336,038 posts

Being controlling is for losers!

by Archwinger on /r/TheRedPill
17 June 2014 05:50 PM UTC

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Many detractors of The Red Pill find the men who subscribe to this body of information to be “controlling.” Nothing could be farther from the truth. The Red Pill promotes something that’s not immediately obvious at first: the complete abdication of any attempt to control anything, except for the one thing you can actually control. Yourself.

We can’t control women. Women are going to live the lives they want, date the men they want, fuck the men they want, marry the men they want, cheat on the guys they want to cheat on, divorce the guys they want to divorce, and live completely normal and happy lives with guys – or live completely normal and happy lives without guys -- and do exactly as they please, whenever and however they want. And they should. Women have the right to do whatever they want with their lives, and to pursue whatever kind of happiness they want, however they want to go about it.

You can’t control a woman, nor should you try. All you can control is yourself. You can choose to become physically fit, you can choose to become professionally successful, you can choose to become socially apt and well-connected, you can choose to learn useful skills, you can choose to pursue interesting hobbies – you can choose to live a fulfilling life, all on your own, with or without women.

When a man posts something on asktrp, lamenting that “My wife/girlfriend never has sex with me” or “doesn’t respect me” or “flirts with other guys in front of me” or “cheats on me constantly” or “is a total bitch about everything all the time” – Nobody ever responds, “Rape her if she won’t have sex with you. Beat her until she respects you out of fear. Lock her up and keep her in the basement to keep her from the outside world. You should CONTROL HER!” Nope. Never that. In fact, the exact opposite is what’s expressed.

Let it go, they’re told. You can’t control her. Focus on yourself. Become fit, successful, social, skilled, and interesting. Raise your own value and don’t worry about her at all. Live your own fulfilling life independent of her. She’ll either come around, or she won’t. If she does, great. If she doesn’t, any number of other women will want to be with you now that you’ve focused on your own life. Don’t worry about controlling her. Just focus on you.

If the situation is especially egregious, the advice usually given is: “Next.” That’s right. Don’t control her at all. Don’t even try. Let her go. Let her live her own life. Cut her loose and live yours. Being jealous and controlling is “beta.”

Where The Red Pill and modern feminism and other detractors diverge, however, is that the others will tell you that self-improvement is cheating. It’s “manipulation.” If you become muscular and hot, you’re just manipulating women with your good looks. If you excel professionally, you’re manipulating women with your money and status. If you’re awesome socially, you’re just gaming women when you go out and wow them with your social network. And so on.

When you withdraw your attention from a woman that’s behaving undesirably and focus on yourself, that’s dubbed “manipulative.” When you improve yourself such that you’re attractive to your woman (and to other women), that’s manipulative. When you dump a woman who’s not measuring up to your standards, that’s manipulative. Essentially, by not attempting to control the situation (e.g., control the woman), that’s seen as an attempt to manipulate her. Because the very fact that you’re not being controlling will influence a woman to think or feel a certain way. The very fact that you’re working on your own life will influence a woman. And doing things that influence women to think or feel something is evil manipulation.

The solution is simple, of course. Live in your mother’s basement and only come out to go to work. Give all of your money to the nearest woman since you’re not paying rent. Repeat. Or you could just tell the rest of the world to go fuck themselves and live an awesome life, and let the few women lucky enough to be a part of that life enjoy the ride.

Post Information
Title Being controlling is for losers!
Author Archwinger
Upvotes 942
Comments 204
Date 17 June 2014 05:50 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/16778
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/28dxl5/being_controlling_is_for_losers/
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122 upvotesSturmgeist7815 years ago

Good thread Arch.

I let women I date do whatever they want. It's my choice if I choose to associate with them after what actions they've decided to take.

129 upvotesNoReallyItsTrue5 years ago

Exactly. I remember one of my favorite interactions with a girlfriend was one day she was in my apartment and she said "I can't this any more, we're breaking up" and she stormed out the front door. I decided I'd like to take a shower so I ran the water. Five minutes later I heard the bathroom door open and she came into the bathroom. "You're just going to let me walk out?" Yeah, why would I chase after a woman that isn't interested in me? You do whatever you want, my life is bad ass with or without you.

84 upvotes1independentmale5 years ago

This is a classic shit test. It's their way of manipulating and controlling you. They're hoping you'll chase them down, apologize even though you've done nothing wrong and "fall into line" (read: Put her back on her pedestal and worship her in spite of herself). They get really pissed when this doesn't work.

When a woman breaks up with me, all she gets is agreement. "Okay. Later."

When she comes back, all she gets is denial. "Nope. Not interested. Later."

If she's good in bed, I might take her back as a fuck buddy, but she'll never be relationship material again.

10 upvotesslurmfactory5 years ago

haha. this is something that Im "dealing" with. Was dating a girl I really liked, treated her well, reached out to her to talk and go out regularly, took her out etc., (she teased me for offering to buy her lunch "oh you want to pay more tha nme? is that so ill make out with you?" i was stunned.. and then one day she came to visit (she lived 90 minutes away) and we spent all day kissing and walking around the city, had plans that night. texted me "i dont feel the spark, im really sorry" bla bla. I responded "wow ok see ya" texted me later that night "i am so sorry. i will miss you." didnt respond to that. 5 weeks later she texts me, shes moved even further away but weve been texting back and forth (we both wait pretty long before texts like 4-8 days or so) and she texted me the other day shes coming back in town in july.

I told her all of the major strides Ive made since i last saw her (new job, quit smoking pot, my band is playing at badass venues in front of great crowds now, getting in shape, got my masters etc) and now she is interested in seeing me again? ive been dating around, seeing a regular FWB while hooking up with girls on tinder, no emotional attachments (i do have emotional attachment with this girl but its fading hard.) It went away completely til she contacted me again and then it sparked up again. So now wtf. I should do what you say and just say "not interested, later" but its hard for me to do that.

If i see her again I strongly feel like I will just become nauseous and be a dick to her.. not sure what i should do. im definitely not gonna stop kicking ass and dating other girls though. after the breakup is when i subscribed here and the stuff ive learned has instantly made me improve myself and regain my balls around women. (i had them for a while but hit some road bumps and lost confidence) now i feel their eyes on me again and this one girl seems to want me back. hmmmmm

24 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

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3 upvotesslurmfactory5 years ago

Yea its funny how much my mindset has changed recently. So many fine women out there and before i was ready to do anything for just this one

1 upvotespoindeckster5 years ago

Its been like four months, so sorry for being so late. You should confront her on the issue and tell her how it is. Tell her how you feel?

4 upvotesslurmfactory5 years ago

haha hey man. After she was texting me saying how she was going to be in town, I think I waited 2 weeks and said "why are you telling me youre coming on town like you want to see me again?" and she just responded ":)" so i deleted her number and stopped talking to her. Haven't heard from her since.

1 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

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6 upvotes1independentmale5 years ago

Simple. After a break up, when she comes back, you say, "Look, this was for the best. We weren't great for one another and should see other people." Then you add one of the following, depending on the situation and how you feel about her:

"We can still hang out if you want."

"I enjoy your company and would love to continue seeing you."

"If you want to date me within that context, I'm in."

"The best I can offer you is a friend with benefits."

"I'm not planning on being exclusive with anyone for awhile, so hit me up if you ever wanna fuck."

If she's sex positive and you've done a good job of giving her outstanding orgasms, that last one is fire. She may decline because she thinks she's supposed to, but give it a few days. She'll text you some night when she's lonely and horny.

Modern feminist culture tells you it's unacceptable to only want a woman for sex. Break away from that way of thinking. It's perfectly OK to say, "I just wanna fuck." Women like sex, too, and nothing gets their panties wetter than a high value man with a bad boy streak who isn't afraid of offending her sensibilities. Put her on a pedestal and treat her like a porcelain doll and she'll behave that way. Let your inner animal out and she's likely to do the same.

21 upvotesiluminatiNYC5 years ago

It always amazes me that women expect men to beg for pussy. They are so rarely told no that when it does happen, it's like the collapse of the universe.

18 upvotesOffensive_Brute5 years ago

You manipulative son of a bitch! How dare you hold them accountable for their behavior!? That's against the roolz.

1 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

Should I tell them right away, explicitly that they can do whatever they want or just observe what they do and let them think whatever they want about how I consider them?

1 upvotespoindeckster5 years ago

Yno this shit gives me /r/justiceporn feelings

286 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

Stupendous synopsis of the redpill philosophy. What really irritates many feminists is not that they perceive this behavior to be an attempt at controlling women...rather, they see it as an attempt to undermine their CONTROL over men. By not bending over backwards and treating women like queens, you are actually being "manipulative" because that causes them to view you as an independent and uncontrollable male...this both irks and attracts them.

56 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

That and a general misunderstanding of that the Red Pill is about because feminists will tend to have a "us vs. them" mentality - so if they see a male movement, they immediately think Patriarchy! and assume that if we're not with them, then we must be against them. We are neither.

We strive to be pro-male without being counter-female, but this apparent contradiction seems to be a hard concept to grasp for some women (and some newcoming redpillers too, for that matter).

38 upvotesstreetsorcerer5 years ago

And it gets even better. We're not a movement at all.

There is no RedPill HQ, we don't have an agenda, we're not passing laws, we're not out protesting, there are no banners or signs, no one will ever meet a "RedPiller" in real life. This isn't Men's Rights.

They can't even stand the idea that we've carved out this small corner of the internet to discuss amongst ourselves.

36 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

We're actually one of the most pro-TRUEfeminist groups around.

Not the fighting for rights of the first age, or the continued social revolutions of the second, nor even the continuous bitching of the third age, but true feminists nonetheless.

How can I say that? Because we recognize that they have a choice. That they are completely independent people capable of making their own decisions. That they can, and will, do what they want, and we are OK with that.

What do we do? We strive to make ourselves the best choice.

TRP is marketing. its capitalism. Its presenting the best product(You because you've improved yourself enough to qualify) with the best marketing(The Large Social Network you constructed) to the widest audience(Females).

Can you control what choice they make? Of course not. All you can do is make yourself the most attractive option, because make no mistake, options are the thing they have the most of.

0 upvotesSummertime_Dimes5 years ago

I do not disagree with this at all, brah. Astute observation. TRP gives women agency. TRP teaches us to treat women the same as men, no better no worse. TRP teaches us to have self-respect, and respect for those around us who command it, who earn it. That is true equality, right?

Most of all TRP teaches us that your life is your own. Live it how you see fit. But own your choices and hold others accountable for theirs. The mentality of sit back and observe a woman's behavior before deciding if you want to permit her into your life is goddamn genius in its simplicity. For a big part of my young life I thought it was only women that got to decide yes or no on a relationship, and if you were lucky you landed one that checked the yes box. Obviously, I now understand that is not the case. This shift in the relationship paradigm is upsetting for some poeple and they can be pretty vocal about it. Respect.

34 upvotesIllimitableMan5 years ago

I hate feminism because it creates distrust between the genders and serves as a form of gender apartheid, the laws it enacts and attitudes it provokes are wholly misandrist too. It is rare to meet a balanced feminist (like Christina Hoff Summers) they tend to be fucking lunatics, like that red haired bitch with the thick specs screaming at MRAs on youtube. Feminism has become about female superiority, not gender equality, and I do not believe either thing works. Women should be treated fairly but they're not cut out for leadership, men should lead but women should get a fair say (captain/first mate dynamic.)

Most people who call themselves feminists nowadays are man haters or effeminate men who have been taught to see masculinity as this one-dimensional type of primitive neanderthal violence and thus have let the pendulum swing entirely the other way in their head. Effeminate men take on female mannerisms and identify with the feminine, rather than being true to their Y chromosome, they're effectively men brainwashed to act like women. Feminism is a sick movement that has to perpetuate a victim narrative in order to validate its own existence, feminism has become so twisted and corrupt it has to make shit up in order to keep the pay cheques coming in (broadening the definition of rape and focusing on an issue that affects the tiniest proportion of women as if it's actually an everyday occurrence seems to have been their most major attempt at trying to remain relevant.)

My favourite feminists are post feminists, they're the only feminists who realise feminism is fucking irrelevant in 2014. Continued feminism when it is no longer necessary is merely a cartel/institutionalised gynocracy which ensures the feminine viewpoint is the dominant social narrative whilst the masculine condition and viewpoint is vilified at worst, whilst ignored and deemed irrelevant at best (a far cry from anything posing as equality or egalitarianism.)

Being a woman and being a feminist aren't the same thing, I like some women and I hate most feminists. Most people here do not like feminists and as much as people say "in a strange kind of way we're pro-feminist" I'd say we're not pro-feminist at all, we're "pro-do-what-the-fuck-you-want" but we're not supporting the women's studies majors who continue to spit vitriol and assert their place as the #1 victim narrative in the victim olympics. Something that makes up so much imaginary oppression whilst doing a bait and switch to the make the largest most privileged class of human beings in human history will receive my contempt at worst, and my utter indifference at best. Fuck feminism, it is abhorrent. Looks great on paper, in practice it destabilises nations.

8 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

Continued feminism when it is no longer necessary is merely a cartel/institutionalised gynocracy which ensures the feminine viewpoint is the dominant social narrative...

Fantastic write-up. So many people on this subreddit have an awe-inspiring way with words. It gives me great hope for the future.

1 upvotesAgathaRing5 years ago

Isn't hating Feminism (or anything) the opposite of red pill, and contradictory to the OP?

Who cares what idiotic views some women have? Just laugh it off and move on.

I'm on the same page as you in terms of Feminism not being good for society, and most feminists holding absolutely ridiculous world views. I agree with most of what you're saying, but putting any sort of mental effort in hating or opposing them solves nothing because you'll always be viewed as a rape apologist, and anti-woman.

Saying women shouldn't be leaders, whether true or not, is attempting to put restrictions on women's lives.

You can’t control a woman, nor should you try. All you can control is yourself.

So while you may not be interested in a woman who attempts to be a leader, whether in a spousal relationship or work environment, saying that they shouldn't be leaders is contradicting the message in the OP.

You should only care about yourself. If women want to be leaders, fine, but they can't expect most men to want that. If you have options because of the life you've built for yourself, you shouldn't care whether some women want to take on masculine roles, because you don't want them anyway.

5 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

I think it's because part of the Red Pill philosophy is to understand that a majority of our institutions - governments, education, private sectors - use feminine manipulation tactics to control populations/customers, as well as reduce the power of men (the only gender capable of retaliating against such forces).

By understanding that feminism is at the root of this manipulation, it is important we not only disagree with some of these tactics, but learn to overcome them in order to maximize our potential as human beings.

-4 upvotesgokurakumaru5 years ago

I was with you until "women aren't cut out for leadership." That statement is just baseless. Neither gender is a hive mind.

17 upvotesIllimitableMan5 years ago

That statement is just baseless.

No it isn't. Less testosterone means they are more indecisive and risk-fearing, their hormonal balance also makes them emotionally erratic leading to poor judgements and emotional erraticism. These are bad qualities for a leader. A good leader is reasonable, fair (just) and well-grounded, these are not qualities that can be found with abundance in women, outliers aside.

Shit if women made good leaders half of these kids growing up to single mother head of households wouldn't be so fucked up. You're free to think what you like, I respect your right to disagree, but without a compelling counter argument then I don't see us agreeing (being pedantic by picking apart my argument rather than having a position based in your own reasoning doesn't constitute a compelling counter-argument, for the record.)

1 upvotesFree_skier5 years ago

And people says that men are dogs. That testosterone means more aggressiveness, decisions taken on the fly and traders with crazy risk appetite. Nice picture of a leader.

A good leader is professional not emotional. It has nothing to do with your sex.

Currently, I prefer to work with men. But my point of view is that currently women don't learn to think rationally. Dating is a real school of management for men. You really learn how to control yourself. As long as women are given plenty on a platter for free, they will expect the same at work.

9 upvotesIDefyAxioms5 years ago

It's been stated ad nauseum in the past and is one of the simplest bases that we work off of: we generalize for the sake of simplicity and general correctness.

Of course there are some women that are meant to be leaders, and sadly even more men in today's western world that aren't, but the majority of both genders rests in the positions that we've generalized.

-1 upvotesgokurakumaru5 years ago

I dispute that this is "generally correct" because it's not backed up by anything remotely scientific. Generalization is just a nice word for stereotyping, and that's a pretty bad foundation to base an argument on.

1 upvotesIllimitableMan5 years ago

Science can't prove all its own theories. Occams razor.

2 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

They generally miss the forrest for the single, angry trees.

2 upvotesDoesNotMatterAnymore5 years ago

And let's just be honest, that "single, angry tree" is they own projection, it's not even fuckin there. But still good enough to cloud everything else.

121 upvotesdoladolabillyall5 years ago

rather, they see it as an attempt to undermine their CONTROL over men.

As much as reddit calls this place a shit-hole, it sure has a lot of really insightful and intelligent analysis. Funny how something so controversial turns out to be pretty good.

19 upvoteskamikaze_shot5 years ago

I just started reading TRP after reading an article which asked reddit to take down this subreddit. After reading the article, I thought "there is no way that the majority of people in the subreddit talk like that!".

I was wrong.


The comments are very crude and don't sugar coat it, however, it is exactly what you said. Very insightful, controversial for sure, but also life changing. It has been less than a week, but dammit my new thoughts and attitude influenced by this subreddit has definitely improved my life.

I still disagree with some stuff, but for the most part I am thankful I found it.

Thanks TRP community!

10 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

It is important to note that you don't have to agree with everything that's posted here in order to be part of the community. A big part of TRP is being your own man, and part of that is not taking anything at face value. Sometimes you'll read things that men going through the "bitter" stage of the red pill write on here, and some of it is crude and vitriolic, some completely unhelpful (although usually that's removed by our mods), but the point I'm making is that everything written here is contestable.

We're here to understand our current position, not preach gospel; that's why this is a communal effort - there's no way any of us guys could figure all of this out on our own.

10 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

We help those who want to help themselves.

We help those who seek truth over comfort.

It is better to live life in utter fear and desperation than to live a lie. (This last one I stole from GTA5)

3 upvotes87GNX5 years ago

GTA is pretty fucking red pill.

3 upvotesdoladolabillyall5 years ago

The comments are very crude and don't sugar coat it, however, it is exactly what you said. Very insightful, controversial for sure, but also life changing. It has been less than a week, but dammit my new thoughts and attitude influenced by this subreddit has definitely improved my life.

Good. I had a realization shortly before TRP was a sub. It was that the planet I am really on is a harsh world. It's not the planet that I was told I was on (via TV, friendly pro-status quo people who want to refrain from negative thinking). Once I realized what planet I was on, I proceeded to do what I want instead of trying to live in this fairytale world that doesn't exist.

1 upvotesgfk5 years ago

What article was worried that they were losing control over men and now they have to get off their lazy ass and put work into their own happiness?

37 upvotesMymobileacoconut5 years ago

Thanks to confirmation bias, the ugliness of truth (+ the temptation of telling it), and the anger stage of red pill, we all get pinned as psychopaths.

But don't fret... the vast majority of people out there walk around seeking to be understood. "Please understand me. Feel my struggle. Validate me!" Like children walking around with their umbilical cords in their hand, hoping to find something to plug in to. Here at redpill we seek to understand, we grow stronger from listening, not projecting. And share knowledge in a mastermind that will further our ideas.

14 upvotesderroboter5 years ago

children with umbilical cord in their hand walking around to plug themselves into something is quite a graphic construct btw. cheers

14 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

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8 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

If every guy knew about /r/theredpill, wouldn't there just be the same 80/20 dynamic at play with the standard for what is 'creepy' rising to compensate?

I think no matter what women are going to completely ignore the bottom 80% of men until they no long can (top 20% stops giving them attention/validation); I think this would be the same even if all men were 'alphas', because then the constituting traits that make an 'alpha' would grow more difficult to obtain to compensate.

Plus, you have to keep in mind that places like /r/creepypms are more meant for bragging than anything else. They disguise it as something else, but the whole subreddit is women trying to yell "LOOK HOW MANY BETA MEN WANT ME, TOO BAD I'M TOO GOOD FOR THEM" over each other.

5 upvotesSummertime_Dimes5 years ago

I understand your point, brah. But if everyone internalized some of the truths here, dudes that did get rejected or called names or whatever wouldn't give a shit. Society would be turned on its head, gyms would be booming fucking business and the video game market would collapse. Women may still find ways to shame whoever they want, but the effect would be minimal because TRP dudes are immune to that bullshit. TRP says that your true self-worth can only come from within.

2 upvotestheozoph5 years ago

There will always be weak men being betas. The dedication needed to be strong isn't found in everyone.

TRP is elitist in the best sense of the word, it says : "Here's the program, it's a tough one. Can you follow it, bitch?"

It's up to each of us to answer that question.

3 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

The feminist goal is to censor all discussion except their own on the sexes and pretend that differences don't exist. They are divisive and inflammatory. They want the individual to be emotionally separated from the mainstream group. This emotional divide isolates them from society, encouraging them to reject other normal conventions. Then the individual is alone and feeds their hate and frustration off of the constant propaganda. And once the solution to all this hatred is provided by the feminists the individual welcomes it with open arms. That way the feminists create a symbiotic relationship with their followers and propagate themselves.

34 upvotesvandaalen5 years ago

The problem is that many guys here do not even understand this.

They tend to think of TRP of being some magical mumbo jumbo to magically make other people - and women in particular - do what they want them to do. They are still caught in their BP-nice-guy mindest where it is possible to do certain things to "trick" everybody into changing their personality and behave the way they want them to.

They still deny the fact that there is no way (other than violence - physical or psychological) to own somebody's body or mind.

Women will not draw their jaws and faint in aww just because you choose to behave like a bratty douchebag and a controlling asshole. A Jenna Jamenson will also not magically become a Virgin Mary. Sluts are gonna slut, bitches are gonna bitch and hamsters are gonna ham.

You might always be able to make them suppress their true personality for a certain period of time but ultimately their true ego will want to break free.

So in the end it comes down to yourself. Firstly you need a set of rules you apply to people sourrounding you. What do you expect them to behave like? What is a no go? What are you willing to tolerate? What is inacceptable to you?

And then you need to live by this rules! This involves being able to drop people which violated these rules. Only if you are always righteous in your actions and are willing to take losses will you be percieved as being confident and strong. You need to be able to communicate this in a clear way.

So instead of trying to control people by constantly telling them what to do and what not to do they should know what they are expected to behave like upfront if they want to be with you and that you are perfectly able to terminate them from your life if they fail to do so.

This is nothing that you constanly communicate. Nobody is interested in your current bitching about what they should do or shouldn't do. Nobody.

So you need to become a person who is so valuable to people that they will gladly like to follow you. Being controlling is a trait nobody likes by the way. People will stick to you although you are controlling not because you are controlling. And this only if you your value is high enough to them.

And never underestimate people. You might think you are kind of superior just because you've read some articles, watched some videos and finally accepted the truth.

Just because they are in trance doesn't mean they are dumb and are not able to see right through your insecurities.This race is old enough so that we all have a gut feeling or at least a subconciousness. Just because people don't know why they think you are a whimp doesn't mean that they don't.

To be righteous in believeing for yourself that you deserve to be leader you have to firstly start bettering and improving yourself so you become the person you for yourself think would be the idela leader that you will like to follow. Just telling everybody that you are won't get you anywhere.

Edit: You also need to accept that people are different. We've all got our BIOS running, but the operating system and the software is slightly different in everybody. Learn to embrace these differences and don't try to reboot the machines and hack into superuser mode. This is what makes life interesting and exciting. Trying to change it will only end in frustration again as being the nice guy did.

Start observing and listening to other people and combine it with what you've learned about our true nature so far and you will see the connections pretty quick and clear.

And instead of thinking: "He/She did do this. What an asshole!" start asking "I'm curious. Why would he/she do this?". This will get you much further than mocking and getting angry at people for being people.

28 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

What's fascinating is that when women behave like this, it is just them empowering themselves and not manipulation...if a man dares to step outside of his subjugation, then he is all the sudden some kind of evil monster...why? Because he tipped the balance of power back in his favor.

4 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

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57 upvotesss4james_5 years ago

This is a great post and should clear up some misunderstandings about what TRP is...

I simply changed my behavior and my SO just settled nicely into being second in command (we were arguing before TRP), things just kind of clicked when I let go and stopped giving a fuck about what she does.

Ultimatly, it's for women's benefit, we're becoming the type of men that women desire, not the type that women settle for.

Relevant Elliot Hulse video:


26 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

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15 upvotesss4james_5 years ago

Oh trust me, I know. TRP comes up and it's almost always the opposite of what TRP actually espouses...

7 upvotesJbonn5 years ago

100% from what I've seen also.

Every time I see TRP references outside of the redpill community itself I face-palm hard at how misguided some people can be.

4 upvotesinsane_psycho5 years ago

You can only lead a horse to water...

6 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

More than half of the criticism I read is describing TRP as "nice guys who think they are entitled to sex" and how much they hate those guys and would never consider to date them.

No. Shit. Actually I hate those nice guys more than you do girl, way more than you do.

4 upvotesgekkozorz5 years ago

I don't think anyone laughs at Friendzoned Nice Guys more than TRP.

1 upvotesDrDalenQuaice5 years ago

We need another clarification post like this around Alpha/Beta. The common understanding across Reddit is that TRP is pro alpha-only, and blindly anti-beta.

-1 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

I'm outside TRP and read posts - out of curiosity, and because I like to have my views challenged.

I really liked the OP. What I don't like about TRP is that it argues that all women are the same. I've dated and had long-term relationships for a good 10 years nonstop before I met and married the love of my life - a woman who is my best friend, my equal, and about to get her Doctor's of Dental Surgery (I got my MBA and work in management).

Every person is different. There is no such thing as "all women". Some women will go for TRP guys, but I would argue that these girls have a lot of issues with self-respect, goals in life, and so on. Those are girls who respond well to TRP-guys, thus re-affirming TRP. All the women who laugh off TRP and walk away immediately are quickly dismissed. This is, truly, willful ignorance.

I feel like TRP is very, very bitter. It feels like it's the whole "friendzone" theory amplified by a factor of 10. Just a bunch of bitter, butt-hurt guys who, after all that hurt and rejection, are going for the bottom of the barrel when it comes to females. This is also why TRP will never lead to happy relationships - you're constantly going for the craziest people out there, not for stable, happy humans.

I still read some of the posts here though, for funsies and out of interest.

The OP, however, is better than the usual "I kept rejecting a girl who has confidence, maturity, and relationship issues, and she kept coming back, TRP works!" stuff that is posted here. I just think OP should replace "women" with "people" in the OP.

6 upvoteselduckbell5 years ago

I'm outside TRP and read posts - out of curiosity, and because I like to have my views challenged.

Add /r/redpillwomen to your reading list. You'll find your examples of "happy relationships."

5 upvotesthe_Milkweed5 years ago

This is amazing. This is what I think of when I take the information I have gathered from this sub. THIS is the whole fucking idea.

Thank you for introducing me to this man.

2 upvoteschill_geddy5 years ago

That was a great video can't belive I missed that one

27 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

This should be required reading for ALL red pill subscribers and visitors.

8 upvotesJohnny_Shades5 years ago

We need a hall of fame for top red pill posts. Side bars posts are great to read but usually take a while. These are short, great excerpts of redpill knowledge/teaching.

14 upvotesInvalidity5 years ago

It's the same tactic as calling someone out on trust issues or insecurity. Having a preference is not the same as telling someone not to do something. If you tell a girl that you don't want to see her going clubbing with her girlfriends and that you'll leave her if you do, is having conviction about your values. She is free to make the choice, but likewise, you can make your own choice should she make that decision.

Now if you told someone that they cannot do something... that is the essence of being controlling.

16 upvotesArchwinger [OP]5 years ago

I would go so far to say that if you ultimatum a woman with:

"If you do undesirable action X, I will do undesirable action Y," you're being a controlling jackass.

But if you live your life in a manner that your woman respects the hell out of you and would never consider even asking to do X for fear of fucking things up with such an awesome man, that's not so evil, is it?

16 upvotesNoReallyItsTrue5 years ago

Undesirable action Y is, in this case, removing her from your life. Saying "if you cheat on me, I will choose to end our relationship" is not being controlling- you have the freedom to end your relationship whenever you want, for whatever reason you want. If you know that you value her not doing action X more than the relationship, then go ahead and let her know that. Better she be aware of where you draw the line than expect her to adhere to what you deem acceptable without discussion.

18 upvotesArchwinger [OP]5 years ago

If you have to tell a woman not to disrespect you, and ensure her continued respect via a threatened action, then she doesn't actually respect you.

If a woman, on her own, chooses not to do anything awry for fear of screwing things up with you, that's respect. If a woman, honest to goodness, doesn't know any better and thinks that overly disrespectful behaviors are just fine because you never told her otherwise, she wasn't relationship material to begin with and you fucked up by getting involved.

10 upvotesNoReallyItsTrue5 years ago

The example given was "I don't want you going to clubs with your girlfriends." That is not overly disrespectful behaviors. Granted, I wouldn't tell any woman not to cheat on me. lol of course. But if the club thing really meant that much to me, that conversation would be warranted.

15 upvotesArchwinger [OP]5 years ago

If a woman doesn't know that a club is a meat market where women go to have drinks, flirt, and get picked up by guys, and that going clubbing without you present is questionable behavior, what are you doing in a relationship with her?

If a woman respects you, she's not going to want to go out to the club with her girlfriends, wearing her tight black dress and heels, all made up, and "just talk" with various guys and have a few drinks while pretending she doesn't know their true intentions. Women who respect their men don't go fishing to see what's out there.

5 upvotesInvalidity5 years ago

There is no guarantee that she won't test you simply because you are very high value in her eyes. What if it does get to the point where she asks you if it will be acceptable for her to go clubbing?

1 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

Isn't it unrealistic expectations? I never met a single woman who was willing to give up the "fun" because she had a boyfriend, whether they were my girlfriends or my friends' girlfriends.

I thought one should make a girl like that a plate immediately.

And what about hypergamy? Isn't she supposed to always seek out better men? So one should expect the girl to go against her hypergamy?

3 upvotesSummertime_Dimes5 years ago

I appreciate your sentiment, but respectfully disagree. People have different cultural norms, and different acts are viewed differently across cultures. You can't expect every woman you meet to share your views or understand what is and what is not acceptible behavior in your view. I think open direct dialogue which expresses your view that X is not acceptible behavior is a good thing. Women don't read minds either, brah.

That said, some things are obviously disrespectful and are consistently viewed as such. Things that are black and white can be treated as black and white. Things that are gray should be met with discussion and explanation. If, after making it clear that X is disrespectful in your view, X continues, then hit that NEXT button. IMHO. I would appreciate your view and reasoning if you disagree. Clearly you are intelligent and insightful, and I might be able to learn something. Respect.

Edit: kept reading and saw that you basically said the same thing I did lower in the thread. Please disregard, brah. Good post.

1 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

Sums up my last relationship. Thanks.

5 upvotesnourathrowway5 years ago

That IS a threat though. Better to just let her know you dont like it (if you havent already made it clear) and let her choose whether to do it anyway. Dont get hung up or argue about it, just keep doing your thing. Relationships are full of these tradeoffs. Openly threatening to next her is being controlling. Next or plate her if she keeps doing things you dislike or that undermine the relationship.

5 upvotesInvalidity5 years ago

I don't disagree with you but I'd have to add that in my personal experiences in my own past relationships and from observations of other peoples relationships, females will generally push the boundaries of a relationship as far as possible not just as a test but to see how much they can act freely and get away with.

I've seen cases where the girl is told by her boyfriend that he doesn't like to see her doing X but the girl goes ahead and does X anyway. The guy usually ends up voicing his disapproval, but does nothing to follow up on it. If anything, I feel like his thought on the matter meant nothing because the seriousness was only implied and not explicitly expressed. This is what a dealbreaker is essentially.

8 upvotesInvalidity5 years ago

I agree with you to some extent. Most girls would have in their mind an idea of what likely wouldn't be acceptable to a high-value male, but in modern times, some of those things you wouldn't want your partner to do are some of the norms of today.

7 upvotes1independentmale5 years ago

I would go so far to say that if you ultimatum a woman with:

"If you do undesirable action X, I will do undesirable action Y," you're being a controlling jackass.

Absolutely. I completely agree. I don't put up with that shit and I won't dish it out.

If a man is so insecure that he can't handle his girlfriend going out with her friends, he doesn't deserve a relationship. He needs to grow the fuck up. "But there are men there who want to fuck her!" So what. There are men at the grocery store who want to fuck her, too. Quit mate guarding, either she's the type of woman who will cheat on you, or she isn't. Keeping her home all the time under threat of breaking up with her isn't going to stop her from cheating if she's the cheating type. She'll find a way. If she isn't the cheating type, though, this behavior is likely to turn her into one. At the very least, she will resent you for not trusting her and the relationship will eventually fall apart anyway. There's no winning when you play this game.

2 upvotesSummertime_Dimes5 years ago

Being nonchalant about a woman (in whom you are emotionally invested) spending time with single friends in a place where she is certain to be hit on and plied with free drinks requires some serious interal game and some fucking zen. It was one of the hardest things for me to come to grips with, and mentally I backslide constantly with this. That is where frame comes in. Calm, chill, detached exterior regardless of what crazy paranoid shit is happening in the old brain pan.

I just repeat to myself that if a woman steps out, I am better off without her. I trust that I am sufficiently badass to keep her loyal. I also keep an eye out for tickle behavior and make sure the next button is kept handy. Every year there are millions of newly minted 22 year olds and I can just go grab one of them if Ms. Right-now fucks up.

2 upvotes1independentmale5 years ago

That is where frame comes in.


Serious internal game and fucking zen isn't necessarily required, but it should be the crowning achievement we strive for. Until a person gets there, not giving a fuck is easier and works like a charm. Abundance mentality helps everything. Not letting yourself get emotionally invested in the first place is fantastic.

This all keeps the woman on her toes, too. When you're helplessly in love, she knows she has you and treats you accordingly. If you know there are plenty of fish in the sea and you're the shit and can find someone younger and hotter whenever you damn well please, you can approach love and relationships with intention and not let them consume you. As a result you always have the upper hand.

My girl gets hit on regularly. I just shrug it off. I don't blame other men for wanting to fuck her, she's hot. But I'm the one who actually gets to fuck her, not them, so I don't have to let that bother me. If anything, I find it amusing. She shuts them down quick and doesn't reciprocate.

I also get hit on frequently enough that I know I'm a catch and could bounce to someone new if my relationship goes south. That makes it a lot easier to not worry about the one I have. It didn't always used to be this way. I was shocked at the difference just a few minor changes made in my life. A little exercise, some better clothes, ditched the glasses and got LASIK, found a better hairstylist. Little things over time = improved confidence = "Holy shit that hottie is hitting on me?!" = Abundance mentality = No fear of what happens to me if it doesn't work out with my woman.

3 upvotesSummertime_Dimes5 years ago

I've said it once, and I will say it again. This fucking sub is so goddamn awesome. Largely because of cats like yourself that spread the good word. Some dude bought my chick a drink at the bar, along wtih one for himself. She picked them both up and delivered the second to me at our table. He got a wink from me and nothing from her. That type of shit used to be stuff I only dreamed about...

Because of what I learned here, I have come to expect nothing less for mysefl. Respect, brah.

4 upvotesjobs33ker5 years ago

Ultimatums are not putting you in a position of strength but rather weakness ; you are not "showing you have convictions" you are showing you have no.options. its demonstrating you're scarcity mentality...if you are in a situation where you are offering ultimatums it shows your lack of value and your outcome dependency.

3 upvotesInvalidity5 years ago

On the contrary, someone who is not afraid to walk away is the one who has the options.

If your partner asks you if it is okay to go clubbing and vehemently insists upon it, what would you do? You offer a lot of opinions but no plan of action.

6 upvotesjobs33ker5 years ago

I'll let Rollo Tomasi do the talking for me here:

Remember, a woman’s default is to communicate covertly. When you are indifferent to her proposition of a GNO it sends the message that you are confident enough in your own ability to replace her should she cross that line. Let her imagination work for you. Women love to convince themselves, “he trusts me implicitly” while they secretly sift through your text messages, but the covert message is really a veiled threat and exemplifies your self-confidence. Bear in mind it’s what she feels in this communication. If you leave her with the feeling that you’re clingy, possessive, sulky and worried, the impression she has is that you’re weak and are the kind of guy that women settle for, not compete for. Essentially you make her the PRIZE by voicing your insecurities. Alphas don’t worry about their plates on GNOs, in fact women enraptured by Alphas don’t see the appeal of GNOs.

Here's the link, you need to read this now..


6 upvotesjobs33ker5 years ago

I will add:

On the contrary, someone who is not afraid to walk away is the one who has the options.

That's correct, and presenting a woman with an ultimatum demonstrates nothing but your fear of walking away, not willingness. Willingness is not presenting someone with an option and Hoping they choose one specifically, which is what an ultimatum really is.

4 upvotesInvalidity5 years ago

I stand corrected, thank you for that explanation.

1 upvotesjobs33ker5 years ago

Here is another link:


7 upvotesInvalidity5 years ago

The issue I have with both the GNO and ultimatum articles is that even if you can live with a mentality of not giving a damn about what a girl does, how do you still benefit from being in a relationship with a girl at that point?

I live in a different time than my parents and their parents. Women are far more entitled nowadays and have little to no agency. They will do as they please, and they will be supported for doing so. Yes, I will control my life as I choose, but if I am enabling my partner to do so under the optimistic idea that if I am confident in myself she will respect the relationship, I am asking to be punished for it.

I don't believe it is so far-fetched to tell somebody what you value and to stand up for those values. If you see an inherent issue with a girl doing something you don't like, but you don't voice that issue, you're basically bullshitting them. It's the equivalent of what women do when they tell you it's fine but then give you shit for it later.

If I establish lines when needed and she crosses them, I am then free to leave and she can go about her business. No harm, no foul.

1 upvoteslolyzor5 years ago

hmm I did that couple of times, ultimatum then break off, and certainly I did not fear of her waking away, ultimatums are good if you are not sure should you keep going or stop dating someone, its good to test waters, If she lost the respect for me then the ultimatum test will tell me for sure is he has lost it or not, and it worked in my favour multiple times...

11 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

I think the discussion of being "controlling" or not is just a straw man that is meant to take us off base, discussing it and how we aren't controlling is in my mind akin to the feminist nut cases that want people to stop using the word bossy.

I am controlling and I'm keeping my frame. I want control over my life, my body, my freedom of choice, I don't want to be limited by mass societies whims, hubris or hedonism nor it's demands of obeisance.

I would force one thing on all man kind so that I might live a better life and also my children: Self Awareness. In this I am outwardly controlling but if one decides upon his role in life after thorough introspection I will respect any decision that individual makes but I refuse to respect the life choices of people that follow the flow of a culture and society that inherently disregards mankind's capacity to be civilized.

If this is some sin in the eyes of the world to day then so be it but I hold by this conviction; If man wont think before he acts then he is not man but animal. In this I am demanding, critical, unforgiving and controlling. I expect more of us.

2 upvotessithman255 years ago

Great point man. Willful ignorance is something that makes my skin crawl. You haven't read Atlas Shrugged by chance have you?

1 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

Never have. It's on my list though.

1 upvotessithman255 years ago

I would force one thing on all man kind so that I might live a better life and also my children: Self Awareness. In this I am outwardly controlling but if one decides upon his role in life after thorough introspection I will respect any decision that individual makes but I refuse to respect the life choices of people that follow the flow of a culture and society that inherently disregards mankind's capacity to be civilized.

If this is some sin in the eyes of the world to day then so be it but I hold by this conviction; If man wont think before he acts then he is not man but animal. In this I am demanding, critical, unforgiving and controlling. I expect more of us.

all of that is the main theme of atlas shrugged. Rand was super adamant about the power of man using his mind. She deemed it vitally important for humans to accept reality for humanity to thrive. It's a great albeit long read.

27 upvotessupersonic6205 years ago

On the contrary, when I was bluepill, all I did was try to control women by being nice, being attentive, a good friend. That was the real "manipulation". I would put their needs above mine, in hopes of getting affection from them. Now, I do the exact opposite. Don't try to control them at all. Aloofness and focused on what I want to do. So much more fulfilling and fun!

15 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

I disagree, those actions shouldn't be defined as you 'controlling' her. Instead it's her (and the feminine imperative) controlling you.

As OP pointed out, TRP breaks women's control of men. It's pure solipsism and projection when a woman says that it's controlling for us to be independent of them.

4 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

Even if pedestaling is in large part being controlled, it's still a miserable attempt by the male to control the situation. He just doesn't know that it doesn't work. The fault of the male in allowing this situation to develop is more egregious in my opinion than the female's, she only responded to a low value display.

1 upvotesairyeezy915 years ago

Completely unrelated but I love your username.

3 upvoteseccentricrealist5 years ago

I don't think women control you, but rather they exploit your affection. And quite frankly, wouldn't you either?

3 upvotesmithridates15 years ago

Yes...they exploit your affection. This describes a situation I am in now perfectly. I don't think I've ever heard it put that well, but it is the equivalent of a controlling man. Except hers is built around the victim card..

7 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

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3 upvotesLeviGoldberg5 years ago

being nice and reasonably expecting that people would be nice in return

Ay and therein lies the rub. Being nice is showing kindness without expecting anything in return. Being "nice" with the goal of receiving affection is like a child playing at relationships. Put in one niceness token, receive one affection token. That isn't how it works.

1 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

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1 upvotesLeviGoldberg5 years ago

If you're acting a certain way to get something out of another person and not because you're choosing to of your own accord, that isn't kindness. It's manipulation.

9 upvotesDrogoe5 years ago

Very good post. The only additional point I'd make is that there are occasions where putting your foot down is appropriate, such as if she's disrespecting you (by say texting her exes) and trying subconsciously to see how much she can get away with. Or if she's being a negative little brat. Especially as you get further into an exclusive relationship, giving a girl firm boundaries-- accept them or fuck off-- is important

15 upvotesArchwinger [OP]5 years ago

The only additional point I'd make is that there are occasions where putting your foot down is appropriate

I'm of the opinion that if a woman respects you -- truly respects you -- and admires you, and prioritizes you being in her life, then she finds satisfying and pleasing you and being the woman you want her to be fulfilling. She will, on her own and out of respect for you, not do anything that would risk fucking up her relationship with you.

If you have to tell her not to be disrespectful, then she doesn't respect you. If she really, really doesn't know any better, then what the fuck are you doing in a relationship with her? That's the whole point of this post, actually -- "What do you mean trading suggestive text messages with my ex-boyfriend is wrong? It's not like I'm still fucking him. You can't tell me who to talk to! God, you're so controlling!"

Don't control her, control you.

5 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

She will, on her own and out of respect for you, not do anything that would risk fucking up her relationship with you.

Your argument leaves open the possibility that if a woman is disrespectful then it's your fault. That I simply don't agree with.

People fuck up. She will eventually do what comes naturally. Whether you allow it to happen without confrontation is what matters.

8 upvotesArchwinger [OP]5 years ago

People fuck up. She will eventually do what comes naturally. Whether you allow it to happen without confrontation is what matters.

"I got drunk and fucked some guy at a bar last night because you never told me not to!"


"But this isn't my fault! You never said not to go out to bars with my girlfriends, get really drunk, and flirt with other guys, with no overt or deliberate intentions to cheat! It just happened! If you'd set boundaries with me, I'd never have done it!"


"You're an asshole!"


If the woman doesn't fucking know better, it's not your fault for never setting boundaries, but it's definitely your fault for getting into a relationship with an idiot.

2 upvotesBible_Black5 years ago

I in equal measures agree and disagree. Firstly, ain't no bitch in this life that is worth the trouble that she will bring to you. Next those cunts all day long the moment they start treating you like a bitch. When unsure whether you really want to ditch a bitch, ask yourself: what does she do for me? compare it with, what do i do for her? and contrast with; how much less difficult would it be to be single again? how many more freedoms will I gain?

However, I agree with the previous guy too. Ain't no bitch that won't test you to failure. Sometimes that means you never find out about it, if she reckons you oblivious. You might have a dime, but at some point she's going to do something. If you're a guy looking to have kids, you're gonna have to learn how to correct her shitty behaviours, because she will have them. But... it's all in good practice, because your kids will test you with shitty behaviours too and you'll be in good shape to deal with them after having dealt with the adult version.

1 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

I'm with you right up to the point where you blame a person for being unable to know how a significant other will behave in all circumstances. There are many clues (often discussed here). But each party has free agency and the future is unknown. One should learn from past experiences, but the future is full of unknowns..and that's the fun. One can't/shouldn't berate themselves for being fallible.

1 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

I found that if you need to tell your women how to behave, it's already over.

They know exactly HOW.

If they don't, it's that they are not willing to put in the efforts for you. They don't want to make efforts to keep you around.

So why in the world would you still hang around?

13 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

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60 upvotesArchwinger [OP]5 years ago

If you have to "mate guard" your woman, she's not your woman.

A woman who truly respects you will refrain from doing anything that risks losing you, all on her own, without you having to police her behavior.

Remember, every single woman in your life is replaceable. Quickly and easily. Any woman you're dating and/or fucking should know that, inherently, without you saying a word about it, just by how you live and how you conduct yourself. She knows the score, she knows you have options, and she knows you'll replace her in a heartbeat if she fucks things up, and you don't have to say a word about it.

If you're not in that exact situation, then you have some work to do on yourself, but that's where you should be working -- on yourself, not on her, and not on your relationship.

8 upvotesmd6195 years ago

Exactly. Dread game is a desperate, last ditch effort to regain control in a relationship. If you're only other option is divorce, fine. Run dread game.


Women need constant conditioning to behave. But when you live the life that constantly makes her dread losing you, you're conditioning her without even trying to condition her.

You don't have to pretend to have power. You have power.

Mate guarding is for betas who are so worried about losing some woman that they spend all day wondering about how they can stop her from fucking other guys. They have one-itis in a different form.

That's the opposite of what TRP teaches. Realize that she's easily replaceable and you have better things to do with your time than worry about her.

It's no wonder girls often end up hating or dumping their controlling boyfriends. Controlling is beta.

The good thing about learning game is that you can see how you SHOULD be acting and will be aware of when you're fucking up. Unlike a natural alpha, who is only good in till he gets trapped in the matrix, you'll have the read clear vision of Neo for the rest of your life. But relying on running dread game in order to save your relationships is no way to live. Your life is one of imitation and fear.

1 upvoteschakravanti935 years ago

Dread Game isn't a game if you're prepared to do without her. Sometimes the options are shit because she acts like shit and fuck "playing" dread game. If you're bluffing, you're fucked when the hand is up.

1 upvotesmd6195 years ago

If you're really prepared to do without her then you more than likely have options and power in the relationship.

If you had options and power in the relationship, you wouldn't NEED to run conscious dread game. Her dread would already be very real. It's really that simple

6 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

Any woman you're dating and/or fucking should know that, inherently, without you saying a word about it, just by how you live and how you conduct yourself.

Yep, and you do this by establishing boundaries and not being needy.

8 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

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8 upvotesAnon_Dutch5 years ago

Archwinger is 100% right. If she was his she wouldn't have put herself in that situation. If she was his she would not have attended without him. If she was his she would have controlled her drinking. If she was his she would act accordingly for fear of being dumped.

8 upvotesInvalidity5 years ago

Society is making it a norm though for women to have regular outings with their female friends without their boyfriends and to get as wasted as they want. She would not have put herself in that situation, had it been socially unacceptable to do so.

The values society used to have are not the values of today.

2 upvoteslolyzor5 years ago

you have a point, she will not think going, with her bffs, to a party is a show of disrespect to her man...

4 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

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2 upvotesdmt2675 years ago

Think about it.. Its not really theirs if they have to mate-guard

0 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

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5 upvotesdmt2675 years ago

Look man,if they're attacking or or being really physical its a whole different thing. I'm merely saying that If they are okay with advances from other guys,are they really yours? Like honestly

4 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

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7 upvotesiluminatiNYC5 years ago

So I also have the opinion that we just can't let girls do whatever they want since they will put themselves in position where other alphas will manage to "break" their loyalty. If we let our girls collect orbiters, won't she one day collect a "alpha" orbiter that will snatch her away ? Situations with aggressive guys and alcohol will emerge, and we can't just deal with this by ignoring.

As Chris Brown sings, these hoes ain't loyal. I don't blame other people for what goes on in my relationship. Random dudes didn't make a commitment to me, but she did. If she breaks that commitment, I'm coming for her, not some dude (or chick) that doesn't know me from a hole in the wall.

7 upvotesniczar5 years ago

For example a old "colorful" friend (before I got introduced to the red pill) of mine had the horrible habit of flirting and dancing (no slow dances though) with other guys in front of me. I never told her to fuck off because I know she was just teasing me. Sometimes I'd get angry, others I'd just ignore her and talk/dance/flirt with other girls

There's just one way to handle this properly. Stay calm and let her know it's disrespectful and that you won't stand for it. Next time she does it, well, it's "next" time. Getting angry is the kind of reaction she knows she can get from any fool. Getting embarassed and submissive is the reaction she knows she can get from any AFC. Shit test. It's manipulation.

9 upvotesjorgander5 years ago

James Marshall talked about this. For some reason I can't link to the exact time, but it starts at about 44:45, and his main point is at 47:48:

The only way in seduction that leadership is of any value, and that you have an authority as a leader, is if when the person follows you, they benefit. A good leader [...] leads through making sure their subjects benefit every time they ask them to do something.

The TLDR is don't just control or lead for the sake of controlling or leading, make sure your actions lead to positive results.

11 upvotesstreetsorcerer5 years ago

RedPill behavior is easily imitated. ANYONE can come on here, cherry-pick what they read, validate their hatred of women, pretend to be a tough guy, and bully others around without changing their behavior. That's the kind of "men" that our detractors are desperate to believe that this place will create. They had to create an entire subreddit to convince themselves that we're creating manipulating, controlling, douchebag- rapists.

The truth is something worse than TheBluePill can ever imagine. And that is that for those of us that take the time and patience to change ourselves from the inside-out, that take these lessons to improve our lives... no one will ever know. People will only see the outward product of our hard work: the object of (most) women's desires. Redpillers are women's boyfriends, husbands, sons, cousins, and nephews. We're getting larger every day, so yes, there are some vocal, bitter assholes in the mix. But we're also the handsome business executive you saw at the bank. We're the witty and charming man you met in line at the grocery. We're the muscular athlete you saw leaving the gym the other day. No one in my life will know I'm subscribed here, and no one here will know who I am in real life.

Those who take this seriously, and are in for the long haul will change their lives in a way that others will notice with overwhelmingly positive reactions. They'll never know which forums you frequent. Those who see the bigger picture, and read the nuance in the RedPill message will know that YOU are the only person that you can control.

Awesome post, as always. Thanks Arch.

10 upvotesArchwinger [OP]5 years ago

Redpillers are women's boyfriends, husbands, sons, cousins, and nephews...the handsome business executive you saw at the bank. We're the witty and charming man you met in line at the grocery. We're the muscular athlete you saw leaving the gym the other day.

I think what you're going for is that we are the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world, or something else monumental and poignant.

But on the other hand, we're not that special. We're just guys who want to succeed at life, doing what the world requires of us to be successful. It's not our rules we're following. We'd have made a much more logical and reasonable system if it were up to us.

8 upvotesstreetsorcerer5 years ago

we are the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world

That's more or less the point. I believe that feminists are actually desperate to encounter their idea of a "redpiller" if they found him in real life. They'll call TheBluePill satire, but it's quickly apparent that there is a whole subreddit devoted to convincing themselves that we are all neckbearded, misogynistic, douchebag, rapist assholes.

The truth is too terrifying for them to even talk about. The men here who are subscribed to TheRedPill, we could be anyone. We don't have an agenda, we're not protesting, we're not out to change the world. We're out to change ourselves, because we know that YOU are the only person you can hope to change.

I could be your garbage man, or a wealthy, globetrotting businessman. I suppose I could be a neckbearded basement-dweller, or I could be the musclar, suave, handsome object of women's desires. Or I might be somewhere else in the male spectrum. You and I could be anyone's brother, son, father, uncle, boyfriend, or husband.

I'm not out handing out flyers, or waving banners. I will never tell ANYONE about this particular subset of my belief system. I use TheRedPill for my own private use to better myself and to hold myself accountable to my goals for my life. I would never presume to attempt to control other people's beahavior, but I sure as hell will control mine.

I believe that's why feminists hate and fear us: they can't identify us in real life. And that's why I believe that the RedPill knowledge or a similar belief system is so important to being a man: we fundamentally understand the forces in our life that we can control. Namely, our own.

I think we're ultimately on the same page here.

1 upvotesjm515 years ago

Isn't feminism about control? They direct a lot of anger at women that 'betray the sisterhood' by working on their individual femininity.

1 upvotesstreetsorcerer5 years ago

Isn't feminism about control?

It is, like any radicalized belief system. There is no patriarchy, there is no rape culture. So feminists need a villain. They are so desperate for a villain, they need to be victims soooo badly that they've had to make TheRedPill the ultimate arbiters of misogyny. They've had to find our forum for discussing socio-sexual theory, and decide that we're the reason for all evil in the world. That's the point of TheBluePill: the need to convince themselves that we're evil.

It's truly astounding to see.

7 upvotesotiswild5 years ago

Women have the right to do whatever they want with their lives, and to pursue whatever kind of happiness they want, however they want to go about it.

Not entirely correct.. If 'however' means they want to use my money in the form of taxstortion, then they can go fuck right the hell off.

3 upvotesRedEcstasy5 years ago

To be fair, the vast majority of question asked on asktrp could be answered with "Next!".

Not only we can't control women, but also there's no point in worrying about the fact that we can't. There's no point in worrying about the veiny dick that could or could not be inside your girlfriend while you're at work. What good will worrying about it do to you?.

This is a difficult concept to grasp for those who are still pursuing the futility that is monogamy. While monogamous relationships are still possible, it's not realistic to aim for them in western culture.

Unicorns are called that way not because they're rare, but because they don't exist. They're a fantasy. The only thing stopping your beloved unicorn from jumping to the nearest high SMV dick is herself, not you. While you can influence her by becoming a high SMV male yourself, you can't truly control her. Remember that even some top of the drawer males still had cheating wives.

No amount of money, fame, SMV, alphaness, or red pill knowledge will beat the all mighty hamster-driven hypergamy. Accept this, and adapt. Do not complain, do not despair.

As Archwinger pointed out, the only thing you have truly control over is yourself.

4 upvotesAnon_Dutch5 years ago

Excellent summary of RPT, what we advocate and what we do not. That being said, to an extent "influencing," "manipulating," and "controlling" are synonyms with different connotations. Influence is viewed favorably, while manipulation and control are viewed negatively, but each is altering another's behavior according to your preferences. To those with a Kantian view of ethics, this could be seen as using another person as a means to your ends (which Kant rejects as unethical, instead he asserts that people must be viewed as autonomous beings with their own ends, not to be relegated to means to your ends). I do not share Kant's view, but it explains the negative connotation with manipulation and control. Why influence is still viewed positively in society I cannot explain. Personally, I view influence, manipulation, and control synonymously and positively.

3 upvotesj_arbuckle20125 years ago

Dread game is fundamentally about flipping the power dynamic in relationships in your favor. That is manipulative and controlling at its root, the real type of control: control of yourself and your environment. We espouse dread game all the time. When we recommend soft or hard nexting a girl, we are controlling. The Red Pill is all about control.

It's not shallow control of another person though, it's control derived from man's three great battles. Man vs. the environment (dread game, and Game), man vs. man (social skills and the "TRP Mindset"), and man vs. himself (physical fitness, self improvement, meditation, etc.). In this way we control our lives and those of others who can't control themselves. So when they say The Red Pill is controlling, it really is. It allows us to control those who can't control themselves. Who can't self-regulate their shitty emotions and weak egos. Who are so helpless, so dependent on the system that they can't disconnect and see reality for what it is.

-1 upvotesmysterioussydney5 years ago

Dread game is only used in emergencies when boundaries are crossed and all other routes have been exhausted.

1 upvotesj_arbuckle20125 years ago

No it isn't. It's fundamental to who you are. If you use it for specific instances then you're just another chump aping something you don't understand.

1 upvotesmysterioussydney5 years ago

Whilst i agree with the premise of dread game I see it as a sign of weakness or losing a grip on your own power. If a person is contininuously empolying dread then that person would by logic or feeling have an obvious problem setting boundaries and executing punishment for stepping over boundaries.

3 upvotesj_arbuckle20125 years ago

You really don't understand dread.

Men are the gatekeepers of commitment, women are the gatekeepers of sex. Dread hinges on the fact that she wants and needs your commitment more than you want her sex and you can and will take your commitment off the table at any time. It has nothing to do with controlling your partner or being unable to set boundaries. That is a weak, childish view of it. A man who understands dread understands abundance mentality and the nature of the sexual marketplace. He understands that he is the prize, and he constantly adds value to himself knowing that if he walks away from one bitch, there's another waiting for him not too far away.

That is dread. It is inherently strategic in nature. Now there are dread "tactics" insomuch as there are ways to instill dread without a good strategic plan, but these are more icing on the cake than the real thing. Things like talking about how nice the other girls treat you when the context is appropriate, not letting her meet your family or friends, keeping your privacy jealously, playing the push-pull drama game, etc. Are all great ways to instill dread in the short term, but in the end they are meaningless if you don't understand the inherent strategy of dread game, which is inherent strategy espoused by The Red Pill. Adding value to yourself, and becoming good at being a man.

1 upvotesmysterioussydney5 years ago

I understood dread game as the icing on the cake tactics you mentioned in the second half of your argument.

I agree with you in it's importance and strategy but I had an issue with the actual definition of dread game which is a DIRECT action (using tactics with purpose) not INDIRECT by adding value and bettering yourself.

Semantics I guess.

0 upvotesMarbles730895 years ago

You guys almost have this down to a science

2 upvotesiluminatiNYC5 years ago

I think a lot of women assume that since they've dealt with controlling men that AMALT, then project their issues onto other men. Let's not pretend that dudes don't work out or get more money or do all sorts of stuff to control women. The question is if one is focused on yourself or focused on others. If you're focused on yourself, it doesn't matter what other people do. Just make sure it's SELF-improvement.

2 upvotesRebootedMale5 years ago

Any woman I am involved with is free to go at any time. They can stay if they follow my rules.

It's time for feminists to stop treating women like dumb little puppets that have no free will.

5 upvotesM_rafay5 years ago

Can I just say I love your posts?

4 upvotesOffensive_Brute5 years ago

Women require men to take a leadership role and that requires a measure of control. Pretending you don't value a woman isn't going to stop her from straying any more than it would stop a cow from wondering off your property in the absence of fencing or restraint. The idea that this human livestock is ever going to respect you or be loyal to you is silly. They are like children. Almost pure id. Functioning solely to satiate their needs and wants with little to no regard for anything else. They need to be managed and handled. Hell a lot of them want it.

2 upvotesgreycloud245 years ago

the red pill is about truth first and foremost. the truth is that what you have said is the most successful and humane plan of action in the western world. but the truth is also that western society is not the only society. the truth is that being a semi decent human being in a less humane area will provide you with all of the benefits of being alpha in the western world. the truth is that in poor countries with limited freedom there are entire cultures of beta chasing women. who live in fear of acting on their hypergamous natures because of the societal retaliation that will occur against them if they do. the truth is that if you are a western beta, that you will treat these women better than their local men will, and her life will be improved as well as your life will be improved all the while she will not cheat not out of fear from you, but from fear from her own family.

you don't have to control someone in an environment that already controls them. and there is no environment where people aren't controlled. you are controlled, i am controlled, all men are controlled, all women are controlled. finding an area that controls society in a manner that you are willing to live with, and are able to live a lifestyle that you want to live is a truthful option that will help many people.

you don't have to stay in western society if you don't want too. if you don't like the way western women act, than moving to a non-western country might be the right course for you to take. but if you want to be successful with women in the western world, the common red pill posts apply to you. but don't let them lie to you. beta is not worse than alpha universally, it is only worse in countries that have had significant exposure to feminism and allow for unchecked female hypergamy.

1 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

Good read, but I have to add one point: you should share and convey your boundaries with your LTR because two persons of different backgrounds, upbringing and experiences will hold a different set of boundaries. Convey them and if she cannot respect you enough to never cross them, then it is up to you to walk away.

1 upvotessomeboringdude5 years ago

they see it as an attempt to undermine their CONTROL over men.

So much wisdom in this line right here.

1 upvotesketebwoy5 years ago

This was beautifully written. Watching weak men try and control bitches is such a sad but at the same time hilarious.

If they only knew controlling others is strength; controlling yourself is true power.

1 upvotescdlawton075 years ago

All the women I meet seem to love dogs and absolutely hate cats. I always have joked that it is because women like their dogs the way they like their men. Controllable.

1 upvotesChauvOtoo5 years ago

Solid summary, thanks.

Just as thought with this post, are we still improving the side bar? I feel like this could be tweaked to be side bar worthy... under the NEW HERE? portion.

1 upvoteshighgrav5 years ago

One of the best posts I've seen here! Awesome analysis.

1 upvotesno_face5 years ago

If you become muscular and hot, you’re just manipulating women with your good looks.

Never heard that anywhere.

If you excel professionally, you’re manipulating women with your money and status

nor this

The closest I heard was supplicating with gifts and compliments in the hope she will sleep with you is manipulation (and rightly so)

1 upvotesSpurnout5 years ago

I completely agree. One thing that I've been working on recently is emotional control and stability.

1 upvotesEvolved_Red5 years ago

The night my fiancée left me (turned out she was cheating) I made the all night drive out from the place I once called home back to my parents house.

I walk in just shy of 5am and crash their bed, told my mom the engagement was over.

Mom tells me 'Well move on. She said she doesn't love you now, and you can never control what other people feel. You can only control things that you can do, so move on."

-4 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

You break up with your woman and the first thing you do is run home to mom and wake her up? Weird

1 upvotesEvolved_Red5 years ago

Way to jump into conclusions there, bud. Have you ever had a long term relationship? Lived with a woman for years?

I lived in a town where I knew nobody, we moved there for her job. We were engaged. If you've ever actually been in a relationship you know the person dumped can't think straight, let alone stay in the same house. I jumped in my car and just drove. Decided at about 2am just to keep driving just to have some purpose. Ended up in my hometown.

But yeah, that's weird alright.

-3 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

Go tell your mom someone was mean to you on reddit

2 upvotesEvolved_Red5 years ago

I already have. I told her some big macho internet tough guy hurt my feelings and i'm gonna wear a pouty face all day now.

This is actually too much words to be wasted on someone like you. Bye troll.

1 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

Absolutely. I view this as a very healthy attitude towards relationships. No one should ever "pressure" the other person to stay in a relationship with them. That's just idiotic. If you're a good match and there's mutual attraction, both parties should stay as long as they are attracted to each other. And then, move on.

Even staying together because of kids or w/e is a bad idea. No one is forcing you to stay together, especially not your kids. My parents should have divorced a long time ago, but they stayed together because they thought it would be better for their kids, and they're still miserable. For their sakes, I wish they divorced a long time ago.

2 upvotesjm515 years ago

For my sake and my brothers, I wish my parents had divorced instead of 'staying together for the kids'. Nothing but rows and nasty insults. Looking back, my father was such a wuss that he couldn't bear the thought of being alone and having to do his own cooking, laundry and housework.

1 upvotesRobbyMalt5 years ago

It so happens to be when you're behaving contrary to how they want you to behave you're labelled as a insert negative adjective here. Then everyone around them won't believe how much of a person you where all along.

1 upvotesthrough_a_ways5 years ago

"controlling" "manipulative"

Unless you've got a gun held to your head, your fate is in your own control.

1 upvotesSummertime_Dimes5 years ago

Well put, brah. From this sub I have learned so much about letting go of my flawed perception of control. From the time I wake up to the time I go to bed, I make the decisions about me and me alone.

The problem you expressed about being deemed to be "manipulative" is real. I have experienced it. I have no evidence to support this, but I believe that many pre/TRP bros do have certain behaviors that lean TRP. I certainly did. I would say and do TRP shit because it worked, but did not understand the actual reasoning behind it. In those moments years ago, I was 100% being manipulative because it worked.

Now, I have the same behaviors and a whole host of others which are full blown TRP. Some people who have encountered those behaviors in their past did so in the context of interacting with pre/TRP me and those like me. They have a negative association with TRP behaviors because they have only dealt with them in the context of being manipulated... Is my wild ass baseless theory on the subject anyway.

Luckly, IDGAF (thanks TRP! and Obama!) so if someone calls me manipulative it has no effect and I just keep being fucking rad as usual.

Fine Post, sir. Respect.

1 upvotescirclhat5 years ago

Where The Red Pill and modern feminism and other detractors diverge, however, is that the others will tell you that self-improvement is cheating. It’s “manipulation.” If you become muscular and hot, you’re just manipulating women with your good looks. If you excel professionally, you’re manipulating women with your money and status. If you’re awesome socially, you’re just gaming women when you go out and wow them with your social network. And so on.

I never thought I would see the day where someone had to put words in a feminist mouth to prove point.

You make it seem like TRP is solely a self improvement site where we workout and eat healthy, when clearly it isn't, that is just the defense some members use. We believe in masculinity roles, shit test, last minute resistance, being aggressive, we believe rape culture is a feminist fantasy.

We believe in placing self above all else

3 upvotesArchwinger [OP]5 years ago

We believe in masculinity roles, shit test, last minute resistance, being aggressive, we believe rape culture is a feminist fantasy. We believe in placing self above all else

Nobody's arguing otherwise. Not every single post you read is going to be a comprehensive recount of every single theory or piece of information ever stated on The Red Pill. In addition to the fact that women loathe self improvement, any number of things you said above might also be so. Nobody said they weren't.

If you become muscular and hot, you’re just manipulating women with your good looks.

"Why do you work out all the time, Archwinger? You don't want to turn into some kind of jacked up meathead. Women never take a guy like that seriously...Well yeah, I know my boyfriend's a muscular guy, but he's different from the other dumb jock gymrats! You should just be yourself and not shallowly focus on your appearance like that."

If you excel professionally, you’re manipulating women with your money and status.

"Look at that guy with the Rolex and Armani suit! What the fuck is he doing in this bar dressed like that? You know why she's all over him. What a turd. Wait! He's coming this way? Quick, how do my boobs look!?"

If you’re awesome socially, you’re just gaming women when you go out and wow them with your social network.

"Did you get a load of that asshole who was flirting with all the girls in the room? Walking around like he was some kind of big shit, with each arm around a lady. What the hell were they doing humoring that guy? Oh, yeah, I used to fuck him, but he was different back then. A lot more social and charming, and less of an asshole."

1 upvotessheds825 years ago

Great post. Be the best man you can be.

1 upvoteselduckbell5 years ago

If a dog pees on your sand castle, start a new sand castle.

Just heard this on radio commercial while reading your post. I thought it fit reasonably well.

1 upvotestriceratraps5 years ago

I agree but I think this applies to all life not just females. You cant ever control anything external. You can increase the probability of certain things happening by expending energy but there is always a chance they wont. Thats why you cant attach anything emotional or "spiritual" to external circumstances.

1 upvotessymko5 years ago

I've had a good time on TRP but it's clear to me now, "All good things must come to an end." No matter how hard you try to find a perfect watering hole, a pack of wild boars will storm the brush and make it their duty to defecate around it. I'm not going to call it, "circle jerking" because all men need to be aware of TRP. But one thing you never saw in a western was a bar full of deadly gunfighters. Kudos to "the Rifleman. I fucking love that show.

TRP is a stepping stone. If you don't know by now to improve your life then our mission here was meaningless. (for those of you who are new, this comment isn't for you)

You're being controlled by every aspect of your life, your creditors control you to get a job so you can pay them back. Your wife or your girlfriend controls you because her girlfriends control their men and she's not going to be the odd woman out. Your government controls you because you don't pay attention to the freedoms they daily eliminate.(redskins) Being you is great advice, however it's in one ear and out the other. Every person aspires to be like someone they admire, never wanting to be who they are.

How many people still wanna "Be like Mike" and drop 200+ dollars, or kill for a retired athletes tennis shoe and never saw him on live tv go for a layup?

If you can't control your wife, you most certainly won't control your children and they will run all over you. If being controlling is a loser, sign me up!

1 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

This should be pinned. I think there are people that post here that do have control/jealousy issues despite the fact that they are trying so hard to become what they believe is "red pill". The person that cares less in a relationship holds all of the power. Cheaters are going to cheat. You don't have to expect the worst out of everyone, but you have to learn to be content with letting life happen. Free will.

1 upvotesRollo-Tomassi5 years ago

On Possessiveness: http://therationalmale.com/2014/01/08/possession/

1 upvotessimontemplar605 years ago

Nice post. Another way of saying this is "emotional independence"- and that would be from everyone, not just women.

1 upvotesKtigers5 years ago

This subreddit says the same shit, in a different can.

Almost like Kim Jong Il calling for peace in a UN buttfuck conference.

1 upvoteswakingupasneo5 years ago

Being jealous and controlling is “beta.” Damn right. A newbie on this sub here, and I recently woke up to this truth. A girl who I let friendzone me for 2 long years, was nexted when I realized that I was becoming a jerk by trying to control her.

0 upvoteslorddeathhh5 years ago

I just want to mention by directly controlling yourself and your actions, you are "indirectly" controlling your surroundings and the people located in those surroundings. You are being incredibly myopic, child; you are also employing fallacious logic; case in point: "You can’t control a woman," Yes, you unmitigatedly can. Just because you are neither charismatic, charming, nor good looking enough to do so doesn't mean they are incontrovertibly uncontrollable. Perchance when you graduate from high school you will realize the veracity in my sound contention.

1 upvotesFearlessBurrito5 years ago

Friendly advice: put down the thesaurus. That whole rant made for awkward reading.

0 upvotesMarbles730895 years ago

But that's just the way the world works, cause and effect, action and reaction, no matter how you cut it, one cannot exist without the other. Berating someone for no reason is about the same level as what you're saying this post is, childish.

2 upvoteslorddeathhh5 years ago

"no reason" What a risible and ludicrous assertion. He will scare away potential subscribers because the first thread they see on this subreddit might be his inane, mendacious dreck, ergo he is hypothetically ruining people's lives and I find it extraordinarily disconcerting. Have ye no moral compass?

1 upvotesMarbles730895 years ago

Not really, still new to this sub and I'm definitely soaking up the knowledge, but some aspects still elude me and maybe that's why, because I have no moral compass with which to find my way. I like this post but maybe that's because I can relate to it rather than whether or not it embodies trp

2 upvotesjm515 years ago

Marbles, you can't win an argument with a White Knight because they're always right.

but you can seduce the women they beta orbit. :)

6 upvoteslorddeathhh5 years ago

I'm definitely not a white knight. I despise feminazis way more than narcissistic pick up artists. I am a grey knight.

2 upvotesjm515 years ago

I can see where you're coming from. Plenty of narcissists incorrectly thinking of themselves as RP and they do get some success at PU. Plenty of girls looking for a ONS when they go clubbing and they usually go for the guys with the best game.

Being misogynist isn't RP imo. To slag someone off for how they're wired is plain stupid. Some PUA sites have loads of narcissistic and angry pick up artists, quite sickening the way women get referred to.

I like this sub because it never (well hardly ever) belittles women and that gets jumped on by the mods. The word 'game' hardly gets a mention, it's about being the best man that you can be. If you lurk at the Red Pill Women sub, it won't take you long to see just how happy the RPW are. You could fall in love with many of them, sight unseen. They gain a lot from pairing up with their captain and they know it.

Best they can be man looking to meet (and keep) a best they can be woman, that's how I see TRP.

1 upvotesMarbles730895 years ago

So what do when dealing with them? Is there something in the sidebar?

1 upvotesjm515 years ago

Why give a fuck about their opinion?

0 upvotesArchwinger [OP]5 years ago

I don't understand you. I think you're too smart for me. Would you share some of your perspectives by posting so men can learn from you? For my sake, try to use really little words.

0 upvotesdoladolabillyall5 years ago

You should have left our wives alone.


0 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

Me: "alltight, you can do whatever you want"

Girlfriend go fuck somebody else/give a lapdance to somebody else/kiss somebody else/anything that I don't like

girl: "but you told me I could do whatever I want!"

What can I answer to that?

-4 upvotes • [deleted] • 5 years ago

[permanently deleted]

20 upvotesArchwinger [OP]5 years ago

"Manipulation" is unavoidable. Everything we do, at least indirectly, "manipulates" someone else to do something. If I drive my car on a street and you're driving your car on that same street behind me, you're going to control your speed and stop in a manner that doesn't cause a car accident. I'm "manipulating" you to avoid hitting my car with yours. I'm not "controlling" you by beating the hell out of you until you drive the way I say to drive. I'm just controlling my own actions, which in turn influence you to behave a certain way.

I might not even be aware you're there -- or maybe I am, but I'm not driving the way I am with the intent of provoking a reaction from you. I just don't want to get a speeding ticket because I just got one last month, or I was in a car accident recently, or I forgot my sunglasses this morning and can't see too well and am taking it slow. I'm focusing on me and doing things in a way that maximizes my life. Nonetheless, I'm an evil manipulative driver.

That's the situation we face. If we complain that a woman is behaving in an undesirable manner and ask her to stop, we're "trying to control" her. But if we refrain from attempting to control her at all and just do our own thing, we're "manipulating" her by withdrawing our attention and focusing on raising our own value. It's a carefully-crafted, damned if you do/don't scenario.

Anything that results in you having sex and/or having a woman respect you is wrong and evil.

1 upvotesmysterr95 years ago

Perhaps it would be preferable to substitute the word "influence" in place of the word "manipulate," as the latter implies a certain degree of volitional control over the process being described.

-1 upvotesLordOfMurderMountain5 years ago

Fucking bravo! Its great that someone was able to articulate our TRP philosophy so eloquently.

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