Question for both pills, mostly blue - do you think creep-shaming is fair in the context in which men are still expected to approach and initiate?

monster_strapon · 2016-08-30T23:37:22+00:00

This is really dependent on the situation. Being approached by a stranger is generally just uncomfortable regardless of whether you're male or female. Yeah, sometimes people (not just women; I've been approached by gay men) are unnecessarily harsh on the approacher because the situation was just uncomfortable for them despite the approacher being polite. Other times the approacher just acted creepy and make the situation more awkward by lacking game.

You can be good-looking and still creepy.

sublimemongrel · 2016-08-30T23:49:03+00:00

I don't find the conduct in the linked post particularly creepy-- annoying and obnoxious perhaps, but creepy? No. Maybe it's a generational thing, but I don't find it "creepy" that a guy would approach you requesting to chit chat in a public place, even if he (gasp) goes so far as to ask you to pay attention to him.

As for your OP, I do not have an issue with judging a creep as a creep if he's legitimately a creep. It's clearly a subjective judgment which is possibly one reason why so many on this sub appear to have a problem with it. But as we bloops have brought up several times before - it frequently depends on him pushing boundaries in a socially inappropriate manner which reasonable minds could agree could cause feelings of unease or even fear. Strategies that meet that criteria should be judged accordingly.

That being said, I do agree it's unfair to expect men to approach and then repeatedly bash any attempt made by them to do so. But keep in mind it's the manner of approach that makes something creepy, not the approaching in and of itself (well, at least for women like me that believe in the above definition). So yes, generally I agree that one should perhaps take a step back and truly think before making a quick judgment - but I'd suggest that before making judgments in general, not just whether a man is "creepy."

SampsonBrass · 2016-08-31T01:17:44+00:00

And what, exactly, happens to you if someone thinks you are a creep or actually calls you one? What exactly? What is the actual impact of this "shame?" You soil your pull ups?

SpaceWhiskey · 2016-08-31T05:17:49+00:00

I don't think it's wrong to be annoyed by someone who ignores me wearing headphones. It's pretty rude to have the attitude of "Hey you're already doing something and you don't know me, but I'm now telling you to stop because I want to talk to you and that's more important than whatever you were already doing." The dude's instructions in his article are incredibly cringey and presumptuous. His attitude towards interacting with women wearing headphones is creepy. It's creepy that he's put this much thought into it, it's creepy the way he writes out the expected encounter with his over-the-top "aw shucks" vibe and his assumptions that she will be flattered by being interrupted. This sort of attitude that women are a puzzle or require a guide is creepy.

Of course, not all women are open to being approached because not all women are single and looking.

Or maybe she just doesn't feel like talking to someone, especially considering lots of women, myself included, wear headphones specifically to avoid social interaction when out in public. Single women are allowed to want to be left alone. I'm not single now but I've always done this, whether or not I'm currently dating someone.

Is she hasn’t already looked up at you, simply get her attention with a wave of your hand. Wave your hand in her direct line of vision so she can’t ignore it.

I bolded the creepy part. Not giving someone an out is creepy. Forcing people to interact and making it so they can't politely decline from the get go is creepy.

When she looks at you, smile and point to her headphones and say, “Take off your headphones for a minute” and pretend to be taking headphones off your head, so she fully understands.

This is so condescending. If you're waving I get it, you're trying to talk to me. You don't need to mime taking the headphones off, all that does it rub me further the wrong way.

If she doesn’t understand (most women will), simply gesture that you want to talk to her by briefly pointing back and forth from you to her and say, “I want to talk to you for a minute.”

Or maybe her "not understanding" is her trying to politely display her disinterest and you continuing to force the issue is really creepy.

In most cases, you won’t have to go to that extreme, but some girls are shy and will be hesitant to take the headphones off right away because they are feeling a lot of nervousness and excitement about what is happening.

Or maybe her "shyness" is a lack of interest. This is just... god no wonder the comments over there are so "venomous" as you describe. Reading this is pushing all my buttons that make me lose my patience with someone.

He even recognizes that he's violating a potential intentionally chosen social barrier when he says this:

Headphones are a great barrier between a person and the rest of the world.

And then he immediately stomps all over it.

That being said, if a guy wants to get a woman’s attention he needs to show confidence by being determined to get her to stop listening to the music and chat to him to him.

Look, I get it. In general, men are expected by a lot of women to do the approaching. But when a woman has taken the effort to do something that most polite, socialized people understand is a "don't talk to me" signal, ignoring it and demanding she pay attention to you anyway is indeed super creepy.

OfSpock · 2016-08-31T00:58:25+00:00

So, we'll assume that red pill is right and no man has ever been creepy. Then the problem is that they're ugly and hitting on girls who are attractive. Don't they want to know this? Do they want to have to force someone to interact with them? Do they want to have to bully the woman into a date? Isn't 'be the prize' part of red pills mantra? If you were alpha enough (or Zyzz) wouldn't she voluntarily take her earphones out?

XXYukieXX · 2016-08-30T23:42:10+00:00

If I have my headphones in, you better stay the fuck away from me unless it's something urgent.

"These unfortunate guys who dare approach a woman that clearly doesn't want to be bothered" fuck out my face.

There are better times to approach than when someone is trying to get in their zone and escape people's bullshit.

cuittler · 2016-08-30T23:47:42+00:00

This is as simple as I can possibly make it:

You hit on someone, they are into it and reciprocate = not a creep.

You hit on someone, they decline or give off "no thanks" body language and you back off = not a creep.

You hit on someone, they decline or give off "no thanks" body language and you keep hitting on them = creep.

Littleknownfacts · 2016-08-30T23:25:19+00:00

I'm all for creep shaming, and fat shaming, and all the other shamey shamings you can think of. Because ultimately it keeps society in line. If men are expected to approach, let them learn to do it in a way that is non-shame inducing. For their sake and ours!

Matthew_Cline · 2016-08-31T01:26:33+00:00

It isn't the "approach a woman with headphones" that generates the venom, but the things like "don't let her ignore you" and "don't let her gain control of the encounter".

prodigy2throw · 2016-08-30T23:09:51+00:00

Creep shaming is code for ugly-men shaming.

mistixs · 2016-08-31T00:43:00+00:00

Someone made a good point that if we keep shaming men for approaching women, then the good respectful men will listen and stop approaching, but the douchebags will continue approaching, and then women will wonder where all the good men are.

ScarletNumbers · 2016-08-31T07:50:14+00:00

Well they are breaking the rules

1) Be handsome 2) Be attractive 3) Don't be unattractive

Master_of_Ritual · 2016-08-31T08:15:04+00:00

I looked through that thread, didn't see much venom. Groupthink yes, venom no. The problem with that kind of discourse is it makes sensitive and hyper-scrupulous men afraid of women. I've struggled with the same thing, but we can't let ourselves be swayed so thoroughly. If we can recognize internet bluster and hyperbole for what it is, and just be mindful of social realities and respectful of women, we'll be fine.

[deleted] · 2016-08-31T11:25:51+00:00

those unfortunate guys who dare bother a woman by approaching while she's wearing headphones.

Am a male and if anyone distrubed me while I was wearing headphones I'd be pissed off. I'd also be expecting whoever it was to be socially inept for missing such an obvious "I don't want to fucking socialise" sign.

Only once has anyone disturbed me while I was wearing headphones. It was some weird fat guy who kept going on and on at me about how much money he gets from the government because of his disabilities. Couldn't even get away because I was waiting for my fucking bus.

I was a little scared in that situation cuz it was the middle of the night and this guy was obviously a weirdo, I definitely would not blame a woman for feeling the same way.

0/10 would not recommend conversing with people who talk to you when you have headphones on.

As a man, you have to put yourself out there. If you don't, you will be alone forever, because most girls/women simply will not initiate anything.

Yeah but, like it or not, it's also your responsibility to learn how to do that in a socially acceptable manner. Disturbing random women with headphones on is unlikely to be successful for you so why even bother? And that's just looking at it from a pure self-interest perspective.

GridReXX · 2016-08-31T17:22:01+00:00

Do you think slut shaming is fair considering day in and day out women are pressured or begged for sex ?

I always found it unfair that a guy will spend copious amounts of effort to get a woman to sleep with him, then call her a slut to his friends after she does.

Life is unfair.

Y'all going to think women are unfit for marriage after you sleep with them.

Women are going to think you're off putting if you approach her off puttingly.

InBaggingArea · 2016-08-30T23:39:40+00:00

You are, of course, quite right in everything you say, except when you say "these days". You made me smile. This has been happening for as long as anyone reading has been alive.

It should go without saying that some women will respond favorably to Ben's approach tactics, otherwise simple market forces would render it unprofitable and extinct.

Women instinctively use indifference or even antagonism in these scenarios as a way of testing male strength and insubordination. Perversely, it is men who do as the author suggests and "sod off" who fail the test.

Stand back and look at this from a disengaged perspective. Think about the effect of this kind of intervention in public discourse.

The effect is to preserve the power of women in these scenarios and importantly to construe their power as legitimate.

It's never enough for a person to have power. They need also to succeed in convincing themselves and others that their power is legitimate, because without that sense of legitimacy, in the same way that leaving your door unlocked at night leaves you nervous you may be robbed in your sleep, so possessing power without legitimacy leaves you feeling nervous you will lose the power or that it will be challenged.

caesarfecit · 2016-08-31T02:24:18+00:00

Tbh, creep-shaming most of the time has the same connotations of double-standard as male slut-shaming. It's obviously hypocritical to expect women to be sexually open and in touch with themselves, but only have that sexuality expressed in a way men are comfortable with. That doesn't give women license to fuck around or be an embarrassment, but you don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

I think the same logic applies in this case.

InBaggingArea · 2016-09-01T11:55:16+00:00

Best reply:

Do they want to have to force someone to interact with them? Do they want to have to bully the woman into a date?

No, but they also know that if they don't initiate, or at least try, that they're very, very unlikely to find anyone. Because women don't have the same societal expectation to initiate, they are left with having to initiate. Instead, the men who give zero shits, they get rewarded. As a result, we're also rewarding the guys that get good at initiating, through lots of repeated practice, and those guys are going to be more inclined to be the pump-and-dump by the nature of how pump-and-dump is looking for someone new on the regular rather than just one good partner.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/50e08h/question_for_both_pills_mostly_blue_do_you_think/d744qga

Leeloooooooooooooooo · 2016-08-31T02:17:14+00:00

Too long; didn't read.

But, the reality is that you shouldn't talk to a girl with headphones unless she has given you IOIs already. It won't end well, especially doing the stupid shit this Dan Bacon fool suggests.

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kragshot · 2016-08-31T17:09:54+00:00

First off, there is some degree of misconception regarding the headphone thing. I'm reading here that women wear headphones to shut out outside/social interaction. Most guys wear headphones because a) we want to listen to music, b) we are in a situation where listening to the aforementioned music out loud would be inconsiderate/not allowed, or c) to just pass the time. Books on the bus follow the same thing. I have no problem with stopping for social interaction.

Now with that being said, I have to paraphrase a Chris Rock routine regarding women...the one where he says that "...I can understand how women can get tired of guys...they have been offering her dick since she was thirteen. 'Can I get the door for you (How about some dick)?' 'Do you need me to carry that for you (Would you like some dick)?' 'Are you up for dinner (And some dick for cocktails)?'"

Nobody has a problem with a clear and concise "no." But the problem is that "no," "yes," or even "maybe" is never as "clear and concise" as everyone makes it out to be. I personally can't count the number of times where I took no for no and ended up later discovering that I missed out because "I walked away so, I must not have really wanted it." If these women had been culturally indoctrinated to be direct and open about their desires, then I would have stayed in touch with them.

So many men have been taught that "no might mean maybe" by women and society that now when more and more women actually mean "no," it is causing a cultural problem with dating in western society. And right now, the current solutions are only causing a broader rift between men and women.

Noxin__Nixon · 2016-08-31T19:33:06+00:00

Creeps like dan ciley should be called out at every opportunity for being creeps because they are. 99.9% of the men i have seen called creepy have been called creepy because they were acting creepy as fuck. Its a TRP BS myth that average dudes hitting on girls in normal manner get called creeps.

sofcknwrong · 2016-09-01T16:11:38+00:00

Why is anyone approaching women with headphones in a non-social public setting anyway? It's creep-level PUA stuff that belongs in romantic comedies, not in big overcrowded city environments where normal people are just trying to get from A to B safely and quickly.

Go to a pub or a concert, where people expect to be approached and might be more open to it. If RP poster-boy Brad Pitt started carpet-bombing attractive women at bus stops or a city square at lunchtime, he's going to get creep-shamed almost as much as some awkward PUA. Maybe more so because he's 52 fucking years old. Jesus H.

caesarfecit · 2016-08-31T01:09:56+00:00

WTF is this thread? You want bonus points or partial credit for initiating a date? No, it does not work that way.

Ask her once. If she is not interested, respect her by not pestering her any more. No creepiness.

This isn't college math you guys.

InBaggingArea · 2016-08-30T23:44:18+00:00

Why doesn't she lecture the women who respond favorably to this kind of approach? If there weren't such women the strategy would fail due to simple market forces.

DarkLord0chinChin · 2016-08-31T08:56:46+00:00

[deleted]

DarkLord0chinChin · 2016-08-31T10:32:27+00:00

Come to our cool creeps club, no girls allowed!

[deleted] · 2016-08-31T11:40:16+00:00

Yes, if you get triggered by a woman calling you a creep, you're a bit of a pussy.

stone_opera · 2016-08-31T09:50:41+00:00

I love this; it's so hypocritical and sad. If you're having trouble hitting on girls, stop being a creep on the internet and go join a club or something. There are literally thousands of things you could be doing right now, that aren't creepy, to meet a girl; but no, you'd rather just be creepy and alone on the internet. Good job dude, so alpha!

Title	Question for both pills, mostly blue - do you think creep-shaming is fair in the context in which men are still expected to approach and initiate?
Author	SlashCo80
Upvotes	17
Comments	278
Date	August 30, 2016 11:03 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/50e08h/question_for_both_pills_mostly_blue_do_you_think/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/question-for-both-pills-mostly-blue-do-you-think.273314 https://theredarchive.com/post/273314

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