To a lot of people marriage still means complete and total commitment, and anyone who thinks it’s worthless is the outlier.

Mr_Smoogs · 2019-11-12T14:28:46+00:00

Divorce existing is proof that marriage is not the ultimate form of commitment

Barely-moral · 2019-11-12T12:52:54+00:00

As long as divorce is an option then marriage is not complete and total commitment.

The main reason I refuse to marry is because marriage as it is today creates a perverse incentive structure that either rewards the people in it for failing to keep the relationship alive (getting assets in a divorce) or just doesn't punish the parties responsible for failing to keep the relationship alive.

Complete and total commitment... that is laughable. If there is a way out other than death then it isn't complete nor total nor commitment.

Dora_Bowl · 2019-11-12T12:30:24+00:00

For most people the benefits outweigh the risks.

The point is that:

1) A lot of these men think the benefits do not outweigh the risks personally.

2) They think a lot of men are delusional about the value they assign to marriage and if they understood it properly, it does not actually benefit most men. You can think of a case where someone has a good luck charm or some strange ritual and they think it benefits them, but it actually does nothing or has a detrimental affect.

3) Detractors of marriage do not think it is actually a commitment because someone can walk away without losing almost anything(in this case the woman). You can notice marriage detractors often describe it as collecting "cash and prizes".

If you don’t want marriage, you’re the outlier not the people who want to marry.

Reiterating my above point slightly, I believe the detractors do agree they are not the norm and outliers, but they do think that getting married is a bad deal for men, even if they want it.

goneaway2thewind · 2019-11-12T12:25:24+00:00

Most people are idiots, doesn't mean I have to be one

Dinkleburgsrevenge · 2019-11-12T14:26:21+00:00

Most men know they can't get anyone else, and the woman gives an ultimatum that amounts to "put a ring on this sausage link I call a finger, or I bounce".

jax006 · 2019-11-12T14:37:41+00:00

Maybe. I wonder how broad this group of "outliers" is becoming though. Just a few weeks ago I was pretty surprised when we basically had a 8-person census while out for beersw/coworkers and literally all of us had the opinion that marriage was a bad idea especially without a prenup. I think it's a growing sentiment.

M4sterDis4ster · 2019-11-12T16:08:42+00:00

I think what these people miss is that to most people, id say 90 percent- marriage is the ultimate form of commitment.

50%+ get divorced, 70% divorces are initiated by women. 90% are what ?

Maybe it’s religious, maybe it’s tradition, maybe they’re dumb. Either way, it’s a staple of society. Men do it too despite all the MRAs screaming about wahmen and alimony. If you don’t want marriage, you’re the outlier not the people who want to marry.

Yes, marriage is a staple of society, but it doesnt mean it is still used as such. There is more unwed and childless men than ever in human history.

30% is already a significant portion rather than outlier.

whibbleymoondanc · 2019-11-12T13:16:33+00:00

If you think marriage is just a piece of poet then you shouldn’t get married. At least not until you understand what marriage really is. I was with my wife for 4 years before getting married. I wasn’t in a rush because we were already married in action and spirit if not in actual legal terms. I love every day for my wife. I am proud to be married. I am extremely happy and satisfied. And this is after 19 years together.

catsuramen · 2019-11-12T14:15:55+00:00

True. This sub definitely has a survivorship bias. Men who are happily married do not visit this sub; they are likely working on something better than arguing online with strangers.

It's like we don't think of water & electricity until there's a power outage/water shortage.

rus9384 · 2019-11-12T19:08:15+00:00

"Marriage is just a piece of paper" is the argument women also use to convince men into marriage.

Sepean · 2019-11-12T16:50:40+00:00

For most people the benefits outweigh the risks.

As a man in his early 40s most of my friends and my kids' classmates' parents are married because they wanted to and thought it was a good deal.

It turned out to be wrong. The majority are unhappy about it, and most who are happy are of the "you can't expect to have passion after so many years" variety.

wtknight · 2019-11-12T18:08:39+00:00

But so many women who seem to believe before they get married that it means complete and total commitment end up filing for divorce.

D_D_BA4 · 2019-11-12T12:22:37+00:00

Groundbreaking insight.

King_Loser27 · 2019-11-12T18:01:07+00:00

I think it's worthless because I've grown to value self reliance and complete independence, including emotional and financial independence. So me committing to someone, or the opposite, is worthless because i don't see the point in compromising my values for a piece of paper. I don't see children in the future, so that's out of the question. I know myself and my personality enough to know that I like my alone time and making decisions without considering someone else. I think many men might not share the specific reasons I do, but the gist is the same

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erman88 · 2019-11-12T17:15:07+00:00

Let's say 90% of people still believe in marriage and 10% don't (I'd guess it's more like 80/20), 10% of the population isn't statistically an outlier.

Secondly your CMV of "most people still want to get married despite the fact it has over 50% chance of being shitty" is hard to argue against. Yes people are still romantically inclined and very stupid.

If your CMV was " I still believe in marriage is the ultimate form of commitment change my view" this would be more interesting.

OverEasyFetus · 2019-11-12T17:28:58+00:00

For you it does.

ArborioRice · 2019-11-12T20:56:45+00:00

No. People say all those things about marriage, but act much differently. Marriage virtue signalling, if you will. What people say it means and what they do and feel in their private life are two very different things.

Who is going to publicly and in polite company say their marriage is miserable and shitty and they're fucking someone on the side, or seriously thinking about stepping out on their spouse, or who wish they could step out on their spouse?

Given our oft cited marriage failure/divorce rate it's more than trivial, even if it's not as high as 50%. 5% and you have a point to your OP, beyond that is irrefutable proof people don't take marriage to "complete and total commitment" if it fails as much as it does.

couldbemage · 2019-11-12T21:12:49+00:00

People can feel about marriage however they like, the fact remains that your spouse can leave at any moment if they so choose.

If you're willing abandon joint assets, there aren't any other legal commitments.

An out of wedlock child is way more commitment. So is joining the army.

So this is just feels.

stay_positive_always · 2019-11-12T21:59:28+00:00

You marry the right partner, bliss. You marry the wrong partner, hell. We continue to grow and change too. I don't believe in a total commitment. We have only one life to live. If things eventually go sour, I don't see why we should sacrifice our happiness for the sake of a so called total commitment introduced by society

Bntt89 · 2019-11-12T22:32:12+00:00

But the just because people believe the benefits outweight the risk doesn't mean they actually do. People aspire to marry because society tells them they need to but I mean it doesn't mean they should. I think people just realize that marriage is pointless if I have to be told to do it.

theoracleofosiris · 2019-11-12T22:43:42+00:00

It’s a beautiful idea made dangerous to the men due to the words in the contract and the way judges interpret it.

Orange_Paisley · 2019-11-13T02:58:27+00:00

I’m getting married in the spring. If anyone is taking a risk it is me, not him, because I am the higher earner and I have a pension. I am doing it because I love him and because he does everything he can to make our lives better. I try to pay him back in kind. I get the idea that marriage is risky, but life is risky. Do you want to live a boring lonely life or open yourself up to love?

30dirtyfingers · 2019-11-13T06:49:10+00:00

It may be the ultimate form of commitment, but it doesnt mean you will get a full commitment.

And then, people can decide not to remain committed half way through, so......

Friendly-Casper · 2019-11-13T08:55:51+00:00

It's only beneficial for men if the marriage in question holds up till they're dead. If not, the court system screws most over in favor of the woman the man married. Men are getting married less and less this day in age. That's only going to continue to grow. Deal with it.

Million-Suns · 2019-11-13T14:58:00+00:00

Either way, it’s a staple of society

Says who? religion, mainstream media, Hollywood productions aimed at desperate future ex houseviwes?

You guys who are pro marriage know so little about it. It was never meant for commoners. It was a political tool used between lords to maintain peace and acquire lands.

Up until the 1960's marriage was also a tool to maintain some social peace and relied upon a specific social-economical trade, mainly resources provided by the sole working man, offspring and children care provided by the SAHM.

Not only the conditions are no longer met, but we're in 2019, women joined the workforce since then, men are losing their providing role and thus the social contract has been shattered.

People who still cling to that outdated institution of marriage are the idiots and the outliers and stuck in the past and deserve all the downfall that comes with that.

People who glorify marriage because they see their grandparents still married to this day, totally ignore that their grandparents have seen so much more shit.

"Tradition is peer pressure by dead people". Stay stuck in the old ways and keep on glorifying times you weren't even born in and pretend it was better back then, that will end well...

DubsPackage · 2019-11-13T20:47:12+00:00

Arguments against : Incentivized failure, painful economic losses (for men only) painful emotional losses (for men only)

Arguements for : Chance of gaining cash and prizes (for women only) You're gonna die anyway, you only live once, you could always kill yourself later (for men only)

geyejoe7 · 2019-11-18T10:49:28+00:00

For me personally, marriage is a traditional thing. I personally don't care about other traditional things as much. I'm also an atheist, so religion has no bearing on the idea of marriage for me.

My gf's parents would want her to get married one day. They're old fashioned and religious, which we are not. But neither of us are against marriage.

If we were to get married, we would sign a prenup ofcourse. She already said she doesn't want my money, nor does she want me taking any of hers. I completely agree with that. So for us it would be very low risk. And high reward.

RT-AC66U · 2019-11-12T14:48:37+00:00

Well marriage is at an all time low. So there seem to be a lot of outliers.

loke2dabrain · 2019-11-12T15:05:39+00:00

I don't think you could call the anti-marriage crowd outliers anymore. Marriage seems to be on its way out.

reluctantly_red · 2019-11-12T15:48:36+00:00

Sure. I'll agree most people believe this on their wedding day. However, later when women feel their husbands aren't meeting expectations and feel they can do better that marriage certificate means very little.

XtoDoubt · 2019-11-12T16:00:10+00:00

Once your woman divorces you for being bored, you realize how worthless 'commitment' from a woman is.

Eastuss · 2019-11-12T14:36:06+00:00

I think it's more a 50/50 or a 60/40.

Most people value society's structure and social norms. But the other biggest portion of people value their own judgement.

And as people grow older, even those who value structure and norms tend to be more lenient.

Title	To a lot of people marriage still means complete and total commitment, and anyone who thinks it’s worthless is the outlier.
Author	azngirl7689
Upvotes	23
Comments	101
Date	November 12, 2019 12:18 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/dv97hy/to_a_lot_of_people_marriage_still_means_complete/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/to-a-lot-of-people-marriage-still-means-complete.294930 https://theredarchive.com/post/294930

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