I don't need feminism.

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There's a LOT of people here who are trying to nitpick and pretty much wage war against everything related to feminism,

Given the actions of feminists I would argue that this is the correct response.

and I'm sure there are plenty of reasonable feminists who'd love to play your opposite on their side of the camp.

The only place I tend to see reasonable feminists is on /r/MensRights, and occasionally on r/feminism, which has a reputation for being infested with MRA's. I have seen very little if any sane feminism in major feminist organizations, or websites or basically anywhere where it would actually stop feminism from hurting men.

I'm just don't feel the need to be part of the game anymore, it's honestly just like GOP vs DEM, nobody cares about the details, just that their side wins.

I would say that this is a huge characteristic's. I have very specific issues with feminism, and if they changed these things I would be entirely happy to work with them (however my experience leads me to believe that that will never happen).

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Well until those "reasonable" feminists start to speak up about inequality, they're part of the problem.

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It's a shame the writer passed away. Would have liked to see more. It was halarius.

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I doubt anyone will be reading this thread after a month, but we can move to pm's if you prefer.

Erin Pizzy opened the first DV shelter in the United kingdom. She realized after doing studies on the women in her shelter than roughly half of them were as violent as the men they were leaving. Because of this she tried to open men's shelters and spread awareness about female-perpetrated DV but she was fought against by feminists and eventually left the country after receiving death threats. She is currently writing at AVFM, one of the largest MRA websites.

Warren Farrell is the only man to be elected to the board of the national organization for women twice. He was a very active feminist, but he came to have some major problems with the movement, and when he started speaking about men's issues feminists largely deserted him. Recently a group of feminist at the University of Toronto tried to get a talk of his shut down, and violently prevented people from entering the lecture hall at which he was speaking. The talk was on the plight of boys and men today, and how they are failing in many aspects of society (ie getting lower grades on average and higher levels of many behavioural problems).

Feminism has, partially because of it's actions regarding Erin Pizzey, and also through spreading lies and misleading research about domestic violence largely lead to the current situation where men cannot get help if they are being hit by their wives, and in addition are often assumed to be at fault, so are not even able to call the police. Spreading this lie has also allowed feminists to broaden the definition of domestic violence so young women are told that if a man does anything you don't want he is being abusive. Lying about domestic violence like that has also spread the idea that men are more violent that women and heightened women's fear and distrust of men.

The wage gap is another lie that feminism spreads that hurts men. Men earn more and have earned more for the past 50 years because they do more unpleasant work than women, work longer hours, do more dangerous work, and generally just sacrifice personal satisfaction for money. By spreading the lie that women earn less because of discrimination feminist took a positive trait of men (the fact that men work harder than women at work, often to support their families) and turned it into a negative trait (men discriminate against women). This increases misandry, and doesn't even help women, since they are prevented from obtaining the information they need to make proper career choices.

Feminists also lie about the incidence of rape they use this to remove due process from men accused of rape, and are basically turning an accusation of rape into a huge weapon that women have against men which can often destroy them even if they are innocent. Spreading the idea that "rape culture" exists and that men somehow condone rape also spreads incorrect ideas about how men are violent and contributes to fear of men. I also doubt feminists have managed to reduce rape at all with their campaigning, if anything they trivialize it by broadening the definition. In addition it causes women to be much more afraid than they need to be.

Men are hugely discriminated against in family courts. This is a result of early feminist campaigning over a hundred years ago. Currently, despite the fact that fatherlessness is linked to huge problems for society feminists such as NOW the largest feminist organization in the united states are fighting against fathers rights groups that are trying to get men treated fairly in family courts.

These are only a few examples of ways in which feminism has harmed men (and women). If you require additional sources or arguments on any point feel free to ask. If you would like to discuss other feminists work and how it hurts men feel free to ask as well (I don't think there is a single feminist issue that they treat with fairness to men).

It often takes a while to challenge misconceptions regarding feminism and gender issues because feminist have marketed their lies so effectively for the last 100 years.

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Feminism is a Marxist derived political ideology based around patriarchy theory, where the oppressor as determined by Marxist doctrine is the entire male population. If it was to do with equality, it most certainly is not any more. The people at the Toronto Warren Farrell protest were members of the Socialist Workers Party for example.

See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppressors%E2%80%93oppressed_distinction

Most of this kicked off with the thawing of the cold war in the 70s and the ultimate collapse of the Soviet Union. The failure of overt revolution to bring about Marxism has resulted in an attempt to implement it through changing culture, this is deemed "Cultural Marxism". It was indeed the main doctrine of the Soviet Union to spread revolution this way, and they were successful in places such as Cuba.

Of course, most feminists are blind to this. They naively think that their movement is just about equality so get angry at us for fighting it, not understanding what they are defending is built upon pillars of sand.

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That sounds as though she has interpreted Feminism as a movement which threatens to take her voice, as a woman, away from her, or somehow to marginalize her opinions or views.

This is what it DOES. (Disclaimer: not all feminists everywhere every single one, obviously; just the loud ones this is directed at.) They claim to speak for All Women, they claim that we're all victims, and that if we say that we don't feel Oppressed By The Patriarchy and held back by vague male forces... we are just too oppressed to see the way things really are, so they MUST speak on our behalf, because we are poor, weak women who haven't seen the light.

I have been told that even though I say I am not a feminist and that there are parts of the movement I strongly disagree with, "that doesn't matter, because your actions make you a feminist anyway." So I don't get to choose?

VERY insulting. VERY disenfranchising. I am preparing to entire a male-dominated field, and I have NEVER felt that I was viewed as anything less than an equal to my male peers.

There have been times, when working in another field, I had problems with others due to my gender. I handled it myself, and I felt that the system worked, and I was very grateful for that. I don't rail against the system for not preventing it in the first place and I'm not scarred or traumatized and I'm certainly not a victim. It was an isolated event caused by one individual.

I don't want ANYONE speaking on my behalf unless I specifically give them permission. I don't like to label myself in any way. Feminism is disingenuous because it claims to speak for all women, and it doesn't. It served a purpose in the past, but I am not a part of what the movement has become, and other people don't get to make that decision for me.

I created this for a post on Tumblr and thought /r/LadyMRAs and /r/MensRights would appreciate it.

[–]worstchristmasever 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]753861429-951843627 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

That sounds as though she has interpreted Feminism as a movement which threatens to take her voice, as a woman, away from her, or somehow to marginalize her opinions or views. That's a faulty interpretation. The movement of Feminism, even as much as it may be overstepping its perhaps disingenuously stated aims, is certainly not a movement with the intent or effect of disenfranchising women.

Feminism does have a disenfranchising effect (as you use the phrase). Consider for example women who are traditionalist, i.e. women who wish to be housewives with two and a half kids, or the schism over sex positivism. Women are regularly policed by feminists with regards to their opinions. It's not an accident that the term "gender traitor" arose in feminist circles.

Am I missing your point? If not, could you explain how the examples I gave above aren't examples of disenfranchisment?

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Sounds legit. I had the "other people don't speak for me" issue crop up on twitter the other day. Some asshole was trying to demand that if I didn't denounce some two-bit troll's nonsensical "rape all women" ramblings on twitter, that I supported mass rape, just because both I and that other account posted on the #mensrights hashtag.

I don't feel like it's my, or anybody else's job, to make sure that every nutjob is publicly denounced just because they say something crazy. This goes for both the MRM and Feminist movements. Unfortunately, I see a lot of MRMs get hung up on posting the goings-on of every radfem nutjob, like their insane ravings have any importance and are representative of the feminist movement as a whole (although, I do agree with putting a spotlight on "crazy" statements made by feminists who happen to have a high profile public job in academia or politics, since they're in the position to influence and subvert minds and public opinion).

But it's reasons like this that, while I support the Men's Rights Movement, I prefer to call myself an Egalitarian, rather than an MRA. I believe that both sides need equal support, and we'd be a lot further along that path if we could put aside the gender hatred long enough to actually get shit done.

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You realize that the variety of expression which you feel so comfortable utilizing is a fairly recent development for women in our society? The autonomy you are enjoying is the result of activism on the part of other individuals whom were willing to get political in order to give you the right to stand up and speak for yourself. Additionally, feminism is a series of academic philosophies and theories which are far more multi-faceted than the simplified understanding you have just exhibited. Finally, feminism is not just the study of women. It is the study of marginalized cultures and the intersections relationships of race,class and gender. In essence, it is an entire field of sociology which aims to dissect social institutions from a human rights perspective. I have a variety of useful resources if you would like to do some research.

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If you're anti-abortion, you're speaking for other people (as you're wrongly accusing feminists of doing) by denying them the decision to choose what's best for them at a given point in their life.

We do this all the time as a society, and there is no explicit difference between doing that with regards to abortion and in any other social area. Feminists should respect the fact that many women are not in favour of abortion, and not frame the issue as a war on men by women. Doing so denies the pro-life women a voice (as well as the pro-life men).

The "feminist party line" is about choice, respect, and equality.

Not really. Christina Hoff Summers, a self described "equality feminist" doesn't advocate against any of those things, yet is widely considered to be anti-feminist by many in the movement.

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[–]Miss_anthropyy[S] 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Are there not places you can't walk at night?

No.

States in which you cannot have an abortion?

Many women are pro-life.

Were there not coersive, compulsive social suggestions that have resulted in your long hair, your long nails, your tone of voice, the way you dress/walk/etc.-- that, even if these are cultural in the sense that nearly all societies have coerced identities, you did not make a free choice to enter that identity, that you were in your critical period allowed a limited set of experiences which do not as easily possess dominant positions in society as the limited male experience does?

I like being a woman. I love my hair, my nails, my voice (which is naturally soprano, thanks - that's biology), the way I dress, walk, and talk - and it is a mix of biology, culture, socialization, and everything that lead me here. And I love it. I'm not oppressed. Many people tell me to cut my hair (it is over 2 feet long), but I like it this way. I get made fun of for my "claws" as well. I love the color hot pink, I love being a girly girl, I love makeup, short skirts, and high heels. I love being a woman.

I also rock climb. I'm studying to earn my PhD. I've gone to motocross and Formula 1 races, I've ridden quads and motorcycles, I go target shooting, I'm planning a trip to go hunting with one of my guy friends. I've never been told I can't do any of those things because I'm a woman. When I express a genuine interest in something, and I'm met with respect and openness. People like to talk about things they enjoy, so if I say, "This is so interesting, can you tell me how this works?" they're more than happy to help me. The men I know are well aware that while I'm shorter than they are, I'm just as capable of doing everything that they do - and they are cheerful and supportive of my doing so. I also share my interests with them - it's a two-way street! I took my ex-boyfriend to see his first ballet in NYC.

Ever since I was young, I was told that I could do anything I wanted. I love my femininity. It's an important part of who I am. I love expressing it. But it has never, ever held me back.

[–]BlueLinchpin 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

I'm not going to get on some high horse and tell you that you owe it to someone to call yourself feminist, like that really makes a difference, but I think it's worth noting that yes, life for women is finally elevated to an equal place in society and for white, middle to upper class women in the U.S. at least, in most careers and situations, there's not anyone really holding us down. Occasionally someone might treat us like shit or murder us just because we're women, but generally women like you and I don't have to worry about this.

But here's my problem with what you're saying here. Nevermind that the only reason you can say these things is because of women's rights activists (who themselves were generally privileged white, upper-to-middle-class privileged women like you and I)

Women who are not white, middle to upper class and living in the U.S. do face a lot of problems as a result of being women. Even here in the U.S., if you're a non-white lower class woman, you face two doses of discrimination and mistreatment and then some. Let's not even get in to the enslavement and rape of women, children, and women-children in more unfortunate parts of the world, or places in between where getting an education as a woman is hard and women are really, truly oppressed.

So when you proudly proclaim that you don't need feminism, great. No one is really surprised. And maybe you're supportive of women's rights in general but just don't like to associate yourself with the feminist image, and that's fine too, and pretty reasonable actually. If that's the case then you have my apology.

But I think if you're being a bit more honest with yourself, what you really are meaning to say with your sign and with the post above, is that because you in your circumstances aren't oppressed as a woman, you don't support other women who are oppressed.

But of course. You don't need anyone to speak for you. I just don't see where we're supposed to admire you for not seeing the merit in helping other members of an oppressed group get the right to speak for themselves.

Note: In all honesty, I'm sure 0% of this really applies to you as a person, and more likely than not you're someone like me who is just a person both in favor of getting rid of the wrongs society does to each culture. And honestly, it's not fair to go at you for not caring about people in other situations (and I've made a great many assumptions about you as a person, anyway), because, honestly, who really does?

But this is an attitude I see again and again from people who aren't active in men's or women's rights, which IMO is appalling. Or maybe you really are the privileged white person who only supports MRA and not women's rights, too. Either way, my response is just a vent at the attitude in general, so please take it as such.

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I would approach that from a POV of helping people in general, not just helping women. There you're talking about a huge socioeconomic and cultural change, it's very narrow to say oh, you need feminism to cause all of those changes. It's not the only way to go about doing things.

Beyond that, I would really hesitate to speak on the behalf of ANY woman without her permission. For example, a lot of people will say that women wearing the hijab is an example of women being oppressed, and feminism needs to come to their rescue. In many - I'm inclined to say most - cases, that's not the case. Women make the choice to wear the hijab, and enjoy doing so. They even view it as empowering. They believe in their religion (which is more egalitarian than people think, honestly) and they honor their God by donning the veil and reading the Qur'an. More power to them.

I think it is atrocious that we can impose our views on other cultures without considering that we should probably stop to ask what they really want. Change is slow and gradual and not every country can or should have the culture of a modern, Westernized nation. When you're going to make changes like that you have to improve everybody's situation and it's not as simple as oh, let's free the women.

And maybe you're supportive of women's rights in general but just don't like to associate yourself with the feminist image, and that's fine too, and pretty reasonable actually.

Yup, more this. All about girl power, don't like the connotations of feminism.

[–]BlueLinchpin 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the measured and not crazy response! This topic ends up with too many of those...

I would approach that from a POV of helping people in general, not just helping women. There you're talking about a huge socioeconomic and cultural change, it's very narrow to say oh, you need feminism to cause all of those changes. It's not the only way to go about doing things.

This is IMO the right way of approaching things. But when we say things like "I'm not personally oppressed as a woman, therefor I don't support the women's struggle", it comes off like you're saying you don't support the women's struggle at all. I mean, neither of us are oppressed as men, but clearly we're both in support of seeing the problems men face go away. Feminism is such a nebulous cluster of ideas, a lot of them at odds with each other.

Your argument is pretty valid, but here's the thing. Why is it acceptable to call yourself a lady MRA (I'm assuming you do, since I've seen we both post to /r/ladyMRAs...god, that makes me sound like a weirdo. Sorry.) but not a feminist? Both have viewpoints associated with them.

Beyond that, I would really hesitate to speak on the behalf of ANY woman without her permission.

Of course! I mean, there is something to be said for speaking up for a person when they flat out don't have the ability to speak for themselves, ie women who get beheaded for trying to educate themselves or act on their own behalf in any way. It's an entirely different argument about whether or not it's morally justifiable to speak on behalf of those people, but I personally think that giving women the opportunity and right to speak for themselves and choose whether or not they want hijabs (many women who have the right to choose do wear them, after all, and that's fine) etc isn't the same as speaking for them. What's important to realize in that a lot of these countries, women are so oppressed that they aren't able to make that choice without great risk to their life, or simply don't have the education/family planning/etc options available to them to take advantage of period. Anyway, that's sort of a completely different topic, so I digress...

I think it is atrocious that we can impose our views on other cultures without considering that we should probably stop to ask what they really want.

I agree in theory, yeah, but let me point out that when you say something like this, you're only taking into account what the men in these societies want. Speaking as an anthropology student...yes, definitely, the women share these cultural ideas much of the time. Women will be just as quick as men in, say, parts of India, to demand a woman jump into a fire after her husband's death. But it's still worth realizing that throughout the third world and in some ways beyond, it's the male power and male viewpoints which cultural relativists are protecting while completely ignoring the needs and wants of the other half of the population.

Helping people have the ability to choose without fear of death isn't the same as outlawing hijabs (WTF, France?) or forcing our ideas on other cultures.

And then you get countries like Iran and Afghanistan where the women used to have modern rights and not have to fear being beheaded for going to school or talking to a man, and religious extremists have come in and changed that. Those aren't cases of "well that's their culture" but "these people are all being oppressed by religious fanatics and the women are getting the worst of it".

And again as I mentioned earlier, often times it isn't what a culture wants but what people just don't have access to. Education is so scarce it's only available for men, family planning just isn't available, etc.

Anyway, that got way off topic but I wanted to address it. Interesting topic.

Yup, more this. All about girl power, don't like the connotations of feminism.

Here's my thing, then. Why isn't your message this, that you're not a feminist because you don't want to be tied to the connotations? It's strange to me that this is your real reason but your argument is "because I'm not oppressed as a woman". I understand you can have both reasons and they're your reasons to do whatever you want with. But you're saying it's "more" about this, which is weird to me. Iunno. :P

[–]Miss_anthropyy[S] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This is IMO the right way of approaching things. But when we say things like "I'm not personally oppressed as a woman, therefor I don't support the women's struggle", it comes off like you're saying you don't support the women's struggle at all.

I’ve never said that. I just don’t like “feminism.” Feminists don’t have a monopoly on women’s issues… thought they’d like you to think that.

I mean, neither of us are oppressed as men

Uhh. I would say it’s close, but I do think it’d be easier to be a guy than a girl. I don’t think it’s a pissing contest, though, so I don’t think it matters.

but clearly we're both in support of seeing the problems men face go away. Feminism is such a nebulous cluster of ideas, a lot of them at odds with each other.

Sure. So is every movement. So is every concept. I trust that people have the sense to filter out meaning and nuance.

Your argument is pretty valid, but here's the thing. Why is it acceptable to call yourself a lady MRA (I'm assuming you do, since I've seen we both post to /r/ladyMRAs...god, that makes me sound like a weirdo. Sorry.) but not a feminist? Both have viewpoints associated with them.

I agree with more MRA points than feminist points. That’s easy! The community is also a lot more open to humor, less PC language, and cursing. The vibe and culture of each movement is very different, and I find I fit in better here than there.

Of course! I mean, there is something to be said for speaking up for a person when they flat out don't have the ability to speak for themselves, ie women who get beheaded for trying to educate themselves or act on their own behalf in any way. It's an entirely different argument about whether or not it's morally justifiable to speak on behalf of those people, but I personally think that giving women the opportunity and right to speak for themselves and choose whether or not they want hijabs (many women who have the right to choose do wear them, after all, and that's fine) etc isn't the same as speaking for them. What's important to realize in that a lot of these countries, women are so oppressed that they aren't able to make that choice without great risk to their life, or simply don't have the education/family planning/etc options available to them to take advantage of period. Anyway, that's sort of a completely different topic, so I digress...

Fair enough. That is a different topic. Re: hijabs, that’s coming from more modern industrialized nations like Egypt, por ejemplo, where the women can speak out about it. Heck, women still catch flack for it here!

I agree in theory, yeah, but let me point out that when you say something like this, you're only taking into account what the men in these societies want.

What? No, that is the first thing you’ve said that’s completely wrong. I was talking about women.

Speaking as an anthropology student...yes, definitely, the women share these cultural ideas much of the time. Women will be just as quick as men in, say, parts of India, to demand a woman jump into a fire after her husband's death. But it's still worth realizing that throughout the third world and in some ways beyond, it's the male power and male viewpoints which cultural relativists are protecting while completely ignoring the needs and wants of the other half of the population.

This is the book we read in my Islamic politics class, and it’s where I pulled that example from.

Helping people have the ability to choose without fear of death isn't the same as outlawing hijabs (WTF, France?) or forcing our ideas on other cultures.

Heh, I actually totally support that law, but that gets into an entiiiirely different topic about political philosophy and laïcité (which is a concept we don’t have in America)…

And then you get countries like Iran and Afghanistan where the women used to have modern rights and not have to fear being beheaded for going to school or talking to a man, and religious extremists have come in and changed that. Those aren't cases of "well that's their culture" but "these people are all being oppressed by religious fanatics and the women are getting the worst of it".

Well, the burqa’s not the traditional hijab. Completely different.

Here's my thing, then. Why isn't your message this, that you're not a feminist because you don't want to be tied to the connotations? It's strange to me that this is your real reason but your argument is "because I'm not oppressed as a woman". I understand you can have both reasons and they're your reasons to do whatever you want with. But you're saying it's "more" about this, which is weird to me. Iunno. :P

It’s both. If I’m asked about it in everyday conversation, my short answer is “I don’t self-identify as a feminist because of the negative connotations of the term, and I don’t agree with a lot of the movement.”

Awesome conversation. I love having calm discussions about these things, and I can tell you're smart and know your stuff. :D

*Edit - I can't format~

[–]BlueLinchpin2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I’ve never said that. I just don’t like “feminism.” Feminists don’t have a monopoly on women’s issues… thought they’d like you to think that.

Bit of a ramble, sorry:

Really stuff like this comes down to semantics...but feminism is a huge, nebulous cluster of beliefs and ideologies, a lot of them don't agree with each other at all. But feminism in the larger sense (rather than being defined by whatever view is most prevalent among people who call themselves feminists) is just shorthand for women's rights activism, just like MRA is. There are certainly very prevalent views in the MRA community (anti-feminism, the idea that women aren't oppressed in the US, pro-masculinity) but it would be equally strange for us to say that MRAs don't have a monopoly on men's rights. If someone disagrees with the prevalent views in the MRA movement, but is pro-men's rights, are they still not an MRA? At the end of the day it's just a label on both sides, obviously, and egalitarianism is the best label for being supportive of both genders, but then, here we are, both of us in the MRA subreddit and not the egalitarian ones.

Anyway, I probably have failed to make my point, but even though at the end of the day what you call yourself doesn't matter at all, we're still shirking one shorthand and not the other when they're essentially equivalent, instead of speaking up in the feminist community and being a voice in favor of men's rights.

Uhh. I would say it’s close, but I do think it’d be easier to be a guy than a girl. I don’t think it’s a pissing contest, though, so I don’t think it matters.

My bad! I can see where you misunderstood me, that was poorly phrased on my part. I don't think either of us are oppressed "for being men" is what I meant to say, as a response to you feeling that you're not oppressed "for being a woman". Hopefully that clears things up. I definitely agree that men even in the US have it a bit better. Though unfortunately most MRAs do not agree at all.

I agree with more MRA points than feminist points. That’s easy! The community is also a lot more open to humor, less PC language, and cursing. The vibe and culture of each movement is very different, and I find I fit in better here than there.

I agree with you there, I'm not a huge fan of the more prevalent feminist communities (though I disagree with you about how comfortable it is being in MRA communities. I see way more misogyny than I'd like, and misandry than I'd like, in each respective community...). Anyway, that's fair enough. Maybe you don't see the misogyny that I see, that's life.

What? No, that is the first thing you’ve said that’s completely wrong. I was talking about women.

Here's the thing...when we're talking about cultures where men are in power and the cultural norms that are enforced oppress women's rights to speak up, be educated, live freely at all, etc, then we aren't talking about what women want. We're talking about what they're living under. Yes, women share these cultural ideas in general, but it would be wrong of us to ignore the fact that these are cultural ideas propagated and enforced by the in-power group (men). It's worth noting that throughout history, often when there is a ruling group (be it a caste, class, nobility, ethnicity, colonial power, slave-owning race, etc), they propagate and enforce cultural ideas about the inferiority of the oppressed group, how morally wrong it is for that group to be educated/live their lives as they choose/etc.

My point is, like say a monarchy, if a ruling group raises their oppressed group to believe that they are lesser people who shouldn't have the right to education/etc, of course they're going to grow up believing they're inferior and don't deserve those things.

And yet, you still in these countries get women trying to get educations or freedom, and risking their lives for it.

I'm rambling horribly and for that I apologize, but I think in all of your response this was the thing that didn't really get addressed.

So what I mean by "you're only looking at what men in these cultures want", is that by just leaving these societies where women are oppressed alone "because that's what they want", you're only taking into account what the ruling group (men) wants, without even giving them the chance to choose.

Heh, I actually totally support that law, but that gets into an entiiiirely different topic about political philosophy and laïcité (which is a concept we don’t have in America)…

Fair enough, and I've hardly paid attention to the issue so I'll not touch that one with a ten foot pole :P

Awesome conversation. I love having calm discussions about these things, and I can tell you're smart and know your stuff. :D

You say that, but you weren't expecting the completely nonsense stream of rambling above, were you?

I do find it kind of surprising that you're more comfortable here. Not that I'm too comfortable in most feminist communities (to be honest, any community in general online is going to be a crap shoot, I try not to hold it against that community IRL...), but I think I've seen stuff in both communities to make my blood curdle! Yikes.

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You just contradicted yourself.

You want to rely on someone else to speak for you but you want them to say what you want spoken. It is implied that feminism doesn't speak what you want spoken (or does it?). If it doesn't then that is a really good reason not to support it.

You're projecting with your statement about Men's Rights because A. Men actually have a plethora of issues that simply cannot be handled individually. We actually suffer from the type of systematic discrimination that feminism pretends women face (wage gap, disappearing girl crisis, not being believed when reporting rape) and B. the MRM compiles and disseminates FACTS (y'know hardcore completely objective statistics that haven't been doctored like feminism has done over and over and over) so are there really fucking angry dudes among us? Yeah. Is anyone fucking surprised at the rage of humans who have been discriminated against by the very same movement that lies about how we are the oppressors? If they are, they're devoid of understanding. Besides, you'll never hear our ba apples calling for your gender's fucking genocide or widespread genital mutilation. You don't have a leg to stand on comparing our movements. They are as different as you and I.

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Because feminists hate men.

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Not sure if girl or...

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I was just being an asshole, my apologies.

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Title	I don't need feminism.
Author	Miss_anthropyy
Upvotes	825
Comments	243
Date	December 14, 2012 11:09 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/14v8w4/i_dont_need_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-dont-need-feminism.1006588 https://theredarchive.com/post/1006588

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