary reason that the genders respond less well to those who don't conform to stereotypes, as opposed to evolution?

Yes. There's no evolutionary reason why that guy couldn't become a great dental hygienist.

In that you're discussing an asexual 'people are people' utopia where primitive urges have little to do with our psychological or psychosocial schema or rationalisation for decisions.

That's begging the question. The cultural ideas for beauty and attraction has changed significantly through different time periods and culture. In ancient Greece, for example, they preferred smaller penises because they thought it looked more refined and civilized. In Mauritania, girls are force fed to gain weight because heavier women are considered most beautiful.

[–]Xemnas81[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

OK.

A more serious example is a guy who refuses to apply for the dental hygienist program at his local college, even though it would be a good fit for him, because he feels it is not a very manly job. He opts to take a crash course on forklift driving instead, though the job isn't as secure and doesn't pay as well.

I can't think of any mature RPer who would advise a man to do forklift driving rather than dental hygiene, if only for the $$$ and status

Yes. There's no evolutionary reason why that guy couldn't become a great dental hygienist.

Fair enough, your example is difficult to rebuke with EP

That's begging the question. The cultural ideas for beauty and attraction has changed significantly through different time periods and culture. In ancient Greece, for example, they preferred smaller penises because they thought it looked more refined and civilized. In Mauritania, girls are force fed to gain weight because heavier women are considered most beautiful.

You think that RP is too restricted to Western cultural/beauty standards, and specifically night-club/sorority/fraternity cultural standards of beauty and success?

[–]octopus_sushiBlue Pill4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I can't think of any mature RPer who would advise a man to do forklift driving rather than dental hygiene

Maybe a better RP example would be a stay-at-home dad. Some of the highest earning wall street women have sahd taking care of the children and working behind the scenes, making their success possible (gender reversed is true for many successful men). If that is what a guy wants, I don't see why it should be "unmanly". If the wife makes more money and the man doesn't like his work that much, why wouldn't it make sense for him to stay at home with the children instead? This is a better decision overall. (Aside from the "omg cheating" paranoia. Women have dealt with it for centuries, stay at home dads can cope).

You think that RP is too restricted to Western cultural/beauty standards, and specifically night-club/sorority/fraternity cultural standards of beauty and success?

Among many other things. Humans naturally don't fit into neat little boxes. Generalizations are self-fulfilling prophecies in many cases.

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[–]SunnyFoxesRed for life, love & sex0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I believe that mutually beneficial cooperation is the gold standard of social interaction/business/relationships and always do my best to move towards it.

However what I believe is irrelevant when examining reality. People just don't care what I (or you) believe. The reality is there are way too many fuck up people that want to fuck you over. If you don't know what or how they are doing it ... you are fucked by default.

A win-win situation is always better than a win-lose situation. But when push comes to shove and a win-lose situation is the only possible outcome... I'm going to make sure I win (unless I have more to gain by appearing to lose)

I have done this before, I let a guy beat the crap out of me and got him arrested and fired - I practice Jiu Jitsu so I could have easily taken him down but instead of blocking, I just took it. If I want to "not lose" AKA survive, then I better be prepared to use every advantage that I can - including the 48 laws of power and the art of war (strategy).

Your assumption that the 48 laws of power is always bad is an example of black and white thinking (a false dichotomy) that ignores all the nuance of real life. They are just tools in your toolbox. You can decide how to use them or not to use them. My advice is to use them sparingly; the least amount for the greatest effect. I do agree that people that use the laws of power as their default go to are fucked up. But people looking after themselves in a ~~cutthroat environment~~ at office politics also need to use them or crawl away defeated.

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

The reality is there are way too many fuck up people that want to fuck you over.

this is what paranoid / selfish / untrustworthy (victimizers projecting their traits on others) or trauma survivors (unlucky, unhealed victims) tend to believe.

A win-win situation is always better than a win-lose situation. But when push comes to shove and a win-lose situation is the only possible outcome... I'm going to make sure I win (unless I have more to gain by appearing to lose)

what if society would be better off if the other guy prevailed? would you concede in those cases? or do you need to win even if it hurts others?

Your assumption that the 48 laws of power is always bad is an example of black and white thinking

if your only like it as a guide to understanding dark triad crazies, then it's not bad (that's what the author claims he wrote the book about). but if you emulate that mindset, then you are disturbed.

But people looking after themselves in a cutthroat environment at office politics also need to use them or crawl away defeated.

i don't agree. further, i don't think people that use them win long term, on average.

[–]SunnyFoxesRed for life, love & sex0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

this is what paranoid / selfish / untrustworthy (victimizers projecting their traits on others) or trauma survivors (unlucky, unhealed victims) tend to believe.

LOL Really? Surely you can't be that naive? When more is at stake, when there is more to lose, when things matter more, people up the ante and become far more "dark triad", even normal people. This is a fact of basic human psychology. Go ahead and sing sweet songs of people's loving behaviour, but you are always going to finish last. Are you a such a "nice guy" that you believe psychopaths can murder you and you should not defend yourself?

what if society would be better off if the other guy prevailed? would you concede in those cases? or do you need to win even if it hurts others?

No, there is a win-win there for society (or community or family) and I will take the win-win over the win-lose always even if I personally lose. However with every scenario like this I have found that a win-win-win is possible. I have never come across a scenario where benefiting my society, community or family was a lose for me or anyone. Your hypothetical scenario is outlandishly improbable.

if your only like it as a guide to understanding dark triad crazies, then it's not bad (that's what the author claims he wrote the book about). but if you emulate that mindset, then you are disturbed.

Have you ever read any books on war or business strategy, like the Art of War by Sun Tzu? Were the NATO countries that went to war against the Nazi's "disturbed" or were they doing the right thing. Why did they resist Hitler's third reich?

but if you emulate that mindset, then you are disturbed

Yes, I see where you are coming from, however what tools are in your toolbox to deal with these crazies? Seriously, I would like to know. My tools are limited, and I am forced to use their tools against them or they will win and I and society will lose. And, by the way, how does society win by allowing a crazy to have power? What did Germany get with Hitler?

I agree with you that using dark triad methods never ends well, and thinking that you have to beat or dominate or overcome everyone is seriously messed up. Stopping fuck up people from hurting you is ethical. Yet you seem to have an issue with the tools. The tools are unethical, according to you, irrespective of what the person is doing with them.

Seriously what effective tools do you have against these crazies? It seems you are advocating just letting them get on with it with no resistance. Exactly what they want. Are you one of these crazies?

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]SunnyFoxesRed for life, love & sex0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Okay, I hear you, but I have to ask; how many people must get hurt (or in the case of war, die) to stop the dark triad types.

In my opinion, earlier is always better. Less people get hurt/die. It is best that they are prevented from attaining power at all, if possible. That means using their tactics against them. It means being strategic.

Report them to HR for what? They are careful not to get their hands dirty or caught in the act. The more intelligent they are the harder it will be to find evidence. What if they are HR or s/he has HR sown up with sycophants?

If you stop associating with them... they win because you are out of the loop and you have shown your hand and turned them into a direct enemy with little social proofing. You started it s/he will say!

You really should not play this game... you are going to lose badly.

[–]taiboworks0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SunnyFoxes1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]taiboworks1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SunnyFoxes1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DerEwigeKatzendameThat wasn't cute or funny-2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Xemnas81[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]DerEwigeKatzendameThat wasn't cute or funny0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Q4BP: Which elements of TRP are actively damaging TO MEN?
Author	Xemnas81
Upvotes	5
Comments	227
Date	November 9, 2015 6:41 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3s3sun/q4bp_which_elements_of_trp_are_actively_damaging/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4bp-which-elements-of-trp-are-actively-damaging.278564 https://theredarchive.com/post/278564

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