Since we've established that feminism isn't concerned with solving men's issues, what's the point of /r/Menslib?

IFuckedZoeQuinn · 2017-03-23T13:38:10+00:00

Recently we've had several threads in which the consensus among feminists is that feminism should only fight for women's rights and has no...

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For example female only domestic violence shelters get almost all of the funding. If things were made more equal they would only get 50%.

That doesn't mean we need to close down female DV shelters though. It just means we need more money. Women have been very successful in starting up DV charities and lobbying the government for funding, we should take a leaf out of their book, rather than demand half of the shelters they've built for themselves.

Woman get sentenced to 60% less time in jail than men for the same crime. Fixing that would require that ether woman get harsher sentences or laws and programs be enacted that make sentences on men more lenient.

Part of the reason women's sentences are lighter is because they are often the primary carer of a child, who should not be deprived of a guardian. It also often explains the crime. But I agree, the law should go easier on men who steal a loaf of bread, and harsher on women who molest their students. Giving men lenient sentences for non violent crime takes nothing away from women, and giving women harsher sentences for paedophilia only affects female paedophiles, who are probably not the top priority for feminist defence.

Men don't currently have the right to divest themselves of parental responsibility at a safe haven.

I fundamentally disagree that this should be an option. Women have the right to an abortion because it lives inside their bodies. Wanting something removed from your body is not the same as refusing to pay for a child. Once it is born, both men and women are equally responsible for it's upkeep, and whether or not it is put up for adoption. There is no make equivalent to abortion, and it comes with as many pro's as it does con's.

[–]Leinadro1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

That doesn't mean we need to close down female DV shelters though. It just means we need more money. Women have been very successful in starting up DV charities and lobbying the government for funding, we should take a leaf out of their book, rather than demand half of the shelters they've built for themselves.

I keep hearing this ides that men want to close down women's shelters but frankly i haven't even the most vile anti woman portions of the mrm say anything like that. Maybe there are some that think that way but honestly I think a lot of it is people choosing to hear, "Shut down womens shelters" when "Open shelters for men" is actually being said.

Part of the reason women's sentences are lighter is because they are often the primary carer of a child, who should not be deprived of a guardian. It also often explains the crime.

So the fact that she is a primary caregiver mitigates the fact that she commited a crime?

The issue is this isnt just applied to women with children even women who arent mothers get a similar break.

Its just weird to see constant calls for harsher penalties on only male criminals for serious crimes.

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I keep hearing this ides that men want to close down women's shelters but frankly i haven't even the most vile anti woman portions of the mrm say anything like that.

I never said they did (though that's what the guy above me was proposing). My whole point was that equality doesn't need to come at the expense of others, and I used as an example how we can address male DV victims without cutting funds for female victims.

So the fact that she is a primary caregiver mitigates the fact that she commited a crime?

No, but it means maybe depriving a child of it's mother in it's formative years isn't in societies best interests either, especially when the only reason she stole/sold drugs/prostituted herself was to feel said child.

The issue is this isnt just applied to women with children even women who arent mothers get a similar break.

Yes they do, to a lesser extent. And this is a feminist concern, as it's typical of how society treats women as children. Given that most women aren't criminals, I imagine even the most self serving women would rather have the right to be treat as a fully autonomous adults than to knock a few years of a murder charge they'll almost never commit.

Its just weird to see constant calls for harsher penalties on only male criminals for serious crimes.

This is the moment where I point out that

A) Men commit the cast majority of serious crime

B) There are just as many people calling for the abolition of the death penalty, the abolition of private prison, amnesty for Snowden, decriminalising drugs, and more humane prisons in general.

[–]Leinadro0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I never said they did (though that's what the guy above me was proposing). My whole point was that equality doesn't need to come at the expense of others, and I used as an example how we can address male DV victims without cutting funds for female victims.

And most people, even mras, that call for support for male shelters dont call for them at the expense of aid for women.

No, but it means maybe depriving a child of it's mother in it's formative years isn't in societies best interests either, especially when the only reason she stole/sold drugs/prostituted herself was to feel said child.

Thats true in those cases but lets not act like those are the only crimes women commit. Does it make sense for a child to spend their formative years with a mother who killed someone, raped someone, or abused someone? Maybe even another child?

....Yes they do, to a lesser extent. And this is a feminist concern....

So much of a concern that feminists are largely silent in cases where women get light sentences yet when men get them they are up in arms acting like thats the norm for male criminals only.

A) Men commit the cast majority of serious crime

And Ill point out that like women the vast majority of men arent criminals.

B) There are just as many people calling for the abolition of the death penalty, the abolition of private prison, amnesty for Snowden, decriminalising drugs, and more humane prisons in general.

But again a specific lack of calls for harsher punishments for female criminals that commit serious crimes.

Its almost like a criminal is being punished bt their gender rather than their actions.

[–]Kerb_Poet0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And most people, even mras, that call for support for male shelters dont call for them at the expense of aid for women.

You're arguing a point I'm not making. Someone said that equality comes at the expense of the privileged, and used DV shelters as an example. I then retorted that it's possible to equalise the number of male and female DV shelters without reducing the number of female shelters. At no point in this discussion have I proposed not building men's shelters because it would be harmful to women, nor have I accused MRA's of doing this.

Does it make sense for a child to spend their formative years with a mother who killed someone, raped someone, or abused someone? Maybe even another child?

Let's not exaggerate. Women who commit murder don't walk. I agree there's a disgusting divide between punishments for men and women who commit statuatory rape, and if you ask me, that's entirely due to patriarchal ideas about sexuality that paint men as 'always being up for it', and put the onus on him to fight a rapist off in a way that isn't imposed on women. We also have a tendency to infantilise women, and excuse them actions we wouldn't excuse men, because they're apparently more emotional and less able to understand the consequences to their actions. We treat women as victims more than we do aggressors, and dismantling these gender roles is a key tenet of 3rd wave feminism.

So much of a concern that feminists are largely silent in cases where women get light sentences yet when men get them they are up in arms acting like thats the norm for male criminals only.

So people can only get angry about a thing if they get angry about literally every example of that thing? I don't know what else to say, I could link you to some articles in which feminists decry this, but I suspect you'd only dismiss them as being a meaningless minority and continue to believe that tumblrinaction is more representative. You're seeing only a small portion of what's reported in the media, you're not seeing feminists converse around dinner tables, you're not seeing the hundreds of feminist papers, dissertations, and articles published every day, nor are you seeing the boring stuff; lobbyists and politicians and activists working to change things bit by bit on a day to day basis, but this is all happening. Feminism doesn't lay dormant, have a huge rally then pack up for another year. Suffice to say, very few feminists enjoy the portion of their gender roles that treat them as children, and most are working to overturn them, to have women be recognized as adults in terms of rights and responsibilities. Whether or not they kick up a fuss about low sentences for women along the way, harsher senences are at the endgame of one of 3rd wave feminism's primary goals.

And Ill point out that like women the vast majority of men arent criminals.

Of course not, but when your sample size is so much higher, it only makes sense the averages may be a little off. You also can't discount the high level of black men arrested, who have historically been given higher sentences to cope with the demand of people who use prisons as money making opportunities. This isn't necessarily just a gender problem.

But again a specific lack of calls for harsher punishments for female criminals that commit serious crimes.

No, but for non violent crime, it's a call for lighter sentences all round, for both men and women. And I'll say this one last time; 3rd wave feminists are working extremely hard to overturn the gender expectations that lead to them getting softer sentences. I think people hold feminists to an extremely high moral standard. For instance, I am very passionately pro Palestine. I have been informed that there is a similar situation in Tibet, however I know little about it and focus my efforts and energies on Palestine. Nobody accuses me of hypocrisy. But when a feminist cards about one particular piece of sexist injustice, they are expected to care equally about all others, otherwise their opinion is void. There are so many feminist causes, many of which receive very little media attention, and less support than others, it so happens that women's lessened contribution to rape culture is one of them, probably because it is rare and because getting a lower sentence than your male counterpart for a crime most people will never commit doesn't impact feminists every day lives in the same way the pay gap, media representation, or abortion laws do.

Its almost like a criminal is being punished bt their gender rather than their actions.

It's almost like judges, who are predominantly older, male, and conservative, are enforcing patriarchal norms feminists want gone, as opposed to this being a feminist conspiracy to allow them to commit heinous crimes for a lesser punishment.

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PS being against the insane idea of "financial abortion" doesn't make one against "men having reproductive rights." nobody outside of MRA groups actually wants that shit

I don't think the idea is so much insane as it is not great for the greater society. If its a woman's right to choose to carry the child to term, how can you call it equality to then force the man to pay for that child if he never had a choice in the first place - particularly if we're going with the argument that sex isn't consent to having children, as is often a defense of access to abortion?

Also, what reproductive rights do you believe that men could have, or should, have?

And, to be clear, I'm pro-choice, and I believe a woman has the right to choose, however, I also think that the current system is bias towards women's choices whereas men have none (that are legal, anyways).

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I'm a woman, not an MRA and think it could be the fairest way to address the imbalance between the genders paternal rights. Women can abort even if the father wanted the child with little consequence, and that is her right. In a perfect world, a man who does not want to be a father can relinquish all rights so the woman can make the choice whether to continue with the pregnancy or not. If he made the decision then he's not going to be a good father anyway. I'd have preferred if my own father took this option, instead of refusing to support my mum financially yet demanding access whenever it suited him. She suffered financially and mentally when I responded well to his inconsistent (and eventually harmful) visits. He was supported by a court order but there was no enforcer for financial support. If a system like that was in place, I wouldn't have had to go through that.

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Most feminists seem to recommend /r/Menslib as the best sub for discussing and solving men's issues.

Because they actually have productive discussions of men's issues.

But Menslib uses feminism as its foundation and forbids questioning or criticizing feminist theory. How can a subreddit that seeks to help men base itself on an ideology that doesn't care about them in the slightest?

Feminism has been an extraordinarily successful movement... why wouldn't a movement with similar (gender-based) goals model itself after a successful predecessor? and as for forbidding questioning or criticizing feminist theory, it's to keep conversation productive. the mainstream MRM is thoroughly bogged down in counterproductive "DAE hate feminists?" wank.

Additionally, does the admission that feminism will never fight for men's rights mean that men need their own advocacy group completely divorced from feminist thought?

"feminist thought" is a toolkit. they should take what's useful to them and leave the rest.

Does this mean that feminists will support the existence of the MRM now, or is it still no-good-very-bad because it's too "misogynist?"

some will and some won't. I personally support many men's issues... the opioid epidemic has disproportionately affected men, men continue to suffer high rates of PTSD and suicide, education gap, male rape largely goes unreported, etc.

the MRM-- and my theory is that this is a lingering remnant of PUA culture-- cares way, way too much what feminists think about them. they need to stop circlejerking over "will feminists accept and support us?" and pursue their own agendas.

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Oil and Solar Power are at complete odds with one another, there is no common ground for them to share.

....

On the other hand, despite what you may have discerned from r/tumblrinaction, there is no reason male and female issues cannot be solved side by side.

No, but in this case they won't be.

Either feminist theory is true or it isn't, why shouldn't there be a mens group that works within that framework?

Because feminism is advocacy for women. Even at the expense of men.

Women gaining more rights does nothing to take them away from men you know.

As you well know women have all the same rights as men.

What feminists are fighting for is supremacy.

For instance: men's activists want equal custody rights.

Feminsts prefer the status quo because it benefits women.

What's the common ground there?

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (49 children) | Copy Link

Because feminism is advocacy for women. Even at the expense of men.

First of all I disagree with this, secondly you missed my point exactly. I never said what feminists are doing is right (although it is), what I said was either feminists are right about there being a patriarchy or they're not. Given that there's dozens of men's groups that deny the existence of.the patriarchy, why shouldn't there be one that doesn't? I can agree with the problems Marx saw in society without thinking communism is the answer.

As you well know women have all the same rights as men.

Legally speaking, yes. Except for abortion laws. But even then, the law can be biased against women, i.e. neither men or women can access the pill or tampons on certain healthcare plans that have no moral qualms about offering viagra. Technically this is equal, as neither men nor women can get the pill, and they are both free to get viagra. In practice however, this is a clear bias against female sexuality.

There are also prevailing social attitudes and gender roles that negatively affect women, and this didn't go away just because the law changed. When I was born, marital rape was legal. My mother didn't have the legal right to say no to my father less than a generation ago. You think all the marital rapists and marital rape apologists just up and changed their minds on the topic the day the law was changed?

Finally, if being technically equal before the law is all that matters, why is there any need for men's rights activism?

What feminists are fighting for is supremacy.

Citation needed.

For instance: men's activists want equal custody rights. Feminsts prefer the status quo because it benefits women.

Men get equal custody when they apply for it. Custody rates are skewed because men so rarely apply for it. Perhaps more would if people like yourself would stop lying to them about their apparently abysmal chances.

[–]ee4m2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago* (48 children) | Copy Link

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (47 children) | Copy Link

Your information is wrong. Men cannot compete with female legal privilege, so only very wealthy men can disagree with what women want in the family court.

Men actually beat women in family court cases more than half the time. It's just that in over 91% of cases the parents decide out of court to give the mother primary caregiver status.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1617115

http://handaxe.tumblr.com/post/89677588375/but-women-get-unfair-advantages-in-custody

Female sexuality is not more oppressed

So slut shaming isn't a thing? Women can show their nipples just like men can? Birth control for women is as easily accessible as condoms? Nobody's trying to ban or restrict abortion?

Female sex toys are mainstream

As are cockrings and buttplugs. Hentai pillows aren't mainstream, but fucking a pillow with the likeness of Rei Ayanami isn't quite on the level of a vibrator.

female sex offenders are given an easy ride in the legal system.

I've adressed this in another comment. It's outrageous that any sex offender gets away with their crimes, and I doubt many feminists would jump to the defence of a paedophile. I also wouldn't count paedophilia or rape as part of healthy sexuality, so saying your average woman doesn't have her sexuality repressed because she'll do less time for raping a 12 year old doesn't exactly follow.

[–]ee4m1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (46 children) | Copy Link

Men actually beat women in family court cases more than half the time. It's just that in over 91% of cases the parents decide out of court to give the mother primary caregiver status.

When a man can afford to take on women's privilege (free legal aid for example), the court will come to a fair arrangement (unless there is good reason not to)

If the man cannot afford to take on female privilege the woman will win and he wont be given visitation rights.

You are right when you say most arrangements and are settled out of court by reasonable parents.

So slut shaming isn't a thing?

Slut shaming of women is the only think we hear about. Studies show men and women regard male and female sluts equally.

Older women with younger men are lauded, when its men they are shamed.

Single men are not trusted around children because of oppressive attitudes twords male sexuality.

Women that rape male minors are often given a free pass.

Whatever issue you can mention, women are less oppressed by it.

As are cockrings and buttplugs. Hentai pillows aren't mainstream, but fucking a pillow with the likeness of Rei Ayanami isn't quite on the level of a vibrator.

Female sex toys are mainstream. The only male sex toys that are mainstream are sold in the mainstream by business catering to women.

and I doubt many feminists would jump to the defence of a paedophile.

When feminists started investigating incest in the 70s they buried the victims of women that came forward. Michelle eliot of kidscape has recieved a lot of push back from feminists for trying to cater to these victims. A woman raping a 14 year old girl is celebrated in the vagina monologues. Feminists tend to applaud this play.

Anyhow - stay on topic. i never said feminists defend pedophiles (they do indirectly by painting the problem as mainly gendered).

Women can show their nipples just like men can?

In most setting women can show more. The office, the night club, in the street.

Birth control for women is as easily accessible as condoms? Nobody's trying to ban or restrict abortion?

Feminists have blocked legal paternal surrender.

Men don't have anything like abortion, so women not having that right is not oppression. Its more equal to where men are at.

[–]Kerb_Poet0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (45 children) | Copy Link

Older women with younger men are lauded

By women, but not men

when its men they are shamed.

By women, but not men. Seems to me people like to see their own gender bat out of their league because it gives them hope.

Whatever issue you can mention, women are less oppressed by it.

Abortion rights, Birth Control rights, pay gap, political representation, media representation, FGM, rape culture, cross gender violence, lack of respect in general. Plus, it hasn't even been 100 years in the UK since women could vote. It hasn't been 50 since abortion was legalised and birth control became widespread. And it's barely been 20 since marital rape was outlawed. The women who live around you have grown up and been raised by parents and grandparents who lived through incredibly oppressive times. Societal attitudes don't change overnight.

i never said feminists defend pedophiles

Then where's the issue?

(they do indirectly by painting the problem as mainly gendered).

This is a societal problem, sometimes ignored feminists, sometimes specifically tackled, and often indirectly tackled through the dismantling of toxic gender roles. Do you have any examples of influential, or large groups of feminists actively encouraging the 'all paedophiles are men' narrative?

When feminists started investigating incest in the 70's

Any examples from the last 40 years?

In most setting women can show more. The office, the night club, in the street.

Really? You don't see dudes in tank tops and shorts in the club? Guys shirtless in the streets? Office I'll give you, women have the advantage of being able to wear skirts. But it doesn't change the fact that a part of their body is unfairly policed and sexualised in a way they aren't on men, which leads to women being shamed or even arrested for feeding their baby the way nature intended.

Feminists have blocked legal paternal surrender.

Does that mean what I think it means? That a guy can just stop being legally responsible for a child on a whim, without putting it up for adoption? Good. Block that shit.

Men don't have anything like abortion

Well no, men don't grow babies in their bodies so we don't have a medical procedure to remove them.

so women not having that right is not oppression. Its more equal to where men are at.

Nope. Equality is having full autonomy over your body, not full autonomy over all the parts and functions men have.

[–]ee4m1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (44 children) | Copy Link

By women, but not men

The celebrated cooger has come near entirely from female media. Meanwhile an older man with a twenty year old is a pariah in society.

Abortion rights,

If women had no abortion rights they would be equal with men.

Birth Control rights,

Women have more birth control rights and options.

pay gap,

This is a myth. Married women spend less time at the work place. The men they are married to share their wages with them. Men take less out of the tax system than they put in. Its the opposite for women, so large sums of money are transferred to women from men via the state and relationships. So women have more access to resources.

The lesbian premium research shows women are paid more when they work as much as men.

political representation,

Women are the majority of voters so they have more political representation. They get a much easier ride when they run for office. Fact is the majority of women want to start being mothers at around 35. This is why there are gaps in the professional world.

media representation,

Women control 80% consumer spending so the media is slanted towords women.

FGM,

Men are more affected. 2 million women verses 1/3 of the male population have this done to them. Its done to men in america for profit. Feminist organizations go to help girls in africa and leave their brothers to die of the same infections.

rape culture,

This affects men more. Rape of men is barely spoken about the numbers arent widely collected or reported. Society excuses womens rapes, not the other way around.

cross gender violence,

Women are more aggressive in this regard.

lack of respect in general.

Disrespecting a woman is blasphomy in this culture.

Plus, it hasn't even been 100 years in the UK since women could vote.

Men and women got the vote at around the same time. In america women get it as a birth right. Men have regrister for the draft and are punished if they dont.

It hasn't been 50 since abortion was legalised and birth control became widespread.

Men invented this for women, and paid for it. Society tends to object to recriprocal rights for men.

And it's barely been 20 since marital rape was outlawed.

So women have more rights than men in this regard. In most countries a woman cannot be charged with rape at all.

The women who live around you have grown up and been raised by parents and grandparents who lived through incredibly oppressive times. Societal attitudes don't change overnight.

i think its more the case that you are listening to feminist propaganda, which is out of sync with reality.

Then where's the issue?

Well it is an issue that feminists provide cover for female sex offenders. Point was I never said feminists do it in the first place.

Any examples from the last 40 years?

Every time feminists talk about rape they exclude women as perpetrators.

Really? You don't see dudes in tank tops and shorts in the club? Guys shirtless in the streets? Office I'll give you, women have the advantage of being able to wear skirts. But it doesn't change the fact that a part of their body is unfairly policed and sexualised in a way they aren't on men, which leads to women being shamed or even arrested for feeding their baby the way nature intended.

Generally what ever the context whats acceptable for women is more skimpy, see though and sexualized. Stripper fashion is now mainstream for example.

Feminists have blocked legal paternal surrender. Does that mean what I think it means? That a guy can just stop being legally responsible for a child on a whim, without putting it up for adoption? Good. Block that shit.

No thats not what it means.

Well no, men don't grow babies in their bodies so we don't have a medical procedure to remove them.

We don't the right to stop a woman commiting reproductive abuse.

so women not having that right is not oppression. Its more equal to where men are at. Nope. Equality is having full autonomy over your body, not full autonomy over all the parts and functions men have.

If a woman can commit reproductive abuse and take control over a mans labour and life under the threat of violence from the state while she has full rights to chose, he does not have full autonomy over his body and is still oppressed by traditional gender roles. Meanwhile she can have her cake and eat it too..

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The celebrated cooger has come near entirely from female media. Meanwhile an older man with a twenty year old is a pariah in society.

Literally my point. Women celebrate older women snagging younger men. Men celebrate older men snagging younger women. Imagine for a second, if Hillary Clinton was on her 3rd marriage to a man half her age, admitted to grabbing dudes cocks whenever she felt like it and sneaking into younger men's dressing rooms for lolz. We make infinitely more passes for male sexuality, even when it's gross.

If women had no abortion rights they would be equal with men.

No. Just no. Just because men have no biological equivalent to this, doesn't mean you get to reduce women's bodily autonomy to less than that of a corpse. Equality is both genders having total control of their bodily functions, not just the one's they share. Most women don't ejaculate, congratulations, the govt just regulated ejaculation. You can only do it once a fortnight, for procreation's sake. You also have no rights to your Adam's Apple, and can be forced at any time to donate it to science.

Women have more birth control rights and options.

It is also nowhere near as widely accessible as male birth control.

This is a myth

No it isn't, and I'm not going to argue something that's been debated countless times, and always come to the same conclusion.

The men they are married to share their wages with them. Men take less out of the tax system than they put in. Its the opposite for women, so large sums of money are transferred to women from men via the state and relationships. So women have more access to resources.

Lemme guess, you're one of the 'housework isn't real work' crowd. Women claim more welfare because they're typically poorer, this only enforces the undeniable fact that the wage gap exists. Plus, if married women get a share of their husband's wages, then their husband's should get an equal share of their welfare, and therefore there is no welfare gap.

The lesbian premium research shows women are paid more when they work as much as men.

Link? I'm interested.

Women are the majority of voters so they have more political representation.

They get to pick between one misogynist and another. Not the same thing.

They get a much easier ride when they run for office

Is this why one of the most qualified women lost to the least qualified male presidential candidate of all time? How many senators or congressmen are actually congresswomen. How many female heads of state in the western world?

Women control 80% consumer spending so the media is slanted towords women.

Yet it seems these companies are unwilling to listen to their consumers. 80% of consumer spending is a broad term, I'm talking about movies and TV here.

Society excuses womens rapes, not the other way around.

'But he's a good kid', 'Why ruin his career over one mistake', 'She was a slut anyway'

Rape of men is barely spoken about the numbers arent widely collected or reported.

There is not a single credible statistic that has men as victims of rape more than women. And not one that shows women commit rape at anything like the rate men do.

Men and women got the vote at around the same time.

Men were denied it because of wealth. Women were denied it because they were women.

Men invented this for women, and paid for it. Women tend to object to recriprocal rights for men.

I don't see why men inventing it is relevant, given how women were barred from professional careers even more so then than now. What reciprocal rights do womeb object to?

Women are more aggressive in this regard.

False. Women are murdered, raped, abused, and assaulted by men far more than the opposite.

Disrespecting a woman is blasphomy in this culture.

Which is why Mr 'Grab 'Em By The Pussy' is the leader of the free world. We treat women more like children than equals, we either abuse or pedestalise then. Any woman in a professional career will tell you they have to work twice as hard and shout twice as loud. Not to mention the assumption that they're just gonna have kids and leave, the idea that some women take their career seriously is foreign to many (male) employers. Also, as much as the term is abused now, there is a reason the term mansplaining was invented.

So women have more rights than men in this regard. In most countries a woman cannot be charged with rape at all.

Rape meaning penetration. I don't agree with this definition, and I along with many other feminists want it changed. Either way, a woman can be charged with serious sexual assault, which up until recently, a married man couldn't. And the law doesn't say a man cannot be raped, just that a woman can't commit rape.

[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Litrally my point

Society and the media celebrates coogers. Men that do the same are creep shamed.

Im not going to bother going through all these response, you are too determined to paint women and men in traditional stereotypes and have lots of bad information.

I will comment on this though.

Hillary Clinton openly laughed about Gadaffi being raped and murdered with a knife. She got a free pass.

And a large study showed that female candidates get an easier ride through all stages, easier funding etc.

Lesbian premium research - http://bigthink.com/dollars-and-sex/what-explains-the-lesbian-wage-premium

As for relationship violence. Women are in the dock for murdering their partner near as often as men. They have legal privilage and get a lesser sentance, thats why there is a disparity.

Also women more often than men will use a proxy murder.

Modern research is showing women to rape men as often as visa versa. Its just that they get a free pass and feminists tend to handle the data and cover itup.

What reciprocal rights do womeb object to?

National organizations for women backtracked on equality because their support base objected to reforming custody law.

Recriprocal rights as in legal paternal surrender are also roundly rejected.

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

you are too determined to paint women and men in traditional stereotypes and have lots of bad information.

Nope.

coogers

Cougars. You're seeing what you want to see. How many men cheer on cougars? How many respectable women are married to men half their age?

Hillary Clinton openly laughed about Gadaffi being raped and murdered with a knife. She got a free pass.

The murderous dicatator? Yeah, I'll give her a pass for that one too.

And a large study showed that female candidates get an easier ride through all stages, easier funding etc.

Affirmative action? It isn't working apparently. Christ, Hillary only got her shot cos her husband was the President.

Women are in the dock for murdering their partner near as often as men.

Simply untrue. I can find no source that supports this. Everything I'm looking at suggests that men are at least twice as likely to murder their partner. Also, nice moving of the goalposts, I was talking about murder in general, not just domestic murder. You're wrong either way though.

Modern research is showing women to rape men as often as visa versa. Its just that they get a free pass and feminists tend to handle the data and cover itup.

Any evidence of this feminist conspiracy? FBI data shows a significant gender gap in rape cases and reports.

National organizations for women backtracked on equality because their support base objected to reforming custody law.

Is this about how women are the assumed caretakers in divorce cases? 96% of divorce cases are settled out of court, i.e. the two parents after to give custody to the mother. In the 4% of cases where it goes to court, men win as often as women. And feminists are currently fighting to dismember the toxic gender role assignment that paints women as being automatically motherly, and fathers as irrelevant.

Recriprocal rights as in legal paternal surrender are also roundly rejected.

Parental surrender is fucking nuts. Any sane human should object to it.

[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, it's not irrelevant. Men can still be respectable with younger wives. Women can't. You contantly parroting a falsehood doesn't make it so. The fact remains, very few men judge a man for having a younger wife, and many men do judge a woman for the same, which is why toyboys are nowhere near as accepted in society as trophy wives.

You have made exactly the same custody argument twice.

And you have failed to disprove it. Just waxed lyrical about legal privilege with no evidence to support this claim. Parents agree out of court to give the children to the mother for primary custody. Nobody forces him, and if he wanted to fight the case he has an even chance of winning. Where's the discrimination? How do you know men don't fight the case because they don't want to? You do realise that settling out of court in these matters isn't the same as surrendering to the woman. If anything, court is more costly for the mother because women earn less than men.

You dont sound well versed in all this stuff to know what it is you are objecting to.

Parental surrender. The idea that a guy should just be allowed to say he doesn't want to be financially responsible for a child he helped create because he cba. As well as being massively unfair on the child, it's unfair to mothers. Maybe women should be allowed to do the same thing, and force men to raise the child alone? You approve?

[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

When its men with younger women its seen as creepy, when its women with younger men its celebrated.

You can keep saying this, but that doesn't make it true. Men celebrate other men hooking up with younger women. Society as a whole treats it as more normal. You just don't care about that, you only care about the opinions of women, so you assume they're the only opinions that exist. In the real world, as many people are likely to high 5 you as they are shame you for having a younger wife.

The President has a wife half his age. In one of the most watched shows in America, Modern Family, a central character is married to a woman half his age. There are websites where you can legally import a wife half your age from Asia. Outside of girlie nights at cocktail bars, nobody gives a fuck about guys dating younger women. Politicians don't care. Bosses don't care. The only people who care are women, and they do nothing about it because even then, they don't think it's a huge deal. Stop repeating the same platitude as if it's some societal truth because it's not.

you don't know divorcing women recieve things like free legal aid.

Poor people get legal aid. It is still the norm for the father to work, and the mother to stay at home/work part time. Legal aid makes things fair. If the father didn't work, he too would receive aid. Women also staying at home for most of the child's life is also likely a contributing factor to why they often get custody. If only there was a movement challenging these gender roles...

Or that women get the legal privilage of full custody as a starting point.

Yet men still win half the time. Maybe courts are actually biased in favour of men...

[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Standin' over by the record machine Looking like a model On the cover of a magazine She's too cute to be a minute over seventeen

-Chuck Berry, recently mourned in the national and international media

You won't find a male version of samantha from sex in the city portrayed in pop culture

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jay+and.gloria.modern.family&client=ms-android-samsung&source=android-browser&prmd=ivsn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj20qm2i53TAhXKDMAKHfNlAP0Q_AUICCgB&biw=320&bih=406#imgrc=fzn14-YeG3h2vM:

I'm not arguing anymore. All you do is

A) make some general, unprovable point that you treat as objective fact

then

B) argue against some strawman that you invented

And no matter what I say im reply, you just repeat one or both of the above. All of your comments throughout this thread have been indistinguishable from one another and I'm done.

[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But earlier you condoned a political leader laughing about a man who was raped to death with a knife.

Yeah, I did. Gaddafi was an evil dictator and I couldn't care less how he died. Having a sense of humour you find inappropriate doesn't make me closed minded. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Interesting blog. I don't think it says much I didn't already know. Firstly, it says nothing about getting away with it. It says that women are found innocent more often. You're basing you're assumption that they therefore get away with it on the erroneous premise that they actually did it in the first place. You're innocent until proven guilty, and certainly innocent when found innocent. The article also mentions that roughly 70% of the killings documented are first degree murder, 20% are second degree, and 10% manslaughter. The article doesn't break these statistics down by gender however, so one could hypothesise that the larger proportion of women who don't go to prison, or do but for less time is due to the larger proportion of women who commit the less serious crime. Either way, I never disputed that women tend towards lighter sentences. What I said was that men commit more violent crime, and this article proves me right. As I suspected, over 40% of the female defendants had been attacked by their husbands prior to the killing. Accounting for this, only 30% of unprovoked spousal murders are female on male.

So to recap, as a response to the objective fact that men commit the majority of violent crime and attack women more than women attack men, you said women kill their spouses as often as men. Not only did this ignore all other forms of violence and all other male-female relationships, you were still wrong. Again. What else ya got?

[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Again you condoned Clinton celebrating the rape and murder of someone.

Its true that men commit more violent crime. Men are under more economic and social pressure. Economic and social pressure leads to violent crime, which is why you generally see more of it in lower social classes.

As I suspected, over 40% of the female defendants had been attacked by their husbands prior to the killing.

They said they did and if they say that, they can get off. Its a feminist legal defense - lawyers will cite "battered womens syndrome"and tell juries that women that say they felt fear or were attacked before hand are not guilty of murder.

Plenty of men that murdered their partners would have been attacked by the woman at some point before that.

But you aren't the type to apply the same standards to men and women are you?

If a male politician was laughing about the rape and murder of a woman it would be terrible to you (it would be) - but when Clinton does its aok (in your mind).

Women are accused of murdering their spouce at roughly the same rate as men, but have legal privilage and thats why there is a large disparity.

Women aloso

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Again you condoned Clinton celebrating the rape and murder of someone

If anyone deserved it, he did. Have you never made an off colour joke in your life?

Its true that men commit more violent crime. Men are under more economic and social pressure.

Then men being the victims of violent crime is not the fault of feminism. It simply means the toxic gendered expectations on men need to be revised. Which, coincidentally, is exactly what modern feminism is doing.

They said they did and if they say that, they can get off. Its a feminist legal defense - lawyers will cite "battered womens syndrome"and tell juries that women that say they felt fear or were attacked before hand are not guilty of murder.

Except you can't just say that, you need an element of proof or it would be thrown out of court.

Plenty of men that murdered their partners would have been attacked by the woman at some point before that.

Proof?

If a male politician was laughing about the rape and murder of a woman it would be terrible to you (it would be) - but when Clinton does its aok (in your mind).

Wanna hear my collection of murder/rape jokes about Thatcher?

Women are accused of murdering their spouce at roughly the same rate as men

But are found guilty less often due to differing circumstances and not being guilty as often. FTFY

[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If a man kills his wife and claims its because he felt fear and provides no evidence should he not be charged with murder?

I don't think any abuse victim should be charged with murder if they were acting in defence.

If a man laughed about the rape and murder of hillary clinton would you also support him? After all she and her husband is responsible for the deaths of 1000s of people.

Firstly, in what way is Hillary responsible for her husband's actions as president? Secondly, it would depend on who was making the joke. I would still support Jeremy Corbyn if he made violent jokes about Theresa May or Thatcher in his own time. But if Donald Trump made a joke about raping Hillary or Merkel, I'd add it to the list of things I abhor about him because he has far fewer redeeming features. You can't just take one joke and judge someone's entire character for it, and frankly I'm bored of discussing it. Hillary thinks it's funny that a mass murderer got a knife up his arse, and I couldn't give less of a fuck.

She did not push to did not invade libia for gadaffis for past crimes, they invaded to support the western banking cartel and big oil.

Ooh lala someone's gonna get laid in college

[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So I read the article

Behind the clever facade of twitter feminists and social justice warriors you will find the true movers and shakers of the feminist movement calling themselves things like Women’s Legal Education and Action Fund (LEAF) or Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies (CAEFS)

This has nothing to do with the case. He just goes off on a tangent, then returns to talking about the murders and provides no link between these supposedly shady feminist lawyers and the case in hand. The best he can come up with is the testimony of one radical feminist. He even admits she got a plea bargain because of corruption and wanting an easy collar, not misandry. What's more, 300,000 people petitioned for her to lose her plea; if just 2 feminists signed that petition then feminists did twice as much to get her locked up than they did to get her off (with the help of cops, lawyers and a judge who statistically will have all been men)

[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Kerb_Poet1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ee4m1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So? Plenty of things influence the legal system, and there's no evidence that feminist influence is anything other than positive.

You are a casual feminist, which means you have no clue about feminist jursiprudence. You just blindly fight on its behalf.

Blocking equality in custody, inventing legal defenses for murder, eroding the presumption of innocence, secretive family courts that deny fathers rights. Domestic violence laws that result in male victims being seen as the guilty ones. Cathrine McKinnion's jursipridence (the dominance model) is worse than sharia, and is gaining mopre and more traction.

When white feminists instigated kangeroo courts in the jim crow era and depicted black masculinity as rape culture it wasn't positive, its not positive today either.

You're doing that thing again, where you provide no evidence and instead state claims as if they're facts

Battered women's defense exists and is used frequently. It was you who pointed out that women were getting away with murder by claiming they were attacked.

Not allowing a thing to live in your body isn't the same as murdering it. Are you guilty of murder everytime you don't donate blood?

I was talking about murdering babies after they are born. Like the battered women's defense that allows women to kill their partners and not be classified as murderers, the same can happen when they kill children.

So offical women's murder stastics are misleading.

Women can murder babies and claim depression and it won't result in a murder stastic.

[–]IFuckedZoeQuinn[S] 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

Ah yea, "productive discussions of men's issues."

Such as....

Banning a male rape victim for being angry at feminists minimizing and dismissing his rape because he was raped by a woman:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/3fqhe1/is_there_any_kind_of_masculinity_other_than_toxic/ctr07s1/

"All men are rapists"

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/3fr96h/i_want_a_twentyfour_hour_truce_during_which_there/

False rape accusations aren't worth discussing, let's talk about women instead

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/3frvcl/false_rape_accusations/

All men are violent

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/3fszxu/malepattern_violence/

Gendered solutions for problems aren't cool if it's a problem men face. If it's women facing the problem though, a gendered solution is completely fine

https://np.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/49447e/prof_starrs_research_shows_large_unexplained/d0ox8w2/

Feminists prove themselves full of shit once again.

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Nope. They're as any reasonable person would define them - i.e. we don't allow people to wander around getting aggressive, insulting or otherwise being a negative presence.

negative presence

That is a rubber concept if I have ever heard any. This can mean just about anything.

What's the deal with this "yeah yeah okay but where's the woman blaming" shit? Seriously every thread or post that involves criticising ML involves "they don't even hate women!@!"

So, talking about what women do to perpetuate male gender roles and what they should change is hatred towards women. I think the question of why more men aren't interested in your sub just got answered.

Tell me, is the same kind of discusion on male gender roles and how men gender police each other labeled as hatred of men in your sub?

Also, you just linked a post - not a specific thread.

This argument doesn't even make sense. You were given a thread were your sub had the chance to discus female gender policing of men, your sub chose not to. Instead of dicusing this, you start discusing technicalities.

[–]KaonPlus 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

That is a rubber concept if I have ever heard any. This can mean just about anything.

What you mean is that you think it can mean just about anything, because that suits your opinion. If you think that having a rule against people being unpleasant to each other is so vague and ambiguous then you're the kind of person the rule is in place for.

So, talking about what women do to perpetuate male gender roles and what they should change is hatred towards women. I think the question of why more men aren't interested in your sub just got answered.

Nah I didn't say that. The fact that you think there has never been any mention of women's contribution to gender roles says it all really - like every other crusading MRA you're going off hearsay.

This argument doesn't even make sense. You were given a thread were your sub had the chance to discus female gender policing of men, your sub chose not to. Instead of dicusing this, you start discusing technicalities.

You said "thread". I assumed you meant what you said and had made a mistake. But unsurprisingly you're assuming everything to be an attack, which is again a perfect example of why we require people not to be dicks to each other.

[–]TheGrayPillMan1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Dewey_Darl1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No single topic I have ever witnessed has ever touched on any actions whatsoever by women.

I'm genuinely kind of curious about what went through your mind when you typed this. You realize it basically destroys your credibility, right?

Literally the very first post on /r/menslib is about a man who is being sexually abused by his mother (who could really use some support, by the way, if you have a minute to write a compassionate reply). The eighth post is specifically about female abuse against men, centered around a narrative of one woman reinforcing the stupid bumbling, husband trope. The 11th post is about whether single-mothered households are inherently worse for boys because of a lack of a male role model. On this recent post, the top comment is about how women's dating preferences encourage men to stick to their gender role. The top comment in this recent post says the same thing.

I'm sure you can form your own opinion, as you say, but I would encourage you to actually do so. Instead of coming back at me with something like "that's not what I meant" or "but those posts are shitty in some other way", take a step back and consider whether your comments are actually accomplishing your goal. Are you actually convincing anyone who doesn't already hate us, or are you pushing away fence sitters with your clear disregard for the truth?

The funny thing is, there's so many valid critiques of men's lib, but you guys always go for the high-risk high-reward but easily disprovable talking point, like "I've been browsing ML for a long time, and no post I've ever seen has ever come close to discussing negative actions by women", or "they'll ban you for discussing the duluth model". In the future, I would go with something like "the sub is highly Americentric", or "they don't have enough action alerts", or "good posts often get ignored".

The current strategy isn't working out to well for you guys. A year ago, our sub was half the size of this one. Now it's almost twice the size. We're on a website full of users notorious for their hatred of feminism, and yet our pro-feminist sub is growing consistently and steadily. You're going to have to be a little more thoughtful if you're going to change that reality.

[–]TheGrayPillMan1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm genuinely kind of curious about what went through your mind when you typed this. You realize it basically destroys your credibility, right? Literally the very first post on /r/menslib is about a man who is being sexually abused by his mother (who could really use some support, by the way, if you have a minute to write a compassionate reply). The eighth post is specifically about female abuse against men, centered around a narrative of one woman reinforcing the stupid bumbling, husband trope. The 11th post is about whether single-mothered households are inherently worse for boys because of a lack of a male role model. On this recent post, the top comment is about how women's dating preferences encourage men to stick to their gender role. The top comment in this recent post says the same thing.

The top three posts on /r/menslib/new

Weekly Free Talk Friday
How do you guys deal with sexist remarks and toxic masculinity when in a hyper masculine environment?
Experiencing internalised oppression, and addressing degrading comments

The top 3 posts on /r/menslib/

My mildly disabled ex-foster brother [20M] is being abused by his parents and the police don't believe him. What should I (18F) do??
Weekly Free Talk Friday thread!
How do you guys deal with sexist remarks and toxic masculinity when in a hyper masculine environment?

The 11th post is about whether single-mothered households are inherently worse for boys because of a lack of a male role mode

Which as you yourself can see is instantly shot down.

On this recent post, the top comment is about how women's dating preferences encourage men to stick to their gender role.

Which is also instantly shot down.

In the future, I would go with something like "the sub is highly Americentric", or "they don't have enough action alerts", or "good posts often get ignored".

This is what you have decided are valid problems. What I would think were valid talking points would be something like how I, living in a country with publicly financed healthcare is expected to pay for artificial insemination for single and lesbian women, while I am told that having children is not a right, and being single and/or lesbian is not having a disease.

Or how it is an enormous problem that women don't study engineering and science, but there is no problem at all with the total dominance of women in higher education in all other fields.

You're going to have to be a little more thoughtful if you're going to change that reality.

Nope, I don't have to do a single thing. I just have to wait until your movement gets big enough and you start tearing yourself apart over who is the most ideologically pure.

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Because they actually have productive discussions of men's issues.

They actually don't majority of the time. Very few if any of their discussions lead to anything productive. Their discussions end up usually agreeing with feminism and circle jerking on it.

Feminism has been an extraordinarily successful movement

That's debatable to say the least. Feminism has had successes, but it has had numerous fails as well.

why wouldn't a movement with similar (gender-based) goals model itself after a successful predecessor?

Uh maybe because what works for women doesn't work for men? Why feminists think their model let alone theory can simply be applied to men is beyond me. Feminism from the get go was built upon the female point of view, something that is still the case today. Why would one build a men's right movement after a movement that's from the female pov and not the male one? That is just counterproductive really.

as for forbidding questioning or criticizing feminist theory, it's to keep conversation productive

Because circle jerks are productive conversations.

I personally support many men's issues

While its great you support men's issues the question is do you do anything about it. But when it comes to men's issues you feminists are never never going to admit men have it worse than women in any shape or way. It goes against your self interest. I be quiet surprised if feminists started doing this really. As the whole "women have it worse no matter what" mindset in feminism is strong to say the least.

the MRM-- and my theory is that this is a lingering remnant of PUA culture-- cares way, way too much what feminists think about them. they need to stop circlejerking over "will feminists accept and support us?" and pursue their own agendas.

MRM is to a degree have actually. If it wasn't for the MRM online activism of constantly bring up men's issues, feminists would not be talking about men's issues as nearly as much as they have been of late. More so without the MRM there be next to no curtailing of feminism. What I mean by that is the MRM is pointing out all that is wrong/bad with feminism (tho they often go overboard on it or don't think enough), and make noise on it and force feminists to basically address it.

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You're getting hung up on the part where some have more power to inflict serious damage with those prejudices than others...

I'm really not. That concept makes sense to me, I just think it lacks a great, great deal of nuance - seemingly deliberately, so that our "friends" seeking a more socially "just" society can make cheap shots at people who happen to both be white AND own a penis whenever they dare disagree with the idea that we should scrap markets, property rights, free speech, due process, "reasonable doubt," etc. because not everyone is equal.

The "power" that a white garbageman has over someone of another race isn't much, but that doesn't stop your crowd from excoriating him for his inherent nature and blaming him for the possible sins of his ancestors. And then, on the gender front, you guys just as much as completely fucking ignore the power women have over men to point to old white men sitting in seats of power, many of whom cater to the feminist imperative, and who the up-and-coming generation of white men are certainly not poised to assume, thanks to your cultural zeitgeist demonizing them.

...and instead of debating who in good faith, you attack any observation of prejudice that doesn't fit into your ideological agenda.

When that "observation of prejudice" is actually just a person being a profound douchebag, yes, I will attack it.

You're as much a SJW as the far left variety.

I don't think I am, actually. You might have a point if I were a card carrying member of the K.K.K. or the neo-nazis or the alt-right (but then, I disagree with the left on one or more things, so I pretty much am, right?), but I actually can see some arguments the left makes and accept that they have some merit. I'm just not able to as easily overlook the limitations imposed by economic scarcity and the implications of our innate nature as easily as those left-S.J.W.'s can.

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I'm really not. That concept makes sense to me, I just think it lacks a great, great deal of nuance - seemingly deliberately,

That's because the same idiots you'll find all over the internet and in politics, wreck any ideology when they get their hands on it.

Many are just kids, so that's go to be kept in mind. Others are looking for excuses for their own prejudices.

But there's a core of people who just lack experience, and who've been hurt. They're usually approachable, if you acknowledge what you have in common.

But for example -

The problem with intersectional feminism, as practiced by people who haven't thought it through, is that reality's still pretty basic in some areas of the US, and not others. Like, if you're in a town where the cops frisk you for just existing, you're pretty aware of how black you are. And you're going to read the news with that awareness. If you're the only white kid in a bad neighborhood? You might be more forgiving of simplistic conservative arguments. Each of these two people are dealing with prejudice, each of them is looking for someone who understands, and allows them to vent.

And if they ever meet each other, the odds are pretty bad that we're going to get an intelligent conversation out of it. Not unless they were exposed to the entire forest of possibilities in human interaction.

Things can fall apart fast.

The same is true if you're a woman who was aggressively questioned by the police who misplaced your rape kit, and then buried the crime to make their statistics look better. Or if you're a guy whose rape was just met with a shrug. There's always a chance they could team up, but the odds are also good that they're going to be the asshole each other imagine when it comes to feminist and anti-feminist.

And that's why I see you as an SJW. You attack feminism, instead of bad feminism. Your reaction to my concerns about Jeff Sessions and Donald Trump was to tie it into every single time someone has been falsely accused.

You don't deal with other perspectives well at all.

In that way, you remind me of the things I like least about some folks in the left.

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Title	Since we've established that feminism isn't concerned with solving men's issues, what's the point of /r/Menslib?
Author	IFuckedZoeQuinn
Upvotes	9
Comments	237
Date	March 23, 2017 1:38 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/611w5h/since_weve_established_that_feminism_isnt/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/since-weve-established-that-feminism-isnt.269324 https://theredarchive.com/post/269324

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