Q4RP: Which of these following statements are hypocritical?

321PK · 2018-11-27T21:21:33+00:00

Why tho? Why not ask your real question, whatever it is?

Pope_Lucious · 2018-11-27T21:14:35+00:00

Why are you like this?

BiggerDthanYou · 2018-11-27T21:22:11+00:00

oh my dear. Logic. My favorite subject.

Let me ask first the following question: which of the following question passages are hypocritical?

I like chocolate but I hate/dislike chocolate.
I like chocolate for its addictive flavor but I hate/dislike chocolate for its addictive flavor.
I like chocolate for its flavor but I hate/dislike chocolate for its addictiveness.
I like chocolate for its sweetness but I hate/dislike chocolate for its sweetness.
I like Danish chocolate but I hate/dislike Nordic chocolate.

Now the hard part, what needs to be defined.

What is the meaning of the particle "but"? addition or exclusion?
Can you like and dislike, or hate, the same thing in English? (In my language, there is not a contradiction or hypocrisy, as you are capable of liking and disliking or hating the same thing.)
Can you like and dislike an aspect of the same thing?
What does the author means with "sweetness" in its first and second passage of question 4? are these related?

I am not a native English speaker, so you tell me.

I think this is a serious case of bad written question or, more probable, ambiguity fallacy.

Where the author of the claims does not define the argument well enough to know the definitions of said thing, and leave it at that, to maintain confusion. For example, you can say that a chocolate from south african called Dan (thus Danish) can be interpreted the 5th question mean a new thing entirely.

----Now the answer----

You can clearly know that "oily pizza" is a subset of "pizza", and not all pizza is oily or even most of the set "pizza" is "oily pizza". The only question is to ask if the "but" means addition.

The definitions of masculine behavior and toxic masculine behavior are quite similar, or down right the same in feminist literature, namely in the writings of Kuper, Dworkin and Stoltenberg. and in some non scientific articles, It is hard to find a difference between having masculine genitalia and being toxic. Thus making a strange scenario.

Thus there is a possibility of reading question C the same as "I do not like oily pizza, and I like oily pizza" which in my language is not a contradiction alone, but it is quite the complicated matter. As anything you claim based in these assertions do make it into a contradiction.

Mattcwu · 2018-11-28T00:17:34+00:00

I think the issue is the adjective toxic x (nu metal band name of the day) is a property to x itself. Nobody says "That dude had toxic beer and threw up. They say he had too much beer and threw up."

I think the real analogy here is:

"I like pizza, but I don't like toxic pizza."

It reads weird because pizza isn't inherently toxic (barring Hawaiian). Have you ever heard anyone say a sentence like that about anything? Toxins are toxic. Too much pizza being a bad thing doesn't mean it's a 'little toxic' or, some types of pizza is toxic (except hawaiian - jesus) toxicity just isn't a property of pizza.

If people said "I like masculinity but too much of it sucks", that whole PR problem would go away I. But everyone gotta be tribal and label the other inherently bad.

Mr_Smoogs · 2018-11-27T17:52:57+00:00

The lines between masculine and toxic masculinity are not black and white. They are often grey and dependent on the audience.

Protectiveness can easily be perceived as possessiveness. Stoicism can easily be perceived as emotionally closed off. Self-reliance can easily be seen as a refusal to get help when needed.

You are acting like there is nothing hypocritical between:

"I like stoic men"

and

"I do not like toxic masculinity"

When in all practicality it is certainly hypocritical. You can't like stoicism and then not like toxic masculinity. Tough and stoic, and a lack of emotional expression has long been a hallmark of traditional masculinity.

Also, calling something toxically masculine implies these are unique traits afforded only to men. Can you name some positive masculine traits unique to men?

It comes off as misandrist because you are taking a bunch of negative traits or outcomes and calling them masculine. Meanwhile, typical traits that are positive and foundational to masculinity like confidence, strength, humor etc.. are all of a sudden considered gender neutral.

I prefer masculine men,

What is exactly meant by this? I'll assume this is a claim that a person prefers and desires the traditional male gender role or behavioral traits commonly associated with men, and not physical features typically associated with men and therefore masculine. The best-case archetype for this hypothetical man is usually strong, protecting, providing and self-sacrificing.

For a man to feel a need to fulfill a strong role to protect women, he has to assume women are weak and are in his possession - toxically masculine.

For a man to feel a need to fulfill a role to provide and self-sacrifice for women, he has to assume women are in need of someone taking care of them - toxically masculine.

I'll change my mind here if you give me a list of feminist sources that excuses benevolent sexism as anything else but toxic masculinity. According to the feminist notion of benevolent sexism, male saviors are oozing toxic masculinity.

Traditional masculinity is deeply rooted in benevolent sexism. Given that benevolent sexism is toxic masculinity, then there is no way to prefer masculine men while not liking toxic masculinity.

https://medium.com/@tessintrovert/sexism-101-the-benevolent-misogynist-9a0dcaa2013c

https://neuroleadership.com/your-brain-at-work/peter-glick-on-how-benevolent-sexism-undermines-women/

Masculine behaviors of the traditional male gender role are widely considered benevolently sexist. And benevolent sexism is widely considered toxic masculinity. Hence, preferring traditional masculinity while not liking toxic masculinity is hypocritical.

Of course, you don't have to agree that benevolent sexism is toxic masculinity. But according to the definition of toxic masculinity...:

is defined as a practice that legitimizes men's dominant position in society and justifies the subordination of women, and other marginalized ways of being a man

...benevolent sexism obviously justifies the subordination and inferiority of women. Therefore, the traditional behavioral traits commonly called masculinity is toxic masculinity.

woolleybear · 2018-11-28T06:39:56+00:00

Toxic Masculinity = Masculine men that aren't physically attractive.

lucky_beast · 2018-11-28T02:45:59+00:00

OP getting their agendapost repeatedly slapped the fuck down, ouch.

TheGreasyPole · 2018-11-27T18:43:49+00:00

None of the above is hypocritical.

Mattcwu · 2018-11-27T18:40:10+00:00

Why do you have to gender someones toxic behavior? There are plenty of toxic, bitchy females out there but no one's complaining about "toxic femininity".

GayLubeOil · 2018-11-27T21:00:07+00:00

Rainy days and oily Pizza are real things. Toxic Masculinity is a social construct used to destroy traditional family values and push leftist degeneracy.

Better luck next time.

Barely-moral · 2018-11-27T17:57:23+00:00

What is this?

Lets see about A) "I love days that have the trait X but I hate the days that have the trait Y" I don't see a contradiction. There is no reason to say that could be hypocritical.

Lets see about B) "I like X but I hate X that has trait Y"

It is poorly phrased. It is contradiction because the phrase says that I love all X but then the phrase says I hate some specific kind of X.

It would be more appropiate and there would be less risk of being hypocritical if I say "I love most X, but I hate X that comes with trait Y". In most cases, the phrase means that, but it is confusing. Poorly phrased.

Lets see about C)... Define your terms first. If we assume that toxic masculinity is a trait that can be added to masculine men then it is the same as B). If we assume that toxic masculinity always exist on masculine men it is complex but even that is not hypocritical. It is perfectly possible to love someone and dislike an aspect of the same person.

[deleted] · 2018-11-27T23:16:38+00:00

I feel like toxic masculinity only refers to destructive behaviors associated with masculinity. For example: being hot headed, yelling a lot, bossing people around, getting into physical and verbal fights easily, aggressive and selfish sexual behavior, etc. I don't think it is hard to picture a masculine man who lack these traits. It is totally possible.

iceicle999 · 2018-11-28T01:43:49+00:00

This entire thread is based around C. Women want to have their cake and eat it too, and they whine on the internet all the time that men can't be the perfect concoctions for them, and that's just what women do. There are plenty of masculine guys out there who are that perfect concoction, now go get them, sport.

Eastuss · 2018-11-28T09:14:14+00:00

D) I prefer masculine men, but I do not like masculine men who are not putting me first and act in their own interests

E) I want men to show their emotions more, but not the emotions they have, only the emotions that I have

F) When I have issues, society should change, when he has issues, he should change

Sort this out.

daveofmars · 2018-11-28T00:10:11+00:00

I don't even know what toxic masculinity is.

abaxeron · 2018-11-27T18:17:02+00:00

Provide the sufficient definition of toxic masculinity.

Disclaimer: definition provided by Geek Feminism is not sufficient.

Disclaimer: definition provided by Raewyn Connell is not sufficient.

A sufficient definition of toxic masculinity is the one that would explain distinction between masculinity and toxic masculinity to an alien from another galaxy who just learned your language.

A sufficient definition must not cause circular reasonings and, for statement C not to be hypocritical, must not necessitate to conclude that men are bad or harmful. Example to the conrary:

Alien: So what's this 'toxic masculinity' thing?

You: It's a set of societal expectations placed upon people on the basis of sex that cause harm.

Alien: How can expectations placed upon a person cause harm? If you expect me to bring a space armada onto orbit to take over Earth and evaporate humanity in a cloud of overheated fluoride, so what? What's the harm here? It doesn't mean that I will actually do it, so what's the difference?

You: Well the problem is - people often follow these expectations.

Alien: Wait-wait, are women totally immune to expectations placed upon them?

You: No, but with men, it usually ends up causing way more harm....

ROUND LOST. You've just told the alien that men are bad.

Your turn.

fatalcharm · 2018-11-28T00:48:19+00:00

None of these. I am not sure what your point is. Are you saying that all masculinity is toxic masculinity and that all masculine men are toxic? Mentally stable people don't actually believe that.

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Mattcwu · 2018-11-28T00:33:19+00:00

Are these hypocritical?

D) I like men, but I don't like pussy, limp-wristed men.

E) I like Muslims, but I do not like extremest douche bag Muslims.
F) Feminists are fine, but man-hating feminists bother me.

InsanoVolcano · 2018-11-28T01:35:17+00:00

rule 4

Autistic_Reeeeeeeeee · 2018-11-28T01:00:43+00:00

There is no such thing as toxic masculinity, Only masculinity

There is no such thing as toxic femininity, Just femininity.

It is all subjective from that point onwards.

What you consider toxic others may consider vital to their masculinity or femininity.

To think something naturally occurring through evolution and natural selection for thousands and thousands of years could be termed with such stupid and ill placed phrases is beyond me.

alreadyredschool · 2018-11-28T13:23:28+00:00

Bonus challenge:

D) It's wrong to say Fireman because that word discourages girls from becoming Firefighters. The same is true for pretty much every word, ya'all need to be more sensible about what you are saying, words have power! What kind of stupid idiot are you to think that "patriarchy, toxic masculinity, yadda yadda" are not the perfect way to describe that phenomenon, what? People take an issue with the name, well fuck them they should educate themselves about the thing I want to convince them about to get their help/to help them.

If you would understand anything, I mean even the slightest thing about toxic masculinity then you would also understand that someone suffering from TM would not respond well to "DAE be able to read?", posts like that are ruining progress, they work against the good cause, so people start questioning the cause, in the end you shoot yourself in the foot, good job, but hey at least you were right ⁱⁿ ^your ^mind.

Now before someone thinks about the glorious idea to once again mention that no one ever has a problem with the name, just look at which thread we are in. Op why did you make this thread? Could it be that it's because the term works against the cause? What is more important helping people or calling it TM? Try calling it male disposability and see what happens. Ya all are just too stupid too communicate, you prefer semantics over facts, being right over finding the truth, flinging shit over understanding each other.

Mattcwu · 2018-11-27T23:12:17+00:00

Why is it so hard for the manosphere to understand that toxic masculinity is not all masculinity?

machimus · 2018-11-27T19:50:50+00:00

None of the above?

WhatIsTheMeaningHere · 2018-11-27T19:58:04+00:00

None of them.

ifeelfuckingterrible · 2018-11-28T00:17:47+00:00

"I don't hate black people, I just don't like thug culture."

This is the same kind of "not technically hypocritical" that your statement about toxic masculinity is, and how it comes off to others. When you start bringing up these hate based terms and ideas from the start, people aren't going to be fooled.

Pesky_Gibbon · 2018-11-27T21:19:23+00:00

I mean, all pizza is oily pizza. You wouldn't know that you loved sunny days if it weren't for rainy days. And so on and so forth...

nihilistic_spaghetti · 2018-11-27T22:08:03+00:00

oily pizza is the best

Title	Q4RP: Which of these following statements are hypocritical?
Author	BiggerDthanYou
Upvotes	10
Comments	214
Date	November 27, 2018 5:46 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/a0x59r/q4rp_which_of_these_following_statements_are/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4rp-which-of-these-following-statements-are.258845 https://theredarchive.com/post/258845

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