Can women be feminine while with a masculine man and not be dependent on him?

larrythetomato · 2019-01-16T14:26:31+00:00

I think that what you are looking for the philosophical concept of Dependence, Independence and Interdependence.

These are stages of emotional and social growth. As a child, you are completely dependant on your parents, as you age into adolescence you start to become more and more independent, then ideally as you grow older into a fully mature adult, you start to develop relationships where you provide some needs of others with others doing the same for you.

I think you are somewhere in the middle of the first two and you are looking for another option. You are only seeing Dependence and Independence and worried about giving up the power and freedom of independence for the benefits and security of dependence. I think if you read up on the concept interdependence you will find the answer you are looking for.

On the specific topic of dominant relationships. You don't have to be in a relationship where either you control everything like a spoiled child, or defer to everyone like a doormat. It is possible that you can a relationship where you specifically choose to defer to someone else in specific cases and not others, as long as that you appreciate that you must also give or take the responsibility of the outcome.

philomexa · 2019-01-16T15:15:10+00:00

You seem to be hung up on labels. Romantic relationships fall across a pretty reliable paradigm, what people call the dynamics therein are just stories they tell themselves.

Littleknownfacts · 2019-01-16T13:23:33+00:00

Why do you see submissiveness as being inferior?

John_Strange · 2019-01-16T15:35:43+00:00

I can’t emphasize this enough: don’t post in this forum for relationship advice.

The Red Pill people here have such a warped view of the way human relationships work based on flawed assumptions built up over years in echo chambers. Even if I had faith in every totem of their weird cult, I wouldn’t go to their fora for advice because they are so condescending and self-trained to negate their better angels that they become incapable of doing anything but spouting off ideological ramblings. You can see it here with a couple of the responses.

They’re going to go on about hypergamy, feminism, and selected readings from the out-of-context neurobiology that conveniently explain their failures with women. You could hardly choose worse people from whom to take advice about finding a healthy, happy, and self-actualizing relationship.

Ask a close friend for advice, and if you don’t have those, see a therapist.

PhotosyntheticChad · 2019-01-16T14:19:27+00:00

Do you not see them as a complimentary pairing?

Different functions with equal responsibility?

A mutually beneficial partnership?

Because that’s what a relationship should be really.

Equating femininity with weakness just because men are physically stronger than women is a really ridiculous aspect of feminism.

HonestyOverCivility · 2019-01-16T13:29:18+00:00

Whether you’re in a relationship or in the military, you’ll only take issue with being subordinate to someone when you don’t respect them or suspect them to be an incompetent leader.

furcryingoutloud · 2019-01-16T14:11:02+00:00

living like that would make me inferior to my male partner

If you have the right partner, you would not notice this at all. It is up to you to choose the right partner. Here are a few things to look for. How does he treat waiters and waitresses? Is he respectful to everyone he meets? Does he have hired help at home? And how does he treat them or refer to them?

A proper man(human?) would be conscious of people's need to feel appreciated and really appreciate the things they do for him regardless of whether he pays them or not.

Derogatory terms and humiliation are severe red flags. This goes to both men and women. In your case, if your man is generous with praise and appreciates your support, you should have no trouble assuming the caretaker role in a relationship because you will feel the need for you to do this is more appreciated and rewarded.

So no, you would not be inferior in any way, I would say that, on the contrary, your support can be crucial to a successful relationship in that you may be the sole inspiration for greater things.

[deleted] · 2019-01-16T14:34:21+00:00

You are being submissive by your own accord. You are feminine because you are willing to do so. It does not make you inferior in anything. Stop reading feminist propaganda. Men are also masculine to you in their own accord. Both are equal. With strengths and weaknesses in different places. Do not put yourself down.

TheBookOfSeil · 2019-01-16T14:51:16+00:00

You can be nurturing and supporting without being dependent on others. Dependency is a separate trait because dependency stems from fear.

SpaceWhiskey · 2019-01-16T19:47:05+00:00

I certainly think so. I personally consider myself to have what I’ve recently started calling ‘Mary Poppins big dick energy’. I’m very feminine and flirty and nurturing in many ways but I’m also not an inherently submissive person, at all, and I prefer and arguably even demand equality in my relationships.

This issue isn’t so much can you be that way, the answer is yes, the real issue is finding a partner who wants that. Not someone who tolerates it, not someone who secretly hopes you’ll change, but someone who appreciates your complexity exactly the way it is.

equanimous_samsara · 2019-01-16T13:35:28+00:00

When you mention "wanting to help and not lead" it comes off as wanting the perks of being dependent/submissive, and also the perks of being a fellow leader who is on a level position relative to them.

Not to say it's not possible, I'm sure you can find someone who will tolerate that, but in their mind they will know.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2019-01-16T13:47:49+00:00

The lead are inferior to the leader in a very literal sense--secondary not primary. I mean this is just by definition

lefactorybebe · 2019-01-16T13:49:50+00:00

I definitely think it's possible, with the right person, a person who wants an egalitarian relationship.

I am all of those things with my boyfriend, but we have an equal relationship. I have a tendency to go with whatever he wants (and generally do this with most people), and I feel bad expressing what I want if it's counter to what he wants. We actually had a conversation about it a couple weeks ago, he brought it up. He said he wants me to voice my opinion more, and his exact words were "I want to know what you think because I value your opinion and I want your input".

He wants a more egalitarian relationship, which is just lucky on my part. Someone who wants more of a dominant role could easily take advantage, luckily he's not one of those people.

So I believe it's totally possible, as long as you find someone who wants that type of relationship.

theawaregirl · 2019-01-16T13:41:28+00:00

I think that you're a little confused on submission, inferiority, being led, etc..

The man is supposed to have the dominant role in the relationship, and the woman is supposed to have the submissive role in the relationship. This does not mean one partner is superior or inferior to the other, they are both vital in the dynamic and simply have different roles to play.

Look at your masculine partner as the captain of the ship and look at yourself as the first mate. While he may be the one leading the ship, you are still vital and capable and the leader in your own areas.

Why is submitting scary? Because you are afraid to lose control? Because you are afraid to be burnt? Because you are afraid to trust someone so completely?

Women who cling to control are afraid of something... so identify that fear and work to release it. If you trust the man you are with, there is no greater gift you could give him, yourself, or your relationship than to submit to him.

And to clarify, submit does not mean kneel down and obey his every whim. Submit means to release control, to follow his lead, to respect him and his decisions, and so on.

Have you read The Surrendered Wife OR The Empowered Woman by Laura Doyle or Fascinating Womanhood by Helen Andelin? I highly recommend reading them.

CatchPhraze · 2019-01-16T15:14:43+00:00

"You can lead as long as I like where we're going. "

I'm agreeable and supportive for the most part. There is nothing superior in trying to usurp a good thing just because you aren't at the head.

If you like to be the more passive or submissive partner then enjoy your life , you absolutely don't need to depend on a man and you absolutely don't need to sacrifice your personal happyness or goals.

Ladyofblades · 2019-01-16T15:54:07+00:00

Amal Clooney does not seem submissive or dependent but is feminine.

[deleted] · 2019-01-16T15:55:25+00:00

I think to have an "equal" relationship there will always be dependency coming from both sides. Being an independent person isn't limited by depending on your partner.

Example: You might be more dependent on his financial soundness. He might be more dependent on you to help him relax or be emotional support. You might depend on him to take care of the yard work, just like he might want to depend on you to have clean dishes.

The goal is to be equal even though it generally will be unfair depending on what you value things.

So to answer your question I think that traditional roles have no barring on your independence as a person.

Khiv_ · 2019-01-16T16:19:06+00:00

As a man who likes submissive women, I can say that it’s positive for her to be independent, have her own life. I don’t want her to depend on me for every little thing, I just want her to enjoy my company and to give in to my desire, and I also expect to call the shots as in what is allowed or not in the relationship.

Dunno if you find my way to be good, but what I’m trying to say is that you might be able to fins a balance. Be your own woman among your friends and in your career and hobbies, but respect the man you are with and let him be “the man” in your life.

[deleted] · 2019-01-16T16:25:48+00:00

"can a person be primarily nurturing, supportive, empathetic, people focused as opposed to things, social, wanting to help and not lead..."

People are what they do, and if those are your strengths and motivations across the board then you're submissive. If it makes you feel inferior to define yourself that way that's societal conditioning, upbringing, etc. Maybe it's negative association with the word "submissive" itself. I admit it makes me sneer on the inside.

As far as making you feel bad, why? I'd categorize myself as submissive in my marriage but I didn't set out to be, it just is. Hell if I told 19yr old me that she'd die from laughter or a rage based aneurysm. Dynamics are very specific to the people and relationship they're at play in, so by the same token some of my exes would absolutely die laughing if I described myself as submissive!

My advice would be to not get ahead of yourself. If you're happy in a good relationship and submission is a naturally occurring thing, go with it. Why fight it? If you're feeling unappreciated, unheard, and like a mommy-fucktoy then run. Submission doesn't mean torturing yourself or allowing someone else to ruin your life slowly through shitty decisions. Self preservation is always a thing.

dudenotrightnow · 2019-01-16T17:09:42+00:00

lol. I hate to break it to you guys (namely: Americans who are obsessed with pretending they are "independent") but in a healthy relationship, *no one* is independent. both partners depend on each other in different ways. whether it's emotional support, sexual needs, safety and well-being, child rearing, housekeeping, or financial means...if your partner is not contributing, or if they are contributing too much, the relationship will not last.

Engineeringirl11 · 2019-01-16T18:43:05+00:00

You can absolutely avoid that situation. Being feminine doesn’t mean being weak. It’s true that the qualities you described are more focused on nurturing and following a more traditional role but those roles also require a great deal of leadership that you could really own and feel strong in. The way I see it is that a relationship is a partner ship where each person leads with their strengths. So I’m a great cook that means meal prep is my job but my fiancé always helps and does the dishes afterwards so the work is split evenly. He’s also more charismatic than I am so when in public I try and take a step back and have him lead. It’s all about teamwork and respecting each other. So I’d say you can still be feminine and be with a strong masculine personality as long as you both equally respect the others strengths. Basically if he thinks any type form of listening to you or helping you is below him he doesn’t respect you.

LifterofThings · 2019-01-16T21:38:14+00:00

Why is having a superior male partner not something that interests you? Surely you can accept that there are other humans out there who are your superiors, that you admire... why not get one of those as a spouse? "Inferior" doesn't mean "bad".

JustForPPD · 2019-01-16T13:37:32+00:00

Submission in a relationship is not inferiority. You're not less than him, you're not at his mercy. It's also based on trust and respect from either side. You got to trust that the man is leading you with the best interests of both and you respect his toolset to do so. He must respect you and your autonomy, making decisions based on what's best for both and he must trust that you'll stick with him after a decision is made. Boundaries must be respected and held from each side.

There's a more active and leading side, but I don't see it as superiority over the other partner.

sadomasochrist · 2019-01-16T13:38:58+00:00

I'll save you the life effort, you're not feminine, you're just a woman. Women who are represented on the internet as "strong independent" ball buster types are outliers.

You're just a normal woman. So date normally.

What you want isn't ideologically consistent. You want him "to lead" but not to follow. That's pseudo leadership. That being said, most guys who think they're "dominant" will "lead" this way. So if that's what you want its in plentiful supply.

Fundamentally this is just an issue of control. If you let go, you'll be happier. The only thing you should worry about controlling is your mate choice. But we already know that's not going to change, so just date psuedo dominant men who are actually in your frame.

That's the issue. When you don't actually submit, you still have control and power in the relationship. So what you want is to pretend to be led. Just like women in the kink community who want men who ask for permission for every act and to dance to her tune and then pretend he's dominant. That's why they call them "scenes." Because it's theatre. You want masculine theatre.

AutoModerator · 2019-01-16T13:17:06+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

azngirl7689 · 2019-01-16T13:38:58+00:00

No, either whole ass it or don’t do it at all.

Offhisgame · 2019-01-16T17:44:39+00:00

Yes. /thread

Critical_Stress · 2019-01-16T18:48:43+00:00

As long as you've vetted your partner properly, then you know that when he takes the lead he will be looking out for your best interests as well as his own. Femininity is not inferior, that's just a lie that culture has taught us.

jenovajunkie · 2019-01-16T19:32:03+00:00

Ideally, it's her choice to be whatever she chooses to be.

cxj · 2019-01-16T20:28:10+00:00

Yes you can do all of those things. Bizzaro feminism culture made you feel “inferior” for living as your natural self, in reality tradcon men think highly of their wives and love and respect them, they just don’t think in feminist/socialist terms of “equality.”

The only thing I can say is what I’ve said to many women irl: if you say you want a man to lead, you are going to have to get used to following, and this may occasionally include directions you don’t understand or disagree with. He will also be wrong and make mistakes sometimes. I guess pay attention to the overall destination of the ship rather than the minutiae if decisions or something?

You are not the only woman I’ve heard say she wants a man who leads.

[deleted] · 2019-01-16T20:32:01+00:00

What do you mean by being dependent? In the way I understand it, it wouldn't be bad to be dependent on your man. You both depend on each other because you complement one another, and this dynamic works wonderfully with a feminine woman+masculine man. So maybe your definition of dependency is different than mine. What do you mean?

reluctantly_red · 2019-01-16T21:07:49+00:00

Metaphorically fighting for dominance in a relationship is fun. Cannot imagine being in a relationship with a submissive woman.

wprtogh · 2019-01-16T21:42:26+00:00

Yes.

Lonny_zone · 2019-01-17T05:12:10+00:00

if a person has a primarily feminine personality, are they destined to be led by a masculine man in a relationship?

Yes. A feminine woman cannot lead a masculine man anywhere unless he has a boner.

More seriously, a sufficiently feminine woman simply will not challenge the lead of an attractive man who she respects and admires. If you feel like you could take the lead, but you have to reign yourself in to be a Red Pill Woman, then that is not the right guy for you.

goatismycopilot · 2019-01-17T15:41:19+00:00

If you are submissive and a truly feminine character in a relationship and that is the dynamic you have agreed upon then you are inferior to your dominant/captain husband and that is how he will communicate and relate to you.

i_have_a_semicolon · 2019-01-17T16:59:46+00:00

The only thing that makes women dependant on men is relying on him for a) his paycheck and b) his emotional validation. If you can get those for yourself i dont see why not.

Engineeringirl11 · 2019-01-17T22:30:42+00:00

I disagree and science does too. You’re too caught up in your small minded world to see the world changing around you. Why choose to die on this hill? Gender roles are one of the worse human rights violations in history and we are only now beginning to recover from them. I say gender roles because the assumptions we make about both genders can be toxic to both men and women at times. Why are you so fixated on such small differences?

Engineeringirl11 · 2019-01-16T14:50:35+00:00

A feminine woman doesn't care about being "inferior" to a male partner BECAUSE she is feminine and understands her place. So you OP aren't as feminine as you think. A feminine woman accept the reality as it is and does what's best for the man. That doesn't mean she loses interest in her own well being, just that the manages both things and comes up with solutions how to make her and her man happy. That's femininity.

JezebeltheQueen5656 · 2019-01-17T01:19:24+00:00

So my basic question is, if a person has a primarily feminine personality, are they destined to be led by a masculine man in a relationship?

so, just because someone said those traits imply subservience by default, you are gonna believe it?

i know women like this who need no man and despise to be led. dont let males define you.

Title	Can women be feminine while with a masculine man and not be dependent on him?
Author	KateB1819
Upvotes	36
Comments	169
Date	January 16, 2019 1:08 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/agkysk/can_women_be_feminine_while_with_a_masculine_man/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/can-women-be-feminine-while-with-a-masculine-man.257796 https://theredarchive.com/post/257796

Comments