Is it just me, or is the idea that men want women to perform “femininity” largely overblown?

Lookingforlove1997 · 2024-03-10T19:37:13+00:00

It’s not. Men like the cool girl and born sexy yesterday tropes because they’re hot women who share their interests and essentially live for them but don’t really have any dissenting opinions. They never question him, never push back. He is always right because he is the smartest man in the world and his desires, thoughts and opinions should always be conceded to.

This is why you’ll hear some people say men want women to perform femininity.

She can be bold and loud if it’s in agreement with him, but it’s a turn off if she’s disagreeing.

She can be strong and independent so that she’s not a stage 5 clinger and can keep up with what he wants to do and maybe pay half the bills, but not so independent that she forges her own path separate from him and doesn’t need him.

Spirited-Reality-651 · 2024-03-11T03:34:15+00:00

What is overblown is male’s fragile egos. This post is completely irrational and self contradictory.

 “Makeup is literally one type of mask. Men certainly want a woman to *look* feminine, there’s no debate there.”

The fact that men want women to wear makeup and appear feminine is the performance of femininity. You literally contradicted what you said in the title by saying that it’s overblown. Men want the physical appearance of femininity (the makeup, accessories, etc), but they don’t want the real psychological femininity (such as being emotional, sensitive, “dramatic”) because that is “too much work”. And that is what the entire Gone Girl book is about. The trope of the cool girl is women having external feminine appearance while having psychological masculine qualities that benefit men in a relationship.

MidoriEgg · 2024-03-10T20:37:41+00:00

Of course every man wants something slightly different.

But when it comes to masculine traits in women, there’s usually a silent caveat afterwards. Like you can have masculine interests and tastes as long as you’re not too passionate about them and as long as you can still LOOK pretty/feminine.

Even aside from romantic partners, almost everyone in society has expectations for you to upkeep a certain level of femininity in order to be respected and be seen as normal. Society and especially men can be pretty defensive over women’s beauty/femininity. Ever joke about cutting your hair short in front of men? They tend to get really mad. If femininity doesn’t come naturally to you or you don’t look the right way it can be extremely limiting (oh but if you’re hyper-feminine then you also get judged, so toe the line).

I’m sure some men feel the same way about expectations of masculinity.

naomidusk · 2024-03-10T20:50:04+00:00

What you're getting at is that men want a woman who is both visually attractive to him and someone he can emotionally/intellectually connect with.

Presenting as feminine makes a woman visually attractive to a man, but feminine personality traits (hard to define, but generalizing here) may make her more difficult to relate to for the man.

Men who enjoy traditional gender roles will be more tolerant of that difficulty because she also may be more compatible with his expectations - she may take on more traditionally feminine tasks and duties, and defer to him for more traditionally masculine tasks and duties. If those are shared values for them, it can be a compatible match.

For men less concerned about traditional gender roles, that difficulty of relating to a more feminine personality comes with little payoff - sure, she looks the part of an attractive woman, but she wants to talk about astrology and he wants to talk about Andrew Huberman. It's easier to relate to someone who has shared interests, so this becomes a point of friction.

This then leads to fantasies like the Sydney Sweeney one - a girl who presents as incredibly feminine but is somehow into typically-male interests. All of the upside, no downside.

The problem is that this girl basically doesn't exist, it is a performance. I.e. Gone Girl.

Of course there are plenty of women who love to present as visually very feminine. And there are plenty of women who like lots of typically "masculine" things or may have typically masculine traits.

But a woman who loves spending lots of time and effort looking the feminine part, but also happens to be really into all the dude stuff? It's a needle in a haystack, and simply very unlikely.

I agree with you that most men are not especially pressed about finding a woman who is feminine in hobbies/interests (unless they're more a trad guy), but they're often pretty wooed by a feminine appearance. What men are unconscious of is the amount of time and energy that feminine appearance requires, and not only is a woman spending that time going to have less time for other interests, but women investing in other interests are going to be spending less time on the infinite details and levels of feminine-appearance upkeep. Expecting that one will somewhat come at the cost of the other will give men a much better chance of finding the kind of woman he's looking for.

toasterchild · 2024-03-10T19:54:27+00:00

People who aren't finding what they desire in life end up settling for someone or something to assign blame to. Women no longer being feminine is an easy target for unhappy men. It can mean all sorts of things to different unhappy men. So some it means they can't handle a woman questioning or disagreeing with them. To others it means they think they'd have better luck getting a woman if women were shamed for working and needed a man financially still.

In the end to women the why doesn't matter because the desire is always the same - women should change who they are to better please me which is a major turn off.

januaryphilosopher · 2024-03-10T20:09:57+00:00

So you're saying they want women who perform femininity and have a couple of hobbies and interests that are exceptions. They're not chasing butches/GNC women are they? They're not looking for women who will do less chores than them?

MistyMaisel · 2024-03-11T19:23:01+00:00

So, I'm just speaking to my experience here, but it may give you insight to a lot of women's experience.

I grew up a nerd before nerdery was as cool as today. I've read all the comics. Seen all the anime. Played more board games, card games, and roleplaying games than almost any human ever will. Video games, yeah, lots. Table top games, which one, I've done a whole bunch. And all of this before I was 18. I was raised in it, lived it, and breathed it. If it was bloodlines, I'm a blue blood of it. I knew and know more about most of this stuff than people three times my age. This isn't arrogance, it's not in some senses like I did a whole lot to earn it besides merely exist. This is what my family was about and did for a living. It's like a 4th generation crab-fishers son being really good at crabbing or knowing a lot about crabs. Even if I didn't want to be, I'd be better than the majority of people. And I was enthusiastic. I'm the gamer girl unicorn you may have heard about on the Animal Planet or National Geographic.

You'd think I should have had a pretty easy time dating and sharing interests with whatever fella. Because dudes like a little masculinity in their women and sharing interests, right? Wrong. Men only like it provided the following things are true

You are never better than them at the things they like not even a little
You never know more about it than them and are always just some wide-eyed tell me more daddy type.
You never disagree with them or their opinion about your mutual interests.
You do not have higher status within the things they care about.
You are never more enthusiastic about something than them.
You want them to be your teacher.

In other words, men don't want you to like their things the way they like their things. Men want you to like their things enough that men can be bossy know it alls to you about this "shared mutual interest". They aren't experts interested in dating fellow experts. They aren't enthusiasts interested in dating a fellow enthusiast. They don't even want to be fellow students together. They want to be the teacher and have you be the student.

And god forbid you have any sort of masculine characteristics. Men do not like women who are disagreeable, opinionated, passionate about things, capable, or competent. Especially if it is more so than them.

In many ways, dating men and relationships with men was the death knell of my love for many many of my youthful hobbies and interests. Certainly, it ended my desire to share in them in romantic contexts and even in many friendship contexts.

Put bluntly, men have a fetish for the concept of women liking their shit, not so much the reality of that. It's a cute fantasy. Most men can't take actually dating a gamer girl. Most men want one of the boys right up until she has a higher elo or knows more about their favourite team.

(Disclaimer, this could just be an issue with nerdy men. I haven't struggled to share interests with more traditionally masculine men with traditionally masculine interests.)

Gitsumrestmf · 2024-03-10T19:43:06+00:00

If guys are talking about Sidney Sweeney, obviously it's all lust. Anything she does will be a "turn on".

Other than that, why can't a woman like computer games and still be feminine? Or even know her way around a car and still be feminine?

While I can't speak for every man, what I think is a good woman, is one who's:

loyal
supportive
able to forget her pride for the sake of her family/relationship

EulenWatcher · 2024-03-10T19:47:01+00:00

These are different groups of men.

Men who lean into more traditional gender roles often want to date women who are traditionally feminine and perform their traditional role. It's both about appearance - long hair, "nude" makeup (although a lot of men think it's "no makeup"), dresses and skirts, and behavior - caring, soft, nurturing, doing chores and taking care of kids etc.

Some men are more into "tomboys" and they want women who they can relate to. It can include more tomboyish appearance - gym girl, short hair, tall, and some behavior as well - "masculine" hobbies and interests, more aggressive/offensive humor, risk-taking etc.

Most men expect women to do some of their gender role whether it's explicit expectation or just...not doing it themselves. The end result is the same - women do more chores, child care, managing and micromanaging of the house etc.

MongoBobalossus · 2024-03-10T19:54:51+00:00

An attractive woman with common interests is pretty much what every dude wants.

just_a_place · 2024-03-11T05:35:08+00:00

I don't think you grasp the idea of what femininity actually is, my dude.

A chick that knows about cars can still be feminine as fuck. A homemaker with a bossy bitch attitude who wears a Sunday dress and acts prissy, prim, proper and submissive can still be masculine as fuck - ever heard of a power bottom? - and hence repulsive.

obviousredflag · 2024-03-11T06:55:38+00:00

I had the cool girl, gamer girl, one of the bros girl, not performing femininity girl and that was easy and nice. It worked well for me when i wasn't masculine, insecure, didn't know how to behave around women, because essentially, she was more like me than like girls.

This changed when became confident and had gathered the experience and understanding to feel good being around the other sex. Today, the differences are what draws me in. Sameness is boring to me, i don't need it anymore for safety reasons because i don't feel lost with the other sex anymore. But overall, sameness in values, social class, education, etc. are still what determines friendships and relationships to a very large degree. Being same on the core things that determine how much friction there is in day-to-day life, being different on the other traits that determine how you can grow together and be perpetually new and interesting to each other.

I want my women to perform femininity, not necessarily on all fronts, but enough to notice they are very different than men. I don't subscribe to your examples of understanding of femininity, like "being a submissive flower who fades into the wallpaper", "lives in their own universe", "cooks&cleans".

Fan_Service_3703 · 2024-03-10T21:37:32+00:00

Typically Feminine personality traits do not attract me. I'm pretty much exclusively attracted to assertive, confident, ambitious, self-sufficient women.

Some feminine appearance traits attract me, like stylish dresses, subdued/professional makeup styles, long hair, painted nails, high heels. Other typically feminine styles like shaved legs are things I actively dislike, but am willing to compromise on because 99% of women in the western world perform this aspect of "femininity".

Safinated · 2024-03-10T20:11:46+00:00

There’s many types and aspects of stereotypical female traits

Some are liked, others are not

__I____ · 2024-03-11T09:12:00+00:00

Trad values all appeared for a reason. Protect your woman because she'll be pregnant for 9 months, the woman stays home cause it takes ages to do dishes and laundry and things. A lot of these problems aren't so big anymore and sometimes we hold on to the ideas just because it's what we're used to, but people still change a lot over time. I think both men and women are finding they want to relate emotionally with their partner more than other arrangements, and that a lot of things can be taken care of on their own. It has it's unique benefits and challenges but I think that's the phenomenon.

2024-03-11T15:20:05+00:00

I agree it seems men have more modern sensibilities when it comes to behavior, while still wanting a lady to look feminine. Women still seem to have very traditional sensibilities about male behavior and looks. Even the more “feminist” ones.

SecondEldenLord · 2024-03-11T17:05:03+00:00

Men just want women that are loyal to them and that they feel they have something in common with, and women who are not some super feminine stereotypes.

bokan · 2024-03-11T17:45:58+00:00

Speaking personally, do I want a partner who is feminine, or do I want a partner who has overlapping interests and who I can connect with?

Both at once, honestly. This is a paradox of dating, we seek people who we are similar to, but notice there is no asymmetry to create a dynamic. Or we weak people with a crackling dynamic, and learn that we are too different from each other?

The answer lies somewhere in the middle, I imagine.

WilliamWyattD · 2024-03-13T11:21:23+00:00

I don't think men want lapdogs or women who agree with everything.

But men intuitively understand hypergamy to some extent. One aspect of it is that if she wins a fight or carries an argument, it's just one event. But men face double jeopardy. Not only can you lose the issue at hand, but rack up too many losses and you will lose her admiration, then respect, and then attraction.

So yeah, men want to avoid too much open conflict at home, especially of the kind that if he loses, he loses overall respect points.

The other thing men want is for women to not view the balance of power inside the relationship as representative of the universal female struggle for power against men. If a woman indulged her hypergamy and picked a guy who is a bit more worldly competent, then she should get out of her own way. In such a situation, it is likely the man has a but more influence in these areas, as he should. Not because he is a man, but because he is more capable than her in those areas. And she picked him partly because of that. So don't pick the more worldly competent mate, but then spend all your time trying to 'prove' that you are just as capable because that shows women in general are as capable as men. That gets old fast.

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GlobeUnited · 2024-03-11T03:58:12+00:00

It's hard to get into the mindset, but I do think for a lot of men there's something particularly alluring about personality traits that are "against type":

Hot girl who spends all day pampering herself and twirling her hair = hot

Hot girl who spends all day hunting, fishing and hammering nails = hotter.

There are a lot tropes like this: the librarian that you might not really notice with her hair tied up, thick glasses and a baggy sweater, then she lets her hair down, takes her glasses and sweater off and she's a 10. Brazilian beach volleyball players who absolutely kill in their bikinis but could also spike a ball down your throat.

Yes, I'm sure part of it is just "hot girl who is also fun to be around", but I think there's more to it than that.

OptimistInHell · 2024-03-11T16:20:28+00:00

You sound like you've been on the waiting list for touching grass therapy for way too long. Jump the queue.

MaulScarreign · 2024-03-11T16:45:17+00:00

i prefer women who are naturally attractive and don't cake on make up to draw on a new face, sweet, trustworthy, honest, doesn't want kids, doesn't have an of, and hasn't slept with 40 guys. that's really it. i don't want a submissive girl that will just let people yell at her, she does all the cooking, does all the cleaning, does all the shopping, is a doormat for people to walk over, etc. if someone wants a girl like that, they're probably womanizers.

the idea that all or most men want a girl who also plays video games and watches football isn't entirely true, i don't think. opposites attract so i think many people prefer someone different than them. as for what "femininity" means, it's cultural and generally subjective. for the most part, it's nurturing, empathy, sensitivity, gracefulness, and gentleness. men can have some feminine traits, just as women can have some masculine traits.

if you want examples, ask yourself why the vast majority of daycare workers and nurses are female, while the vast majority of engineers and mechanics are men. most women are feminine and most men are masculine - women like working with people, while men like working with things.

Flightlessbirbz · 2024-03-11T19:05:51+00:00

Partially agree but not quite. Men do want women to perform femininity, but not usually in the trad way or the way “feminine energy” influencers tend to claim. Looking feminine is a huge part of performing femininity. So is making him feel smart and showing interest in his interests. For example, men like that Sydney knows about cars, but they wouldn’t like it if she didn’t wear makeup, dressed like a tomboy, and lectured and corrected them about cars. Cool Girl isn’t emotional, needy, or dramatic, but she also doesn’t challenge him or show him up.

purplish_possum · 2024-03-11T19:54:16+00:00

Hell yeah its overblown. Last thing I want is another dependent. Women today need to have their own educations and own careers.

kvakerok_v2 · 2024-03-12T18:13:10+00:00

lmao @ "perform femininity". Most women on this sub don't know how to cook, do laundry by hand and haven't even held an iron in their hands. They can't take care of themselves, why would we even expect them to take care of us?

Commercial_Tea_8185 · 2024-03-10T20:36:33+00:00

I am actually repulsed by the idea of my passions and interests being reduced to a ‘turn on’

__I____ · 2024-03-11T09:09:11+00:00

Yes and no I think. I think men and women might have different ideas of feminity, and I think the louder men on the issue are a minority. Tbh I think most men who want a feminine partner want someone who is pretty, grateful, and not stuck up or aggressive. To me being competent is hella attractive and I would say associating femininity with some things it gets associated with is kinda fucked up, like weakness or not able to do things. When a girl also has interests that I have it feels like we can share over that. I think masculine men and feminine women is totally cool and ok and we don't need to attack it, but I would also say that these guys who cheer for feminine women are ultimately insecure about their masculinity. Some day your partner is going to excel at something, perhaps something masculine, over you and you can't really do anything about that. Where I say no is just from something I've been thinking about lately. I think a lot of this Internet debate comes from a consistent phenomenon of men being disappointed in modern women and women being disappointed in modern men. I know a lot of guys online and irl who identify as femboys and I think it comes from a desire for feminity in the world. Most girls I know wear pants and stuff like that so one could argue in a lot of areas that women aren't so feminine anymore but I'm not really saying either way. I just know how it is from myself as participating in the femboy community in the past, thoughts I would get were sometimes like "these clothes look so cute but nobody wears stuff like this anymore" or "I don't know why girls I know would dress like they do when it's so fun to dress like this" Feminity and masculinity are really abstract concepts anyway and the purple pill stuff is really toxic these days. I tell men and women they should stay away from it if they can. They should realize that they won't please anyone, like for this example I know loads of dudes who want tomboys specifically and dudes who want the opposite, no one will ever make everyone happy. And men and women should come to terms with the behaviors in the past that led them to generalize people in the first place. We generalize to try not to get hurt again, I know that is what it's like for me. Ultimately it's really silly to put all people of one type in one category, even if many generalizations tend to be true on average, I just wanted to add that because I think it's important to tell people who visit this community often.

coping_man · 2024-03-11T11:09:42+00:00

i dont know what simone de beauvoir shit some posters here might be tripping on but a woman's "feminity" is mostly just a matter of her literally existing and breathing air

izoldetales · 2024-03-10T22:32:35+00:00

An easy example to avoid all the complicated words used .

An 18 yo girl who look like Elle fanning is holding a PS5 remote with a messy bun and a long t-shirt ( no pants ) and siting on her boyfriend lap playing games (it's easy to spot the femininity in this situation. )

Now, let's put her in a situation where she reject every men who asked her out without needing her man's guidance ( It's easy to spot masculinity here )

Being good at her career ( easy to spot the masculinity here )

Wear dresses and accessories , cute voice and less vulgar words , heavily expressing every emotion. ( easy to spot feminity )

The problem started rising when high value men were paired with any type of women beside feminine women in the media . Basically the idea that feminine women will never be as good as a partner for high value men who were always written as people who love women based on things outside of feminity and beauty . ( Hell, sometimes we don't even know why the guy love the girl)

Basically, . women who are known to love being in the spot light need to be " strong and independent " to gain those spot light. It's really common to see people praise masculine women but in reality every one is in drown to feminine women even gay men and lesbian women.

Title	Is it just me, or is the idea that men want women to perform “femininity” largely overblown?
Author	JonMyMon
Upvotes	39
Comments	156
Date	March 10, 2024 7:27 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1bbingw/is_it_just_me_or_is_the_idea_that_men_want_women/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-it-just-me-or-is-the-idea-that-men-want-women.1426376 https://theredarchive.com/post/1426376

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