Genuinely curious about it

SpicyMarshmellow · 2024-12-25T17:02:40+00:00

I normally say that I reject the notion of patriarchy, because I know what they really mean when they say it.

If what they meant was the neutral observation that men occupied most positions of institutional power through most of history, I would of course not object to that observation. This is unarguably true.

But they don't. The way they describe patriarchy out loud all the time is that human history is characterized by a massive conspiracy amongst almost all men with the intention to oppress all women.

It's quite easy to explain the differences in men & women's historical positions in society, without any implication of mustache-twirling evil necessary. Most women throughout history were not treated like slaves or property. And it's impossible to suggest that almost all men intentionally conspired with each other to oppress almost all women for over 10,000 years without this being a gender essentialist statement about men - that there is something innately evil about them.

The way feminists use the word patriarchy today is a great example of how they use motte & bailey arguments. They take something that is true, and trojan horse a whole toxic narrative demonizing half the population along with it. Then when you disagree with their toxic narrative, they will accuse you of also denying the basic truth.

White_Immigrant · 2024-12-25T18:00:58+00:00

I'm an atheist, I don't believe in anything that doesn't have evidence to back it up. The patriarchy is a conspiracy theory based on the apex fallacy, and inspired by ideas such as anti Semitic conspiracy theories, and religious notions of original sin. I can even give you something simple to observe to make you question whether you think the patriarchy is real yourself. Find a local WW1 or WW2 memorial and read the names, they'll all have something in common.

Perfect-Parking-8413 · 2024-12-25T17:00:23+00:00

13 men a day in the UK (where I am from) take there own lives and 1 man a hour dies from prostate cancer if patriarchy exists I want a word with it

Professional-You2968 · 2024-12-25T16:26:15+00:00

You should explain us how patriarchy exists instead.

Vast majority of homeless are men, millions dying in war, losing in education, having shorter lives and thus enjoying less years of retirement.

If a patriarchy existed it's making a damn bad job.

Patriarchy is a conspiracy theory that has the only purpose of keeping the feminist cult alive.

flaumo · 2024-12-25T17:30:10+00:00

I believe feminists misunderstand what „patriarchy“ means for men.

Traditionally men have been forced to operate in hierarchies: the military, the government, the factory. Their traditional gender role of stoicism and enduring adversity was designed to make them functioning in these harsh environments.

But here is the catch: although all men were forced to operate in these hierarchies, very few came out on top. We only needed that many CEOs, presidents and generals. It is questionable whether men as a group profited from being in those hierarchies. If you look at the outcomes for men as a group they are consistently worse than for women: more homelessness, addiction, suicide, violence, shorter life expectancy, less support and compassion.

Minimum_Guitar4305 · 2024-12-25T18:39:10+00:00

Patriarchy is unfalsfiable, therefore unprovable scientifically. It is simply a theoretical framework, or lens to be used in analysis (a useful one) but no more valid than any other competing framework.

That is not what feminists do, or how they utilise it. Instead, it is considered a grand male power conspiracy, one that we are all supposedly guilty of perpetuating.

outcastedOpal · 2024-12-25T18:15:10+00:00

What most people call patriarchy isn't about men at all. %1 of men are above 99% of women, sure. But that's not a fair comparison. Men are also poorer than women en masse. Men are historically the biggest victims of homelessness and poverty. The stats are scued by a handful of upper-class men.

Men are also the biggest victims of every single violent crime, except sexual assault. And it's actually a lot closer then everyone thinks because, 1)men don't report it, 2)when men do report it, it's taken as a joke. 3) what women consider abuse, men don't event understand that they are the victims of. When a man is too drunk to consent, and a women is slightly tipsy and she takes advantage of him. He is way more likely to get arrested for it than she is, despite him being the victim.

This also applies to domestic violence. Have you ever seen a women slap a man? Very common right? How often have you seen a man slap a women and get away with it. Or simply, how often have you seen a man slap a woman at all.

Men are the overwhelming victims of murder, battery, assault, armed robbery, theft of any kind. Also, untreated mental illness, suicide, poverty, homelessness, lack of shelters, drug addiction. They are more likely to be illiterate, less likely to go to university, less likely to graduate from university or highschool. And are less likely to get custody of their children, even when accounting for the parents that don't want custody. Even when the women is proven to be abusive in some capacity, or unable to care for the child properly.

Men are almost uniquely the victims of workplace death and injury. Like 90 something percent. Men are more likely give up on their chosen career or chose a career that makes them less happy due to financial pressure.

Breast cancer and prostate cancer appear at very similar rates, but prostate cancer research gets a third of the funding. If you think that it's just a fenomenon of breast cancer and the fact that it's become marketable then let's look at something else. Testicular cancer and ovarian cancer also appears at similar rates, but testicular cancer research gets half the funding. The reason everyone thinks that there is a bias against women in the medical field is because, well there used to be. And there still is in some capacity. But women are more likely to advocate for themselves if they disagree with the doctor. They are also note likely to get a proper diagnoses if they do self advocate. Men are more likely to die from untreated of undertreated medical conditions.

People often say that women aren't allowed to express anger and men aren't allowed to express sadness. This isn't true. Women are allowed to express anger. Maybe they aren't taken as seriously. But men simply aren't allowed to express anger. At all. It's seen as abusive. Or sadness. And a lot of the times, men are judged for expressing happiness.

The concept of a partriarchy is a systems build by men to benefit only men. I don't see that. I see a system built by rich people that ultimately hurts men the most out of everyone. Even if men recieve some benefit, that benefit will never outweight all the bad shot that I've listed.

Also the pink tax is a lie. Women have over 80% of the purchasing power. Gendered marleting also affects men. Women spend more on razors marketed for women. They choose to buy those razors. Men spend more money on hair care and skincare products marketed to men. Also because they choose to buy it. It's gendered marketing. Corporations don't care if you're a man or women. They only care how much money you're willing to spend.

TheSpaceShip_Ghost · 2024-12-25T17:39:37+00:00

Patriarchy i feel has lost all meaning in our modern age especially as we enter this late stage in our oppressive society no one male is getting benefits of that so called patriarchy system unless they are already part of the top 1% percent of economic class and at that point it’s a class issue

Mysterious-Citron875 · 2024-12-25T16:33:54+00:00

"Patriarchy" is just a buzzword used to blame everything on men, like a conspiracy theory.

Patriarchy with it's useful definition does exist, aka a society ruled by an extremely small minority of men, but contrary to popular belief, it benefits women and oppresses men.

BaroloBaron · 2024-12-25T17:04:27+00:00

It's an ill-defined concept, and as such you can easily motivate its existence and also its inexistence.

CeleryMan20 · 2024-12-25T20:27:42+00:00

Patriarchy proper is where the senior man is head of the extended family, and has real influence over running the family unit. Women of the family could still wield considerable soft power, though.

In societies like ancient Rome where only landholders vote for the Senate, the pater familias would be the one to cast that vote. In European monarchies, inheritance by primogeniture is to the the oldest surviving son, yet a daughter would take precedence over a nephew. There are still cultures where “I’m the man of the house” has weight, but I don’t think that is the case in the West.

Taking the term out of sociology and using it as a metaphor for some ill-defined bogeyMAN is not helpful.

Do you “believe in patriarchy”, FewVoice? If so, why? And what is your definition of “patriarchy”?

captainhornheart · 2024-12-25T21:26:36+00:00

In order to claim that women are systemically oppressed, feminists appropriated the term "patriarchy" from anthropology, twisting its meaning to suit their purposes. The systemic oppression isn't real, and therefore patriarchy theory isn't either. The dishonest way that the concept is manipulated to mean anything feminists want it to mean is quite infuriating, and betrays their bad faith.

Looking objectively at our society reveals not a patriarchy but a socio-economic class system, one in which rich and powerful women are far more privileged than the vast majority of men. To explain why men are more likely to be at the top and bottom of society, we need only look at the more extreme and varied psychology of men, and at gynocentrism, which itself is due to psychological biases. Along with biological factors, these explain virtually all of the differences between men and women in society, with no need for an overcomplicated, vague, ever-changing and self-contradictory conspiracy theory called "the patriarchy". Most galling of is when feminists claim that the patriarchy harms men too, which is surely the most absurd part of the theory.

2024-12-25T20:40:34+00:00

Because, for it to be called Patriarchy, men should be the winners and the privilliged of that system. But men are definitely the loosers and women are definitely the privilliged of it. Litterally, it is the opposite of what feminists claim. All the statistics show the other way around. What you call patriarchy is a system which comes from the early hunter gatherers, where male were thrown into the wild to protect and provide for women. And we are still living in the shadow of that mentality. Both women and men, together upheld that system. But now it is all blamed on men, while women themselves got exactly the same mentality. Men today are seen as just tools to provide for women. Women took away the female gender roles for themselves but men are still forced to live according to gender roles, which are almost always forced by women on men. Just to give you an example: Women get 60 procent less sentences for the same crimes they commit in the US. This is exactly how society sees women. Women start life by being loved and spoiled. Men don't. And an example from my own life as a gay man of color: Litterally all my bullies have always been and are women. Especially white women. But my whole life I walked around hating white men. See the brainwash? Women are always forgiven and less hated and reacted even when they are being racist and homophobic. I know a lot of gay man who got exactly the same experience. What feminists and women call Patriarchy is nothing but Gynocentricsm.

mynuname · 2024-12-25T23:23:08+00:00

I think that we definitely have a social paradigm that influences the way we view and react to gender stereotypes that is hurtful to both men and women. Many feminists call this patriarchy. I wish there was a better word for it that didn't seem to imply that it is about men in power, because I believe it is really an emergent property. Not something that was consciously engineered or enforced by anyone.

Richardsnotmyname · 2024-12-26T05:15:36+00:00

I think the best way to answer your question is by asking a question.

Is there genuinely a time where the “patriarchy” is brought up by feminist that doesn’t just pretty much boil down to blaming men not only for their issues, but also for our issues?

Like is there an argument significantly made with the concept of the patriarchy that doesn’t boil down to “who set that system up?”

I think you can understand why people don’t like the idea here.

No-Knowledge-8867 · 2024-12-26T00:43:18+00:00

I'd be really interested now to hear what OP thinks of patriarchy? How would they describe it? Has their opinion of patriarchy changed?

Apprehensive-Sock606 · 2024-12-25T20:10:16+00:00

I think it’s so vague it’s practically meaningless, and it becomes unfalsifiable because few to no particulars are provided. People who use the term don’t even provide enough details or particulars about ‘the patriarchy’, they just assert it as an established truth - a undefined thing yet also a foundation of reality. So there is no arguing with these people, you can’t. They’re not really saying anything specific. It’s more like a paranoia at this point lol.

A_Fine_Potato · 2024-12-25T16:37:38+00:00

There is a hierarchy that exists, however it affects men positively and negatively. Most ceos are male, most workplace accidents are male. Rapists and other violent men can get very low prison sentences, but for small crimes men usually get longer prison sentences for the same crime than women. There are many examples of this, where the patriarchy doesn't include most men, just a minority. And with men equally disadvantaged as women by "patriarchy" in most western countries, calling it society a system ruled by men is very flawed.

Langland88 · 2024-12-25T21:00:55+00:00

I feel it's a boogeyman that Feminists have manufactured nowadays. It's what they use to justify their existence as a movement today. Women have all the rights that men have and yet Feminists insist that they don't. When you look at much of the first world nations, you'll see that women have held positions of power including being the leader in many of them. Sure the United States has yet to have a Female President but we still had a Female Vice President which is the 2nd in Command. If we truly had a patriarchy at this moment, none of that would have ever happened. Also if you notice, it's also a term that's used to demonize men as a collective as well. I feel like Feminists also use the term as a catch all to try and rope in men's issues as being the fault of the Patriarchy so that way they can actually act like they care about Men's issues.

IntrepidDifference84 · 2024-12-25T23:40:26+00:00

Because they think all men are the patriarchy (male privilege). Its more class than anything. There are some women who have influence even more powerful than men.

amjh · 2024-12-26T14:05:05+00:00

Upper class women have more power and influence that lower class men.

Upper-Divide-7842 · 2024-12-27T15:38:50+00:00

Because Patriarchy theory, as described by feminists does not comport to reality and is also INTERNALLY inconsistent.

It checks all the boxes on the "this idea is probably not true" checklist.

Alternative_Poem445 · 2024-12-26T13:51:02+00:00

because we live in an oligarchy. you dont get money and power for having a penis. i am unaware of any invisible hand that gives people a systematic advantage for being a man. i believe their are chauvinists who are misogynistic but not a patriarchy.

Glum_Rent_9765 · 2024-12-26T22:27:05+00:00

If we are living in a patriarchy, we're doing an absolute shit job. When are we taking away women's rights, lads?

WeEatBabies · 2024-12-25T17:41:49+00:00

Here you go :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpPt6uqHapM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayy3B77thsc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRuLJnxL2lA

Stellakinetic · 2024-12-25T21:04:53+00:00

Because secretly women have always held sway over the men that “rule” the world, while men do the work to make things happen and bear the responsibility of failures. Men love women. Men don’t like women to be unhappy, so men do what their wives say. Just because it’s men “doing” the things, doesn’t mean women are helpless slaves.

This is obviously not always the case, as there is nuance to everything and some men as well as women are just narcissistic evil assholes controlled by nothing but their own greed and thirst for power. I’m also not saying women have never been victimized. But in the overarching view of history, the only reason men were ever seen as the ones “in power” is because women prefer to work through manipulation and let men do the work for them while they were safe and busy with things like family. If you’re a man, I think you can agree that your primal purpose and drive on this earth is to protect and provide for the people you love.

Like I said, there are evil selfish people in the world, but most men do what they do, build cities, run governments, rule the world, etc., in order to make women happy & safe.

Behind every patriarchy is a shadow matriarchy. Now I will definitely admit women haven’t ever gotten enough credit for ideas through history, but that’s just because it’s easier to credit the person that did something rather than the person that thought of something

eli_ashe · 2024-12-26T06:01:23+00:00

im a patriarchal idealist, and i think the reality is a heteronormative complex with a significant queer component.

the former isnt a denial of patriarchy, it is a belief that what folks ar pointing to when they point to patriarchy are merely certain ideological notions; not 'objective real world phenomena'. Patriarchy are specific cultural phenomena we can point to, but they are not 'objective aspects of reality' or as is oft pertinent to point out patriarchy isnt 'biologically driven'.

differing cultures have differing patriarchal and matria cal or queerarchal phenomena associated with them.

thats literally just a boring fact of the matter.

the problems are with the patriarchal realists, and a variety of specific conceptual positions.

so when ive tend to argue against 'patriarchy' it is rather specifically against patriarchal realism and a number of specific conceptual beliefs, like biological essentialism, gender essentialism, or denial of a heteronormative complex. non of which say 'patriarchy doesnt exist, but they definitely say that patriarchy isnt as the feministas, the pop feminists, or broad discourse tends to make it out as.

which honestly ought not be surprising. most of the discourse in the current on feminism and in particular on patriarchy is bullshit.

i suspect most folks responding to the bs in the current discourse are responding to versions of this.

firsthandgeology · 2024-12-26T15:37:01+00:00

Because you can just have a capitalist crisis theory (Keynes, Marx, Henry George, pick your poison) predict 90% of the same outcomes while still remaining gender neutral. If your capitalist crisis theory is not gender neutral and e.g. based on patriarchy, you have a big hole in your theory, because it doesn't actually reflect the experiences of the average men, who are supposed to be the beneficiaries of the patriarchy. You will need to subdivide the patriarchy into classes like Marx did: rich (burgeoisie), upper middle class (petite burgeoisie), middle class and the poor (or lower class). The only thing a theory of patriarchy really adds in this scenario is that women were stuck in the class of their husbands, which was definitively true 200 years ago and still true in islamic states, but not in the developed world. Now that women go to university and work in high paying jobs, even that is questionable, so you just end up with the capitalist crisis theory plus feminism as an optional addon.

If (modern) feminism demonizes men, then why would a man need the optional addon? So you just need to apply Occam's Razor. The simpler theory is the more beautiful or aesthetically pleasing theory. The reader doesn't care if the landlord/capitalist/rentier/whatever is female or male, what religion they subscribe to, whether their skin is black or white or what their nationality is. When you really deeply think about it. Caring about the gender, skin color, nationality or religion of a person takes more brain cells than not doing it. So in reality a lot of biggotry in this world is coming from people going out of their way to be biggots, rather than people born into biggotry.

There is also the problem that if the patriarchy is real, the patriarchy is dumb enough to somehow make women almost 100% responsible for raising future patriarchs. How does the patriarchy propagate/sustain itself all the way back since the dawn of time? I would expect the patriarchy to get weaker and less relevant over time now that we have feminism. Compare Afghanistan with any developed country and you'd realize that feminism has already won the battle against patriarchy.

xaliadouri · 2024-12-25T20:10:45+00:00

Like others in the thread said, we should separate conspiratorial made-up definitions from historical/anthropological ones. This is a long response. But by the end, hopefully patriarchy's meaning & history will be far clearer than usual.

So let's look at the definition offered by anthropologist David Graeber and archaeologist David Wengrow:

‘patriarchy’, after all, refers not primarily to the fact that men wield public office, but first and foremost to the authority of patriarchs, that is, male heads of household – an authority which then acts as a symbolic model for, and economic basis of, male power in other fields of social life.

Ok, so it's not just male authority. But specific men: heads of household. Which can be a model for workplaces (CEOs, etc) and countries (heads of state, etc). They're run like someone's household.

What about matriarchy? They say it's similar: just substitute mothers in the household, as the basis of female authority in other aspects of life. Matriarchies have historically been real enough, and they gave examples.

Ok. So where did the conspiratorial definition of "patriarchy" come from? Feminist bell hooks observed:

Reformist feminist women could not make this call because they were the group of women (mostly white women with class privilege) who had pushed the idea that all men were powerful in the first place. These were the women for whom feminist liberation was more about getting their piece of the power pie and less about freeing masses of women or less powerful men from sexist oppression. They were not mad at their powerful daddies and husbands who kept poor men exploited and oppressed; they were mad that they were not being giving equal access to power. Now that many of those women have gained power, and especially economic parity with the men of their class, they have pretty much lost interest in feminism.

Now, let's consider some specific history. Graeber explains Biblical patriarchy came from a backlash of the indebted poor "against great cities like Uruk, Lagash, and Babylon, seen as places of bureaucrats, traders, and whores." Where your family could be taken away as debt peons, slaves to utter abuse in some stranger's household. They fled to rural environments. So:

'patriarchy' in its more specific Biblical sense: the rule of fathers, with all the familiar images of stern bearded men in robes, keeping a close eye over their sequestered wives and daughters, even as their children kept a close eye over their flocks and herds, familiar from the book of Genesis.

Certainly wasn't primordial. For example, previous Sumerian texts made clear there were female rulers, doctors, merchants, scribes, and public officials, generally free to take part in all aspects of public life.

So that's a quick overview of patriarchy's meaning and history. Far ahead of faith-based "believing in patriarchy." No, we sharpen our toolbox of rational concepts, within theories that help us explain, predict or intervene.

So hopefully it's clear: patriarchy is a social mechanism, in a sea of clashing mechanisms. It can operate, but so did matriarchy. It can be nullified, or partially operate. People can spread illusions about it, with alternative conspiracy theories.

SomeSugondeseGuy · 2024-12-25T20:11:33+00:00

I do believe male privilege exists, but I do not believe it is the be-all-end-all of privilege. Not even close.

Being a man does give me some bonuses, but it absolutely does not give me power, or make me an oppressor. Men are not the main benefactors of society. They never have been.

Our society was not built for men, it was built by men, for the rich and powerful.

For rich, white, oligarchic, men. Of those four things, being a man matters the least.

Our society is a plutocracy.

"Patriarchy", while not being an entirely inaccurate descriptor, is not even close to the most correct definition. It'd be like calling a 500 million dollar superyacht a "personal vehicle" Like - yeah, but that's not even close to the most interesting thing about it.

Women, throughout history, are seen as the childrearers, and men are the disposable employees whose main purpose is to be thrown into trenches and killed in the most horrendous ways imaginable, or being worked to death in factories and coal mines. Both men and women are to be subservient to the ruling class.

Patriarchy is defined as "A society in which men are given the power and women are largely excluded from it"

29.2% of congresspeople are women. If our society was a patriarchy, that number wouldn't be nearly as high.

However, the majority of congress are either rich themselves or beholden to rich donors and benefactors.

Again - it's not an inaccurate descriptor, and I am not at all saying that women don't face disproportionate difficulty in several walks of life, but men also face difficulty in several walks of live. Not as many, sure, but both are valid and worthy of attention.

I am not at all saying that women's issues are taken seriously by society. But I'm not going to pretend that men's are either.

MR_DIG · 2024-12-26T00:29:46+00:00

I don't even need to read the other comments. Most comments on this sub will be someone saying "what they are really saying" because they assume anyone who uses the word patriarchy is talking in code

FewVoice1280 · 2024-12-25T20:23:56+00:00

The patriarchy affects our daily lives negatively. Both men and women. Especially in less developed countries.

Title	Genuinely curious about it
Author	FewVoice1280
Upvotes	30
Comments	111
Date	December 25, 2024 12:14 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1hlzow8/genuinely_curious_about_it/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/genuinely-curious-about-it.1539475 https://theredarchive.com/post/1539475

Comments