When a LTR isn't worth saving / how much should I sacrifice for him? / Are these actually red flags or not?

-Acta-Non-Verba- · 2019-09-19T18:51:09+00:00

A real man is proactive. Good things don't just happen, you have to go out there and make them happen. He needs to step up .

NationalMouse · 2019-09-19T17:42:18+00:00

You obviously love him and he seems to love you too based on what you’ve told us, but love doesn’t pay the bills, love doesn’t push a content person forward, and love certainly doesn’t make a boy into a man.

If I were you, I would give him a good kick in the butt and make your exit easier for the both of you and move out. I would tell him that I don’t want to break up (yet) but I do need to see some action from him. Move out, get a roommate, make it a point to only spend weekends and maybe one day during the week together, make some new girlfriends or a new hobby to occupy the rest of your week, and see if he does anything to get back on his own 2 feet.

Tell him that you are tired of telling him about your anxieties and fears for your future together and him not taking it seriously by brushing you off and not putting anything into action. If nothing changes within the next 6 months (which is plenty of time for him to get a new job, or a place of his own, or you might even find that your feelings have changed) then you can reevaluate the relationship and see if it is even worth staying together. In my opinion, your boyfriend seems to have a lot of growing up to do and sometimes we outgrow our partners. It doesn’t make either of you a bad person, that’s just how life is. You might even find each other again in the future, but sometimes breaking up in the name of love can be the best thing for both of you.

NoSoulGinger116 · 2019-09-19T21:31:05+00:00

Fucking run sweetheart. My ex was like this and he became increasingly abusive. There's no fixing this. Run to the fucking hills and never look back. I don't care how good he thinks he is. Walk. Now.

spankthegoodgirl · 2019-09-19T18:50:01+00:00

5 would be a HUGE deal breaker for me. And #6 along with it? Nope. No way. Anyone...friend, family member, but especially significant other that can't talk through issues and insists the world is the problem without looking at themselves... I want nothing to do with them.

You will be dragging through life with this person while they resent you for "blaming" them (i.e. getting them to be honest with themselves) while you long for freedom.

Your instincts are correct in having red flags. NOT worth it Imho.

Also, look into something called the sunk costs phalacy. Basically the thought that you've spent so much time/money/effort on something/someone that you don't want stop because you're bound to reap a reward eventually. That's the same thinking that causes gamblers to loose millions in a heartbeat. Relationships don't work like that.

Marriage only makes problems more pronounced, not less. So while he's dependent on you, not into planning, defensive, blame shifting and basically a hermit, why would that change if you were to commit to him? Answer....it wouldn't. If he isn't self motivated, you aren't going to motivate him, honey. Stop trying.

misscleanex · 2019-09-19T18:43:39+00:00

You're falling for the sunk cost fallacy. "3 whole years that's gotta mean something!"

Nonononono!

You're not throwing 3 years away if it means a miserable life if you had stayed.

This won't get better, and the lack of close friends and his unwillingness to handle conflict like an adult is alarming.

My ex husband was just like him. Soooo glad I jumped ship.

HB3234 · 2019-09-19T19:53:49+00:00

Of COURSE he is going to be loyal to his meal ticket. Loyalty from someone who depends on your contribution for housing and to get to/from work is just common sense pragmatic behavior, not any show of great love.

You sound like you are hanging on to him because you fear you are weird and unlovable, so no other man will be interested in you. How about you work on yourself so you don't feel like you're an unpalatable person, instead?

People who are saying he is a young man waiting to get his stride are wrong. A hardworking young man who has been employed since graduation but struggling would fit that criteria. Not a 26 year old with a 2 year employment gap! Why didn't he go get his career started? Because he was happier to let OP take care of him, than he was spending time apart to get to a place where he can take care of OP.

He has 100% shown you who he is. Do you want a marriage where you always work? Do you want a marriage where you are never taken out, or have to nag and nag to get a reluctant date? Do you want kids with a man who doesn't know how to talk out his conflicts and will pass these patterns on to your sons and daughters? Would you be proud if your son turned out this way at 26?

Kara__El · 2019-09-19T18:02:17+00:00

I could see him being a great father one day.

It doesn't sound like he can, though, considering he claims he can barely plan a week in advance. At 26, he should be able to picture the future, if he's in a committed relationship.

It's hard, because for every concern I have about his potential red flags, I can see the problem from his perspective.

Love goggles will do that to you.

Also, I haven't dated since I was 19 - and I know it's very hard to find a man willing to settle down in the way we have.

... and here's the issue. You're scared to leave, because leaving is scary. Better the devil you know than the one you don't. But what you're saying isn't really true. It would be quite easy to find a guy to lie around and let you do everything, without making any sacrifices himself. This guy has set the bar really low and I guarantee you can do better, if better means more ambitious, more social, more direction in life. Now, if better meant hotter or taller or more charismatic, I'd say you were branch swinging... but that's not the case.

Part of me wants to move closer to my best friends and start over completely because I'm not getting the social life I need in this current town or from my boyfriend.

Honestly, I think this sounds like an excellent idea.

I don't want to lose 3 years of love if these issues can be fixed, and maybe I need to stick with him and give him the confidence to keep pushing forward. I'm very worried that if I break up with him I will regret it forever. But I am also worried that I could lose my whole youth to a man who won't grow up.

Do you want to lose three more years, working on fixing problems he doesn't agree exist? You're not going to regret it forever if you leave, but you might if you stay.

I married a psychopath at 19. While he shared some of these problems (not working and blaming everyone but himself), I admit the situation is not the same. Starting over at 23, though? That's scary no matter what. Think about how much scarier it'll be at 33, though. You can't take back the last three years. You can reclaim the next three.

At the very least, you need to move out and get some distance. Tell him what you need from him, to make things work, and be willing to back it up when he doesn't come through (because he probably won't). That's what makes this not an ultimatum.

failingtheturingtest · 2019-09-19T23:58:59+00:00

Cons

Lacks everything you're looking for in a partner

Pros

Managed to stick it out long enough that you're codependent.

Result

The ONLY reason to stay with this man is because you believe you will not find anyone who has any qualities you like that will want you in return. Is that reasonable? Do you truly think you could never find someone who you can love who actually makes an effort to get anywhere in life?

melitele3 · 2019-09-19T20:55:15+00:00

Quite honestly it all depends on your priorities in life. He sounds like a decent person. He has some negative traits that do require fixing in order for a healthy family to be established - the problem is, that he doesn’t seem to be aware of this.

If we were talking about a 26 year old man that admitted all of those are a problem and he will do everything he can to fix them, you wouldn’t probably be on here, writing about your concerns.

I dare to say he seems to be an unattractive individual in eyes of a woman that desires the traditional model of a family - by that I mean he appears to be a boy, not a man. He certainly isn’t (at the moment) husband nor father material. How could you depend on a man who doesn’t admit to his faults, doesn’t have any motivation to work, confesses that he isn’t ready for a family because he can’t even plan the next week! Regardless of gender, at the age of 26 a sentence like that sounds rather pathetic.

It appears to me as you are a woman that would like to feel safe and taken care of by the man. It also sounds that you fear working all your life and not being able to possibly fulfill a homemaker and mother role (correct me if I am wrong). The man that you are with - will not fulfill those needs at this time. He might have - and I know he does - potential to become a real man. Hearing about his “enthusiasm” and disability to acknowledge his weaknesses, I don’t think him transforming into a reliable husband will happen any time soon. As you know, we women aren’t necessarily blessed with all the time in the world, we usually have to make decisions quick if we want to have that traditional lifestyle and becomes wives and mothers at early age. Your boyfriend will not be able to fulfill those wishes before you hit the wall. And that’s something I would really consider.

LateralThinker13 · 2019-09-20T15:41:22+00:00

I'm trying to give him SOME of the benefit of the doubt, since I feel like I owe him that. But I think me leaving, even just temporarily, could inspire him to take action.

Wishful thinking. He's very beta, and NOT the giving kind. You are seeking more, and it doesn't sound like he'll shape up. No Captain is better than an Absent Captain, because then you KNOW you have to rely upon yourself.

daria44 · 2019-09-19T18:08:58+00:00

Been there, done that. I was in relationship like this - he was blaming his parents, his school and the whole world for his failures; he didn't have education and good job. But he was very loyal and I didn't want to break things up after 4,5 years together (and 2,5 years of living together). I was 23 and really unhappy - I knew something wasn't right, something was missing. I tried to fix everything, but we eventually broke up.

Now I am in a new relationship and it's great. It's a whole new level. So my advice - break up with him. You're still young and there are plenty of fantastic men out there.

ragnarockette · 2019-09-20T00:30:36+00:00

6 is the biggest red flag to me. A victim mentality is draining to be around, leads to a life full of burned bridges, and will only cause you to lose respect in him.

I’d leave.

helluvamom · 2019-09-20T00:37:53+00:00

Your bf sounds like a typical young college dude who doesn’t know what he wants out of life at all. He’s just floating through life letting things happen to him. You are looking at him like he’s a man, but he’s a boy. You want grown man actions but he’s not there yet. You are holding things down, giving him stability in almost every way while not requiring him to give much to you. I’m glad you have a loyal guy, but that’s not the only requirement for a good relationship. He seems to not want to deal with the pressure of making actual choices and decisions so he avoids talking about anything that might lead to him having to do that. If you were also unsure of what you want out of life, this arrangement would be fine. But you’re saying you want ambition, momentum, family, security etc and he’s giving you none of that. The only way this is going to change is IF he REALLY does love you and is willing to step up to keep you. It’s time you move forward with your plans and see if he follows. Make your own plans for yourself. You don’t have to leave the area, but start planning a future you want and taking actions to get it. Tell him exactly what you want and expect. Don’t ask, don’t beg. Just be direct and firm. Tell him you’d love it if he comes along but if not, that’s cool too. And then see what happens. If he starts doing the stuff you’ve asked, great. Then things will move in the direction you want them to. If he can’t be the man you need, then that’s fine. You’ll be reaching your own short term goals and that will tell you what you need to know moving forward. It shouldn’t take long for you to see which side he falls on. He in or he’s out. You just have to go on about your life like you would if you were single and see if he decides to join that life.

organicsunshine · 2019-09-19T21:44:56+00:00

People do not change that much. I think you are both comfortable and have grooved in the habits. I would consider moving out and going it alone and see how he handles it.

Thunderpuddle · 2019-09-19T23:23:22+00:00

Sometimes men stay the same age they were when you started dating them, until something forces them to grow up. Maybe he just doesn’t realize it’s past his time.

If you want to invest in this, be candid, make him realize he needs to be your partner and why it matters. If you’re past that point, be candid and call it quits. Watch out for the slippery slope of staying friends.

Ausaris_562 · 2019-09-20T04:58:55+00:00

“Alexa, play ‘Tyrone’ by Erkyah Badu”

radical-trad · 2019-09-20T12:20:47+00:00

He’s too young and dumb to appreciate what he’s got - you should listen to your gut - always - our guts tend to read reality in a way our minds cannot. You are lonely and isolated now - with this guy it will probably get worse. He’s an avoider. Avoids world and you. He’s also passively saying he’s not loyal - he’s saying “I don’t know what I want at all”. Well - one thing you don’t want is a guy who doesn’t know what he wants, particularly when it’s sleeping in the bed next to him night after night.

My 23yo daughter just broke up with her bf from high school. They are both unique, or maybe weird, and I know they took comfort in finding someone similar who would understand them. I thought it would be rough for my daughter, but she’s happier now than I’ve seen her in awhile - she’s making friends and being a young person - instead of trying to work on a relationship with someone who is taking all her energy and not giving enough back in return.

peacocktoast · 2019-09-19T18:46:31+00:00

I personally think that goals are more important than being funny, and certainly more important than attractiveness. Laziness and apathy may grind on you significantly, and funniness/sexiness aren't going to feed you.

dashdotdott · 2019-09-19T22:32:44+00:00

Did I understand correctly, the city you live in doesn't have a lot of opportunities for him but he also is the one who choose that city? If that is the case, he needs to make a choice: a job in his field or the city he loves.

Listen, I'm in a scientific field; there are a lot of things he's learned that can be translated into other fields. For example, he could get into policy writing. Is he realistic about his career goals?

Is he complaining while job searching or just generally complaining? If he's complaining while actively (and I mean actively) searching, well job searching sucks. And it can be a full time job in its own right. But if he's just complaining while being lackadaisical about his search; you're right to be concerned about his ambition.

Also, intelligence only gets a person so far. He could be the smartest man in the room but if he is lazy, then he will not be the guy at the head of the table.

DuchessOfCarnage · 2019-09-19T23:33:00+00:00

Not one of your listed concerns, but he controls your friendships? That is concerning, he's trying to make your life as small as his is. Does he get out of the house or hang out with any old friends? If not, why don't other men want to hang with him?

He isn't working on your relationship in his free time, so how is he spending it? Does he go to the gym and help meal prep? Read articles in his field and volunteer? Or is he squandering his most important resource, time? It sounds like it would be a great time for him to get some certifications online, he could learn data analysis or other science/academic adjacent skills to make him more desirable on the job market.

classylassy28 · 2019-09-21T13:48:56+00:00

How did the move out talk go?

vintagegirlgame · 2019-09-21T17:38:02+00:00

Yeah this seems like a relationship of convenience on his part, and a comfort zone that keeps him from really having to get his act together. This is why RPW advises against shacking up without a marriage commitment on the horizon. I used to think this was silly Christian backwards type thinking, “get with the times ppl!” But the more I studied RP the more I realized it was for the benefit of the women, so she doesn’t give her gifts too easily.

My BF said some of the same lines about not having enough plans and not knowing when he would be able to plan for a family... difference was that he was financially independent, and even though he wasn’t super wealthy he was the one helping to support me financially (covering all the food/bills/cars). He also has always had a job and supported himself since he was 13, so I had no doubts about his ability to provide long term.

I did have to wait 10 years for an official proposal though! We met at 22 (me) and 27 (him) and it took him this long to be ready for the next step, even though we’ve had a private spiritual commitment for years. Most women wouldn’t be secure enough to wait that long and I don’t recommend it unless you have an out of this world kind of love and a whole lot of self confidence to keep you afloat during the waiting.

playful_myth · 2019-09-21T18:08:31+00:00

I'll be honest with you, in your place I would break up with him for good. How can a man feel comfortable letting you pay for the majority of things, not having a car/making you drive him everywhere for so long and not even putting effort on taking you out? We're redpill women. He has to step up his game as a man, especially at his age.

mairymb · 2019-09-22T14:03:17+00:00

That’s why I think a lot of time, dating older men is preferable for ladies who want to settle down. A man that hasn’t his life together will not me able to offer you stability because he is lost himself ( and it is totally normal ). If he really wanted to keep you he would tell you that even if he hasn’t his life together, he knows you are the woman of his life and that he WILL figure things out for the both of you !

ChaosDigits · 2019-09-19T18:12:56+00:00

Well after putting employment off for two years it will be very difficult to find gainful employment, which means he had to put in time working lower paying jobs. When you have a grind like that in front of you, making elaborate plans is unobtainable, because the plan is get through the grind. On the other side of it when the grind is over and he is making more money then he will probably be able to make better plans.

If you can wait while he finishes the grind then you should stay, if you cant wait, well then you cant wait.

jayval90 · 2019-09-19T21:58:01+00:00

This is exhibit A why you don't ever move in with someone who isn't committed to you. He simultaneously has what he wants and is stuck in a holding pattern. You're both settling for second best rather than making definite commitments and making the best decisions.

As for his job, he's going to have to move to a city that has more opportunity in his specialized field. You can't have these giant gaps on your resume.

Whether you want the relationship to continue or not, I'd recommend not continuing the lease. But as others have said, he is only one job offer away from basically addressing every single one of your issues, so I wouldn't recommend breaking up. You'll look like a gold digger if you're not careful.

If you're really committed to him, and think you can support him into a successful career, then ask him for that commitment. Sometimes making one commitment in life becomes habit-forming, and leads to the next commitment. Whether that's his career first then marriage or the other way around is up to you.

transdermalcelebrity · 2019-09-19T23:16:47+00:00

I met my husband during freshman year of college and he was very much like this... the only difference is that he sorta had ambition / goals, but they were a pretty crazy starting point, akin to "I have to be a celebrity artist or it isn't worth me getting a job at all and I should go back and live with my parents". That was the more extreme side of it. But generally, when I asked him what he wanted for his future he would just talk about being an old man who was loved and well regarded by everyone and known for doing something great. But no practical idea of what that great thing would be and no attempt to actually do anything.

I'm not going to lie to you, it was hard. And I suspect the main reason we stayed together during some years was a combination of apathy and shared / familiar neurosis (we later discovered his parents were the exact same flavor of toxicity as my parents). Even when he really realized his problems and was self aware, much of the time he was paralyzed to pull himself out of it. And I stayed because a) I didn't want to give up on the "best of him" and b) he was too familiar a neurosis... we saw the world in the same ways and most people didn't experience things the way we did. Our childhood trauma / alienation was too similar and other people just didn't talk to each other the way we did.

So I did it. I did what everyone told me not to and I followed him into hell... and after burning away quite a few layers of stupid, youthful toxicity, we ended up coming out of it. We have a really strong relationship. And we're always improving (that's our motto essentially), and when one of us is falling back to old ways, the other is both sympathetic but also doesn't allow it to go on for too long.

We've been together 26 years and have a beautiful and successful 12 year old. And we hope to keep improving and growing.

But it really wasn't easy, and there were no guarantees. So I'm going to pose it the way famous writers and directors advise young people about going into their industry: if you can do anything else, do that. But I knew, this was who I wanted. I loved him and despite the scary woods he was lost in, he loved me. So we fought and it was worth it.

But expect everything you do to be delayed. We didn't get engaged until we'd been together 6 years (living together for 2). Didn't even try for kids until our early 30s and once we had our daughter he was in a crisis for much of the first couple years because how can he be a dad when he still feels like a 9 year old. So he wasn't helpful with the baby. He's an awesome dad with the preteen and he's getting better all the time.

At the end of the day, he put in the time and I put in the time and we succeeded. He's kicking butt in leadership at work, gives us as much of him as he can, and still puts in time working on his creative dream (it's just that needs to take a back seat to work and us sometimes). And our 40s have just been spectacular; we've built a great life together. So it can be done. But again, no guarantees.

Things I would suggest if you want to consider this path:

1) you guys need an agreement about talking truth. If he is absolutely determined to not stay in the relationship then you need to know now. Typical frightened male ambiguity is a different beast, but if he's sure it's a "no" then you need to move on.

2) Develop a language for problem resolution and taking care of business. It sounds unrelated, but if you can get this kind of really important adulting communication down, it makes all the personal stuff so much easier. We use the professional language of work, we have regular meetings every 2 weeks (we use the SCRUM process of project management for managing our "household"; this also includes social or personal things that come up).

3) Time box it all. Decide absolutely the longest that YOU willing to play this out with no guarantees. But don't tell him. It's not meant to be an ultimatum or pressure tactic (that won't be reliable or honest). This is for you; insurance. All he needs to know is that you are a human being who wants these things in life.

4) If you are up for some deep reading, check out the book: The Problem of the Puer Aeternus by Marie Louise von Franz because I know that's what I was dealing with and I suspect you're looking at a case of it.

Very long story short, these are charismatic men whose development is frozen in adolescence. They seem exciting, but have very real problems with learning how to be adults and they very much resent the regularity of an occupation. It is a psychological journey to contend with it. The book discusses it in depth (sorry, it's not an easy self-help, but more like an academic lecture) and you can get an understanding of the nature of the problem and what kind of solution strategies can help.

And if you are talking enough truth with him, he may eventually want to read it. It had a profound effect on my husband. He had already started down the path of trying to improve, but this really helped him understand why he saw things so differently from other men.

schielegirl · 2019-09-19T18:16:00+00:00

if you're wondering if theres a red flag, its a red flag

you need an older man with his life together. he sounds like a typical 26 year old to be quite honest.

aim for 30ish?

must have job, at least 1 car, savings, etc.

if_i_could_trade · 2019-09-19T18:01:21+00:00

isn't a red flag at such a young age.
is a red flag re: never thanking you. It's fine for him not to have owned a car earlier.
is not a red flag, he probably feels like you're pressuring him. I wouldn't even say this is a "lack of direction", he just (rightly) feels it's too early to say much constructive on the subject beyond him telling you he wants that life one day (which he HAS).
isn't a red flag but it's concerning. It can be addressed, though. Build a fun list of things to do together instead of just telling him "we need to put more effort in" per se.
is bad but it doesn't sound like you communicate perfectly either, and you're both young. You can work on this.
is a red flag IF it's really as consistent as you claim.

Honestly, though, it sounds like the vast majority of your issues would go away if he found some success. Young men get their shit together and suddenly snap into gear all the time. Help him do it and encourage efforts that he makes.

If he can't be helped, he can't be helped. But all you wrote says to me "young man who feels a bit bad about lack of success so far and needs some motivation and a few breaks", not "red flag".

Animal_testing_lab · 2019-09-19T18:48:09+00:00

First of all let me say congrats on a 3 year long relationship! Lots of people wish their love lives could be as fruitful as yous and I am rooting for your relationship to work out. You two will def be in my prayers!

Now, I think all those things you mentioned can be fixed. It is apparent that you love him,and that he loves you back. That is the 1st step to a working relationship.

I think he just needs more confidence, independence, and control in his life. The fact that you are paying most of the rent, and were driving him to/from work probably brought his confidence down. Like you said the car is a step in the right direction, and I believe that once he gets more money and begins to take more control over his situation, the ambition issue will clear up soon after.

As far as taking you for granted and never taking you out to do things. I would say it is a two way street, I'm not saying you don't but have you ever taken him out? You said his job is labor intensive and tiring. Maybe you could be the one to open up that romantic door again by taking him to a spa and you both get massages and go out to eat. Don't forget that men want to be pampered just as much as we do :). I AM ROOTING FOR YOU SISTER! I thing you should give him some time and see where it all goes. I don't want you to have given away 3 years of your life just to have to start over with someone new.

blurgg77 · 2019-09-19T20:13:34+00:00

A lot of the issues here sound they stem from his career not taking off as quickly as you'd hoped. Think this through really carefully. You shouldn't dismiss a decent man who loves you simply because he isn't making a lot of money. Men are often treated like financial objects. Take a look at your own motivations and thought-processes. Is he really unmotivated, or are you filtering his actions through that lens because you resent him for not making a great deal more money?

Only you know for sure. And only you know whether or not you want to stay in this relationship.

All I can say is that it sounds like you have a good relationship based on this post, and it sounds like the bulk of the problems come from money.

Poena1992 · 2019-09-19T19:11:48+00:00

He's going trough a rough patch that happens to a lot of men at that age, inc me. Stick with him and support him in finding his way. He'll figure it out. Don't be taken for granted though, demand your dates and maybe even take the initiative in return for your support.