CMV: High casualty jobs being primarily occupied by men is not evidence that men have it unfair

TopOccasion29 · 2018-11-25T08:18:12+00:00

Yes men do take these jobs more often, but a woman working in any of these dangerous jobs will be paid the same as the men even if she's less physically capable for some things...For example military men and women of the same ranking get equal pay...but the physical demands for the men are higher than the women...You see.

Work/Life Balance point doesn't necessary mean anything and i disagree that men's casualties on the job is moot...Casualty is casualty.

Salty-Bastard · 2018-11-25T12:36:23+00:00

We know the 77 cent trope is not true. It was a poor interpretation of bad statistics to further an agenda.

Karakal456 · 2018-11-25T08:25:22+00:00

I cannot remember any MRA saying it was unfair that men have all (most) high-casualty jobs, although I may be mistaken here.

What I have seen is pointing out the obvious hypocrisy that is the push for women to get into high-paying comfortably jobs while at the same time ignoring all other fields of work with a skewed gender ratio. Especially while yelling “it’s not equal”!!?

While I can to an extent agree that men are on average more physically capable, you cannot use gender characteristics as an argument in one sentence and deny them again in the next (not saying you do that). Again, that is blatant hypocrisy.

edited a word

MGTOWtoday · 2018-11-25T07:39:17+00:00

It depends on how you look at it. Yes, men take the most dangerous jobs and work harder and longer, but it is an injustice to pay women the same as men when men work long hours at a dangerous job while women work shorter hours at a safe easy job.

Archibald_Andino · 2018-11-25T10:53:56+00:00

The point is that if the statistics were reversed, the mainstream media, governments, corporations, etc wouldn't be ignoring it, it would be a top priority to address.

Example: Girls in STEM = top priority, boys education gap = nothing

Haste- · 2018-11-25T08:32:09+00:00

77 cents, theres so much wrong with that stat. it consists of ALL jobs put against each other in a male vs female relation. No rank, job type, etc is taken into account. Stop using it, it just makes you sound dumb.

On top research shows that women and men in the same position ends up paying the women more than the man. So stop using the “wage gap” stat, its a sad play that never works.

Otherwise i think the market should dictate most wages almost completely with exception to that of minimum wage. If a fireman’s job has 2 workers to every 1 that is needed, then half of the firemen won’t be able to work. Maybe the pay stops increasing so much overtime and in 5 years the pay isn’t as appealing to some and now you have 1.2 people applying for every 1 job position. This is a decent act of balance

The same goes for high demand jobs. If there are 10 jobs available to every 1 computer programmer you could easily set your standard for pay. They don’t like 100k salary? Too bad, you’ll just work under someone else that pays you 100k.

Obviously these examples are a little out there but its to prove a point. Otherwise most men go for these high casualty jobs because they either like them more or its great pay for less requirements (maybe no degree needed?). I know i’ve considered some trades simply because the pay is great once you finish apprenticeship, but it is physically taxing work for sure.

Edit: typo

SerpentCypher · 2018-11-25T10:32:16+00:00

I completely agree. Just like women getting paid less for taking cushy jobs and working less hours isn't evidence that there is discrimination or that women have it worse.

Aaren_Augustine · 2018-11-25T08:18:07+00:00

I think the observations is that women have it way better. And women dont make less. I believe this has been proven sufficiently false.

AloysiusC · 2018-11-25T11:00:13+00:00

Men love risk. No surprise they die more frequently

Tedesche · 2018-11-25T18:27:31+00:00

I agree, but I don’t think you understand the argument MRAs are making. We’re not saying men o cult these jobs because they’re forced to by societal stereotypes (those are in play, but men are still * choosing* these jobs). The complaint is that much ado is made by feminists over women not making up most of the population of the most highly paid positions in the economy, but never say a peep about the fact that they mostly don’t occupy the worst positions either. It’s not just about money, men do all the most dangerous jobs in society; why should we be the ones to take on all the occupational physical risk? If women want to be in richly-compensated positions, fine; but where are the calls for them to put in their of the labor in the sewage system? Likewise, women want men to take up more of the domestic chores so that women are free to work more; fine, so where are the women building our roads and wiring our homes? Feminists want men to do more “women’s work,” so that women can do only the sort of “men’s work” that most suits them. As Bill Burr said, they treat equality like a buffet: a little bit of equal pay, voting rights, yum, but being a lumberjack, mandatory conscription, being shot as a job risk, ew, no thanks!

So, it’s not that MRAs have a problem with men working these jobs by choice, and we certainly aren’t saying the chief issue is gender discrimination; we’re saying that, if women want to occupy the highest positions in society, they should take up more of the worst.

reluctantly_red · 2018-11-25T13:19:14+00:00

OP is comparing apples and oranges. Everyone is entitled to a safe workplace. A lot of traditionally male job pay well because of the arduous conditions they have to be performed under. However, these hard jobs are not always particularly dangerous. Regardless the counter to OPs point is that men being maimed and killed on the job doesn't engender much sympathy from the general public. If it were pretty young white women who were dying there would be an outcry. Interestingly guys and minority women are similarly situated here -- polite white society doesn't really care if they die or not.

Regal_Newt · 2018-11-25T16:09:44+00:00

The 77 C per dollar takes into account all fields. Even when controlling for field and education, there's an overall roughly 6% difference in pay that can be attributed to nothing but gender. This increases drastically for black women.

Right out of college, there's almost no gap between men and women in the same field and with the same education. There are even some cities where childless unmarried men make less than women. However, this is rare and the exception rather than the rule.

After having a child, a woman in the same field, position, and with the same education are offered less jobs with lower starting salaries than a woman without a child. However, the opposite is true of men. They're offered more jobs at higher salaries.

And, even in female dominated fields, men disproportionately get promoted, even when the women are fully qualified. For example, if 90% of librarians are winding, but 80% of head librarians are male. That stat might be a bit off, but it's something like that.

Not to mention that women do the vast majority of unpaid work.

LeJacquelope · 2018-11-25T08:30:09+00:00

LOL we take those jobs because women won't - at least, not in America. Someone has to keep society running.

Women take those jobs in places like China and then they turn around and fight for safer workplaces. Win-win for all.

[deleted] · 2018-11-25T10:28:32+00:00

I agree with the header, it's not unfair; in the same way that it's not unfair that men are paid more on the whole for picking more risky\straineous jobs. The only reason it's brought up as an argument is because it's as silly as the one proclaimed by the other side. "You want more money? You're prepeared to lose a limb for it?" An over-exaggerated and silly statement obviously, on par with the "1$ vs 0,77$" argument; it's a fucking dumb one.

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Legaladesgensheu · 2018-11-25T11:40:04+00:00

We know the statistic of a woman earning 77 cents for a man's dollar is true because men pursue more of a work/life balance skewed towards work than women do NOT because employers unfairly pay women

Source? As far as I am aware the scientific consensus is that both factors contribute, but life choices are the bigger contributor compared to gender discrimination. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a small, but significant, gender gap between the payment of men and women which can be explained by gender based discrimination.

But to come back to your view: I think the argument can be made that men have it unfair because they occupy high casualty jobs more often than women. Who says that "unfairness" can't be rooted in biology (e.g. that men are more physically capable for these jobs?). What we should do then, as a society, is to make sure that people that choose dangerous jobs get paid justly and that their safety is maximally ensured. I can't tell if this is the case, but if it isn't then that would be a sign of men being treated "unfairly", being seen as disposable etc. If anybody has data on this feel free to share!

meeselbon573 · 2018-11-25T12:26:58+00:00

Men are under more pressure to earn. Sources of this pressure can be explicit (like you would get thrown in jail if you fall behind in child support) or implicit (you want love and validation and to not be a loser).

quasirealikecreature · 2018-11-25T12:41:07+00:00

Honestly, I'd rather work long hours doing strenuous things than be a stay at home mom. I say this as a stay at home mom. I previously had a job where I had to be on my feet 10 hours a day, didn't get a break and would often work alone, sometimes in really cold conditions. I could push myself to do it because 1.) Money 2.) Seeing tasks completed and writing them off gave a sense of purpose. Now I'm forcing myself to do this because it's best for the kid, but it's so much worse.

bonusfruit · 2018-11-25T14:27:48+00:00

MRAs do not claim oppression. That's a feminist term, not a MRA term. The argument is simply that workplace fatalities are one of many mens issues. It's a plea to focus on safety and vaulting mens lives more, nothing to do with women or even related to the usual battles with feminism.

czerdec · 2018-11-25T14:33:00+00:00

Depends what you mean by fair.

Do you believe in the Golden Rule?

How much money would it take for you to take a scary risk, in a way that isn't fun, and mixes the fear with boredom that comes from routine? Being a prison guard, for instance (unless you would enjoy that. Assume that it's something dangerous you don't derive pleasure from).

Imagine the sum of money that would cause you to do that job for a month. Is that sum more than the typical guy doing that shit job makes in real life?

For most Americans, the honest answer to this thought experiment is that they wouldn't do that job for the salary offered. So an application of the Golden Rule tells us that they are not being paid the rate of compensation that most people find appropriate for that task.

Mad_Luddite · 2018-11-25T15:20:15+00:00

This is pretty much true. Biological factors, like men being larger and less risk-averse, are the primary reasons. MRAs who think that it is due to discrimination are simply wrong.

abaxeron · 2018-11-25T15:36:18+00:00

Thus the fact that most casualties on the job are male casualties is moot. The men choose these jobs of their own volition. In the same way that it is not society's fault that women make less on the dollar, it is not society's fault that men suffer more workplace casualties.

Paraphrased:

"Women who can afford to work less thanks to the state that will keep their lifestyle afloat at men's expense -

is just the same as men who cannot afford to work less, because of the state, that forces them to keep women's lifestyle afloat;

therefore, men are not oppressed."

Sorry, but your argument is self-defeating.

Men and women on the job market are not independent agents. For every woman who takes part-time cushy office job and earns 77 cents for a dollar, there is a man who closes the gaps in her personal budget - either a husband, an ex-husband, or a father.

imjgaltstill · 2018-11-25T15:38:23+00:00

Men's rights activists frequently make the claim that men are oppressed

No they are making the point that the caterwauling of feminists is absurd.

dejour · 2018-11-25T16:23:45+00:00

Well, the idea is that if we use outcomes to determine who is ~~oppressed~~ disadvantaged then this one metric where men are disadvantaged. Men are more likely to die on the job. Women are more likely to make less money.

It's plausible to believe that both outcomes could arise if everyone is judged as an individual but men and women tend to have different traits and interests:

men being more physically capable and therefore better hires for some jobs
men and women having different interests and desires
men feeling a greater need to make more money in order to attract a mate than women
men being more prepared to move or commute long distances to find the highest-paying job

Sure, you could say that men don't have it unfair due to more deaths on the job. But then, to be logically consistent you better at least be very open to the possibility that women don't have it unfair due to the 77 cent statistic.

These two stats play in to each other. If women are choosing a job that pays less in order to be safe, then you'd expect more men to die but men to earn more - even in a world without sexist employers.

Then you will have people who argue that, ok, women "choose" to work in lower-paying fields, but that's due to sexism in how people were raised. And that's plausible. But again, the point is that if you are logically consistent, you can argue that people raise girls to believe that their safety is a priority and boys not to believe that their safety is a priority. You could plausibly argue that boys are suffering sexism as they are raised - that people don't care about their health and safety.

no_delay1 · 2018-11-25T16:27:48+00:00

https://scholar.harvard.edu/bolotnyy/publications/why-do-women-earn-less-men-evidence-bus-and-train-operators-job-market-paper

darla10 · 2018-11-25T16:59:37+00:00

Men take more risks than women, no matter the job. The recent Uber study is fascinating. I think radiolab or freakonimics did a whole podcast on it. Men die more because thy are less risk adverse.

krishnoo · 2018-11-25T17:22:17+00:00

> men are more physically capable for these jobs.

Fine, then shut up about women's sports teams.

> work/life balance skewed towards work

No actually men's work/life balance is skewed towards women.

SimulatedEnvironment · 2018-11-25T17:28:36+00:00

So your argument is that men can’t complain about having high casualty jobs because they chose those but women are allowed to complain about earning less because they chose their jobs and choose to work less hours?

PanderjitSingh_k · 2018-11-25T17:35:27+00:00

Those are real people being maimed & killed. Rather than blaming the victims society ought to be working to reduce work place injuries. This happens because men are considered disposable.

[deleted] · 2018-11-25T20:12:25+00:00

Thus the fact that most casualties on the job are male casualties is moot. The men choose these jobs of their own volition. In the same way that it is not society's fault that women make less on the dollar, it is not society's fault that men suffer more workplace casualties.

Change the feminist views first.
The fact that they get to b%&ch about getting less money for less work while men can't bi&^h about getting maimed or even dying in higher rates and have to "man up".

Also, safety protocols. When women bring unsafe work practices to light, it gets fixed. When men do it, they get fired.

Willow-girl · 2018-11-25T22:33:07+00:00

Thus the fact that most casualties on the job are male casualties is moot. The men choose these jobs of their own volition.

I'd add that women also are more risk-adverse, and are probably more cautious even when doing dangerous jobs.

I work in agriculture and I've seen men get hurt when they tried to do something like jump out in front of a charging cow to stop it. They overestimate their abilities and wind up in trouble as a result.

On a similar note, men often use brute strength to accomplish certain tasks simply because they can, but doing so takes a toll on their bodies, and it's also possible something will go wrong. (Like maybe you're carrying something that was too heavy to begin with, then you slip on mud or ice and wind up injuring your back.) Probably male pride and the reluctance to ask others for help factors into the equation. Women tend to take a "work smarter, not harder" approach by using leverage or teamwork to accomplish tasks they can't do on their own thanks to less upper body strength.

beachredwhine · 2018-11-25T10:25:57+00:00

Most normal men take a job like that, I have a job like that, because we love and appreciate women, and our women take upon themselves the also incredibly difficult though much less dangerous job of mother.

We want to provide for a mother, and not a single mother to cuck us. And so we do, find the mother.

After ruining other girls by also making them a mother, for kids we do not commit to.

This is simply life as at always was, love as it always has been, and winners always win, and losers always lose. Even with child support pushed from the loser guys.

SimulatedEnvironment · 2018-11-25T11:17:47+00:00

Again a feminist. These people cannot stop veing wrong?

men are more physically capable for these jobs

I did not know that being physically strong had any difference in the way you smell poisonous things or how it avoids dust from entering yohr lungs.

AlwaysResist · 2018-11-25T16:04:00+00:00

WOmen Choose jobs that Pay LEss!! Why don't women Choose careers that are high paying!! Why are such fields as social work, human resources and teachers occupied mostly by women? Why would any human pursue work that is known to not have high pay and then complain that others are earning more? Perhaps women need to pursue jobs that have the highest pay regardless of what they are. If they can not be as competitive as the other applicants which include men, they need to work on making themselves more competitive.

As is always the case, women do everything without logic. Women are more concerned with satisfying there constant need for self validation and put other things like personal finance second.

Complaining that men earn more is just that, a compliment!! Women need to complain because its another way of satisfying there constant need for self validation!!

Title	CMV: High casualty jobs being primarily occupied by men is not evidence that men have it unfair
Author	newimprovement
Upvotes	15
Comments	180
Date	November 25, 2018 7:16 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/a06lxp/cmv_high_casualty_jobs_being_primarily_occupied/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-high-casualty-jobs-being-primarily-occupied-by.258888 https://theredarchive.com/post/258888

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