Does love even exist at this point?

TheGreasyPole · 2018-03-20T10:01:16+00:00

Love exists... it’s the emotion that correlated with the “pair bond instinct” in other animals (because when humans feel an instinct we call that an emotion).

This definition of Love is different from Lust (The “I want to fuck that human right now” emotion) and Limerence (The “I’m going to DIE if I don’t get her, because she’s so perfect!” emotion).

Love is the “we are happy with each other and want to be together for a very long time” emotion. A pair bond.

It may not exist in the way you’ve always thought of it. Because love/pair bonding is not “magical”. It’s just a real world thing. This means it’s conditional and that males and females feel it in different circumstances and for slightly different reasons (although they feel the same thing when they do feel it) among other things.

So. It’s there, but it’s not what you thought it was. This has downsides, but it also has benefits (e.g. that because it’s not magic and it is a real world phenomenon you can understand it and “create” it relatively easily once you understand it).

I wrote an OP on it once, and I’m damned if I’m going to write out the whole thing again, so if you want to know more here it is....

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/38hyes/shall_we_discuss_what_love_really_is_what_do_you/

wtknight · 2018-03-20T08:44:01+00:00

I'm an introvert and my wife is even more introverted than me. I'm not sure why you have the idea that no woman will ever really love you just because you are an introvert, because there are plenty of women out there who prefer quiet, introverted guys, although it might be more difficult to find them.

DaphneDK42 · 2018-03-20T05:44:43+00:00

And every time I think of approaching a girl all I see in my head is her judging me, classifying me as beta or alpha, judging me like I'm some sort of accessory she's willing to test out before deciding wether to fully buy or not.

You also judge women. As well you should. And women should judge men. Why would you want women to just hitch up with the first and best which crosses her way. Love comes after the filtering.

wub1234 · 2018-03-20T05:38:20+00:00

Yea I think the red pill ruined love for me, or love never really existed in the first place.

Stop reading these bullshit pages, including this one, spend less time on the Internet. It's literally doing you no good whatsoever.

shoup88 · 2018-03-20T10:04:19+00:00

Yes, love exists. You may not have personally experienced yet (hopefully you will some day), but countless others have. There are couples all over the world who just enjoy ordering in Thai food and watching Sunday night tv. Those moments of togetherness are not about sex or money. They’re about comfort, stability and just generally enjoying each other’s company.

Having said this, love is an abstract concept and means different things to different people. How could anyone convince you they’re in love? What would we have to say?

VermiciousKnidzz · 2018-03-20T13:46:57+00:00

i think it does. you just have to meet the right person.

i think people expect love to be the honeymoon phase for the entire relationship and are often surprised to find that real LTR love is more of a mutual decision than an infatuation that you wander into.

I am kind of bitter that whatever woman I end up marrying it will be because I would be a "beta provider" and I would marry her just because I want sex

no offense, i think that you're not bitter but paranoid.

most prejudices are best fought by getting to know the people you're prejudice against.

you say you have very close relationships with men. what's holding you back from having those same kinds of relationships with women?

Jammerly1 · 2018-03-20T05:46:23+00:00

That’s the downside of the redpill that doesn’t get talked about much here. You will constantly start noticing every single manipulation and power dynamic and that will severely decrease your ability to trust people or be happy. I sympathize.

The best case scenario is that you take in the good things about TRP and use it to create the life you want, be the person you want to be, and not beat yourself up too hard for making bad choices. Be a person you can respect, regardless of other people’s oinions. Try and remember that the world is abundant, and life really has no rules. Many people try and fail numerous times before they succeed. Love is no different.

Equalina · 2018-03-20T07:09:54+00:00

This place is cynical and often takes a bleak view of men, women and relationships - talking in mostly negative generalizations. They’re right for a portion of people - but for me through lots of travel and meeting people from all over the world, most people are not as shallow and easy to pigeon hole as these subs (and pop culture media) suggest.

I know it’s cliched advice, but try looking outside the internet and media for examples of the kinds of people you want to meet. Find a hobby that you can socialize with - like a sport, hiking, theatre, music, photography...there are so many. Try to resist looking at the kind of media that reinforces the shallowness of some people - there are great YouTube channels and Instagram accounts of people living authentic, interesting and fulfilling lives that are not shallow at all. It’s so easy to see the negative everywhere once you discover narratives like TRP that paint women and men in a certain way. There are plenty of examples to back it up - but there are just as many that don’t. Look for them and, as corny as this sounds, look into your own deeper consciousness and find the truth: you don’t have to conform to these stereotypes, you have choices. Even if sometimes giving in to your shallow nature seems the most easy and appealing thing, it’s far more rewarding to shake it off and seek out something deeper. Love certainly exists - don’t give up on it and join the cynics, that’s the easy path.

rpwthrowaway2016 · 2018-03-20T08:37:35+00:00

If love is not real because both parties are using each other for sex or resources, then I posit that friendship isn't real either - it only exists because it's advantageous for members of a social species to form bonds and cooperate. There are plenty of animal species in which friendship does not exist. Your own friendships would not exist if both parties weren't getting something out of it, whether it be socialization, fun, activity partners, a listening ear, whatever. It's transactional in its own way.

I would marry her just because I want sex

If you don't want to, then don't. Look for someone you like as a person.

my introverted nature will probably prevent me from even making friends

If you have issues making any friends, your problems are bigger than romantic relationships tbh.

I'm not religious, so I don't think there's any grand cosmic meaning to life, love or whatever our brains like to attach 'meaning' to. At the end of day, we are imperfect organisms who happened to evolve this way with a whole bunch of biological quirks, and we have to accept it for what it is.

disagreeable_intent · 2018-03-20T10:39:02+00:00

You should at least get your heart broken first.

I'm red pill, but at least I learnt it the hard way.

If you're too afraid to go out and live, and test what you have "learnt" on the internet then you're in no position to judge women and be so certain that you're right.

every time I think of approaching a girl all I see in my head is her judging me, classifying me as beta or alpha, judging me like I'm some sort of accessory she's willing to test out before deciding wether to fully buy or not.

Yea I think the red pill ruined love for me,

There's people who are red pill. And there are people like you who use the red pill to justify inaction instead of admitting you're a coward. If you really deeply believed TRP you would have no fear.

DebatePony · 2018-03-20T12:28:29+00:00

Well, love exists for me and my husband. We're best friends as well as lovers (I kinda hate that word but I'm gonna use it anyway).

Can't comment about other people's relationships though.

And every time I think of approaching a girl all I see in my head is her judging me, classifying me as beta or alpha, judging me like I'm some sort of accessory she's willing to test out before deciding whether to fully buy or not.

Ummm, duh. It's called "vetting" and it's to help someone find a valuable/worthwhile mate.

Are they attractive?
Do they make you laugh?
Similar values/morals/world views?
Are they a bum?
Do you guys like to do the same/similar things?
How do they get along with their family/how their family treats you
Many, many varied and different things depending on the individual

You do the same thing, what is it about these chicks that makes you think about approaching.

RepresentativeData · 2018-03-21T04:33:22+00:00

I feel the same, except now I easily approach. Don't think of introversion as your nature. Have no nature. Your nature is self evident and it is nothing at all. Adapt.

I freed up some nerves by taking cold showers. Hot showers are what I was used to, so I took cold ones. The strange courage it takes to just jump into a steady stream of cold water after you've gotten so used to the heat, should be applicable to approaching women. If you take hot showers, that doesn't mean it's your nature. Don't let not approaching girls be your nature either. You decide what you do. Your willpower has to be greater than your anxiety.

The bad news though, is that I've been rejected by every girl I've cold approached, and they probably judged me as beta or creepy. Maybe I'll get better, but I feel good now that I know I got the balls to do it and don't feel stuck with the label "introvert". Don't let it be an excuse and don't let it trap you.

whitebunny87 · 2018-03-20T07:47:56+00:00

If you spend your time reading angry terp rants you're going to find "evidence" of it everywhere. When you have a hammer everything looks like a nail etc.

My husband and I love each other. Like actual real, mutually respectful love. Sure I like that he looks after me and he likes to have sex with me but it goes way beyond that. If you want a healthy relationship, look at people who have them. Stop looking at the people who have failed at them on TRP.

lezze · 2018-03-20T05:18:52+00:00

I think love exists but it'd not something eternal or perfect like some people think. You can love your partner but still find others sexually attractive (no matter how insanely attractive your partner is), it doesn't mean you love him less.

You need to work on your self esteem and stop seeing things in black or white, "alpha or beta", it's not healthy.

sublimemongrel · 2018-03-20T14:48:02+00:00

Oh man, RP dogma is holding you back. Yes love exists, absolutely. You’re young, right? If you never even give it a try you’ll never experience the joys of love. Yes it’s a RISK, because heartbreak is real too. But one at least for me that is worth it. If you never even give yourself the chance to experience it, you’re willingly missing out on a wonderful part of being human IME.

blackedoutfast · 2018-03-20T22:49:30+00:00

love is real. even genuine, unconditional love. but that doesn't mean those people would automatically be perfect romantic/sexual partners.

humans are flawed and imperfect creatures. the ones who truly love you unconditionally, those who would forgive any of your misdeeds, those who would sacrifice themselves and would literally rip their own heart out of their chest and give it to you if you needed one are also capable of hurting you and breaking your heart in unimaginably painful ways.

but your real problem isn't love or good women or the lack thereof in your life. the personal fulfillment and inner peace that you're looking for can only come from within you.

BiggerDthanYou · 2018-03-20T07:40:15+00:00

My love for my bros feels more genuine than the love between males and females.

Are you sure if you are even romantically interested in women?

And why do you even care what TeRPs say about relationships? The opinion of such bitter people doesn't tell you much about how relationship usually are. They may claim that it's just female nature that's the problem, but they also make it really hard to love and trust them.

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passepar2t · 2018-03-20T12:23:30+00:00

There's definitely such a thing as "being in love." Happens all the time, often temporarily.

"Love" as in a transcendent state, wherein two partners accept each other completely and have a lasting mutual reverence and affection, not as much.

Long term partnerships are more about inertia, attempts at mutual respect and the art of compromise than love.

daveofmars · 2018-03-20T13:34:09+00:00

TRP never ruined love for you, man. The approach anxiety you feel, the bitterness about "being beta", feeling that women will never truly love you, that's all internal to you, and TRP wouldn't have changed that either way. At best, you can accuse TRP of making you aware of these things, but wouldn't you rather know than stay ignorant?

I'm willing to bet that you're a man in late teens/early twenties. The bad news is that every 20-something guy, especially the reflective "introverted" ones are very perceptive about where they are in society, and so they can get a lot of angst and anxiety when they think about that. The good news though is that you have a lot of potential and several years of experimentation left in order to turn these thoughts around and get a more nuanced appreciation for the opposite sex.

You don't want to fall into a pit of resentment because holding internal resentment will subconsciously ruin every approach you make and will sabotage every relationship, thereby preventing you from finding the fulfillment you seek.

Use TRP as a way to meet many girls so that you can find the 1/100 that you really click with. Use TRP to inform yourself about the worst case scenarios that can come out of women, but in the end realize that women are human and that humans are just killer apes. Love will come when you learn to appreciate women/humans as they are, faults and all.

Whisper · 2018-03-20T18:23:47+00:00

Define "love".

bagoonga · 2018-03-21T02:05:32+00:00

People try to explain love with their layman perspectives of it as a pair bond or some animal instinct, but it's really not that simple. No field of science understands exactly what love is, how it works, or why it exists. TRP tries to explain everything with their layman evopsych, which is highly dubious considering evopsych in universities isn't science since it is made up of speculations which can't be experimentally examined.

The fact that a trait exists doesn't mean it was naturally selected for. Just because you can think of a hypothetical reason a trait or behavior exists (for example, love) doesn't mean that's the way it evolved. Biology operates by incredibly complex rules we don't even understand the level of complexity of. Our brains are the most complex object in the universe and we barely understand how they work.

And as far as scientists understand about biology and evolution, traits don't really evolve "for" anything. What leads up to a trait existing and the purpose(s) the trait is used for is a complex combination of factors, almost always with unanswered questions. Sometimes what seems like something specific and purposeful is merely a result of multiple circumstances ending up somewhere specific.

For example, fungi transport their nutrients through threads of cells called hyphae, and many fungi grow their hyphae around the roots of plants and exchange nutrients with them. If you looked at a fungi with its hyphae roots and don't look deeper, you could easily argue that the hyphae evolved for their relationship with plant roots as they act in a similar way and have a mutually-beneficial relationship with them.

However, the development of hyphae in fungi does not simply occur in relationship with plant roots. For example, the white mold you see on old wet bread is the hyphae and reproductive structures of a fungus. It doesn't occur with plant roots.

The point is you can look at some hypothetically plausible idea that looks like it comes from science, but when more examples are presented it falls apart.

So our ideas of love come from experiencing it and from what we infer from others' experiences. While speculations about animal instincts can sound plausible, they are unfounded because they are not verified by experiment. It's not like you looked into the minds of countless organisms as they evolved to reach us.

In my opinion, it's broader than simply bonding. It applies to every bit of joy you experience, and it occurs on many different levels and in different ways that can't easily be defined. You can love a song, food, the weather, a person. You can love temporarily, and you can have long-term love. I don't think everyone experiences it in the same way, but I don't think it's made-up.

This may not be a definite enough answer, but I don't think anyone really knows. I also just really don't like layman distortion of science. People take their simplistic understandings of things that are only even loosely related to science and act like that loose relation bolsters their opinions. They act like they can explain phenomena that are actually big mysteries to actual scientists with their simplistic layman reasoning.

gasparddelanuit · 2018-03-21T02:22:41+00:00

The love portrayed by popular culture is an illusion, but if the people involved buy into that illusion, a relationship can work on that basis for as long as they buy into the illusion. Once reality starts entering the picture, things can become more shaky, unless those involved are able to overcome their disillusionment and adjust well enough to new expectations.

Ordinate1 · 2018-03-21T04:22:06+00:00

Did it ever?

Romantic love is not universal in human society; it is particular to times and places... and we may be moving out of one such.

Willow-girl · 2018-03-21T12:30:30+00:00

Does love exist? Yup, sure does. Next question?

Priene · 2018-03-21T13:49:25+00:00

Nope. The only love that exists is the bond between parent and child, and owner and dog. Women love you for what you make them feel. If you can make the clit hard, they love you. Men love women as long as the woman's waistline looks at 30, what it looked like at 17, and if they have options they'll cheat and dump the woman no matter how attractive their girlfriend/wife is, and how much she fucks them.

xtsv · 2018-03-21T15:42:17+00:00

I'm not sure, everything in modern society points to no (people getting into FWB relationships with the sole intention of having sex without falling in love/developing feelings for each other.) And everyone being extremely avert when it comes to feelings.

I think modern society has taken a few steps back regarding "lovelife" and travelled all the way back to our hunter-gatherer societies. Things have not been worse than now in a long time.

IsaGuz · 2018-03-22T23:02:18+00:00

"However, I became convinced that women just want money and attention while men just want sex, and to me this is really making me hate society as a whole, because to me this is shallow as fuck, for both sexes."

Uh... dude, that's hard.

It depends on the person.

I'm female, but since you're a guy, I'm going to defend the guys here.

Have a look at Bill Gates' wife, Melinda.

At Mark Zuckerberg's wife, Priscilla.

You'll see there are LOTS of rich men that could have bought a harem of women who looked like Megan Fox, but married average pretty women with either degrees, intelligence (Melinda Gates was an executive at Microsoft and now she works with the foundation), or like Talula Riley in 2008 for Elon Musk, provide very much needed emotional support (Riley may be a bad example since she's steaming hot, yet some dolts criticise Musk for having married her when he could "afford" hotter).

Love does exist, but:

It's not romantic. If you have a look at the romantic writers like Lord Byron or Percy Shelley, they were NOT examples of long term working relationships. Byron was particularly a great bastard to his wife Augusta.
The chemical love in which you feel in a pink bubble of joy may last from 4 months to a year. After that, Love, is completely different.
Love is not looking at each other in awe. It's looking together in the same direction. That's why Bill Gates married an executive officer at Microsoft and now they work together in philanthropy. They have a shared path. There is no love without a shared path.
Love is, again, unromantic. If your significant other doesn't eventually become your best friend, you're doing something wrong.
Love doesn't feel as the crush when it's "I must be close to you 24/7". The other person becomes like your arm. You don't look at your arm or kidney in awe, you don't feel dizzy when you see it. You just feel incomplete without it.

So... basically, it's hard to get. You have to be lucky.

Even the toughest Love will break if the life paths diverge. Look at Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston. He wanted to have kids (lots), she didn't (hasn't had them yet). That couple was meant to break eventually: for him, not having the kids would have been the sacrifice of a really important, paramount need. For her, forcing herself to have them would have been a mortgage of her time for the rest of her life.

The problem with long term relationships is that you both choose a life path and choose to walk it together. BUt you must be very aware that if people change and their life paths become so different that they must diverge because following one would destroy the other's life... then it's over.

And no one, no one, NO ONE can ever promise or swear that you'll make it. No one.

I grew up in an unhappy marriage and my parents ended up divorcing (dad left us: good riddance). To be honest, I am surprised that I've been 20 years with my first boyfriend. I didn't expect it would happen like this. BUt it did.

Long term relationships require maturity. Teenagers feel the biggest of crushes, but it's not realistic to try to make that last: I don't think it's a good idea to marry before 26-28... and 26 is a bit too soon (soon enough to live together and then marry at about 28). You have to have matured, you have to know a bit about your life path...

Does love exist? Indeed. Can I promise it will work for you, for life? No. No one can.

Actually, it's EXTREMELY unrealistic to promise anyone you'll love them forever. You can try your best to make the relationship work, hence the public signing of the social contract. But ultimately, it doesn't depend on you. If my husband has a sudden revelation and decides tomorrow to go to meditate to the Himalayas, or to fight with the Kurds against ISIS, I'll wish him luck and the best, but I'm not joining him and I'm getting a divorce. He would do the same if it were me. We knew it when we signed up the contract.

The wedding ring is not magic and will not make miracles.

Have this into account, and provided two reasonable people who are able to admit mistakes get together, things can work, may work. Will they? You can only say "this WAS love". Never "this WILL be".

GridReXX · 2018-03-20T06:57:09+00:00

The girl who laughs naturally with you and you naturally with her.. and you both also find each other attractive or valuable... call it love and be happy.

ContrasexualWoman · 2018-03-20T07:59:32+00:00

I don't agree with the red pill about the "wamen are inferior" thing because I think it's dumb and that there's more to be looked on that.

Well that's mighty kind of you, McCree. 😉

However, I became convinced that women just want money and attention while men just want sex, and to me this is really making me hate society as a whole, because to me this is shallow as fuck, for both sexes.

But you know this isn't true already from the statements of some of the women here and your own comments in this very thread. You said elsewhere that you want to be friends first and lovers second, that you want a woman not only to have sex with but to "hang at the mall, play ping pong, and watch Netflix". Sorry dude, it seems you... and a lot of other men and women... are less shallow than you want to believe.

I'm a guy, a relatively introverted one, and I admit that I am kind of bitter that whatever woman I end up marrying it will be because I would be a "beta provider" and I would marry her just because I want sex.

Then don't settle for a woman who values those things, look for a woman who loves you as a close friend and sexual companion. We are out there, I promise. I refuse to believe I'm a "unicorn", there are more who share this mindset. Also, unless you're having kids, don't get married.

The whole thing is just a mess, I value my male friends because they value me for who I am and I value them because of who they are. My love for my bros feels more genuine than the love between males and females.

I love and value my friends for the fact they are as individuals too, and yeah they're currently all men. But if I had true female friends, I'd feel the same about them. Join clubs, Meetups, hobby groups, etc to meet like-minded women if you want. See what kind of relationships and friendships come from that.

I guess I'm sad that the closest thing that I wanted was to have a female that is a friend first and a lover second to have a chance at this sort of connection, but my introverted nature will probably prevent me from even making friends.

Why? A lot of introverted women aren't fond of extroverted men, especially if they're the loud, partying kind. I know I would have a difficult time being friends with a dude who likes going to clubs or bars, dancing, drinking, beach parties, etc because those venues are rather anxiety inducing. I prefer men who are introverted like me, like going to plays/musicals or museums or hiking, and enjoy playing videogames or breaking out new boardgames on a Friday night or seeing the newest Marvel movie then grabbing a cheap dinner together where we each pay. Don't settle for someone who's the opposite of what you like! Then both of you will just be miserable.

And every time I think of approaching a girl all I see in my head is her judging me, classifying me as beta or alpha, judging me like I'm some sort of accessory she's willing to test out before deciding wether to fully buy or not.

Stop. Cease. Desist. Most women don't know anything about TRP or alpha/beta stuff, and while they may be judging you it's not like that. If you meet a woman who obviously is judging you in that way, just leave. Tell her it was nice to see her and walk away. C'mon man... recognize that you have worth as a person. If someone can't see it or they want to preemptively toss you aside, you're better off without them anyway. Remember, there's plenty of fish in the sea. You read TRP... where's your abundance mentality? Where's your confidence? Where's your self-esteem and knowledge that you're awesome in your own way regardless of what any woman thinks? Let me tell you, I got much better at dating when I realized these things about myself and now I'm in a polyamourous LTR with two absolutely amazing men that I approached myself. (Yeah, I know TRP is supposed to help men, but I think it's good advice for tomboys as well.)

Besides, part of judging a person is figuring out if they're good for you or not. You should definitely be judging her at the same time as she's judging you. If you both judge in each other's favor...hey, you're on your way to a potential friendship or relationship! That's what you want, right? So get out there and judge someone based on whether you'd like them as a friend and/or lover.

Yea I think the red pill ruined love for me, or love never really existed in the first place.

I promise you it exists. I promise there are other women out there who aren't hypergamous or attention whores or just want your resources/money. Likewise, there are men who don't just want to fuck a woman then leave, they actually enjoy doing friend stuff together. Hell, most of my friends are married and they still call me up to go see movies and we go to each other's houses every weekend to eat snacks and play D&D...no sex is needed for friendships, as you know because I really doubt you and your friends fuck. Not judging if you do though, bisexuality is fine in my book obviously.

Take the parts of the Red Pill that actually help you. Leave the rest behind. Be aware of things like "shit tests" but don't over think every single sentence the opposite sex says and try to dissect "what it means" if a gal you're dating asks if you want vanilla or mint ice cream. Not everyone is a manipulative fuckface or calculating asshole, and that goes for both sexes. Don't settle!

newName543456 · 2018-03-21T00:06:14+00:00

Love exists as a string of chemical reactions in your brain. Similar reactions can be gotten using certain psychoactive substances.

DOSGAMES · 2018-03-20T06:15:43+00:00

Even at the academic level, the study human kinship behavior is a social science, it lacks precision and is subjective .

RP at its best, is a shoddy attempt to explain kinship and mating by focusing heavily on the unconscious mind and how it colors our thoughts and desires.

Really RP isn’t about facts. People aren’t drawn to RP because of its ‘logic’, they get sucked into it because of its emotional appeal.

Yes, RP makes a few decent points about power structures/hierarchy and their affect on mating. But these ideas aren’t new, most social animals rely on these things to structure a population’s procreation.

But all that is boring biology. RP grazes over that stuff and rushes to the juicy bits, the power fantasy and women shaming.

Maikowski2 · 2018-03-21T08:27:41+00:00

I never experienced love nor ever was loved by anybody so I don't know, it doesn't exist for me. I was in a specific "in love" state for a few seconds or minutes when I had few oneitis throughout my life but I doubt it would be called "love" by most ordinary people (who are in love).

I am content with being alone.

Title	Does love even exist at this point?
Author	McFuckYouCree
Upvotes	15
Comments	124
Date	March 20, 2018 5:07 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/85q8um/does_love_even_exist_at_this_point/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/does-love-even-exist-at-this-point.263185 https://theredarchive.com/post/263185

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