When did we turn from men ruling civilizations into boys don't know how to do anything?

umeme · 2017-04-27T23:57:07+00:00

Did women in ancient dominating civilizations or empires think their men were stupid lazy shit heads? Did this shift really happen in the 20th century or were...

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Oh look, found the history rewriting feminist. Women were not much better than cattle for a long long time. Men fought wars, killed all other men and then traded the spoils of war (women).

Have men always needed women for the future of the race? Yes. Did women have a say in what was happening to them? Mostly no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wartime_sexual_violence

In ancient Rome, for example, women could not attend, speak in, or vote at political assemblies and were prohibited from holding any position of political responsibility.

Even the more advanced civilizations did not treat women much better than cattle or small children.

The only real female-dominated profession in ancient Rome (and many other ancient cultures) aside from hawking was in prostitution.

http://bebusinessed.com/history/history-of-women-in-the-workforce/

Go read more third wave feminism instead of real books.

[–]lynx_and_nutmeg1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Look who's rewriting history...

The past is not a monolith. There's one one single "Past(™)", or one single "Society(™)" spanning the whole world where all women had exactly the same status and rights all the way up to XX century. It's not true now (e.g women lead very different lives in Canada versus Afghanistan), it wasn't true back then either.

No, women were definitely not seen as cattle everywhere in all societies throughout all the history until XX. That's actually as much of a mistake most feminists make, as Red Pillers. Remember that most history books were written by white men, and they were not exactly unbiased. Most early anthropologists were also men. They tended to see male dominance everywhere simply because they could not even imagine an alternative society. Women and men usually had different roles, but this belief that men's roles are always superior while women's roles always inferior is in itself a view born from misogyny.

And, wartime sexual violence, really? I guess you think men and boys were treated like princes by their enemies? If anybody was treated like cattle, it was all those men and boys who were forced into war as cannon fodder. Women were simply killed or raped (and, in fact, many men were raped too, history just often omits it because it goes against traditional gendered framework

In ancient Rome, for example, women could not attend, speak in, or vote at political assemblies and were prohibited from holding any position of political responsibility.

Yes, they were not allowed into politics. However, they had no military obligations either. They were still allowed the same economical power and had most of the same rights as men, and even more religious power in some cases. You must have skipped that part.

But i'm not going to copy and paste literally the whole history of the world of all societies to you here. You're welcome to believe whatever you want to believe. A few examples, though:

http://www.pitlanemagazine.com/ethnicity-and-gender/the-role-of-women-in-minoan-culture.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jan/18/india-khasi-women-politics-bouissou

https://lauravaleri.com/2013/05/23/the-role-of-women-in-ancient-sumer/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_ancient_Egypt#Women_playing_an_official_role_at_the_highest_levels

http://womenpla.net/tuareg-the-mysterious-tribe-where-men-wear-veils-and-women-lead-the-family/

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I have 4 kids. One daughter, three sons. So I can say I'm experienced when it comes to raising kids.

Being a strong father means showing them how to be a man. There are definite rights and wrongs that I believe in and providing a good example of a healthy relationship with my wife is an important of example of what I am talking about. I am the man of the house. I'm old school and it takes a lot of stress off my wife when I make the decisions.

Yes, we talk and discuss things like any normal healthy married couple would but when it comes to final say, I own it. Knowing our places in the relationship shows my kids the importance of taking ownership of things you commit to. I am committed to my family and taking masculine ownership of it. My wife and I don't fight because we know our roles and the nagging and bickering that is associated with women doesn't exist in my relationship because my wife knows I'm handling my shit. She feels safe with me and therefore doesn't need to what we in RP call "shit test" me.

But video games and comics are fine. That's not soft shit. I read comics. Soft shit is being overly emotional and dramatic when things don't go their way. Soft shit is letting other kids walk all over them or, especially for my boys, think it's ok for women to act shitty just because they like them. Soft shit is thinking play comes before work and not knowing the value of discipline.

Dads don't own their roles anymore, for their wives or their kids. Not me. I fucked my life up when I was younger because my parents didn't own their parenting and I made a lot of stupid mistakes because I was a kid and didn't know any better.

[–]faunatical0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for your perspective, and I am glad that you were able to get out of a crappy upbringing and build what sounds like a pretty cool household.

I guess I'm just not clear on what it is exactly that a Red Pill dad would do that my dad wouldn't have done. For example, here's something my dad would definitely agree with:

Soft shit is being overly emotional and dramatic when things don't go their way. Soft shit is letting other kids walk all over them, or think it's ok for people to act shitty just because you think they're your friend. Soft shit is thinking play comes before work and not knowing the value of discipline.

I have a hard time seeing what's gendered about it... if not these, what kind of values and habits do you hope to instill in your daughter?

when it comes to final say, I own it.

I'm pretty sure there's a lot more nuance here than the statement leads on. I'm not sure if you smoke cigarettes, so this might be a bad example. But for the sake of example, let's say you don't. If you started smoking and wanted to smoke, would your wife be unable to convince you otherwise?

[–]beywesley2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, my wife wouldn't stop me from doing what I want to do. I'm an adult who works 60-70 hours a week to bring home the cake. She knows that. But I don't smoke and she quit when we started dating and now eats healthy and does a lot of yoga. I work out and stay fit, but I also go out drinking at least once a week by myself because I need some alone time. I never hear any crap about it because she treats me like her man, not like a boy. I would not have married a woman who insisted on mothering me.

My influence on my daughter will help her have self respect so she knows her value and doesn't fall for some loser. Being a good role model of what a man is is the best way to keep your daughter on track. I keep her in check just like I do my boys.

I just know my father took his insecurities out on his family instead of facing them himself and his way of raising me and his relationship with my mom was toxic. Love him to death (he passed away a few years ago) but he put a lot of shit on me that I had to face when I got older and I swore never to do that to my kids. So part of it is owning your place in the world which RP teaches. Not the "fuck women" yada yada shit but the foundation of truth that if you want to sleep with a lot of women, you need to become the kind of man women want to sleep with.

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It's a double edged sword. Society is rapidly going in a direction that contradicts human nature. Women's privilege and benefits are greater than ever while at society has also convinced them that they are living under some kind of oppression. Men ultimately gave them these privileges and society as a whole enjoys relative safety that was built on the backs of men. But now that society is built and the safety net allows even the weakest of us to live long enough to breed, the need for masculinity has seemingly dwindled.

But society simply cannot sustain itself without that masculinity. It's the foundation upon which society is built, the laws of nature that only the strongest survive. And by strongest, we mean the ones who can inflict the most damage onto those who wish to see a society destroyed or subdued.

So if we keep going in this direction, masculinity will either be culled completely and men will no longer be able to defend their society, or a shift in societal views will recognize the need for strong men, and the society will adapt to view them as the saviors of said society.

I doubt it will be the latter and I do not want to be around when that reality rears its ugly head.

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TV, supermarkets, movies, DVDs, Blu-rays, Netflix, wall-to-wall sports, video games, Internet, millions of books widely available, every song every recorded available to you at the click of a button, alcohol on tap (and recreational drugs if you're that way inclined), any food you can possibly name readily available in multiple ways, more recreational opportunities than we've ever had, more shopping choices than you can possibly ever explore, if you can't be bothered to go out you can get stuff sent to your house sometimes even the same day, travel both domestic and international widely available, the opportunity for even people of modest means to experience almost any culture or nation.

Who needs power? If you ask me, the people with power are wasting their lives. They spend their wholes lives chasing more and more and more, and then one day they realise they're going to die and they can't take their power and wealth and achievements with them.

Luckily, I realised this when I was about 12 and decided to be a lazy bum from then on.

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You're channelling Trainspotting here ain't ya?

Choose life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose a three-piece suite on hire purchase in a range of fucking fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life.

More interestingly, when I did a quick google to get that quote, I stumbled across this article about the sequel titled "Trainspotting in a touch-feely age: how T2 captures the change in men over the past 20 years" which seems super relevant ITT:

Now, of course, the manly culture that permeated that time feels critically out of step.

Indeed, laddism, loaded, and lager lager lager are all strongly frowned upon in these more sensitive times. And Renton, Sick Boy, Spud, and Begbie, redrawn and forced into the 21st Century, reflect as much.

Renton, who once filled the gaping holes in his life with skag, now fills them with exercise and brief fantasies about having the perfect family life.

Meanwhile, the wideboy charm and dark edge which made Sick Boy so dangerous and sexy in 1996, now recasts him as seedy, pathetic, and misogynistic – a man so incapable of clambering out of the past that he can’t function or assimilate into normal society without cranking himself up on cocaine.

Spud, once a speed and smack-addled puppy dog, has become self-aware, channeling his troubled inner-self through creativity.

And the psychopathic Begbie – who became the literal poster boy of ‘90s lad culture, and would have gladly glassed any of the above soft-boys 20 years ago – finds himself figuratively and literally impotent in the modern world, perplexed by the very notion that his own son has chosen a career in hotel management over burgling houses and cracking skulls.

Begbie’s addiction to ultra-violence terrified and excited us back then, but now he's undergoing man-therapy and facing the demons that lurk at his dark, surprisingly sensitive core. It's as though director Danny Boyle imbues in this one character the extremes of behaviour that men have gone through over the past 20 years: from the bar brawl era to the age of touchy feel self-improvement. What better symbol for modern masculinity could you find?

[–]wub12340 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, it wasn't actually deliberately like that, but I did think myself that it was quite similar to that passage. A great novel. However, I choose to take a positive take on it. There is so much to enjoy in life, we don't ever have to be bored or short of things to do, every day can be different.

The problem is that people, including myself in the past, seek meaning in life, when life is ultimately quite meaningless. Don't seek goals or targets or meaning, just enjoy it.

Regarding the article, one of the passages I remember from the book, I can't remember if it's in the film, is the one where Sick Boy states that you basically have a time of peak performance as a man, and then after that you're fucked. And I think that's a problem for lots of guys, they're very nostalgic about when they were younger, and think the minor decline that you go through is emasculating.

I have never had that problem because I wasn't happy when I was 21! I was pretty alienated, I didn't know what my place in the world was, I couldn't see anything I could do to make money that would be anything other than excruciating for me. I was really quite miserable. So I don't have this nostalgic, misty-eyed view of the past, in fact I don't even like to think about the time before the Internet was popularised! That saved me because it got me out of the rat race.

It's funny, though, because I grew up in the Britpop years, and if I see another documentary that goes on about what a wonderful, optimistic time it was and how everyone felt really positive because Oasis came out then I will go mad! What a load of bollocks; people lead their own individual lives that are not dictated by what the media deems the fashion and culture of the time to be. I wasn't happy, optimistic or positive at the time, although I did like Definitely Maybe.

[–]GroovyEFS 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

However, I choose to take a positive take on it. There is so much to enjoy in life, we don't ever have to be bored or short of things to do, every day can be different.

I agree, and ultimately that was the message really. At the end he did choose life.

The problem is that people, including myself in the past, seek meaning in life, when life is ultimately quite meaningless. Don't seek goals or targets or meaning, just enjoy it.

Yep agreed 100%. Expecting life to have any kind of inherent meaning is the path to misery imo.

the one where Sick Boy states that you basically have a time of peak performance as a man, and then after that you're fucked.

https://youtu.be/a94jraWNG-g

I have never had that problem because I wasn't happy when I was 21! I was pretty alienated, I didn't know what my place in the world was, I couldn't see anything I could do to make money that would be anything other than excruciating for me.

Mostly the same here and I'm around that age now, here's to hoping the future is better...

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FIY, Iceland had something like this in 1975. 90% of the country's woman abandoned all of their duties (both at home and at work) and went out into the streets to protest. The consequences were abysmal, the whole country basically shut down. And that was just one day.

And today there are more women in the workforce than back in 1975.

Countries like Sweden already have almost 50% of women in the government, some countries even more than 50%. As I said, in some regions like sub-Saharan Africa women produce most of the food. Society would definitely collapse very quickly without most medical help. Tons of children would die without having nobody to take care of them (both kindergarten and other childcare workers and mothers at home). Your clothes are made by women in Asia working in textile and clothing factories for 14-16 hours a day. If you think clothing is inessential, try going outside during winter naked in any region with a climate from temperate to arctic, or dessert climate at night, see how long you'd stay alive. Most of morticians and other funeral workers are women. What do you think if nobody dealt with dead people? That's how the whole cities got wiped out in the past, you know. And women are involved in many other various pressing jobs in food production and power too. There are more men in the menial jobs in those fields, but lots of women in administrative level. Social work is also dominated by women. I know it's considered lowly and useless (that's why it's so poorly paid), but remember that it's social workers who deal with homeless people, and often with criminals or near-criminals.

Don't underestimate the importance of women in society. Although, men have been doing it for centuries, so it's not exactly surprising.

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If women all quit, shit gets bad, very bad, immediately. Immediately. Much sooner than if men quit.

My area recently flooded and no one could get in or out. We and streets and streets of neighbours had no electricity for 3 weeks. No men were doing any jobs here, because they couldn't, apart from the same jobs the women were doing. Guess what? We all survived just fine.

I argued that civilization relies on men, exists because of men, and exists today on the shoulders of men.

women developed a far richer language, upon which civilisation rests. It's the bedrock.
women gathered most of the food in prehistoric times and started agriculture.
the vast amount of men that ever lived in civilised places were either dogsbodies, soldiers or used as slaves. Most women were dogsbodies, poor and raising kids. Only a few men ruled over the others - and those men had wives, mothers and sisters guiding them.
- I'm not arguing that men aren't vital to run our society today. But if they all stopped doing their job, women would step up. Enough women are working in all fields for society to continue - though it would be at a limp compared to before because there wouldn't be enough of them. But if all women stopped doing their job (becoming pregnant, raising babies etc) everything would grind to a halt.

[–]trpobservereats ass0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Guess what? We all survived just fine.

The speed at which bad things happen depends on location.

But if all women stopped doing their job (becoming pregnant, raising babies etc) everything would grind to a halt.

The human race ≠ civilization. You can have humans without civilization.

those men had wives, mothers and sisters guiding them

A very broad, often untrue, statement.

the vast amount of men that ever lived in civilised places were either dogsbodies...

Yeah, that civilization existed because of the dogsbodies.

women gathered most of the food in prehistoric times and started agriculture.

[Citation needed]

women developed a far richer language, upon which civilisation rests. It's the bedrock.

[Citation needed]

But if they all stopped doing their job, women would step up

I can't predict what would happen. But as it stands, civilization rests on the shoulders of men.

Only a few men ruled over the others

Civilization isn't about the ruler, its about the plumber.

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Title	When did we turn from men ruling civilizations into boys don't know how to do anything?
Author	umeme
Upvotes	8
Comments	176
Date	April 27, 2017 11:57 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/67zkmh/when_did_we_turn_from_men_ruling_civilizations/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/when-did-we-turn-from-men-ruling-civilizations.268572 https://theredarchive.com/post/268572

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