I fully, 100%, believe in a woman's right to choose. I also believe in a man's right to choose. Why is this a crazy take?

flaumo · 2024-07-27T15:43:51+00:00

Well, this is why we need paper abortions.

The problem is society thinks men "need to take responsibility" for their actions, also known as hyperagency, whereas women are let off the hook, also known as hypoagency.

I once told a feminist about my reproductive rape, my partner secretly quitting the pill, and why it would be unfair to pay in this case. Her comment was to choose my partner more wisely. So yes, it is an uphill battle to get equal rights.

sanitaryinspector · 2024-07-27T17:15:12+00:00

From Italy's supreme court (not an exact quote) multiple times in the last 40 years:

"There's no need for a man's will to procreate for him to become a father (...) if this was the opposite, it would collide with the laws on abortion"

So a 1947 constitution and a 1978 law were written upon the implicit consensus that only a woman's consent is required for conception to happen, and for the baby to be born and raised for the next 20 years.

... To the point that sperm theft, other than being deemed legally impossible, isn't even taken into account, due to the quote above.

Rape on men can't be truly unlawful with that law principle in place too, because consent to procreation is a step after consent to sex.

WeEatBabies · 2024-07-27T16:32:36+00:00

I'm 100% with you.

Women have access to the safe-heavens/safe-surrenders laws, we men want the same thing!

galacticdude7 · 2024-07-27T17:35:31+00:00

One of the most ironic/annoying aspects of this is when 100% Pro-Choice women bring out many of the exact same arguments that Pro-Life people trot out whenever men want paper abortions, mainly the "If you weren't prepared to raise kids, then you shouldn't have had sex" argument.

I am 100% in favor of women having the right to terminate a pregnancy, which I believe for a variety of reasons, but there can be no equality between the sexes if men don't have a similar right to terminate their parental rights and obligations.

If you believe that women should have abortion rights but men shouldn't have paper abortion rights and should be at the mercy of a one time consensual partner whether or not they'll be subjected to 18 years of government mandated earnings theft, then you are not in favor of gender equality, you are a female supremacist.

_name_of_the_user_ · 2024-07-28T01:36:46+00:00

Legal Paternal Surrender was first publicly discussed (to the best of my knowledge) by Karen Decrow, a feminist activist and former president of the National Organization for Women, the largest women's rights group in the world.

She said

"One aspect of equality between women and men is economics. Anatomy has determined that only women have the right to choose natural parenthood. The courts have properly determined that a man should neither be able to force a woman to have an abortion nor to prevent her from having one, should she so choose. Justice therefore dictates that if a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support. Or, put another way, autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice."

Langland88 · 2024-07-27T17:15:58+00:00

I agree and I also believe we need to start creating laws that crack down on paternity fraud in the process. Aside from the idea of a paper abortion, there is also a lot of women who name a guy they may have been together with, even for a night, as a father. So even if this woman may have slept with a handful of dudes in the brief period of her baby being conceived, she could easily name the one man in that period, who she felt was the most financially well off. It doesn't matter if that kid belongs to that man or not, she'll put him on the hook for child support thus increasing the chance of paternity fraud happening in the process. Also with how hard it is to have paternity tests around the world, that also contributes to the chances of a paternity fraud. Just my thoughts on this too. I feel like paper abortions could help crack down on paternity fraud.

JustHereForGiner79 · 2024-07-27T15:43:36+00:00

Men don't get choices. Women get choices.

CeleryMan20 · 2024-07-27T20:50:36+00:00

If there was taxpayer-funded support for single parents, then there would be less need to find a bread-winner and make them pay. (Single parents usually being mothers but could be a widower or a father with sole custody. The programme should be gender-neutral for equality and fairness.)

Also, tax-funded support for non-single parents, such as subsidised or tax-deductible child care, would also be beneficial for society. E.g. allowing women to return to work, less financial burden on the (putative) father too.

This stuff is good for men and women.

Would never happen in the USA because the whole country is too right-leaning and obsessed with “my taxes ain’t going to no deadbeats who can't keep their pants on” attitudes. Selfish? Puritan?

Compare what someone else commented about societal expectations of male hyperagency and female hypoagency. I wonder if, gender norms aside, this can also apply to different countries and cultures: does US expect more hyperagency in general from people? (Capitalist dream, supposed meritocracy (yeah right), you too can be successful, if you're not successful then you’re undeserving, etc.) Australia and UK aren't much better. We do have tax spending on social welfare like single mothers' pension, though AFAIK the payment isn't enough to make ends meet.

Steelyeyedj · 2024-07-28T01:44:07+00:00

I had this conversation with my mother the other day (we were watching ‘Emmerdale’ & there’s a story about a pregnant ex & the man not being interested in the baby) & I couldn’t believe how obstinate she was being about what I was saying.

I stated my belief that if a woman can chose whether to abort a baby or not (a choice I fully support) then it was only fair that a man should be able to chose whether he wants to be involved in any way with the child’s life & that being lumbered financially with supporting a child he had no say in having wasn’t right.

I got a wall of “no, he has to pay for the child”, “you’re wrong” & “he could have used contraception”.

I’m sorry, but choice should be available to both sides for their to be true equality.

I would never allow a man to force an abortion on a woman - so why should a man have the financial support of a child he did not want forced upon him?

Why is one wrong but the other isn’t? It boggles the mind…

cosmatical · 2024-07-27T21:20:40+00:00

I agree with this to an extent-- but just like abortion, I think a "paper" abortion needs to be decided before the fetus is viable.

If a pregnant woman decides to keep a pregnancy, it's not fair for the other involved party to hem and haw or back and forth on whether he wants to be involved or not. Or, to change his mind once the pregnancy has reached viability or the baby is born.

Yknow? Like, I think that's as fair as we can make it. Both the pregnant person and the person who did the impregnating get the same ~20 weeks to decide what they want to do.

TaskComfortable6953 · 2024-07-27T18:53:03+00:00

I think the average woman immediately feels threatened by it because they assume it will threaten their rights (even though it clearly doesn’t).

Then some women in bad faith assume lots of men will just leave them with a kid but that’s a man’s choice just as much as it’s a woman’s choice to abort. Just as there’s many female abortions there will be many men paper abortions. This is just the reality of life. Consenting to sex doesn’t mean consenting to having a child. Also, accidents do happen regardless of how much contraception is used.

Also, the likelihood of a women abusing a man in divorce court by weaponizing custody disputes, child supports, and alimony will go down. MEANING, women as a collective will have less privilege and superiority in society. I don’t think they take a liking to having less privilege and superiority.

Edit to add:

There’s about a million abortions a year so I imagine there would be just as many paper abortions. Paper abortions may cause abortions to consequentially rise in the short term but I think in the long run both forms of abortion will remain consistent based on the population.

CharmingSama · 2024-07-28T10:30:25+00:00

The 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

iv often wondered how forcing men into a 18 year contract, that strips him of his freedom to choose whether to be a father or not, just like the choice women have to choose to be a mother or not, does not constitute indentured servitude. thereby violating the 13th amendment. women are not forced into motherhood, legally speaking in the way men are when it comes to fatherhood. are we saying that conception is a crime that men are required to be indentured to serving? it doesn't make sense to me...

im not saying I condone dead beat dads or anything, I just question why women are allowed to choose to accept or reject motherhood, but men are not free to get the same choice?

edit, and then there's men who are forced into a contract to pay for children that they did not even conceive. I question how that is even considered legal.. how there is not even due process like paternity test at birth to determine fatherhood. its a mess.

EphemeralGlow · 2024-07-27T21:25:31+00:00

I've always thought this too. If a woman wants to keep a baby, it doesn't seem fair that the man is forced to become a father and then forced to financially support something he never wanted to begin with. If it were me, I wouldn't force a man to pay child support if he was firmly opposed to having the child.

But how do you solve or enforce this issue? How anti-baby does the man have to be before he is eligible for no child support or responsibility toward the child? What is he's 50/50 about it? Like, he kinda wants a baby but kinda doesn't. How late in the game can he change his mind? Surely it isn't fair if he supports having a child until 9 months, but changes his mind at the last minute before the kid is born?

Also, as a woman, if I were pregnant and didn't want to be, but the baby's father wanted to keep it, I would strongly consider keeping the baby and then giving it to the father to raise, on the understanding that I would have no further responsibility toward the child. Yes, it's ultimately "my body my choice", but it's almost always more complicated than that. There are interests above and beyond my body to consider here.

hottake_toothache · 2024-07-28T08:23:59+00:00

Because people don't care about men. Abortion is a great example. Look at the hand-wringing about how an unwanted child disrupts a woman's life, and contrast it to the total lack of caring for the man.

ReadItProper · 2024-07-28T03:04:48+00:00

This made sense at a time when women had a much harder time providing for themselves, so this paradigm was created to make sure the child gets a fair chance at life. This was also at a time without the many types of contraceptives we have today (for both men and women). It was just never really revisited once those changes happened.

Now, though? If a woman wants to have a child and the man tells them outright they don't, they probably can (at a large cost for their own life's convenience, of course) take care of it alone. Obviously a man shouldn't be able to force a woman to go through medical procedures, but it makes sense they shouldn't be forced into a family they don't want to be in, either.

CoachDT · 2024-07-27T15:58:23+00:00

I think the hard sell here is that there needs to be some degree of fairness to all parties involved, and its really hard to establish that. If women don't universally have the right to choose in an informed, and free manner (coerced choice isn't a choice) then men can't really have the right to back out given the horrible spot it leaves the other party. If abortions were free and universally protected then i'd be totally fine with men, so long as there's a proper heads up (so you can't back out days before the baby is due) being able to completely give up rights to parenthood.

No child support. However no visitation or resurfacing into the childs life. No takebacks.

Revan0315 · 2024-07-27T20:53:32+00:00

Yea we need something like that. Legal abortion

yuendeming1994 · 2024-07-28T15:45:25+00:00

While i believe nearly no valid arguments againist paper abortion, do men have the right to force the woman to give birth to child or ask for compensation if the woman insist?

Fuzzy_Department2799 · 2024-07-28T16:44:16+00:00

Because society demands that men pay for womens choices. Tou don't expect her to raise that baby without the unwilling fathers money, do you? The state is going to make sure she gets money from the father to ensure they aren't paying for her mistakes as well.

Content_Lychee_2632 · 2024-07-30T14:02:10+00:00

I don’t believe a non-carrying person should be able to determine if the pregnancy continues, but they should be able to fully decide to cut all legal, social, and financial ties. Hand with that, we also need to cut the stigma about non-carrying parents who decide not to stay. It’s not always an evil act, baby traps exist.

Alarming_Guide_5924 · 2024-07-28T00:04:00+00:00

chappelle. ur body ur choice. my wallet my choice. if u want him to commit.......get married to a committed man and stay away from playboys.

2024-07-27T19:25:55+00:00

To be honest, I don't think there's ever going to be a solution to this issue that leaves everyone happy.

I think a lot of the issue comes from the fact that we are still coming out of a society in which women weren't expected to work. While it feels like we've progressed far (and to some extent, that's true) - women are still not given the degree of opportunities men have with respect to job and the workplace. So a woman raising a child, 100% on her own, is very difficult. It's only become more difficult as people struggle to raise children even with two parents on a single income. And if a mother is raising a child with no partner, she also needs to pay more in childcare. So having an option for men to opt out of raising children if a woman chooses to get an abortion leads to the mother and child being much worse off and really struggling. And yes, the same could be said for a single father raising a child, but that is less common and not the topic at hand.

That being said - from a moral perspective? I absolutely agree with you. Both options aren't great - it's a typical dilemma. There's a moral option (men can opt out of being a parent) that doesn't really work in practice (due to the cost of raising a child), and a practical option (men must pay child support) that is a moral double standard when we say that women can choose not to raise a child.

Honestly - there's not really a great fix here unless there's more funding for women choosing to raise children on their own. IMO, the best fix would be for money spent lobbying against abortions to go towards people raising children on their own, so that if someone wants to have a child but cannot afford it, they're in a better situation. Overall, I can really see both perspectives and the unfortunate reality that there's no perfect fix.

eli_ashe · 2024-07-29T03:20:24+00:00

i've held off on this issue for purely political reasons. gonna do so here too, but make a note of it. there are problems with how choices to have or not have children are being made.

beowulves · 2024-08-02T02:34:34+00:00

It's nice thought in a vacuum but ultimately a man cannot have a child ethically without a woman's consent so he has no innate reproductive rights, he is completely at a woman's mercy on the matter that's why reproductive rights are the mess they are. Unless things like artificial wombs become part of reality and an actual serious conversation on men having actual reproductive rights that doesn't ultimately come down to a woman's permission it's sort of a dead subject.

You're 100% right though that the man should have a his body his choice policy too. She should be required to state upfront her intentions and if she changes her mind after the fact then he should have 0 liability. In my experience go with the flow situations where she says let's just live in the moment always means in reality she reserves the right to screw you over at a moments notice, that situation will never mean that what is in your best interest will be a part of the conversation.

She wanted a kid, she wanted it with him, he provided the genetic material. Done deal. Whether he stays involved if at all is a matter of negotiation and should not be subject to coercion of any kind. If she wants a man to also be a father figure it's not a hard task to find a man who wants to be a father. If she wants one man to provide genes and another to be a father that's fine too there's plenty of people who like that kind of arrangement. It's a matter of when she tries to exploit her reproductive system to entrap men either for resources or trying to get him to stick around with her that it becomes a serious crime. Even worse when they hurt the children hoping to spite a man.

beowulves · 2024-08-02T02:41:06+00:00

I think one big thing no one likes to talk about is everyone has the right to choose but expecting to also control the consequences of said choices is like blaming the object on the floor that you stubbed your toe on, and not you watching where you were going. Rights happen at the beginning, choice begins at cause. The effects are a byproduct of the cause so if you want a different effect you choose a different cause. People are talking about effects as if they should have a say in it when the only way to change effect is to change the cause.

Top_Mention4203 · 2024-11-19T21:12:49+00:00

It's not. Problem is that the "Patriarchy" loves to berate men, if it makes sense.

Proud_Rural · 2024-07-27T16:02:01+00:00

Wouldn't it lead to the aggravation of the problem of fatherless kids grown by single mothers without any financial support? While financial "abortion" would be desirable from the standpoint of equality and consistency, as women have a similar right in most European and some American countries, there is one difference. An abortion results in a lack of a child who would need to be fed, clothed and provided with housing.

On the other hand, financial "abortion" doesn't erase babies' needs. They still have to be supported by someone. And not every single mother is able to support such a baby alone. Some need financial help to do it.

Of course, as it's a left-wing community, I suppose most people here support welfare.

However, raising a child isn't only about money. If we legalised paper "abortion", wouldn't we make a generation of fatherless children suffering from it mentally in their later lives? Imagine r/financiallyabortedkid sub (or something similar) which could be created in the future - and these people would share their experiences as those abandoned by their dads. Wouldn't it be a sort of a lost generation? Sure, such things happen currently. But paper "abortion" would aggravate the problem.

P.S. The problem of unwanted pregnancies could be much rarer if people rejected casual hookups. But considering the fact that opinions outside sex-positivity aren't exactly popular nowadays, I won't elaborate here on this topic (especially as I'm generally antisex). I'm not going to entangle myself in dramas/arguments.

Alarming_Guide_5924 · 2024-07-28T00:08:29+00:00

i thought this post might be about circumcision

ThatQueerWerewolf · 2024-07-27T16:57:22+00:00

I agree with you that this is how it should be. I think part of the reason it's not is because women have never had complete choice over their bodies, and even less so now (in the US). Abortion has always come with restrictions, road blocks, and price tags that have always made it inaccessible to many. I think that some people just have a hard time thinking about men having complete choice because it would only make sense when women also have complete choice, and we are unfortunately getting farther away from that in many places.

Until women have more control over their own bodies, it takes two to tango and it wouldn't be fair for one gender to be able to easily get out of the situation when the other can't. I don't know when the right time to make this argument would be, but I'm personally focusing more on the abortion issue right now because that does affect everyone, and women are dying without this essential healthcare.

Edit: It's very disappointing to me that this comment is getting so many downvotes without a single person telling me what they disagree with. Can anybody really argue that women have the full right to choose, especially now? You can't argue "if women can get abortions, men should also be able to get paper abortions" if women can't get abortions- it's really basic logic. Isn't this supposed to be about the sexes getting equal choice and equal power? Do you all only claim to support abortion when the claim benefits your own cause, the same way feminists never actually bring up men's issues except to say "feminism helps men, too!" in arguments?

2024-07-28T23:34:24+00:00

It's not her body that's getting aborted.

demonio_37 · 2024-07-28T05:01:13+00:00

If a man and a woman have consensual sex, and the woman gets pregnant, she is allowed to decide singularly whether she is keeping the child. Her body, her choice. 100% I agree. It does not matter how much the man wants the kid, would raise it on his own, would be a perfect dad, etc.

Glad we agree.

Why then, if a man and woman have sex and the woman gets pregnant, can she say "no, not only am I having the kid, you are too"

I mean, you can't be forced to be a dad. The law just forces you to support economically the child that you made.

In my opinion, if a woman can say she doesn't want a child after sex, a man should be able to as well. It is still his body, which he will then use and abuse hard for years to pay for a fully unwanted kid. If a woman can say no having kids, a man should be able to as well. I support abortion access and man's financial ability to deny a child.

The thing is that in the case of the woman the decision of having a baby or choosing abortion is hers because it's her body going trough a process so it's reasonable she has final say. Just like a man has the right of having final say to issues of his body.

You make it sound like if child support was the government infringing in your bodily autonomy. Do you also think like that of taxes.

And finally while in a vaccum you could say that it's unfair that men have to support economically even if they dont want to do it, but i think that the right for the kid to be better of economically should supercede what the men wants.

blackheartwhiterose · 2024-07-28T16:35:57+00:00

Because you can't force someone to have an abortion, and children have rights.

There are plenty of hypocrisies to complain about but sexual reproduction is one thing that will never be equal. You know this

Key_Tangerine8775 · 2024-07-27T17:48:33+00:00

I’m going to get downvoted, but I strongly disagree. The right to an abortion is because of bodily autonomy, not because you shouldn’t have to support a child. The two things you’re referring to are not comparable, with the exception of if the father did not consent to sex.

Child support is meant for the wellbeing of the child. A child requires resources whether you wanted a child or not. The child support system (at least in the US) is terribly flawed, but the solution is not eliminating it. The solution is reforming the system, a better social welfare system, and prevention of unplanned pregnancy in the first place by sex education and development of more male contraceptive options.

wx_rebel · 2024-07-28T03:19:40+00:00

I'll get downvoted but I disagree with the main principle. I may be in oddity in this group in that I'm a Pro-Life. Excluding rape, both parents made a choice to have sex and both should have to support the results of that choice. If neither want the baby, then adoption is always an option.

That being said, I do agree that the current laws don't make sense. As it stands, abortion is a mess with regard to parental rights. Women can terminate if they want, even if the father wants to keep and raise the child as a single parent. The opposite is not true. From a rights perspective, that makes no legal sense but that is unlikely to change unless someone makes a compelling Supreme Court case for it.

DrankTooMuchMead · 2024-07-28T01:31:35+00:00

Because if he says, "yes, we are having the kid," and so they have to do it, hen she isn't choosing.

Also, men can make more kids throughout his life. Women have only a limited number of eggs.

Title	I fully, 100%, believe in a woman's right to choose. I also believe in a man's right to choose. Why is this a crazy take?
Author	_paranoid-android_
Upvotes	246
Comments	155
Date	July 27, 2024 12:06 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1edeu0q/i_fully_100_believe_in_a_womans_right_to_choose_i/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/i-fully-100-believe-in-a-womans-right-to-choose-i.1525481 https://theredarchive.com/post/1525481

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