As a women who may be a wife and mother some day, this thought NEVER occurred to me. What do you men have to say about this issue?

alendiel · 2012-05-02T14:52:23+00:00

I think I've done this all too many times as a babysitter and to my own brother who has two children. I always go straight to the mom because it is instilled in me to think that the mom is the primary caregiver and the dad is just kinda there to be an extra support for their kid. After reading this article I'm shocking myself. Dad's care just as much about their kids as moms do and it is unfair of me to think "We don't need you to be part of the conversation, Dad. We've got this covered." As if the mom knows any better. This makes me feel bad.

Also Title Edit: As a woman***

leprendun · 2012-05-02T14:55:02+00:00

Exclusion of men from parenting decisions is so prevalent in American society as to be practically ubiquitous. I am a gay man currently in the middle of the adoption process with my husband, and we have struggled to find parenting resources actually directed to men. Parenting blogs and forums are sickeningly focused on "mommies," and often dismiss men as impediments to parents rather than co-equals. Most parenting books are equally bad. Sometimes it's not even blatant sexism, but just an annoying assumption that mommies are the primary caregiver, and when men help out they should be praised for stepping up. The extent to which this occurs is depressing, and I've been super sensitive to it because of the conspicuous lack of women in my domestic life! I empathize with all you single dads.

Popular-Uprising- · 2012-05-02T16:40:15+00:00

[permanently deleted]

InfinitelyThirsting · 2012-05-02T15:10:30+00:00

I think it's true in my experience. But I understand why it happens. People act according to the patterns they are familiar with, and mothers are still usually in charge of young children.

In my experience, many mothers want to be in charge of the children. They assert themselves as the authority and push the fathers into a secondary role (which many fathers are happy to accept). It's called maternal gatekeeping.

InfallibleBiship · 2012-05-02T16:49:59+00:00

I'm a dad, and yes, it is commonly assumed that I am not very involved with my kids, that I am less capable of caring for them than a woman, and that I am not the decision maker when it comes to parental decisions.

alendiel · 2012-05-02T16:22:55+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Rex9 · 2012-05-02T17:06:58+00:00

This is 100% normal. Healthcare professionals, Teachers (especially teachers), coaches, parents of their friends, and lastly, the Family Court System. All have treated me with varying levels of either contempt, or plain failure to acknowledge that I even exist. With my ex-wife being a teacher, our children's teachers have never once contacted me in the 6 years since we divorced. I have been nice. I have been assertive. Everything short of "Keep me in the loop you prejudiced bitch!". Nothing works.

I am trying so hard to let go my anger. Every year it gets worse. Worst yet is coming in a couple years when my daughter hits high school - where my ex teaches.

UnoriginalMike · 2012-05-02T17:42:24+00:00

Went through this. My, now, ex-wife wasn't working so she went to most of the drs appts. I would go to any of them I could make and try and get caught up. I would get talked over, ignored, talked down to, and when I forced them to pay attention they were extremely rude and made it quite apparent that I did not count.

Mind you, I am in the medical field, I understand most of the stuff they are saying but I had big holes I wanted filled in. I am still in the dark about much of my son's condition.

2012-05-02T17:44:32+00:00

Modern feminism pushed to get women out of the home and into the workplace/culture/public discourse. This is great...

Sadly, men are still viewed as providers of wealth. Workhorses...despite the growing number of single and stay-at-home fathers.

The perception of men as caregivers hasn't caught up with reality yet. It's very harmful to men and children to think this way.

I have been a victim of old laws concerning custody along these lines. My ex left me while still pregnant. Once that was sealed and she filed for child support and paternity, despite my repeated requests to be more involved, etc., I was doomed. The family court in her area thinks anything more than 9-12 hours per week that I spend with my daughter until she's two years could could be HARMFUL for her.

SpeakToTheSky · 2012-05-02T16:50:56+00:00

We talk about this a lot here.

Feminists have actually pushed a lot of policy and legislation that makes mothers the "supreme caretaker" while on the other hand claiming the Patriarchy "forces" caretaker responsibilities on women.

It is one of the greatest hypocrisies within Feminism.

2012-05-02T17:55:46+00:00

Yeah, this. They'll deal with you if they have no other choice, such as Mom ran off to another town and married someone else and is now playing mommy to a kid not her own, while only seeing her own two sons for a few hours, about twice a year. THEN, when there is no mom in the picture for them to default to, the father gets a modicum of suspicious respect.

Popular-Uprising- · 2012-05-02T18:06:26+00:00

Doctors, nurses and baby sitters don’t always pay attention to me, and sometimes dodge my questions entirely. Some of them have cut me off midsentence, and they often speak directly to my wife, even though I’m standing right there.

That's when you cut them off entirely and tell them that you will no longer need their services. Don't stand for this crap. Stop being a doormat.

2012-05-02T21:23:20+00:00

As a recent father(my daughter is now 10 months old) I can completely confirm and empathize with the article. It can sometimes be a major chore to get an answer out of doctors or nurses regarding the health and care of a child, let alone gain eye contact to make sure they are even acknowledging my presence. Meanwhile they are thoroughly engaged with my wife(when she has the time to go with us to the doctor visits) and even go out of their way to provide a variety of resources to her.

Both my wife and I have expressed frustrations with how society handles(or doesn't handle) fathers, especially stay at home fathers. And I may be a misogynist just for pointing it out. rolls eyes /sigh

Tralan · 2012-05-03T00:16:28+00:00

According to the general masses, men are nothing more than sperm donors as far as the child is really concerned. A woman carries the child to term, and that's a feat in and of itself. But we forget that there are fathers/father-figures who are around during this time also. We like to see women as single-handedly conceiving, incubating, and bringing the baby to term. Mothers are the strongest humans alive, amiright? the man who was around, doing his part, gets pushed to the background. Nevermind dealing with mood swings (you think that's a stereotype? Hang out with a pregnant lady for 9 months and tell me how much of a stereotype it is. It isn't pleasant), waking up as often in the middle of the night, and overall trying to just be there for their partner. That is also a full time job, but is never accredited.

A child has 2 parents. If one runs out (it happens with BOTH men and women), that's one issue, but to those who stay, you are both equal parents. This "Mother is more important" bullshit has to stop.

tedtutors · 2012-05-03T00:43:45+00:00

Divorced dad here. Not only does this happen, it can be used against dads in court hearings to further prove that they aren't capable parents.

Like many in the discussion here, I attended as many doctor appointments and school meetings as I could, missing only a few for work crises. I'd get ignored by administrators, or even worse, when I asked a question or made a point they would turn to my (then) wife for confirmation.

During the bitter and contentious divorce my wife portrayed me as an absentee parent and completely uninvolved. A CFI asked me to produce testimonials about my parenting, with a list of acceptable sources: teachers, school and program administrators, health care providers. Guess what? They all said that my wife handled everything and I was not involved in raising the kids.

memymineown · 2012-05-02T15:07:20+00:00

In most ways men are the second sex.

wwwhistler · 2012-05-02T19:04:35+00:00

although my daughter is now 30 i remember when she was little. i was the primary caregiver ( i am a guy by the way). i worked the swing shift while taking care of my daughter during the day. (and no, i did not really sleep until she started school at the age of 5) i noticed at the time that i was often ignored as the father. while i stood next to my wife, after i had mentioned that i was the primary caregiver the doctor, nurse, whoever would direct their questions to her. she would then ask me, i would tell her and she would then repeat everything i just said. you would have thought that after the first question they would have started to address me directly but that almost never happened.

alendiel · 2012-05-02T19:58:31+00:00

How do you all feel about baby-naming traditions? It would seem that parents don't really compromise on naming anymore, that it is seen as solely the mother's right to name the child. This is something that worries me because I want to have children some day, and I want my boys to have awesome names...

2012-05-02T20:26:27+00:00

This really resonates with my short experience as a mother (our daughter was diagnosed with terminal cancer at 2 months old and died before her first birthday). I am a lawyer, and my husband was a stay at home Dad and a fantastic caregiver.

Don't even get my started about "Parents" magazine, though I don't know whether it's gotten better. Then, it barely acknowledged that a father's role in parenting was anything other than fetcher-for-Mom and bill payor, assumptions I found belittling toward both men and women.

While we lived full time in a famous pediatric oncology hospital in the southern US, aspersions were often cast on my husband's parenting capacity - which was better, I should admit, than my own. If he took our daughter to her medical appointments while I worked, he'd be asked (rather aghast) "Where's Mom today?" and so forth. Mom is at WORK, taking care of the family in an equally important but different way.

There's so little doubt that shared parenting responsibility is good for kids. It's good for women and for men as well, to give each a meaningful choice (within economic possibilities for the family) to parent, to work, or both. I'm eager for society to move past the ideas that men aren't appropriate, or good, or natural child-carers, and I feel that abandoning that stereotype would benefit men and women in many additional ways.

RyanLikesyoface · 2012-05-02T23:45:47+00:00

Wow I had no idea this even existed, I'm not quite at the stage of my life where being a parent is an option, but if I ever have a child and they treat me like that I'll always call them out on it.

alendiel · 2012-05-03T00:04:08+00:00

Try not to let the more militant guys on here scare you off. There are authentic issues for men that are discussed here, and you've raised an important point from the perspective of a woman.

It's tough, but there is a stereotype playing against dads whereby they are often considered second fiddle to the mother when it comes to nurturing their child. As I'm sure you'll agree, there's no malicious bias at play here, but when it comes to child rearing people have a natural tendency to assume that the mother is the absolute primary caregiver and that the father is subordinate to her when it comes to their child.

BinaryShadow · 2012-05-03T03:56:39+00:00

This attitude in society is the #1 cause for all family court biases. It's why mommy gets the child in the divorce unless she was caught doing meth.

C0CKPUNCHER · 2012-05-02T15:19:08+00:00

Even though my son bonded more with me, for whatever reason, and is typically clinging to me, people do talk to my wife first. And give me funny looks if I'm ever with my son alone.

DavidByron · 2012-05-02T17:58:54+00:00

Saying men are second class there .... far too optimistic. Men simply don't exist as far as being parents goes.

TheDongerNeedsFood · 2012-05-02T18:27:48+00:00

Take a look again at the article you posted, and now re-read it, except its from the point of a wife whose husband is either the sole or primary bread-winner for the household.

"I just get really frustrated when attorney, accountants, financial planners, and people like that completely ignore me when having meetings with my husband and I. They've even cut me off mid-sentence while I was talking to them. I know my husband makes almost all the money and pays the mortgage and things like that, but I just really feel that I should be part of this whole decision-making process"

From everything I can tell, it was accepted long ago that marriage is an equal partnership between two parties, and they both need to be equally involved in decisions involving the family. This is true regarding financial decisions and other things of that nature, but it is clearly not true when it comes to parenting. In that realm, the fathers aren't even the second sex, they are the forgotten sex. At best, we are viewed as incompetent grown-up children who just need to be kept out of the way, and at worst, we are drooling sexual predators just waiting for our wives to leave us alone with the children.

BTW, I thank you very much for coming here and bringing this topic up. Father's rights is one of the biggest issues within the MRM. We aren't looking for special treatment or anything, we just want the world to accept that we are every bit as capable and caring parents as the mothers are.

2012-05-02T19:14:31+00:00

Yeah this article nails it. It sucks being a dad because we are treated second rate and idiotic. Without even thinking about my wife will dismiss me when talking with other teachers, care givers or doctors. My questions get ignored and it feels terrible.

jenkstom · 2012-05-02T19:18:09+00:00

The only reason any of my sons' healthcare providers talk to me is because I'm a medical professional. So I've taken the lead role through my wife's pregnancy and the boys' NICU stay and doctor visits. I've made a point to introduce myself and speak authoritatively about the boys.

But with my daughter (now 15), it was completely different. I definitely was "just the dad". I assumed it was because the baby was a girl, but maybe that wasn't it.

I think the key is for me to make it known up front that I'm actively involved in this aspect of my sons' lives and that I'm not taking any crap. It helps to ask one or two "insightful" questions up-front that let whoever we're working with know that I'm here and I'm on the ball. Then again, my wife has sort of let me take over some aspects because I am more knowledgeable about healthcare.

I've run up against HIPAA issues - my wife signed the paperwork at the hospital once before I got there. My wife left while I helped start IVs and clean up diarrhea and blood before he was admitted, but the billing department wouldn't talk to me because my wife's name was on the paperwork. That, however, isn't a sex-related issue, just dumb billers covering their asses (frustrating, since there was a huge billing error that prevented them from getting paid).

odintal · 2012-05-02T19:54:39+00:00

I get this a lot as a stay at home dad. Sometimes it's funny to see moms going from suspicious looks to being in awe of a father so involved. Happens at the playground a lot.

2012-05-02T19:57:14+00:00

Traditional gender roles at work.

I was unfortunate enough to once be involved in a conversation with some friends and acquaintances, most of whom had children (I have none myself), where I heard it touted as a matter of pride by some that their wife handles the "dirty work" with the kids (changing diapers, feeding, potty training) while they get to be the "fun" parent who plays with them, and hands them off when they get fussy.

This was definitely more the sentiment when I lived in a small (and fairly isolated) town, and having moved to the city, I see less traditional parental roles among my friends. Not surprising. I live in the South too, so I'm sure that contributes to my experience. We're ALL about tradition here. Bleh.

Anyway, my point is that I see where these generalizations come from. I see that it's perpetuated by both individuals and media, by both reality and fiction. I just have trouble seeing why it's so hard to take individuals on a case-by-case basis, rather than assuming they fit the stereotype. Particularly in the case of adult professionals, such as healthcare workers. They should really know better.

2012-05-02T20:52:38+00:00

That's absolutely how it went with both my children when they were infants. As they got older, it was less of an issue.

MiddleSidePunk · 2012-05-02T22:01:03+00:00

There is alos a point in which the dad will more than likely take over into things such as boy scouts, camping, sports, other "manly" things that I bet he will be looked to first and foremost before his wife. I see where he is coming from in these early stages of life, but this comes full circle with other aspects of a boys life. If they had a daughter though...he will not be looked at in that way, ever.

picopallasi · 2012-05-02T23:31:41+00:00

This stuff doesn't surprise me, and it's all what I expect. People assume the mom is the go-to parent for a kid. I don't think that part is particularly egregious. What strikes me as irksome is sidelining the father utterly. This is entirely unacceptable, and I'd have strict words for anyone that treated me in this fashion.

2012-05-03T00:26:46+00:00

If someone interrupted me midsentence, they would receive a very cutting retort to whatever they said next. I don't deal with disrespect kindly and neither should anyone in any situation outside of work. Don't allow childcare providers to ignore you, that's ridiculous.

Also ask your wife to have a meeting where she doesn't say much, they'll redirect their attention, problem solved.

SquirrelBoy · 2012-05-03T01:10:13+00:00

Are you kidding me? This comment set me on edge.

Jennifer Texas This column really highlights why gender equity is better for both genders. Everyone loses when we get put in boxes based on what is under our undies. However, I think Mom's still get the short end of the stick on this issue. Not getting called by the pre-school is irritating, being chronically underpaid and excluded from promotion in a job setting because you are a "Mom" is much worse.

When I'm watching my son, I'm just doing my job. When my husband is watching our son, he's "baby sitting" or praised as an "involved Dad". I get no such credit, just a load of guilt from the Mommy Wars about not being a full-time stay at home grind my own grain mother.

My husband brings our son to work things and everyone thinks it's so "cute" and dotes on him. If I brought our son to a work function, I would be a typical working mother trying to foist her child on her employer and hinder productivity.

We can all come up with examples of this. I really hope this gentleman is proactively seeking opportunities to support gender equity policies.

coochiesmoocher · 2012-05-03T01:56:54+00:00

I have four kids and I have to say that I haven't noticed this kind of pervasive discrimination to the extent the author describes. It's not that I don't believe it happens. However, the traditional roles are kind of reversed in our family because I work from home and my wife runs a business. We are trying very hard to build her business into something big, and that requires a sacrifice of time on her part. My job allows me to be flexible with my hours, so I take the kids to day care, to the doctors, I go shopping with them, take them to the park, make dinner, and many, many other things.

Maybe there's something I'm doing differently, some aura I give off that makes people treat me equal to my wife. Maybe it's something she does. Perhaps the kids act a certain way around me that people key off of. Maybe I'm just not paying attention, or I simply don't care when my wife is addressed rather than me. I don't know. I do know that nobody scoffs at me when I say I want to be a stay at home dad. Nobody ignores me or avoids answering my questions about kids.

EDIT: I talked to my wife and she said that before we had kids it was slightly different. For example, when we would take my older daughters to a restaurant the server would look to her to ask what they wanted to drink. I would be amused by this and just wait to see what she said. She normally would say, "I don't know, ask him." Not sure if they took it as "they're not my kids" or "she's a bad mother." At any rate, I guess I would have to say after further reflection that I have seen this subtle deferring to the female when it comes to kids. I just thought it was funny rather than insulting.

Stretchster · 2012-05-03T05:53:40+00:00

The reverse can be true in other situations involving male-centric things, such as cars. Go to a mechanic both husband and wife, and you'll notice they tend to speak to the male regardless of how auto-educated the woman is. We just tend to see certain things to be either male or female-centric.

heyshuggy · 2012-05-03T06:25:14+00:00

This seems very true. If women want equal rights, they need to be able to realize that they have double standards too. I feel that many women want to feel equal, but rarely want to admit that they may have an advantage in society anywhere (and of course, this could be true of any human in a similar situation).

heyshuggy · 2012-05-03T06:27:00+00:00

Also, what about stereotypes in the media? Most dad's are like Homer Simpson, Peter Griffen, or Adam Sandler. The dad is always the bafoon with no knowledge on how to deal with children.

goldenruler · 2012-05-03T08:10:12+00:00

We are expecting and I have always been treated as equals at the hospital and by the doctor we visit. I don't know if it will change in the future, but I haven't been treated like that so far.

Alanna · 2012-05-02T17:21:24+00:00

I honestly have not seen my husband treated like this. I'm not at all saying it doesn't happen, or that it's not the norm, but it's not universal. But then, we've never used a babysitter, so I'm basing this mostly on hospital staff where my daughter was born and our pediatrician.

2012-05-02T20:42:43+00:00

It depends upon what kind of man you end up marrying. I've never had this problem, but I'm fairly assertive and if I asked a question that got brushed off, I'd circle back to it rather than letting it go. Once others understand that you are active and involved in your child's life, they don't exclude you.

For example, I'm never brushed off at parent-teacher conferences. But I make it a point to exchange emails regularly with the teacher so s/he knows that I'm interested and involved. When I show up at the parent-teacher conference, the conversation is just an extension of that correspondence.

I work and my wife is a SAHM who really is the primary caregiver. But even in that situation, I've never experience this "brush off" that the article speaks of.

truesound · 2012-05-03T12:09:47+00:00

It's no secret that society sees men as expendable. The men who put up with it and nod and smile are the worst of the bunch.

jakenichols · 2012-05-02T21:31:39+00:00

Its part of the brainwashing that is done by the media. People think the fathers are inept because on TV, men are inept. That is because of the liberal media moguls who want to destroy the family unit and emasculate the supposed man of the house.

zarx · 2012-05-03T00:19:13+00:00

I have a toddler, and as a man I haven't noticed any of this bias at all, with doctors, nannies, or anyone else. Maybe it's my disposition with our kid (obviously out nanny knows how much time I spend with her), or maybe we're the exception.

But obviously if it's happening to others, it's a problem.

orphen21 · 2012-05-02T19:42:17+00:00

commenting to save so i can read it later.

dreamqueen9103 · 2012-05-02T20:38:14+00:00

Ha. A person speaking right past you to your S.O? Ignoring everything you say? That's how we feel whenever a salesperson, plumber, banker, workman, or almost anyone speaks to my boyfriend and I. That's a tiny taste of what it feels like to be a woman sometimes.

Roddy0608 · 2012-05-02T21:31:36+00:00

You only just noticed it? Parent 1 is the mother. Parent 2 is the father. It kind of gets to me.

crepeist · 2012-05-03T06:10:56+00:00

i think about this a lot, and I'm a feminist. Its like men can't be equal in a childs life as women just like women can't be equal in the workplace like men. It's sad.

NiceGuysSTFU · 2012-05-02T15:44:39+00:00

As a man, I am tired of women coming here and wanting a gold star for being a woman in MR.

Title	As a women who may be a wife and mother some day, this thought NEVER occurred to me. What do you men have to say about this issue?
Author	alendiel
Upvotes	276
Comments	218
Date	May 2, 2012 2:48 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/t3bsz/as_a_women_who_may_be_a_wife_and_mother_some_day/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/as-a-women-who-may-be-a-wife-and-mother-some-day.1022699 https://theredarchive.com/post/1022699

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