If women want to be equal in all things, why are they not required to sign up for the selective service?

wondergay · 2010-12-15T20:37:49+00:00

As a feminist I agree that women should have to be called up right alongside of men if there were to be a draft. It's really the only logical conclusion if you consider women and men equals.

matt_512 · 2010-12-15T21:06:27+00:00

The Supreme Court addressed this in 1970 or 1972 I believe. The bottom line was that because women were not allowed to serve in combat positions and the role of the draft was to fill combat positions, women were not subject to the draft.

Women still bared from direct land combat positions, so I don't see the Supreme Court revisiting the issue until that changes.

rageagainsthevagene · 2010-12-15T22:50:26+00:00

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trolleyfan · 2010-12-15T22:02:07+00:00

You're asking the wrong question: The question should be, why is anybody required to sign up for the selective service?

iggybdawg · 2010-12-15T21:12:21+00:00

I think you have the question backwards. Ask why they are not fighting to abolish the selective service. It would be silly for them to take that on because it's a bad thing. But fighting for equality means eliminating bad things that are only on one side of the fence. That's why the mens rights movement should exist, to eliminate bad things that only exist for men. Don't try to make it into forcing bad things only we bear onto women. The sad reality, though, is that some bad things only applying to men are a result of feminists taking their movement too far - divorce laws, false rape claims, etc

The example I use is circumcision. Many feminists will cry bloody murder if try to bring up something like "Female Circumcision is illegal, laws that don't protect both sexes are unconstitutional, delete that law or make it apply to both sexes"

legendary_ironwood · 2010-12-15T20:54:13+00:00

Here's another thought. If the military doesn't allow openly gay people to serve, shouldn't there be a box to check regarding sexuality on the service papers?

[] Check here if you are openly gay.

Or is the message that gays have no place in the army, unless Uncle Sam really, really needs you?

Bobsutan · 2010-12-15T23:27:06+00:00

Heyheyhey. I'm a woman, I consider myself pretty damn progressive, and I firmly believe that women SHOULD have to sign up for the selective service. Don't assume that because we don't have to, we don't believe we should.

dcook2435 · 2010-12-15T20:44:00+00:00

I've been preaching this for years. And for those who say women have no place in the armed forces, there are absolutely plenty of roles that women can fill.

2010-12-15T23:49:39+00:00

It applies in countries like china where women may serve in active combat roles. The soviet union also employed female soldiers, pilots, gunners, officers, etc.

halright · 2010-12-15T19:35:53+00:00

I think the answer is obvious.

Feminists only want equality when it is the benefits portion.

They don't want equality if it is the drawbacks portion.

If you ask them about this though - they'll give some idealistic vision of a utopia of a world without war, then blame the patriarchy for the military and claim they are fighting to stop men from having to go to war too.

Quakee · 2010-12-16T00:11:56+00:00

As a navy vet, I'd like to say that MOST (as in the fucking majority) of the females I've had to work with never pulled their weight when compared to the men. Yes, there were shitbag MALES who didn't pull their weight, but they didn't make up the majority.

Maybe USMC, Army, and Air Force chicks are different, I'm just speaking of my personal experience.

Edit* Also, in my experience, the cuter they were, the more skating they got away with.

tagus · 2010-12-16T00:37:03+00:00

Because they're not allowed to actually fight.

2010-12-16T01:15:43+00:00

FYI, Obama originally supported a requirement for both men and women to register with the Selective Service

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08287/919582-470.stm?cmpid=elections.xml

NOW lobbied hard to get Obama to drop his position on this issue and he did in exchange for votes.

geodebug · 2010-12-16T02:07:16+00:00

If gays want to be equal in all things, why do they allow themselves to be kicked out when it becomes known they are gay?

Funny how you phrase it as women's fault that they are banned from combat positions in the US military.

It isn't women lawmakers and military leaders holding dear to this position any more than it is gay lawmakers (except for closeted republicans I guess) and military leaders that cling to DADT.

shoelessgoddess · 2010-12-16T02:16:53+00:00

I once had a discussion about this in political science. We realized this: if women were forced to sign up for the service and then were called to duty they could (and many would) get pregnant as a way to get out of it. And in time of war, most of those kids will most likely be supported by government funds.

enso13 · 2010-12-16T02:33:11+00:00

I can only speak for myself, but I want NO ONE to be required to do so. If that's not possible, though, of course I'd rather it be required for women as well. Where can I vote on that?

griffin3141 · 2010-12-16T03:12:09+00:00

The fact of the matter is that men and women are not equal, and it's delusional to think we are. I'm certainly not saying women are inferior (I think most women are better people than me), but different selection pressures throughout our evolutionary history shaped different roles for male and female Homo sapiens. Because of our selection pressures, men as a whole make better soldiers than women.

DIGGYRULES · 2010-12-15T22:01:06+00:00

Why is it women's fault that they aren't required to sign up for the selective service? It is the government. The law. I would have signed up at 18 if it were required. Plenty of women choose to serve their country. Plenty of women have died, and are continuing to die, for their country. Why is the fact that they are not required by law to sign up for the selective service an infringement on your rights as men? How does it show women mistreating men?

Stormhammer · 2010-12-16T00:59:26+00:00

From what I understand, it's the stigma that still relates that it's a man's duty, in addition to some BS about how families wouldn't be ready to lose their daughters @_@

stemgang · 2010-12-16T01:41:08+00:00

It's called hypocrisy.

2010-12-16T01:44:33+00:00

Selective service isn't the real issue. It is against the law for a woman to be placed on the front lines of combat. Now THAT'S bullshit.

jelliedbabies · 2010-12-16T02:59:18+00:00

Simple men are better soldiers than women. A well trained force requires consistency between everyone who serves and woman can only provide that in non combat roles. Last I checked when shit hit the fan women were expected to fill in industry and civilian support roles to further the war effort while those physically capable went to war.

I can't join the military due to my eyesight it's not about equality it's about being qualified for the job.

auntylucy · 2010-12-15T21:31:59+00:00

As someone who believes in HUMAN rights, I don't think there should be a draft for anyone, regardless of sex.

MKQ · 2010-12-16T00:33:53+00:00

Because we've never been asked.
Because we are, by law, prohibited from doing the job for which the selective service exists. (Combat).
Because the political will does not exist to change this law. Our government would bomb a country to smithereens before requiring anyone (men included) to be drafted to go to war in this day and age. That selective service even exists anymore, IMHO is because it just hasn't yet been abolished. At this point, it's just something that men can point to and say "bitches don't have to go to war, feminism is just for what THEY want." Which is crap.

Craysh · 2010-12-15T22:07:45+00:00

Simply because they can't, doesn't mean they don't want to.

Bloodlustt · 2010-12-15T22:46:38+00:00

But Macs are better! Oh wait posting in the wrong endless opinion thread....

EvoEpitaph · 2010-12-15T21:33:12+00:00

I think "MensRights" and "WomensRights" are stupid. It should only be "HumanRights" and it should apply to everyone.

(just to clarify, I think those two rights groups are stupid when they are not pressing for true equality but rather just for gaining beneficial rights for the group)

2010-12-15T23:04:44+00:00

Because selective service is combat-based and women aren't seen fit to be in combat? If you want to challenge that notion, good luck. You're talking about an army that still doesn't let openly gay men serve. It's not exactly the most progressive institution in the world. Women who are in the army now get enough shit, they do a tough job and then get spat on because men die more often - as if they have any say at all in where they're deployed and what jobs they're assigned.

I agree that women should be called up alongside men, but I don't see it happening. It stems both from the idea that women are too weak to be in combat, and also from archaic nuclear family roles (where the wife raises the children and therefore has to stay home). I'd prefer to fight for the rights of women who want to serve in the military, and do away with the draft altogether.

AnnArchist · 2010-12-15T20:36:31+00:00

Because they don't want equality.

jakethrocky · 2010-12-15T23:16:24+00:00

eh, the way it went down the last time it really mattered was the women stayed home to build the war machine, leaving the more physical work of fighting to the men. Rosie the Riveter, anyone?

powerpiglet · 2010-12-15T22:54:06+00:00

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eltra27 · 2010-12-15T21:53:54+00:00

Because if there is a draft, rest assured they will probably be recruiting for front line troops only (Infantry) and women officially do not engage in combat roles.

sile0 · 2010-12-15T21:10:49+00:00

because they're not allowed to. most would say it would be fair if they were required to. so, you're pissed at lawmakers/government policy makers then?

BankerBill · 2010-12-16T00:50:36+00:00

This was in regards to Nikrall's earlier comment

(I would say in the majority of aspects, men have it easier than women.)

If I want to be a stay at home dad, I think it would much harder to accomplish (by finding a women who would want to support a man for this) then if I was a women. When it comes to dating (This is only in my personal experience) it’s been much easier for women to get one then most men. When someone is in need of help, strangers are much more to help a female they don’t know then a male (myself included). So in many ways it can be easier to be a women just like in many ways it can be easier to be man (smarter, stronger and more humble. Calm down I’m just playing with you).

(I always find it suspect when people only focus on the issues concerning them) (When people just focus on fixing the problems "in front of them", what happens is that they fail to realize other peoples point of views.) (The suffering of fathers who can't see their children? This one I really, really can't stand)

Unfortunately it is human nature more often then not to view the world one sided. I do it, you clearly do it so don’t point the finger until you look at yourself in the mirror first. It sounds like all you care about it your problem “in front of you”. You don’t sound very open to discussing how false rape claims are a problem but only want discuss how discussing false rape claims cause fear that actual rape victims will be shamed by naming their accuser. (Thus just focusing on the problems in front of you).

(A lot of times (clearly not always, but a lot) of times fathers can't see their children because their is evidence of abuse of some kind, or, they were just generally shitty dads.) A lot of times mothers are shitty parents too, that has nothing to do with what spice_weasel was talking about. He’s talking about the societal connotation or stigma that comes with being a Man with children. In the courts a father has to first prove that the Mother is an unfit guardian and that he would be a better one. This doesn’t sound equal to me.

(I am not troubled by more women going to university than men. Why not? Because men are more likely to go to college than ever before. The rate of men going to college has increased, not decreased. Its just that women have increased at a much, much faster rate.) Once again your not listening (and I thought women were suppose to be the good listeners). Spice_weasel wasn’t talking about college but schooling before that. Statically Male students have been performing at drastically lower level then there female counterparts. Why? For many years women followed behind men in school but so much focus has been put on women that men are falling behind.

Anyways I’m done work for the day and would love to discuss this in more detail but I’m going home.

sdaffer · 2010-12-16T01:59:03+00:00

I have been saying this for a long long time

texaspsychosis · 2010-12-16T02:47:37+00:00

The only people I have personally ever heard raise concerns about this, are men. One argument I heard once was that he feared he would not be able to help himself, and would put his life in danger if a woman was captured.

I, as a woman, am fine with having women sign up for selective service.

2010-12-16T02:56:11+00:00

I doubt it would ever be used anyway, there's already a large amount of people in the marines, navy, airforce, and armed services, and barring a simultaneous cloaked nuclear missile on every base in the states, I doubt any of us not already signed up or willing to sign up will ever see a battlefield in our lives.

adle1984 · 2010-12-16T03:14:13+00:00

Pregnancy.

Esploratore · 2010-12-16T04:02:22+00:00

I'm a woman and I completely agree.

Rooniebob · 2010-12-16T04:38:44+00:00

screw feminism talk...i don't think that's an issue here...i don't think we were required to register because we can have children and people want to continue their beautiful American lives with a new generation of babies to fight another day...or be a famous poet, quarterback, or president...without women, population=dead...end of story.

snoopyzanus · 2010-12-16T04:48:42+00:00

The thing is that you will get a lot of feminists who will pay lip service to the idea of women signing up for selective service, but you won't see any actual activism to make it a reality; just as feminism is all about equality for men too if you hear a feminist speak about what feminism "really is," yet in practice nothing is done to help men, or even boys.

The reality of feminism is in what is done or not done by feminists; not in what they say.

Cabrillis · 2010-12-16T04:56:30+00:00

Worked this one wrong...

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/eb0c9/women_of_reddit_i_bet_you_have_never_been_to_or/

BravoJulietKilo · 2010-12-16T06:21:01+00:00

To be honest this is more of a historical imperative than anything else. The selective service was created in a time where a traditional household included the working man, the housewife, and the children. If women were drafted, there would be nobody to raise or supervise the children.

In our country's gravest time of need, like WWII, women were very influential to the effectiveness of our military by working on the production line back at home, and many also served as nurses.

lindseym2010 · 2010-12-16T07:46:47+00:00

Personally, I think nobody should be forced into the military against their will. I know there's a "BUT WHAT IF WE'RE INVADED DERP" comeback, but if no one wants to defend our country then something else is wrong besides invaders. If there is a draft, however, I think that women should be drafted as well.

2010-12-16T09:13:25+00:00

Perhaps two wrongs don't make a right and neither should be required to sign up for the draft?

xebo · 2010-12-16T10:07:49+00:00

I think women are ever bit as capable as men to serve in the military, and from a logical point of view, they should be included in selective service.

That being said, as a male, I do sometimes have emotional problems with the concept of service women being captured by the enemy.

Honestly, I don't think it's any of my business what other people get themselves into as long as it doesn't involve me. And women signing up for selective service certainly falls into that category. Now, if I could wave a magic wand and have the situation turn out any which way I chose, I would keep them off the SS list. It's not my business, and it's not logical, but it's how I'd want it.

Wonder what that says about me...

2010-12-16T10:21:04+00:00

I think it's because a lot of feminists don't want equal rights, they just want special social privileges.

dilldoeorg · 2010-12-16T11:38:22+00:00

simple, they want all the rights, but not all of the responsibilities. (well most)

Expect the same pay as men, but don't expect to pay for dinner, lol Equal partners in marriage, takes half of what you own in divorce while keeping all of her stuff.

f1r3br4nd · 2010-12-16T14:52:57+00:00

Because if a politician tried to pass such a bill...

A lot of voters would flip out because their primal protective instincts would be directly triggered (and fully exploited by whoever the opposition party might be).
Draft-age women would hate it.
Voters in general would flip out because it would remind them of the existence of selective service registration and that Congress is always one simple majority away from a draft. And if they're amending the selective service requirements all of a sudden, could it be because they're planning to do just that?
Civil libertarians would hate that the government would then have information on the whereabouts of twice as many people.
Technically women in the US still don't serve on active combat duty, just in support roles (in practice anybody can be a front-line soldier at any point, but I said technically), and the point of a draft is to rapidly mobilize large numbers of front-line troops.

pragmaticzach · 2010-12-16T16:26:59+00:00

Maybe because most women couldn't make it past basic training?

That's not a slight against women - there are a lot of really strong women at the gym I go to.

Just, as a fact of life, most women aren't as physically well equipped as men. Sorry, but no one is trying to force men to have a baby.

forgeSHIELD · 2010-12-16T18:49:23+00:00

For everyone to be completely equal sacrifices need to be made on both sides. If two people have the same job, do the same work with the same proficiency, and sleeping with the same boss's son or daughter then they deserved to be treated equally in both pay and gratitude. There are differences in how men and women are raised which hinders this a lot, but having both men and women sign up for selective service would help bring some people along to the same upbringing

nlakes · 2010-12-15T22:12:35+00:00

Likewise, if women don't want to be considered the weaker sex. Stop being the weaker sex.

Men still take all the risk in asking out girls, initiating sex and proposing. In fact, the courtship game is one that women expect men to play (for the most part). If you do not take the risks that men take, are you not the weaker sex?

Women should be asking out guys in roughly equal numbers on average as guys are asking out girls. Girls should be giving guys engagement rings in roughly the same numbers that guys are giving them to girls.

Rastafaerie · 2010-12-15T23:07:31+00:00

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mowza · 2010-12-15T22:54:04+00:00

because they don't really want to be equal in all things. Think Titanic...

2010-12-16T01:36:14+00:00

Cause if a bunch of young dudes get wiped out, then the old dudes can impregnate the young chicks at home. But if a bunch of young chicks get wiped out, then you're fucked. You bang all the old chicks, and then maybe half of them will squirt out some half retarded babies. Also one dude could impregnate like a million chicks. If there's ever a draft, it's cause shit got real. And you have to be practical. It's not about some abstract concept about equality, its about "Oh fuck, they're killing all our young men over there, we need to send some more young men over there before over there comes over here."

I_Work_in_the_Senate · 2010-12-16T03:21:33+00:00

The reason that women are not required to sign up for selective service is that conservatives keep blocking the ERA from passing. It's not because feminists don't support it. Sorry men's rights, you can't blame women for this.

2010-12-16T05:46:43+00:00

Because feminism isn't about equality. It's simply another opportunity for strong males to further marginalize/outcast weaker males.

Women have absolutely nothing to do with it, other than being the prize, of course.

AnnArchist · 2010-12-15T20:22:51+00:00

Well, though I agree that if you were to follow the ideology to the fullest extent they would have to also serve, however, I really don't think most women would make good soldiers. From a pragmatic standpoint I don't really think forcing women into being soldiers is a good idea for military commanders.

kurfu · 2010-12-16T00:02:41+00:00

They do not want true equality, they want special privilege and choice.

I_call_it_like_it_is · 2010-12-16T00:30:48+00:00

They only want equality when it is a positive.

deetyburroughs · 2010-12-16T01:28:28+00:00

Women don’t (nor should) want to be equal in all things, because men and women have different roles in society, always had and always will have. We are not meant to be equal, which doesn’t mean either should get better treatment. Each is the best at what he/she was built for. Period.

The big difference between us is in one word: pregnancy. Neither gender is better or should have more rights, but let me ask you this: in an all out war scenario, a village, city or state with more women than men will fare better or worse than one with less women than men? What will happen to the population if women’s numbers decrease dramatically because, say, they are lost in war? How will you replace those numbers?

Example – a village with 500 fertile women and 50 men can still ensure up to 500 pregnancies. A village with 50 women and 500 men will always ensure just 50 pregnancies in the same amount of time.
You know that ‘women and children first’ thing? It’s not to protect the fragile little innocents who can’t fend for themselves; it’s the simple logic which will ensure the survival of the community.

Fewer numbers mean fewer resources for everyone, which mean starvation and death. Women are extremely important in this process, because not only do they provide half of the raw material, but they also ARE the means of production. You may have the flour, but if you don’t have water and an oven you won’t get bread. Get it?

If a draft was applied to both genders, pregnant women would be excluded immediately -- and we wouldn’t simply say fertile, healthy women can’t get pregnant because maybe there just might be a war sometime and we need troops… Would we start regulating pregnancies? Giving people permits to have children?

It’s starting to seem a little 1984 Big Brother thing, this world with mandatory draft for both genders…

But let’s keep going with our hypothesis. So a woman gets pregnant; after the baby is born, how long would be the acceptable time frame before she has to present herself for duty (recovery time after the baby, boot camp and all)? Who would take care of the kid? Possibly, the dad would’ve had to present himself for duty as well, unless he wasn’t physically or mentally fit for it. So where would the kid go? If the State gave the parents a choice, don’t you think most fathers would rather the mother stayed home? Then how does mandatory signing up for women make sense in this kind of scenario? In ANY scenario?

drpepperofevil · 2010-12-15T21:23:36+00:00

1/3 of women in the army are raped. Change men so that they treat women as equal and then we can do what ever you do.

This is not about women being treated equal to men, it's about people treating other people equally.

sile0 · 2010-12-15T21:25:15+00:00

They don't care about equality, they just care about getting theirs.

They talk about equality so they can get shit that they don't deserve. But then they ignore it for stuff they don't want.

Are they fighting against 70% female participation rates in colleges? Single women making more than men in many cities? Of course not.

2010-12-15T23:00:26+00:00

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sile0 · 2010-12-15T22:20:25+00:00

Well, no, its not in womens rights to be forced to fight for their country, should they wish not to do so. That should be fairly obvious.

There is a difference between what is in someones interests to do and what they should do. You are condemning them for not working against their interests. And yes...working in ones own interest is selfish...its also what pretty much all identity focused groups are designed to do, including this one.

side2 · 2010-12-15T22:12:08+00:00

What's this selective service you speak of?

2010-12-15T23:08:39+00:00

But if women have to die too, who is going to produce more meat for the war grinder?

mqduck · 2010-12-16T00:45:59+00:00

Because the Selective Service is controlled by feminists, duh.

leggypee · 2010-12-16T01:33:47+00:00

fair is fair make sure i get the same wage for doing a mans job

2010-12-16T05:09:24+00:00

Because women were thought of as weak and not fighters. Seriously, you picked a great argument FOR feminism. The selective service for men is an antiquated idea based on bigotry and negative stereotypes of women, once fostered by a male dominated society.

nkryan · 2010-12-15T21:15:38+00:00

They should be. But the reality is that there's a near zero probability of bringing back the draft, so I'm not really bothered by it.

2010-12-15T23:29:51+00:00

MRA exists b/c 3rd wave feminsits exist. Remove the feminsits, the MRAs disappear.

2010-12-15T23:39:00+00:00

I hate to say it and I certainly have been screwed over by anit male policies but the REASON is for the same reason Men don't hold a child in their skin for nine months.

InnocuousAss · 2010-12-16T00:57:27+00:00

I downvoted this because while it's a valid complaint, and a common question, it's one that shows up all the time in arguments, so unless you're gonna be adding anything new to it, I really don't need it showing up in my newsfeed.

It's like saying, "omg! Fundamentalist Christians are crazy!! zomg!!" I agree, but I'm still gonna downvote you.

2010-12-16T01:15:27+00:00

And why do I have to hold doors open and put the seat down? The nerve!

Quazz · 2010-12-15T20:35:36+00:00

Because selective service is a responsibility, a duty even, not a privilege or an advantage.

LOLOLOL FEMINIST TROLLS

If women want to be equal in all things, why are they not required to sign up for the selective service?

Comments

I'm inspired to register 500 times, just so I can upvote this comment 500 times more. You capture exactly how I feel about feminism.

Title	If women want to be equal in all things, why are they not required to sign up for the selective service?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	206
Comments	384
Date	December 15, 2010 7:30 PM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/emdm6/if_women_want_to_be_equal_in_all_things_why_are/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/if-women-want-to-be-equal-in-all-things-why-are.1045196 https://theredarchive.com/post/1045196