The dangers of echo chambers

jdoe5 · 2015-07-25T21:53:08+00:00

I've been waiting for this post for a long time.

I love TRP, it literally changed my life as many people on here will testify. I have so much to thank for it.

But for all the shit people talk about feminism and white knights just being clueless people who don't look at facts and just keep perpetuating beliefs, there are a lot of idiots on here who do the same thing with TRP beliefs. Like come on, the reason you ended up here is because you started questioning the social status quo, don't just become stupid again because you found something that finally makes sense.

Like OP said, almost every theory or belief is bound to have some hole or shortcoming, and TRP is no exception. Greet everything with a healthy amount of skepticism.

[deleted] · 2015-07-26T01:26:13+00:00

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oldmanwho · 2015-07-25T23:43:02+00:00

Taking the pill was the best thing that ever happened to me, drastic improvements to say the least. As crazy as it sounds, it also helped me overcome negative views I had toward women; mainly because they all stemmed from that "nice guy-ness".. I expected women I found attractive to love me without putting in more than a dog shit of effort to my appearance, physique, social skills etc..

I notice a lot of posters who love to just say "AWALT" about everything, but truth is: "AWALT for a reason". All women will leave a loser guy who doesn't bring home the cheese. All women will stop fucking a guy they don't find sexy anymore. All women don't view beta men who flock to them like a lost puppy dog as "sexy".

"AWALT" is something that has a negative connotation here suggesting that women are shallow opportunists who have a heart made of coal.

Wouldn't you lose interest in your girlfriend if she let her body go and you had options yourself?

Wouldn't you dump your girlfriend if she was financially irresponsible and refused to go to work. Or if you were okay with supporting her; if she didn't do chores around the house, prepare meals, or some type of productivity toward your benefit as a couple?

If you were a woman would you find a man who acted femmy, whined about first world problems, and overall expected you to treat him like his mother did as sexy, confident, and your "rock"?

The women who can't keep their legs closed and lie about it to their boyfriends, the women who divorce rape their husbands, the women who report false rape claims etc etc.. ARE DAMAGED WOMEN Do you not agree? DAMAGED as in DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE women who aren't damaged don't act this way.

Most women I've met don't truly give a fuck about the "patriarchy" they might say they don't agree with it or something, but at the end of the day most of them still want a strong, sexy, confident, leader type guy as a boyfriend. Most women who aren't totally career driven want to be house wives too. Most women want to go shopping at target and other "evil corporations" despite any leftist brainwashing.

A lot of us came here because we had bad experiences in the past from being beta. We weren't confident, we lacked success, and we endured extreme failure with women. Know who else went through all of this? Nearly every professional athlete; except they have a different perspective on it. They are THANKFUL FOR THE FAILURE because it taught them HOW TO SUCCEED The failure ignited the fire in their belly; and all I can say is thank god for the red pill for lighting that fire in my belly.

Be thankful for all the women in your past that you endured who taught you what to expect if you don't demonstrate masculine leadership (as in not being a spineless bitch, and not tolerating shitty behavior in partners), being her "rock", lifting and always working toward a nice physique, and ambition with money and/or your passion(s) in life. If you're doing all of this and you're not happy with her, just dump her and find a new girlfriend who respects you. These are very rare traits for men to have these days and chances are, there will be a woman somewhere who wants you more than the last one did.

I've been down voted for having this outlook before on here; which I don't really care about.. But it just goes to show you how there are a lot of negative thinkers around here who still don't seem to get it.

bluehorseinvincible · 2015-07-25T18:56:09+00:00

Yeah dude, RoK hasn't put out a good article in months.

As for Roosh

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

king_of_red_alphas · 2015-07-26T00:13:42+00:00

It's pretty clear that TRP is evolving from a system of analysis to a dogmatic ideology. Obviously, this happens to just about every movement / religion / ideology and TRP will be no different.

TRP has essentially said all it can say about "sexual strategy" and is now branching into peripheral unrelated issues and claiming they are all evidence of X.

Even though many of us came here to basically "get better with women and become better men", a huge part of TRP has thrown in their pet issues and hitched them to the cause.

As TRP gets more dogmatic you see more and more confirmation bias and less self reflection. People try to end legitimate conversations by screaming AWALT or accusing their opponent of being a BP heretic.

Its also probably fair to say that TRP attracts a lot of angry people (understandably) and those people will often scream the loudest and type the most while people actually applying TRP and working shit out in the real world / fucking girls won't be compelled to whine anonymously on the Internet as much.

All that said, it's up to you to find and use the practical information on TRP that will help you live a better life without getting bogged down in anger-hamstering that will likely just make you seethe bitterness.

48LawsOfFlour · 2015-07-25T22:51:21+00:00

I jump on some of the anti-TRP subs every now and then. It's good to get a look at other perspectives, especially the ones that are just "anti" to whatever you are.

Aside from "TRPER BAD" the subs that offer a different perspective than ours aren't very consistent in their messages. It's just a jumble of sarcasm, "witty" comments, and shitposts. TRP has its bad moments echo-chamber-wise but on the whole the community is actually very consistent, self-policing and thoughtful. The message doesn't change from month to month, or from minute to minute.

chewy_dragee · 2015-07-25T19:15:56+00:00

This post is awesome, but unfortunately you are not going to sway the ones already caught in that mindset.

You can even see them in the post replies already.

[deleted] · 2015-07-25T18:56:33+00:00

I totally agree!

Wait a minute...

Suravira · 2015-07-25T18:14:28+00:00

RoK and Roosh are dead, tbh I never gave them much attention anyways, but he's really gotten out of hand.

NightwingTRP · 2015-07-25T18:29:29+00:00

Most of the criticism levelled at TRP has no logical basis or follows any causal links based in principle or fact. It starts from the idea of women being equals and then goes from there. This is poor debating because you base your arguments on an assumption... one in this case which can be challenged. Women are typically physically weaker, typically less intelligent and typically far less emotionally stable. - I fail to see how this is equal.

The second problem tends to come from those who criticise TRP being incapable of understanding nuance or the subtlety of similar yet mutually exclusive points. i.e. they can't reconcile the ideas that believing women are inferior, and also believing they deserve similar basic rights to men such as not being tortured, not being violently assaulted, not being robbed, not being defrauded etc etc (just list laws that apply for the protection of both men and women here.)

That's a fairly broad basis to dismiss a large proportion of the nonsense which disparages TRP. Due to this, there is a fairly large proportion of the basic material on TRP which you should question and evaluate more privately because we've already done that. (It is also why you're told to read the sidebar first before contributing.) If that was not the case, we would be constantly inundated with topics that questioned the basis of TRP (poorly) and it would flood/waste the space of the frontpage.

I've posted on how Debating and Discussion as a man will promote intellectual growth. There may be mere echo chamber guys here... but there's also some independent thinkers. It's down to you to decide who is who.

AEther_Flux · 2015-07-26T01:11:26+00:00

We all have to be careful that we don't snap our necks while sucking our own dicks.

[deleted] · 2015-07-25T19:51:48+00:00

You always need to take a break and try to pretend that the other side of the argument is true. Refusing to entertain an opposing idea just makes you closed-minded.

jx234 · 2015-07-25T19:28:27+00:00

TRP suffers from all the same drawbacks that any system which claims to be able to explain all human behavior - such as Marxism - does. More specifically, any system which is not falsifiable. In science, any example of a case which contradicts a theory refutes that theory. The theory then becomes rubbish and is discarded. Thats why I dislike the use of theory in this context, with its connotations of comprehensive truth. It doesnt help tgat a lot of people here, when they observe something which doesnt fit their model, play it down and suggest it is to an anomaly, or isn't in the right circumstances or something. Nor does it help that the one thing TRP prizes above all else is logic. (See u/NightwingTRP below. Incidentally, he claims that women are typically less intelligent than men. Assuming you use IQ (and that's by no means a perfect way of defining "intelligence", then the average woman is actually the same as the man, but with more very stupid and very clever men.)

What TRP is, is a series of statements and assumptions about men and about women, and their interaction, which, from observing the world, appear to be more accurate than those which have been posited elsewhere, especially those of mainstream liberal society. When it comes to human behaviour, of course it makes sense to draw on evolutionary psychology to a degree in order to explain why men and women choose the partners they do. But theories like that are just simplified models which even their originators admit are of limited relevance today. To say, "women prefer stronger males because at the time our brains evolved it was stronger males who mated with them" is a gross oversimplification. (The premise could be true but the reasoning false and vice versa). Scientists (and I'm one of them) actually don't understand many things. Take hormones for example. We have some idea of how they work, but we haven't fully understood them. The main reason is determining how multiple non static phemomena interact with each other. That's the key word, interaction. The ways in which hormones interact with each other, or different parts of the brain etc.

I recommend purpillpilldebate. Some interesting discussions there.

My main criticism of TRP, by the way is that it does not apply its cynicism about women to men as well. Most men possess as many of the negative traits they ascribe to women.

Vovamas · 2015-07-25T23:36:57+00:00

RoK was the site that alkost turned me away from manosphere. Last time I checked the comment section, there were fanatics saying shariah law would be good in America.

Pathfinder24 · 2015-07-25T20:12:45+00:00

The red pill is most definitely an echo chamber. There are occasionally mod posts about how debate and criticism are banned.

Kinda undermines claims to legitimacy.

unsafeword · 2015-07-26T02:36:24+00:00

Echo chambers serve a legitimate purpose when learning or refining one's understanding of the complex: Echo chambers eliminate distraction. You often have to learn the whole of something in order to properly evaluate and deflect criticism of its early points. A man trying to rediscover what it means to be a man, but doing so with the constant noise and jeering of dissenting blue pills? He's unlikely to succeed.

But the echo chamber is just a starting point.

A man who believes he's approached mastery, but who is uncomfortable entering venues where it's appropriate to debate and defend what he's learned? He's just wanking.

[deleted] · 2015-07-25T22:29:05+00:00

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idontwanttostart · 2015-07-26T00:51:34+00:00

Absolutely. TRP seems a bit of a circlejerk. Downvote away. But a lot of this shit isn't about becoming a better man/person.

I'm probably gay. But what the fuck ever.

Killeurkilleur · 2015-07-26T06:02:33+00:00

Yeah . I see a lot of good posts everyday on this sub but from time to time there's a guy that will come up with :"dont you know women are inferior to men and blah blah blah women are the most evil creatures on earth blah blah blah womens brain are less evolved than men..."the worst thing is those posts will get hundreds of upvote. This sub was about bettering yourself, understanding the female mind now its all :"womenz have ruined my life blah blah blah" i think we can do better than that

jimjackjoe · 2015-07-26T00:17:51+00:00

Can you give some specific examples of behavior you have seen here that is like what you describe, so I can get a better sense of exactly what you mean? Because I find debate is tolerated here, as long is it is a) not totally stupid and b) not off-topic. What is an example of a debate that should have been had but was blocked and/or hated? You might be saying something more nuanced than what I'm thinking about.

ramot1 · 2015-07-26T00:53:24+00:00

I read somewhere that if I can't argue for an opposing point of view, it means that I don't understand it well. Understanding an opposing view seems essential to understanding my own view point.

I admit I don't always follow this idea, but I think everybody would be better for doing so. Would you agree?

awayofthought · 2015-07-26T01:46:09+00:00

Great post, probably the best one this week. This is also becoming a serious problem on asktrp, where only one answer is given that doesn't really help anyone.

stillnoturday · 2015-07-26T01:47:39+00:00

The base of what TRP is, self improvement.

chadchadington · 2015-07-26T02:10:37+00:00

Some argue the first man to "wake up" was Warren Farrell, in so much as he had extensive experience speaking on behalf of feminism until he noticed patterns and changed his approach and became a pariah for doing so--also an author of his beliefs.

People like Roosh become idolized too much. Too many men weakened by the new insights brought to them by TRP look for a new god. Learn, apply and find your new path. I see too much ass-kissing everything these men say as opposed to discourse. Roosh used to be good. I've notice low-levels of racist commentary and misogyny. Plus he seems to be hell bent on creating a brand and profiting as the expense of TRP ideology. Rollo, on the other hand makes profit from his book sales but his price point is low enough as not to exclude people from acquiring his material. Also, he mentions he's not in it for profit and allows all comments (agreeable and dissent) on his website.

Honestly I never understood banning people or downvoting. I see this behavior the same as the FI's attempts at censorship of ideas they don't like. Like a child. "Don't like what I like? I'm not playing with you anymore!"

BlueFreedom420 · 2015-07-26T03:28:35+00:00

There is always going to be an echo chamber/sycophant party in any place of thought and discussion. The real test is leading yourself.

Been reading these forums for about 6 months and I havent seen anything as bad as the shit you see on feminist/SJW forums.

JeanValjean197o · 2015-07-26T05:00:03+00:00

It's hard to avoid echo chambers. People like to congregate around people who think the same and won't challenge their world view.

To be truly informed you must be willing to visit sites that you don't necessarily agree with and who may frame an argument in a way you aren't comfortable with. That means watching both Fox and CNN and MSNBC to gain a complete perspective and if possible foreign news like Al Jazeera or BBC for yet another (or reading them if you prefer).

That said, it's often impossible to engage in a rational and logical discussion. A recent discussion here on TRP between myself and DannyDemotta started with me citing the Consumer Price Index to show how inflation doesn't rise after a minimum wage increase and how "free labor economies" will stagnate and fail and him responding with "filthy liberal" and fuck this and fuck that.

Responding politely to his rant did no good. I should have simply remembered the prime rule of winning any debate.

Rule #1 of winning a debate. Once you have outlined your argument using facts and logic and your opponent has insulted you, attacked your character, or simply says "Nuh Uh" without citing a single reason why, I need only declare victory for his failure to respond cogently and move on.

In this last case I said some things I definitely meant and would be more than happy to back up in person, but which probably aren't very productive to the discussion.

Oh well.

Ralt · 2015-07-26T00:26:39+00:00

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Requi3m · 2015-07-26T01:40:42+00:00

Yeah the mods here in TRP love to threaten to ban people for disagreeing with them. No different then the feminazi subreddits.

a_nus · 2015-07-25T22:19:30+00:00

There is indeed a lot of circlejerking that goes on in here, just like any other well established sub.

waylandertheslayer · 2015-07-25T22:22:03+00:00

There's a great mindset I try to have that is really important: "Not every change is an improvement, but every improvement is a change. You can't become more correct by arguing for something - at most, you make more other people agree. To improve your beliefs, you must change them."

There are probably plenty of places that TRP could be improved. I don't know where they are. But if/when someone finds one, I want to be able to recognise it and change my mind.

Johnny10toes · 2015-07-26T00:40:46+00:00

A book that a lot of us would do well to read is Prometheus Rising. in it he does a good job of pointing out how people use biases to form an opinion and reject any new information. Everyone has a reality and it would do you some good to try to understand the reality of someone else.

thrown1520 · 2015-07-26T01:20:30+00:00

TRP says a woman necessarily rejects a guy who treats her in a friendly manner, because he did treat her in a friendly manner. Nevertheless, TRP is not actually saying that all women hate themselves. TRP says that to a woman, being a friend is qualitatively different than being an intimate partner. TRP assesses feminism as the dominant ideology in western societies like the USA. Feminism has resulted in women having the final power of decision as to whether a relationship will come into being. Women prefer two types of men above all others: alpha and rich, because they are biologically built to prefer that. Since men judge women primarily on looks, the best-looking women are only interested in being with either alpha or rich. This all does not mean that women are the enemy. A lot of the talk on TRP is bravado that is building up a person's ego as they go to try to get their next lay or whatever.

Patriarchy definitely worked better than this shitty hypergamy system. Feminism is a joke that has made exactly zero people happy, men or women. Successful Red-Pillers who talk about having a multiple "plates" etc don't come off happy or content at all.

Dr_HoaxArthurWilmoth · 2015-07-26T01:59:13+00:00

I don't know if it is because it is summer, or if it is due to the huge influx of newcomers, but the last two months have been a down-vote party for any posts that question the validity of a thread.

This is something that might have to be posted every week for rest of summer, and possibly forever.

Skepticism is healthy. Hearsay is usually just that, hearsay. I can't count the number of, "My friend just got divorced and this happened..." threads that are just complete and utter bullshit.

Don't be a sheep, don't spread rumors and take your gossip and up-vote addiction to another thread, men are talking.

ActuallyARaptor · 2015-07-26T02:44:37+00:00

I always called it the 'Gold Effect'

RidleySmith · 2015-07-26T06:43:27+00:00

Yeah I hear what you're saying.

For a long time I just refused to read anything remotely feminist and now I force myself to read an article I come across if it sounds like some blue pill bullshit. It usually is but after reading it I have the opportunity to challenge my views and see if they have a point, they almost never do, but it's a useful exercise.

nzgs · 2015-07-26T08:32:01+00:00

I think being a follower of a person rather than a way of life is never a good idea. The problem with RoK is that while there is a lot of good content on there, it's almost like a personality cult for Roosh, and the guy is kinda weird. He embarrassed himself on that tv show also.

leodoestheopposite · 2015-07-26T12:41:02+00:00

TL;DR: RoK and blogs in general are not places where the host welcomes ideas contrary to their own. If you disagree strart your own blog.

I have been in the blog business for over a decade, and I disagree with you.

Imagine you're in your parents' living room, talking about the upcoming Thanksgiving dinner, logistics, time, who's bringing the apple pie and who's bringing the pumpkin pie; size of the turkey, beverages . . . the works. All in a sudden the door opens wide and a self-professed vegan-health nuts comes is and starts telling you about the benefits of substituting your turkey with TofuTurkey, the dangers of salt and sugar, calories counts, and animal cruelty.

The proper answer would be: "Who invited you?"

RoK is a blog, he has a message and a philosophy that he is promoting, and welcomes a friendly conversation; but it's his living room, therefore his rules. As a guest if you are steering the conversation in a direction that is not welcome by the host, do not be surprised if you are considered "persona non grata".

The same for this sub that is steered by both the moderators and the majority of users. Once I was temporarily banned for 30 days and I accepted such decision gracefully even though I didn't fully agree (the issue was "quality of post").

You do have the right of Freedom os Speech, and you can express so by running your own blog and/or your own sub; reference the posts that you disagree with, and even make fun of them is you're into parody.

But "intruding" into someone else territory pushing your controversial agenda, uninvited, and expected to have the red carpet rolled in front of you when you were not explicitly invited to do so is not polite at best, and arrogant at worst.

Running a blog or a forum takes time, effort and often money; that's the reason behind the 1-9-90 rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule_(Internet_culture) , it's a lot easier to parachute with an easy comment that it is to lead a conversation.

So you got banned? It's OK. Do you have your own message to spread that you believe takes TRP message to higher levels? Great! Start your own blog and since you are at it, start your own sub too. I for one will be the first one to congratulate you in taking matters into your own hands, and I will follow and read your writings for a while, then decide whether it's for me or no. If asked for feedback I might even give it to you.

By posting in here by default you accept "feedbacK" by way of our comments, you must accept that, and you do whatever you want with it. At the same time if the mods decide that this comment of mine is not worthy and delete it and ban me temporarily, I will accept that too. And downvotes are also something that I am consciously exposing myself to. It's all part of the way this sub works.

razorwan · 2015-07-26T12:58:22+00:00

I see a lot of people here who put down people who do put a moral value on sex. I was raised to be modest in all walks of life, including sex. If I'm to hold women to a standard to being chaste, then I won't be a hypocrite about it. If you want to pursue women and be a manwhore, that's your prerogative, but don't disqualify a guy as being RP if he doesn't pursue pussy like a commodity. I am waiting for marriage, and I'll do my best to make sure I don't wed a slut who's been on the CC.

I_is_the_best · 2015-07-25T23:23:11+00:00

I'd say that TRP is like scientific method applied to social interactions, SMP and life in general. At its core it's about being a critical thinker.

Your post is like saying so all scientists think that gravity exists - fuck that shit - it's an echo chamber!!

Elim101 · 2015-07-26T02:01:24+00:00

Care to provide examples of that happening here? Mods banning people for disagreement, perhaps? Or is this just an abstract, borderline-concern trolling post?

hebola4lyfe · 2015-07-26T11:08:37+00:00

the infiltration in this sub is quite obvious by now ; this thread is a great example .

favours_of_the_moon · 2015-07-25T18:44:14+00:00

RoK can be like a "Bonzai Kitten" parody site. I like it though. LOL

Derbi50 · 2015-07-25T22:07:58+00:00

This is as big a problem as it was (if not worse than) before the civil war.

Basically people today can go through months without being exposed to an unbiased (relatively) point of view.

You turn on your cable news in the morning, drive to work with your talk radio, and come home and watch your slanted news again, then browse your slanted websites.

There is no more Cronkite or Murrow to give it to you straight.

There used to be a law saying you couldn't lie and call it news. That was repealed in the 80s I think.

If the average American was a critical thinking even minded individual this sort of propaganda self brainwashing stuff wouldn't work, but most Americans have an 8th grade reading level and think dinosaurs and people cohabited the Earth simultaneously.

neptronix · 2015-07-26T05:52:45+00:00

I've seen return of 'kings' acting more like little princesses and called them out on that behavior more than once. That earned me a ban.

RoK seems more like the male version of radical feminists. They act like it.. they bitch like it.. they blow shit out of proportion.. then they can't take the heat when you point it out. I don't respect them and i think they do a great job making the rest of us who aren't assholes look awful.

Fuck 'em.

Redpillc0re · 2015-07-26T12:20:48+00:00

I have to say , this has become the most disappointing thread i ve read here in a long time. Almost 80% of the comments are about how swjs and feminists are not wrong and nawalt. Well good for you kids, here's to hoping that one day, maybe it might work for you, but don't hold ur breath, swjs are not your friend. I am marking the 120000 users as the limit when the main message of TRP has been watered down so much it's no different than the rest of reddit.

I get it that skepticism should be the default mindset, but people here are too easily swayed to be able to be skeptics.

Angry_Landwhale · 2015-07-25T18:56:29+00:00

Most of what we do here is heuristics. Red pill is about developing a mindset of strength and embracing a master morality.

What you are talking about is subversive. So much of the lefty/Marxist derivative believers only care for rationalism or logic when it attacks whatever opposes the world view they hold.

Masculinity is spiritual. You're trying to tear it down with technical and semantic arguments. Why are you doing that? An echo chamber is necessary when everything and everyone outside of it does not care for reality.

Smitty6 · 2015-07-26T12:34:29+00:00

Agree. Open minded skepticism is the way to live.

Title	The dangers of echo chambers
Author	lost_2_apathy
Upvotes	529
Comments	207
Date	July 25, 2015 6:02 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/3ekvmn/the_dangers_of_echo_chambers/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/the-dangers-of-echo-chambers.34984 https://theredarchive.com/post/34984

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