Your feminism is shit

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Personally, feminism is fighting until both genders are equal.

This does not even mean anything.

So if men aren’t getting what we need but women are, we need to fix that.

Over feminism's dead body.

If women aren’t getting what they need but men are, we need to fix that. Yknow what I mean?

You don't live in the real world?

It should be equal.

What should be equal?

Women shouldn’t get more than men.

Pay attention to the 'pay gap', feminism demands that women in the aggregate earn as much as men in the aggregate, this is the equality you seem to be supporting.

Women shouldn’t get more than men. Men shouldn’t get more than women.

Men work more, they work longer hours and they work for most of their lives, and women are heavily subsidized by the state, the federal government, and divorce, so you want to pay men less for working longer and harder, you got issues.

[–]dissociative-daniel 7 points8 points9 points 7 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Oh no that’s not what I mean. That’s not the equality I’m supporting. My apologies. It should be on a person to person basis, not gender. If a man works more and longer hours, he should definitely be paid more. Same for women. I’m not really educated enough to talk about that though.

I find myself focusing on equality when it comes to stereotypes and mental health because that’s what affects me the most. For example, it’s harder for guys to talk about their emotions than women due to the environment we’ve created. Also, there seems to be less mental health resources that help specifically men. It looks like there are more all women residential treatment centers than all men residential treatment centers. My knowledge is limited but I know it’s right to make sure that men have equal access to resources.

[–]tenchineuro 9 points10 points11 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Oh no that’s not what I mean. That’s not the equality I’m supporting.

The word 'equality by itself means nothing, and the equality feminism seeks destroys constitutional and civil rights, as well as any concept of fairness or justice.

My apologies. It should be on a person to person basis, not gender.

Then it has nothing whatsoever to do with feminism.

If a man works more and longer hours, he should definitely be paid more. Same for women. I’m not really educated enough to talk about that though.

Maybe you should work on that education then, feminist words and works are a matter of public record, so look them up.

I find myself focusing on equality when it comes to stereotypes and mental health because that’s what affects me the most. For example, it’s harder for guys to talk about their emotions than women due to the environment we’ve created.

We've? Feel free to talk about how you feel to your wife or girlfriend, but don't blame me when she dumps or divorces you.

Also, there seems to be less mental health resources that help specifically men.

This is true for everything across the board.

My knowledge is limited but I know it’s right to make sure that men have equal access to resources.

You won't get that by supporting feminism, you'll get more of what we've got right now.

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Unfortunately your feminism crew isn't all on the same page, while many mean well there's a fair share of feminists who are downright mean. Feminism doesn't allow itself and it's motives to be questioned, and as a movement acts holier than anything, which is a recipe for disaster. While you sit there and say "Feminism is for everyone", other feminists are saying "Kill all men" and ignoring our requests to stop that single phrase to murder an entire gender as a butt of a terrible joke.

Get your house in order. As a group stop letting these vile women rule and speak out against them before you utter "feminism is fighting for everyone" anymore, question your actions and the ramifications of your objectives and listen to the feelings of all involved before you try to say feminism is for equality ever again. You want proof of what I mean, keep watching the title ix scandals unfold, it's only going to get worse with the upcoming possibility of class action lawsuits. Feminism had a strong hand in the changes a decade ago and were warned of what men are going through with today with false accusations in colleges. It's been proven in court endlessly that title ix has become a catastrophe. And feminism has done worse than nothing, it has insisted that these are all good changes. No reform needed, men do not need more protections to fair hearings. The good feminists are strangely silent on this issue, they helped create this disaster and aren't lending a single hand to clear it up. Men's lives are being destroyed by feminism's actions, and nothing is being done by feminism to help clean up the mess.

So stop your fellow feminists from saying, "Feminism is for everyone". Because it isn't and never will, it's too lofty of a goal and asks for too much selflessness out of too many women in it's ranks harmed by men. Feminism will never be able to represent men when so many seek it out who have been attacked, harassed, manipulated, raped, and had friends/family murdered by men. It's delusional to think and expect these women would put aside their pain and support men in any way, they're not in a place they'd be able to, they have too much hurt in their heart. So stop saying this phrase, it's not doing anyone any favors or making it more true by repeating it.

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And how is feminism supposed to stop a barbaric, misogynistic religion? Or suddenly change a Third World country into a first or second world country?

In African villages women are only allowed to cook, wash and care for their children and husband's who go hunting all day.

You're just going to ignore the fact that the men HAVE to hunt all day to find food, because it fits your narrative? Cool.

Are you saying feminism is destroying a country?

I'm saying it's doing its damnedest to destroy the US.

Just because some sour asshats are misandrists doesn't mean every one of them is

Funny, when I point this fact out in regards to how only a small portion of alt Righters are vocal doesn't mean every conservative is like that, or that just because a few men are horrible excuses for human beings it's not a representation of all men I get told that I'm trying to "#notallmen".

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r/menslib is pretty cool though and they're pro feminist and theyre all about focusing on men's issues in society

....

Why are you still pretending I was talking about menslib

This is your brain on πth dimensional feminism.

Also nah i didn't get banned because no one is getting triggered.

Looks like the comment is deleted.

So.... Yeah....

But anyway you're not who I'm writing this for anyway, I'm writing this shit here so people can see how much of an echochamber this sub is so everyone can see you're not immune to the same problems every angry movement has.

I mean they'll see you lying and engaging in bad faith and your comments in feminist subs being deleted after you swore that wouldn't happen. So....

Villifying people who you disagree with as enemies and pretending you have nothing in common with them lol.

We don't actually have anything in common and the "disagreement" is on if men deserve basic human rights.

[–]lmao19691 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Comment isn't deleted.

Also you're quoting completely separate arguments now which is a pretty good indicator that you're not trying to have a reasonable discussion, you're only interested in throwing accusations around.

I'm not interested in being pigeonholed. I'm only explaining that I largely agree with some feminist opinions, disagree with others. I also largely agree with some MRA opinions and disagree with others.

I'm not interested in convincing you of anything either. I'm only trying to be visible so that other MRAs can see that contrary to the echochamber circlejerk, you absolutely can find common ground between the two movements. I personally think a healthy worldview requires the use of both subs r/Menslib and r/MensRights. Both subs have their blindspots and echochamber issues. Neither sub is perfect. Both subs have something very valuable to add to the discussion on the advocacy for men's rights and both subs could use some cross pollination to prevent extremism.

I'm arguing for balance, you're arguing for essentialism, we're not going to find common ground. That's fine.

Just in case it wasn't clear already, I would love it if r/MensLib could have more sensible moderating policies. Here's to hoping for a better communication between the communities in the near future 🥂

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[–][deleted]1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh I hear you. Not a feminist myself but I look around the manosphere and see a surprising amount of behavious that makes me think "well arent you the salty little highschooler I used to be"

For a non-feminist to tell you that you aren't a feminist because you don't fit into the little feminist box in their head, that's just silly.

I applaud you for being here and hope that you are able to separate the people who try to post genuinely helpful content, and those with a bone to pick and blame to throw around

I gotta ask though, what do you mean by "this sub is extremely hostile to feminists"? The guy you dealt with yesterday sure doesn't represent the sub, as most here don't act that way.

Of course there are always bad eggs (r/feminism has it's own share of bad eggs, I hope you'd agree) but I don't notice as much hostility here toward feminists as I do toward misandry.

[–]lmao19691 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Hey man I appreciate your supportive words!

people who try to post genuinely helpful content,

Absolutely! I don't like the dominant culture that has existed here for a while but I think it's changing for the better, and quite fast too if I may add, and that's thanks to the open minded MRAs such as yourself. And there's a growing number of this type of MRA and I'm so happy to see this happen because this movement needs to be more mainstream (for both men and womens sake because men's rights are human rights) and that's only going to happen if the hate and anger is reduced.

I say this sub is hostile to feminists because of the hostility I've had for just saying I'm both feminist and an MRA

Like....whoa! OMG “ya’ll...”

Some guy insulting my word choice

What an idiot. and Feminist troll. and

I have been dealing with feminists for at least 30 years of my life, you are absolutely correct when you infer I have no kindness to give a feminist.

I will not show kindness to someone who chooses to wilfully be part of a hateful ideology, like feminism.

and

that broads rant must literally be the most retarded pile of gibberish I've ever read and I've seen a lot of crap in my days

and

I really hate pussies like you

moron

And

you're an absolute cunt

And

Gtfo

and a weird guy blowing up my inbox with messages like

Good Morning!

How did my favorite widdle trollie sweep?

I saw you trying to promote the feminism sub.

Too funny.

And

Society&civilization was built by men, Its called a Man's World for a reason. Instead of being grateful to men for building roads, houses and computer equipment you use to babble, you whine about how "It's a man's world and its unfair"

And

stop shitting up this sub with troll feminist claptrap

And

but to be any form of feminist requires at least a bit of misandry.

And

Found the NPC

I tried to avoid quoting the same users twice. Let me know if you need links with context or screenshots.

Anyway all this stuff (and more btw I just can't get to it all) and the way that you get ganged up on multiple angry people who then follow you to all your other threads in the sub, this shit just makes feminists want to stay away obviously. Yknow what I mean? It's just too much hostility for a proper truth seeking argument.

Truth seeking requires that people are civil and not emotionally charged or defensive. And it's extremely hard to do that here.

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Idk what do you want me to say? Um patriarchal is an accurate term to describe our society and feminists are pretty right about a lot of things in my opinion. Can I prove it? Yeah I can.

Idk what you want me to say or do? Convince you? Not gonna happen. All I can do is say things I believe.

It's a fact that most of the world's political and economic power lies in men.

It's a fact that women have had to slowly push for improved equality with men over the last several hundred years.

[It's a fact that traditional gender roles put complex human beings into rigid boxes and people are punished for not fitting into those boxes.] (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328390783_Boys_Bullying_and_Gender_Roles_How_Hegemonic_Masculinity_Shapes_Bullying_Behavior)

Umm... What else? It's a fact that men are more likely to be beat up severely or killed when they act or dress feminine.

It's a fact that men are expected to not be vulnerable or weak.

It's a fact that women are expected to be more nice and smile and be more submissive and less aggressive than men.

It's a fact that often men who have been raped by women will not be taken seriously.

It's a fact that prison rape is a massive tragedy that [everyone jokes about because our society is fucked up] (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=2ahUKEwjK9rnDpdXjAhVPShUIHSrLA2wQwqsBMAB6BAgHEAU&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov).

I believe that it is more ethical to allow pregnant people to decide for themselves whether or not to keep a pregnancy.

Those are my beliefs. We can argue them one by one if youd like, but be prepared to have to read statistics and moral arguments. Sometimes people just don't agree with each other on moral points. That's ok. We're bound to be in disagreement to some extent. Are you down to talk about all this in a polite way or nah?

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They were already there, but the way I see it, feminism enforces them pretty strongly. There was a point where as a movement, it tried to oppose them, but when a movement is largely about proving victimhood, and that becomes the sole focus, it causes a lot of harm. Feminism tells women that they are less safe and respected than they actually are, so they react accordingly. The resulting anger is also a big component in supporting lack of empathy towards men, to the point where supporting additional rights for men where necessary is considered an attack on women.

So yes, we need to talk about feminism, because it's a pretty big deal when it comes to the discussion on gender equality.

Am I worried about men's rights becoming the same way? Definitely. But I'm personally going to do my best to oppose that happening.

[–]lmao1969-1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]lmao1969-2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Maybe hateful isn't the right word. Toxic and hostile is probably better. There's a big dash of hate in there too. But that's just my take on the overall impressions I get from this sub and that's going to be influenced by what I consider toxic, hateful and shitty. I think the focus on feminism and women is shitty, useless and hostile. I think the lack of diversity in thought is crap. You probably like those things. We're not going to agree on this. Not sure what kind of facts I can link to but let's try.

If you're curious I saw a post on r/menslib where some guy did his PhD thesis on the language used on r/menslib vs. r/MensRights. It's pretty interesting.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/c289kp/im_a_researcherformer_grad_student_who_just/

Reddit’s men’s rights community (/r/MensRights) has been criticized for the promotion of misogynistic language, toxic masculinity and discourses that reinforce alt-right ideologies. Conversely, the men’s liberation (/r/MensLib) community integrates inclusive politics, intersectionality and masculinity within a broad umbrella of self-reflection that suggests toxic masculinity harms men as well as women.

We use machine learning text classifiers, keyword frequencies, and qualitative approaches first to distinguish these two subreddits, and second to interpret the differences ideologically rather than topically. We further integrate platform metadata (referred to as ‘platform signals’) to distinguish the subreddits. These signals help us understand how similar terms can be used to arrive at different interpretations of gender and discrimination. Where /r/MensLib tends to see masculinity as an adjective and women as peers, /r/MensRights views being a man as an essential quality, men as the target of discrimination, and women as sources of personalized grievances.

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The problem here is that the study in question compares the language used by one lightly moderated subreddit with that of a heavily moderated one and interprets the differences in language use between MR and ML as an indication of differences in ideology and toxicity between those who frequent the subreddits. On the other hand, moderation, which I would think should be a huge factor to consider in the study considering the vastly different mod policies between both subs, is hardly, if ever, touched on as an explanation for the differences of language. If you ban users who go against the grain then yes, you will essentially be creating an echo chamber that only reflects certain points of view.

The issue is not the results they got, but how they chose to interpret these results. Are they really necessarily comparing a "toxic" subreddit to a "respectful" one or are they just comparing a lightly moderated subreddit to a heavily moderated one?

[–]lmao19691 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In summation, the discursive field of /r/MensRights positions men as acted upon by a feminized society, whereas /r/MensLib is more focused on actions men can take to liberate themselves from the expectations of traditional mas- culine roles. This is directly reflected in perhaps the most interesting finding from this study: that /r/MensRights discourse devotes very little attention to masculinity as a concept, to the extent that the term is among the statisti- cally strongest predictors in the machine learning models. This simple observation captures both the essentialist bina- rism of the MRM—where gender is understood in terms of a man-woman opposition, rather than a masculine-feminine spectrum—as well as the MRM’s outward-facing anger and lack of introspection.

Personally I would have included something more about the moderating but I just figure it's still fair enough to say "these are how the people in each sub are using their time and energy, one talks more about _ and the other about __". Like I'm sure the moderating had an effct no doubt but it just ends up suggesting that if the MensRights subreddit wants to stop being so anger - focused and lacking so much introspection they can take maybe try learning from what r/menslib are doing. But that's just my take. Personally I still agree with the authors that the MLM is ultimately better for talking about masculinity as a concept and MRM is where you go where you wanna bitch about feminism. No surprises there.

[–]Halafax2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]lmao19690 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Not a good analogy. They are both subreddits with groups of people who type. Comparing their language shows differences in how they talk and what they talk about. You'll argue that the more heavy moderation in one changes the speech, sure, but without that moderation than you'd just have two MensRights subreddits since they're massively outnumbered.

If they don't enforce the rules, they don't have a community that fits the very purpose of the sub. It's like if I go to r/AskHistorians, I'm glad to see that it's heavily moderated because it helps make the community more niche and relevant to the subs intended function, as a space for accurate and up to date academic historians answers to questions.

Anyway, I'm unconvinced by your argument. The study compared two different subreddits and their language. The conclusions are useful within their respective contexts. r/Menslib, as a result of being pro feminist, discuss women in a different way than r/MensRights. There's no denying that. The author did a great job and I hope more research like this using machine learning gets done so we can keep exposing how toxic some places are to women and other groups.

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From what I've seen, their "mens rights" is actually a very gynocentric, carefully controlled version of the subject as a token "Hey, we care about men too, see?" that doesn't really hit on major issues, BECAUSE they conflict with feminist ideology, which simply isn't allowed. Again, men's rights is very concerned with feminism by nature, because there is a LOT of conflict of interest, and feminism is bigger and more powerful. For example, if you wanted to discuss, say, the empathy gap, or how women who prey upon young boys are treated by the legal system on menslib, or any other largely feminist sub, you'd be banned, because those issues conflict with feminist ideology. However, these are major issues that need to be addressed, and in particular, the empathy gap is a CORE men's rights issue. I also see a lot of whataboutism there, "well x isn't really a men's issue because y happens to women". You have to be a feminist primarily, and men's rights come second, or you're not welcome.

Also, this sub has a lot of women. Doesn't really take being here for very long to notice that. It's probably pretty close to the demographics of any non-political sub.

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People should be in power based on merit only,

That's exactly what happened, Men are naturally better at grabbing power. Men dominate STEM&Powerful industries by MERIT. There's no conspiracy to keep women down, women keep themselves down by expecting men to do ALL the shit and when we do ALL the shit, YOU whine that we control everything! Dammed if we do, dammed if we don't!!

Society&civilization was built by men, Its called a Man's World for a reason. Instead of being grateful to men for building roads, houses and computer equipment you use to babble, you whine about how "It's a man's world and its unfair" WELL, you're free to build your OWN world! Build your own roads, build your own houses, build your own government&Army.

No one's stopping Women from joining STEM or heading a giant company all by themselves, no one's stopping women from becoming firefighters or soliders or plumbers! So stop nagging, and make your own New Themyscira.

[–]lmao19691 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's not how that all works buddy. Everything works together. Men would be nothing without women. Women would be nothing without men. Yin and yang. What you're describing is a extremely warped and biased worldview.

Gender roles only made sense up to a certain point. But now that our society has advanced, we don't need men to be the only ones in power anymore.

Women are joining STEM. The ones who are in there say the men are fucking awful to them. It's a hostile environment. Science backs this up. But they're making themselves heard and now men are being careful about mansplaining, manterrupting, etc. They have no choice. Everyone is aware that these things happen now. It's not 1980 anymore. Shit has changed big time.

Now that we're ready to move on with society and free ourselves from gender roles it's not that easy. Change happens slowly. And it's continuing to happen every day. Women are outnumbering men in university. Women are entering STEM way more these days than decades ago. Women are making huge progress in politics. Gender roles are dying and the patriarchy is slowly but surely dying with it. Women have been increasing their power and money over the last century. Power begets power and money begets money. Prestige begets prestige.

MRAs can't stop societal change. And you're feeling the power slipping away everyday. Once people get a taste for power and respect there's literally no going back.

But anyway if we all thought like you then that means we shouldn't do anything to help struggling boys in school. And we shouldn't do anything to help lower income children get better outcomes in life with scholarships. Your worldview is unpopular because no one benefits from it but the people who already have power.

Like I said earlier, unjustified hierarchies will inevitably collapse in a world where we don't value unjustified hierarchies. Unless y'all start a violent oppressive war against women, there's literally no reversing this lol

[–]RockmanXX3 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What do you mean by "We"? i don't care who is in power as long he/she isn't abusing it. You seem to have an agenda against men, you cannot stand men being in power, that's YOUR Problem. I'd vote for any smart female presidential candidate, you seem like the idiot who would vote for a woman just because you hate seeing men in power.

The ones who are in there say the men are fucking awful to them

BULLSHIT, Men are twice as nice to women than they are to an average man. You have NO IDEA what it is like being a man!

being careful about mansplaining, manterrupting

Did you use those words UN-IRONICALLY?

Your worldview is unpopular

EVERYONE admits that its a MAN'S World. That's why you Feminist harpies always wail about "Muh Patriarchy" Cus you can't stand the fact that Men created the society and they're the ones who run it. Instead of telling Women to contribute more to society, all you femnazis do is bitch about men being men and demand for privileges AS IF we haven't done enough for Women already. We literally died by the millions to protect your kind and this is the "gratitude" we get.

Power begets power and money begets money. Prestige begets prestige.

I like how you omitted the most important part, RESPONSIBILITY. Typical Feminist, you only want power for power's sake and none of the responsibility.

But anyway if we all thought like you then that means we shouldn't do anything to help struggling boys in school.

Did you miss the part where i said "Men in Power DO NOT ACT IN THE INTEREST OF OTHER MEN?".. You're the one who's running on the assumption that men being in power is in ANY WAY bad for Women.

Men having power in no way affects the ability of women to have every rights they want in a society, even the most immoral ones like keeping children away from fathers. Also, its nice to see how you're admitting that Feminism isn't about equal rights its about "WE WANT MORE POWER".

Gender roles are dying

Yes, Feminism is making men&women hate each other and they're divorcing and kids are growing up without fathers. GOOD JOB, Feminism! You've destroyed "Gender Roles", now more boys grow without any fathers in a world where they're told being a Man is evil.

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[–]DJ-Roukan1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You've succeeded in promulgating a number of fallacies in just a few sentences here.

First, Reddit puts the numbers at 54% male, so they are not as skewed as your example claims. Even if so, it is a moot point that is attempting to distract from the reality here.

Second, you are attempting to use identity politics, proclaiming that all men are one way, all women are another way It is irrelevant, a straw man, as 75% of women, and 85% of men do not subscribe, in any way, to feminist ideology (Gallup, Pew).

Third, not all men, or all women are focusing on this issue, and there are many, many subs where men participate that have nothing to do with these issues. In order for your accusation to hold any validity, one would have to prove that all members of reedit participate in these few boards...which they do not.

Forth you are attempting to mask the reality that it has nothing to do with men against women, but the ideology of hate for men prevalent on the feminist boards. It has nothing to do with it being "women", but what they are subscribing to. There are many female boards on Reddit and they do not experience such reprove, do not ban men for asking questions or disagreeing with a post.

Forth, the most notable speakers, most notable leaders of the MRM, are, in fact, women...which blows the claim up further.

It has nothing to do with demographic but the fact that they subscribe to an agenda of hate against men, no different than the Klan with black people, the Neo Nazi with Jews. It's just been masked by exactly the argument you are putting forth here, claiming it to be men against women.

Feminism does not represent women, but their own ideology of hate and dominance over men. Here we support equality across the board, for men or women. We are what feminism claimed it was, and that is the only truth evident here today.

There is no valid argument that can be made to contradict that truth..

[–]lmao19692 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DJ-Roukan2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

First, you can't stop me. feminist have been trying to do that for years. My nick name when active was, "the pit bull".

Second, the demographic is irrelevant, but you are invoking a straw man so as to support a fallacy. Can't build a fallacy upon a previous fallacy. As stated, the vast and glaring population of women do not subscribe to feminism...which renders your ongoing mantra about "misogynist against women" moot. Did you stop to think about why feminist and their hate boards are now the minority where once they were the majority?

I created one of the first message boards for men on the internet, and at that time they were inundated with feminist spewing hate, shouting the men down, attacking them as misogynist. Never practice censorship, because I knew open discussion must be supported...and knew that men and women, once feminist exposed themselves, would rally against the ideology...and my how things have changed.

You have completely ignored the agenda items, the true reason why people argue against feminism, why feminist attempt to censor opinion counter to their dogma, and the result, which is a false belief system such as you seem to posses.

Your argument fails miserable, across the board. It should fly only if there were not men like me proving it wrong, and now that we have a voice, we are growing while feminism is declining, to what you contended earlier, small enclaves of those still unwilling to ebb their disdain for men, still totally focused on their hate, riding that white whale.

'...to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.' -Melville

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[–]lmao19692 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

First of all, that was 3 years ago and the other newer polls that i linked and other statistics for the majority of subreddits that you can surely find around the the web will show you that the majority is vastly male. Theres no controversy here. Reddit is nearly 2/3s male in its user base. The numbers skew even more male, as the comments in your link correctly suggested, as you go deeper into who is actually upvoting, commenting and posting most often.

I disagree. Demographics changes the the likelihood of an opinion being had by a sample group. Its entirely understandable that a majority male website will skew towards less feminist than a majority female website.

Obviously you'll disagree. I'm not surprised. I'm not even trying to convince you. I'm just putting my opinions out there on this subreddit. It helps to break up the echochamber to have new voices dillute the same old antifeminist & angry dude voices

[–]DJ-Roukan1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Don't care. You argued that such as censorship by feminist boards is justified by population count, and that is just silly, an excuse...and you are trying to justify it with the same tired old mantra of men against women, when it is nothing of the sort.

Women are not playing, and I've shown you data proving that they are not...and now we find study that suggests that anti-feminism if a larger movement than is feminism. I've shown you data on that, and proof that women are heavily involved in the MRM, yet you still keep talking men against women.

All you have. All any feminist has, a shield to hide their hate for men and to block any help that may be afforded men, which is exactly what you are trying to pull here, marginalizing the valid issues that the MRM represent.

You have not proved your point, you've proved mine, and no argument you put forth, no name calling, no insult is going to change that, but further prove my contention. Your final little dig was perfect. You should have led with that and saved us both a lot of typing.

[–]lmao19691 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DJ-Roukan1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I never made that claim. I said that the vast and glaring number of women do not subscribe to feminism, and cited both Gallup and Pew. I also said that most of the noted writers, speakers in the MRA are women. I also said that there anti-feminism is overtaking feminism.

Now you are arguing that there are more male feminist than female MRAs, which is yet another straw man argument that means nothing...but you have not cited your source.

here is yet another source (even though you've presented none. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY_fYRgyqOw

There is now yet another anti feminist board,

https://www.reddit.com/r/exfeminists/

The feminist movement has done some extreme damage to men, women, and boys, but it is declining as rapidly as it began, because it has become a movement filled with extremist making wild accusations and silly arguments like "man-spreading". There is not even a basis for existing any further beyond seeking dominance over men.

[–]lmao19691 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Feminism is mainstream. I wouldn't say antifeminism is overtaking feminism when feminism has had so much progress in the last decade, which is what triggered this uprising in reactionary politics in the first place.

Also it's very useful to point out that the more educated a person is, man or woman, the more progressive and feminist their politics tend to be. So like if you have a Bachelor of science you're way more likely to also because in abortion rights, in trans rights, in gay rights, in improving women's rights, than if youre a college drop out.

It's almost like most facts actually do support the movement and that's why smarter people tend to be more feminist.. Bit like climate change yknow? If youre educated, you're not going to be a dumbass and fall for the reactionary propaganda as easily.

Also no one cares about manspreading but clickbait websites luring right wing/antifeminist men such as yourself. You've been tricked.

[–]DJ-Roukan1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I have a bachelors of science, and no, I'm not a feminist. That is a silly statement. Because of my education I DO NOT buy into the "climate change" fabrication...as I've looked at the science involved, and have NOT fallen for the hype.

Two men were just arrested in NY, on a subway, for manspreading. They have posted signs demanding that men do not...so that argument or yours is invalid.

You actually sound like a feminist at this point. I post proof that anti-feminism is more prevalent than is feminism, entities such as Gallup, and Pew have proven that over 75% to 80% of women do not....yet you deny that and continue the mantra.

Feminism exist only as a function of censorship, allowing only information that supports such anti-male statements as you are attempting to push here. None of their contentions hold up to scrutiny, non of their studies, the scientific method

The problem is that MRAs are educated, and well informed, able to debunk any dismissal tactic, misinformation such as you seem to be producing here...and you have still cited no reference, but I'll save you the time...there is none supporting your contention. It's simply dogma.

clickbait websites luring right wing/antifeminist men such as yourself. You've been tricked.

...and here we go. Your argument debunked, your contention disproved, you don't like it, can't defend it, so out with the name calling and dismissal tactics. Yes, you are a feminist, and that tactic is textbook.

[–]lmao19691 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sigh..

r/exfeminists has ~500 subscribers lol and it doesn't even say it's a sub specifically for women either. Why would you even link that?

I'm also not going to watch YouTube videos. They're hard to source and I want sources right then and there, linked like a well researched paper or article.

You also never linked the polls you're talking about.

Anyway, feminism is still mainstream. You can get fired for writing "Women should be stay at home mothers" in an email and praised for writing "Women should do whatever they want to in life and sexism still exists".

Antifeminism isn't mainstream. It's rising because of a rise in reactionary politics in general. The fact that you deny this shows me you're not a serious person to debate with.

Women are not identifying as much with the term, but their beliefs are the same. And the more educated you are the more likely you are to identify with the term feminist. Those are facts

[–]DJ-Roukan1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

r/exfeminists

has ~500 subscribers lol and it doesn't even say it's a sub specifically for women either. Why would you even link that?

So your prior argument was because there were more anti-feminist than feminist here, but now to support another felonious accusation you claim that there are more feminist than anti feminist.

I'm guessing that you did not even read the ling, which is why you stepped in it again. It was referencing surveys, not reddit, but in trying to bolster your straw man with non-sequesters, you seem to have failed to mention that ex-feminist is relatively new, and already has 500. You also cherry picked, because if you were to make such a comparison, one would have to include all subs that are anti-feminist, not just scan for the lowest count and cherry pick that to, again, try to support a fallacy that is, as I've stated a number of times, is irrelevant on this site.

You keep talking, I'll keep exposing you.

[–]lmao19691 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DJ-Roukan1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If I'm making no sense to a radical feminist, then I am making perfect sense to everyone else.

...and again, no. Not unless you have proof beyond "I believe". Those are claims made by feminist, and like your past claims, they are felonious and not a one supported beyond feminist belief. I've debunked some of them myself.

Feminism is not "mainstream" (remember 90% of the public do not agree or subscribe to feminism). it is a small, select, well funded, very powerful group wreaking havoc on our society, doing exactly the bullshit you are trying to spew here...and again, NOT a shred of proof, but just argument and false claims..."man-spreading" their latest "oppression"

The term "feminism" is embraced by extremist ideologies with Ph.D's feeding off each others hate, and not a single study, or accusation has held true, and they have been exposed across the board (see rmienkampf, and the "scholars" that rewrote it, changed the names to men and women, and had it accepted and published by your "educated people"). The APA guidelines for treating men, claiming that all masculinity is harmful and in need of "cure" is yet another example of pseudo intellectuals. The AAUW is yet another.

They are not "educated", but just radicals with a degree. Don't even try that one...and none It's not working, and only exposing you further. You have no valid point here, and it is very easy, with all the evidence and knowledge out there, to debunk your agenda, ideology, and the silliness you are trying to employ here.

Problem is not feminism any longer. They've been completely discredited for the misandrist they are. It is the task of vacating them from the narrative, and undoing the tremendous damage they've caused to men and boys...and they will go down kicking and screaming all the way.

Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering MALE; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee. Sink all coffins and all hearses to one common pool! and since neither can be mine, let me then tow to pieces, while still chasing thee, though tied to thee, thou damned MALE! Thus, I give up the spear! -Melville

Done with you. break the oedipal knot, or enjoy your ride. Your call, chief.

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No, literally you are not allowed to criticise feminism, they bow their head and look the other way when feminism has done anything bad. Especially when it happens to infringe on the rights of the other 50% of the population.

They serve no niche, they're about changing yourself to fit the world, they agree that all masculinity is toxic, they're extremely anti man, for something supposedly about men's issues. Considering the huge push to empower women and is you're gay trans, whatever to be yourself, its ridiculous in this day and age, straight up discrimination.

You can be leftist, i don't really give a shit there, most people don't. Thats politics, which should be separate from social issues. Being pro feminist defeats the point though, as feminism is not pro men's rights. Feminism is for women's rights, and many take it too far.

But r/MensRights has similar problems with utility and staying on topic. I think over time both subs will get better as more cross pollination occurs.

For that, you would be wrong, the mods do good work here, goodmod especially does very well. Yeah, theres a lot of memes and other filler, but as with many other memes, sometimes they have a good point. But theres large amounts of research linked here, stratstics, numbers, real information, if there is anything going on, like the Men's March in Melbourne, that info is here as well.

But no, MensRights does not like MensLib, and vice a versa. One is decidedly not feminist, the other is 100% feminist. Half of what is on here is about how feminism is SHOWING that its bad.

[–]lmao1969 -3 points-2 points-1 points 7 years ago (47 children) | Copy Link

I'm not an antifeminist though and not everyone on this sub is. So IMO it's a great thing what they're doing. I care about men's rights but I also care about feminism and it makes no sense for me to have to choose one when they're not mutually exclusive. What's good for women is also often good for men and vice versa. I think there's a healthy amount of femininity and masculinity that is good for everyone but our culture praises toxic masculinity so much. Men are well rounded human beings. They're still manly even if they're gay or a feminist or a vegan. Toxic people would disagree with these things and a lot of toxic people are on this subreddit. Hence, r/menslib. It's not for you because you're a staunch antifeminist and you can't see how they're compatible but I do. I think that subreddit is awesome. You don't have to agree, but I will keep recommending it whenever I think it's useful to mention it cause its so wholesome and productive there compared to here.

[–]tenchineuro 20 points21 points22 points 7 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

[–]Yuo_cna_Raed_Tihs -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You're literally why mras get shat on lmao.

Your perception of feminism and what it actually is are very different.

But to be fair, the problem is "what it actually is" is a very vague concept. There's no feminist Bible per se. So you have feminists like the og comment in the Tumblr post, and feminists like the reply. You have feminists like me, who acknowledge that there are social pressures on both men and women that are harmful and boys often get the short end of the stick, and you have feminists who believe men and boys are the devil.

The thing is tho, when you villify feminism as a whole, you essentially say that there is no way to advance men's rights through a feminist lens, which I have to disagree with. Sexual assault on men and toxic masculinity (which is a genuine thing but I feel that it's name is a bit shit, such as being called pussies for sharing feelings [also I'd acknowledge that women also reinforce toxic masculinity but that's a seperate discussion]), are both genuine feminist issues.

What I also find funny is that when feminists disavow other feminists saying "she's not a feminist", mras reply with pointing out it's a no true Scotsman fallacy. But if I were to highlight myself as a feminist who cares more about men's rights, youd probably say I'm not a real feminist. Which is also no true Scotsman fallacy.

Tldr: feminism is a broad term and someone telling you that they're feminist tells you very little about their views. The idea that every form of feminism runs contrary to mens rights is stupid

[–]tenchineuro 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Your perception of feminism and what it actually is are very different.

So you say.

The thing is tho, when you villify feminism as a whole, you essentially say that there is no way to advance men's rights through a feminist lens, which I have to disagree with.

So how has focusing 100% on women and girls for all these years helped men or boys. How has blaming men for literally everything feminists deem wrong with the world helped men? According to feminist theory we live in a patriarchy with a rape culture. And you are not allowed to question these.

Sexual assault on men and toxic masculinity (which is a genuine thing but I feel that it's name is a bit shit, such as being called pussies for sharing feelings [also I'd acknowledge that women also reinforce toxic masculinity but that's a seperate discussion]), are both genuine feminist issues.

So that men are toxic is a valid feminist issue? I don't see anything to contradict the assertion that you just read the PR.

But if I were to highlight myself as a feminist who cares more about men's rights,

The cognitive dissonance runs deep in this one.

Tldr: feminism is a broad term and someone telling you that they're feminist tells you very little about their views.

A feminist cares only about women, in a disaster zone feminism thinks that food aid and financial aid should only be given to women.

The idea that every form of feminism runs contrary to mens rights is stupid

Reality is what it is, you can apply labels if you wish but nothing is changed.

[+]lmao1969 -6 points-5 points-4 points 7 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

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[–]tenchineuro10 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Mate how am I supposed to even argue with "yeah well YOU ONLY KNOW THE PR!"

Stop using the PR and address what feminism actually says and does.

Like what do you want me to do, list all the books I've read? Lmao.

You come down like a feminist, I'm not really positive what reading the SCUM manifesto gives you other than perspective. You have read it, right?

Believe whatever you want bro I'm just gonna keep doing my thing.

Thank you so much for that.

I weave in and out of echochambers like this one, I know what level of indoctrination you're at LOL and it's not worth arguing with namsayin

That's because all you have are feminist arguments.

Tell us about the patriarchy and male privilege, we'd just love to hear more about it. And tell us why arresting male DV victims by way of the feminist written Duluth model is good for men, please.

[–]lmao1969-2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Honestly I don't have time to do this. All the info you want is online. Maybe if you started reading what most feminists talk about and think about or advocate for instead of getting your clearly biased version from MRA blogs and websites you could get a more realistic worldview. Here's a summary of my take on things: men have it worse in some ways, and women have it worse in others. MRAs and feminists could get along better if they all acted like mature adults with respect for each other and took turns actually listening to one another and hearing each other out. r/AskFeminists is a pretty good resource IMO for straight from the horses mouth kind of info about their varied opinions. Tip: use the search function because almost everything has already been discussed ad nauseum. Or just don't, idc, just thought I'd share that sub cause I think it's pretty chilled out most of the time and it's no fun having an echochamber after a while you need some cross pollination.

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The way you put your opinions across makes a big difference. At first you did come across as a troll, because you weren't trying to understand the views of others, just putting across your own as the sole truth. How can you expect people to listen to and try to understand you when you don't do the same?

Also, large amounts of disagreement don't make an echo chamber. If you put down sources and facts proving your opinion, and the same thing happened, that would be an echo chamber. As it stands, you gave an opinion, and a lot of people disagreed with it, because as it stands, a lot of the sources we see provided here say otherwise. People are going to react, it's an active sub. That's actually a pretty low number compared to the amount of people here.

Disagreement is healthy, but you need to actually bring something to the table.

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[–]1LegendaryWombat 11 points12 points13 points 7 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

You might not be antifeminist, but if you care about men's rights, you can't be pro feminist. They are not compatible as it currently stands.

our culture praises toxic masculinity so much

No it doesn't.

If you want equal rights for men and women, and everyone else, there is already a word for that. Egalitarian, most people would fit the definition of this. I am antifeminist because feminism is currently anti me, anti most people i know, and strangely enough, in many ways, anti women, especially ones that disagree with feminism, which is most of them.

cause its so wholesome and productive there compared to here.

Well, you're objectively wrong on both counts. Recommend it all you like, we don't police speech after all or dissenting opinions(unlike every feminist sub), but i wouldn't expect anyone to agree with you. The actual useful things on mens lib are already here, theres just more of them, better sourced and more popular.

If feminism changes to not be so negative and sexist against everyone, and actually dealt with their stupid and/or radial elements(like terfs), then sure, i'd be pro feminism. As it stands, i'll stick to being pro women instead.

[–]lmao1969 -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]1LegendaryWombat 9 points10 points11 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

*sigh* Ever think there might be a reason for this?

There is such pushback against feminism because of how anti male it is. Here are some examples(maybe about fifty).

not enough about real political action and education

Okay, you realise every time someone introduces something for male rights, its shut down, derailed, called sexist. Here in Australia, our prime minister said that we shouldn't push down men to push up women. Makes sense right? Literally everyone criticized him for a statement which is just common sense.

Right now, there are almost no politicians who understand what the hell is going on, and the feminist ones enforce this. Usually with mass amounts of misinformation, So while everyone is so concerned with getting 50% gender quotas on everything that isn't actually dangerous, difficult or has no extra benefits, these problems fly under the radar, because the politcians don't know or understand the stats of crimes, the falling education rates for 50% of their population. The only recourse is to make some noise until some of them actually wonder what the hell is going on.

Thats what happened with the men's march in Melbourne, which after a quick check, was never mentioned on menslib. The media portrayed this as a male supremacy movement, as someone who was there, it was anything but. The issues of men were raised(including a man who pointed our the domestic violence problems in Western Australia and was promptly fired), the tagline, that we chanted was 'march for men, respect for all'. Which is mentioned precisely nowhere. The march was also stopped partway through for...unspecified reasons.

Nobody pointed out or showed that 30-40% of people there were actually women. It was entirely pro men, not a lick of anti feminism.

Yet it was protested, calling us racist, homophobic, misogynistic nazis, yes there was literally a sign that said that. Equating any and all MRA's to basically the KKK.

As for education, trying to put the stats out, that men are actually more likely to be killed, attacked, beaten more than women, just that, is somehow taboo, and anyone who says even something which is an indisputable fact, bam, censored, deplatformed, called a misogynist, or quietly swept away if they're an academic. The exception being Jordan Peterson, who is constantly barraged when he is interviewed or on panels, and he's not even an MRA, he's just telling the truth.

there's just too many toxic people saying toxic shit.

If you mean here, on mensrights, there are, some, very, very few. As i mentioned before, mods do their job well, I've only encountered two such individuals, out of 227k+, thats pretty good. Also, i've come to hate the term toxic, as its massively overused.

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Well if you scroll up, theres fifty reasons. just waiting to be considered.

Thats the thing though, if i am so wrong and misinformed, why is everything i say backed up by more than just my words. Hey look, heres something someone did recently about checking out menslib and talking to their mods and stuff. Granted, some screenshots would be better, but hey.

I stopped being a feminist some years ago, its only recently i became anti feminist, once i actually 'went down the rabbit hole' as it were, there sso much shit, that nobody seems to realise the movement and its members have done. As an example, did you know suffragettes in America, when petitioning the vote, most were actually useless, some did terrorist acts and it was actually because of a few women who worked with politicians, basically saying 'if you give us the vote, we'll vote for you' which actually got them the vote?

No, few know this, history lessons don't cover that, the overwhelming majority of feminists don't know that, and the ones that do, don't say. Why? omitting the truth makes them look better.

But calling this an echochamber is fuckin laugh. Go to TrollXchromosones, go to the feminism sub, askfeminists, againstmensrights, terfs, gendercritical, etc. As an example, in the big main femsubs FAQ they have a link to a google doc, unlike most people, i've read it. It says, feminism always comes first, or, verbatim: " concern for women’s issues must supercede any other contrarian ideological identification, and any incompatibility should be solved in favor of women’s issues". Theres 101 rules that they can punt you off for and you can be damn sure anyone dissenting is kicked out if they say one thing wrong. The only reason i haven't been banned is because what i have commented on there was never that visible, and obeyed all their damn rules.

It would be quicker to just say 'we remove what we don't like'. As the two bans i do have, that is essentially what it boiled down to. Also, shitty mods who happen to also be shitty people. If this was such an echochamber, YOU would have been kicked out by now.

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[–]1LegendaryWombat3 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Not brainwashed nor radicalised, so this is the point, where you are just being a troll. As to propaganda, no, i've gone and checked this stuff out. And it was the response to the blog post, which had good information, with links, then a big dump of links, but theres a couple more lists of stuff, its not like feminism has a lack of shitty things. Now i doubt you even looked at the previous one, and honestly i don't expect you to look at these aside from clicking it, reading the title and then going on your way.

You have no idea how many of these same arguments I've heard for years and they all are extremely easily debunked.

You know what, i'll take a page out of the feminism school of arguing: source it. I've provided a ton of things and can keep going, real stats, real facts, real events. Its difficult to debunk reality.

I link to stuff like that because i am for one, tired, and two, i'm always told one instance of feminism being bad isn't enough, so i found those, also look up Karen Straughan, as she knows much more than I on how feminism is a crap. Especially historically. Few examples.

One topic? I would consider myself fairly knowledgeable(not an expert) on all of them, but it doesn't matter, you won't listen. I wasn't intending for you to respond to all of them, why would i do that? I input it as some extra reading, if you actually care. For me, it was an afterthought to the sentence i wrote beforehand. You said you hadn't seen a single good reason to not be a feminist, so i gave you some.

And go ahead, link to ask feminists, they're one of the subs i am banned from. I have no idea how i broke their rules, even after i asked, but apparently i did.

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It's extremely inconvenient to your worldview that one can both be a feminist and think that men shouldn't be treated differently for being men. Lol its crazy how much it bothers so many of you that I'm an MRA and a feminist. Like wow. That's dedication to an ideology. this hugeeeeee pushback against including people who don't agree with you 100% is amazing.

Like buddy I don't need to be against pro choice in order to care about male domestic violence victims. And I don't need to want women to be conscripted to think that conscription for men is fucked up. I don't need to think that society doesn't have a problem with toxic masculinity in order to think that men are victims of a wider cultural pressure to be a man and it causes serious harm in many ways. I think the role of men as only provider and never nurturer is awful and wrong. I think men can and do make amazing fathers.

But this isn't convenient to you so you guys get all feisty and argumentative like crazy it's amazing to witness

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (40 children) | Copy Link

It's extremely inconvenient to your worldview that one can both be a feminist and think that men shouldn't be treated differently for being men.

Well they don't actually believe that.

If they did they wouldn't lobby against shared custody (which you can't discuss in menslib), or support the Duluth model (same) or VAWA (same). They would discuss the workplace fatality gap as often as the wage gap and be fighting to help boys in education and to eliminate the sentencing gap. They wouldn't talk about teaching men not to rape and using toxic masculinity while calling toxic femininity misogyny.

Lol its crazy how much it bothers so many of you that I'm an MRA and a feminist.

That's like being a BLM champion and white supremacist.

Like wow. That's dedication to an ideology. this hugeeeeee pushback against including people who don't agree with you 100% is amazing.

I'm fine including them, they can come here to discuss whatever. But they will be challenged and will likely freak out like you are. And they are totally opposed to us in every way.

Like buddy I don't need to be against pro choice in order to care about male domestic violence victims.

Strawman.

And what are your thoughts on the duluth model, a major feminist victory, that states all domestic abuse is gendered so the man should always be jailed?

And I don't need to want women to be conscripted to think that conscription for men is fucked up.

Ok?

I don't need to think that society doesn't have a problem with toxic masculinity in order to think that men are victims of a wider cultural pressure to be a man and it causes serious harm in many ways.

Except the toxic masculinity cliche is intended to stop all discussion on men as victims and reframe it with men as the guilty party.

I think the role of men as only provider and never nurturer is awful and wrong. I think men can and do make amazing fathers.

So then you'll favor alimony reform, default shared custody, and quotas to get men in to childcare? All things feminists oppose.

Or maybe instead you'll say all this is caused by toxic masculine and men should just not be that way anymore.

But this isn't convenient to you so you guys get all feisty and argumentative like crazy it's amazing to witness

You're being challenged. As a feminist you aren't used to this. So it feels oppressive to you.

This isn't a circle jerk. Bad ideas are called out. In menslib no one will question you if you follow the feminist dogma. This is different.

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Oof. For one thing it's a shitty ass Tumblr post, not even a well cited blog or peer reviewed journal.

Secondly most of the "citations" for the first point on the wage gap are as good a source as me giving you vox articles lmao..

The wage gap is real, but exaggerated by mainstream feminists with regards to equal work for equal pay. It's a lot smaller when you adjust for job position and hours worked, but it's still there.

The problem most feminists I know have is with

Why do women do most of the unpaid work
Why is there still a gap even when you adjust for everything
Men should be expected to stay at home with the kids and do nurturing and unpaid roles just as much, no more no less than women
Men need to be allowed paternity leave as well because only offering maternity leave hurts women's jobs
Why is it so hostile for women to work in male dominated jobs and men's ability to be do fatherly things
Why is it so difficult for people to stop treating women differently from men with regards to resumes and job interviews, employee evaluations and scientific peer review papers (where the only difference is the gender of the name on the paper, but otherwise the exact same paper) and mentorship opportunities and quality of mentorship advice. These are all well researched areas that will show you consistently anti female biases.

There, I'm not gonna do any more just go to r/AskFeminists since you're not even arguing with me anyway you just want me to argue with some awfully written Tumblr post lol

[–]coke5012 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oof. For one thing it's a shitty ass Tumblr post, not even a well cited blog or peer reviewed journal.

I'm surprised that you took the time adress at least something. Good for you.

Secondly most of the "citations" for the first point on the wage gap are as good a source as me giving you vox articles lmao..

I see how this works. Only peer-reviewed articles are OK now. What's next? Only peer-reviewed articles in feminist magazines? Just asking.

Some of these articles are sourced by journals btw. https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/02/02/1014871108.abstract?sid=ec6ff688-b446-4fe1-bf54-bcb1d7765598

The wage gap is real, but exaggerated by mainstream feminists with regards to equal work for equal pay. It's a lot smaller when you adjust for job position and hours worked, but it's still there.

I wouldn't deny that. But, and please stay with me here. How much of it is due to gender? Is there any solid study about this? I'll happily admit that maternity plays a great role but i guarantee you, that efforts to protect mothers have cost women a whole lot of job-opportunities. Because buisnesses don't care what anyone thinks it's fair.

The problem most feminists I know have is with

Why do women do most of the unpaid work

You mean stay at home mums? As far as I am aware most stay at home mums have a considerable say in how money is spent. So much indeed that they are awarded half of the money of their spouse should it come to divorce. That may or may not be a downgrade for some, though

Why is there still a gap even when you adjust for everything

A really good question. We should try to find it out. Unbiased. Ideally the other wage-gap gets discredited enough so these studies would be taken seriously. I am not aware of a serious controlled study that concluded: Because women. Every time the wage gap is mentioned it the completely flawed methodology that leads to the '70 cents on the dollar' stat. And the really sad thing is, when you use these methods on the institutes that parrot these stats, well guess what. They also pay 70 cents on the dollar.

Also: I am not sure right now but I think i read that women earn more per hour worked than men, even in the exact same job because the majority of unpaid overtime is done by men.

Men should be expected to stay at home with the kids and do nurturing and unpaid roles just as much, no more no less than women

Sure thing. I see a few problems with that economically but I am sure a lot of men would love to do this unpaid labour of having to spend time with their kids, cook and clean the house while being sure that someone else will take care of the financial aspect of this. You are aware that the women in this scenario would have to provide for the man and the children, aren't you?

Or do you think both should put in half the work all the time and effectively lose a considerable amount of potential income?

Men need to be allowed paternity leave as well because only offering maternity leave hurts women's jobs

I'm sure employers would love this. I let you in on a secret: They hate maternity leave. They hate it with a passion. Every employer in the world (at least if his only agenda is profits) will admit in privacy that he wouldn't give a women a job if he knew she will have kids. Fair? Well, that really depends on your perspective.

Also: I'm exegerating but i know enough employers that don't think it's fair to pay someone without receiving the appropriate amount of work in return. (Also also: I am europen we have paid maternity leave here, don't know about the US)

And i let you in on another secret: Every couple from lower middle class down will turn down the chance for paternity leave because they know it will hurt their bottom line enough to cause serious problems in their lives. IE missed promotions, pay raises, chances for paid overtime etc.

I don't pretend to know how to solve that dilemma but I am sure paternity leave will not solve it. Except you force it. Which will lead to a whole lot of other problems, because you basically punish people for having children.

Why is it so hostile for women to work in male dominated jobs and men's ability to be do fatherly things

Ever talked to a male nurse? Or a male elementaryschool teacher? But let me ask you another question. What male jobs are so hostile? What male jobs do not go out of their way to include more women, nowadays?

Why is it so difficult for people to stop treating women differently from men with regards to resumes and job interviews, employee evaluations and scientific peer review papers (where the only difference is the gender of the name on the paper, but otherwise the exact same paper) and mentorship opportunities and quality of mentorship advice. These are all well researched areas that will show you consistently anti female biases.

I know of at least an australian study that showed the opposite effect. At least in regards to job interviews. http://behaviouraleconomics.pmc.gov.au/projects/going-blind-see-more-clearly-unconscious-bias-australian-public-service-aps-shortlisting

They stopped the push for blind resumes after that study. I wonder why.

Also: Why is it so difficult to entertain the thought that women and men are different? I mean, only one of them can get pregnant ffs. The other one has considerable more potential for strength.

There, I'm not gonna do any more just go to r/AskFeminists since you're not even arguing with me anyway you just want me to argue with some awfully written Tumblr post lol

I did not argue with you because you didn't argue until now. At least not in the threads i read. I basically just argued with you arguing-style, but whatever.

Don't get me wrong, there's a whole can of worms regarding topics like wage, maternity and employment but short of forcing employers to pay for maternity leave (which will cause them to employ less women in critical roles) or forcing men to take unpaid paternity leave (which will penalize families) I don't see a possibility to 'level the playing field'.

[–]lmao19692 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How much of it is due to gender

Its difficult to estimate, but the general trend towards things changing over the last century has shown that most of it isn't biological, its social.

Theres also considerable peer reviewed evidence for discrimination, glass ceiling, differences in evaluation based on gender roles, etc etc.

You mean stay at home mums?

No, also women who work full time and work just as much as men but still end up with less leisure time and more childcare/housework duties than men.

Every employer in the world (at least if his only agenda is profits) will admit in privacy that he wouldn't give a women a job if he knew she will have kids.

basically admitting they would discriminate against women. And heres a real secret: they do discriminate against women. Its been proven time and time again. Why do you think quotas exist in some industries? For shits and giggles? No. To correct discrimination against women and minorities.

I don't pretend to know how to solve that dilemma but I am sure paternity leave will not solve it.

Im no expert but there are people who study exactly this. Some of their conclusion tends to say social change and awareness of biases in the way we treat women/mothers and men/fathers. Its improved thus far since the beginnings of feminism, it can theoretically continue.

First we need to actually make sures its even legally available as an option for men, which in most countries it isnt.

I know of at least an australian study that showed the opposite effect. At least in regards to job interviews.

Yeah I know that study, but I also know of a few others where the blind hiring helped. Its used in a lot of places without any issues now.

They stopped the push for blind resumes after that study

Only that place, not everywhere.

Why is it so difficult to entertain the thought that women and men are different?

Where did I say they're not? Just that we can't know for sure where biology ends and where socialization begins. Theres still room for improvement. Why is this so difficult for you to entertain the thought that we have been on a trend towards improved equality for centuries and every step of the way antifeminists have said "but biology!" and every step of the way women and men have shown people that they're not just what gender stereotypes will dictate. If culture is still sexist, people will still end up being raised differently. Those are facts.

I don't see a possibility to 'level the playing field'.

The playing field has been progressing towards better levelling for decades. Why is it so bad to desire a more gender neutral and fair upbringing and society?

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Only when those standards don't need to be so high. Wherever reasonable, I think it's good to give people who have a lot if talent/skill/intelligence a chance at being hired even if it means lowering the standards a bit. Like maybe not require 10 years experience if 5 will do.

If it's unreasonably lowered for the job to get done then that's bad, but I don't think it's currently a widespread problem IMO. I don't expect this will sway everyone but that's just how I see it. White guys still have the best chances at being hired in general, especially for higher paying jobs, so idg why all the fuss about quotas. I think quotas should be low, and reasonable. I have my own qualms about quotas too, but only when they're too high or just not even necessary but I tend to make that call on a case by case basis rather than a generalized sweeping disdain for all diversity programs. Again that's just me.

[–]coke5011 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I had a really long answer prepared. Then I went for a drink with a mate and took some time to think about our conversation.

And I realized its pointless. We are on oppising ends of the debate. You see gendered discrimination where I see basic biology and profit driven behaviour. You think society would be able to (and in fact has) override our hardwired behaviour and I see us defaulting to predicted behaviours when we are given the choice (swedens overwhelming 'traditional' distribution of work-choices). You think 'equality' is a desired state, I think we should embrace what we are and get the best out of our natural desires.

I'll produce my original answer if you want to but I want to say something else before I leave this. For being an MRA, as you say, you show very little compassion towards men, if at all. The only hardships you brought up are the hardships of women and if mens problems were mentioned then only to highlight how women suffer because of these things. As in 'men do not get paternity leave. This hurts womens job opportunities'. This of course is expecterd as you favour menslib over mens rights.

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Lol doesn't mean anything to me, cause I'm not a victim.

Just thought I'd brag about how many of you extremists I've triggered. That's just for saying I'm both an MRA and a feminist. You guys need to stop trying to make this a cult and stop getting so emotional when there is internal disagreement. How is this thing ever going to get bigger if you don't allow for a dialogue without accusing every dissenter of being a troll?

Do you even realize how much of an SJW you sound like? You're being a literal warrior for what you think is social justice. Me? I'm just letting y'all know that I agree with some things in both the MRM and in feminism. Wow, how awful of me to be open minded. I must like hate men or something, right? Otherwise you'd have to maybe consider listening to feminists without the tin foil hat on? And we both know that would be impossible for you.

[–]Only2DaysLeft1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Just thought I'd brag about how many of you extremists I've triggered.

But you haven't. That's your narcissism. You play the victim then brag about being a bully. lol

You guys need to stop trying to make this a cult and stop getting so emotional when there is internal disagreement

Projection.

How is this thing ever going to get bigger

It is bigger and bigger each passing day. There is nothing you can do to stop it trollie 🤣

if you don't allow for a dialogue without accusing every dissenter of being a troll?

Heh, more victim complex here.

Do you even realize how much of an SJW you sound like?

Now back on the attack? One sentence you pretend to want to be friends. The next you want to fight. That's called bipolar disorder.

Wow, how awful of me to be open minded.

Annnnnd back to victim.

Otherwise you'd have to maybe consider listening to feminists without the tin foil hat on?

Back on the attack. Manic episodes coming faster and faster.

And we both know that would be impossible for you.

More attack.

Gee, I just don't know why nobody wants to be your friend what with such a charming personality.

lolol

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Lacking, huh?

I'll tell you what's lacking, friend: Empathy and basic validation. I never found it in feminism for my situation. And even when a select few offered these basic human needs, when pressed on how feminism hasn't exactly helped, their charitable veneer breaks and reveals how truly cold-hearted they are by telling me to check my white-male privilege.

That's what I found in feminism: mean-spirited bullies that coincidentally acted exactly like the ones in my past who subjected me to such venomous ridicule and verbal abuse for my awkwardness that I wondered if I'd ever survive with my sanity in tact.

Christ, I don't even know why I went down that route. You're only here to promote said ideology that bullied me and refused to listen to my issues.

No, the name isn't the biggest issue. It's the complete lack of understanding on males like me who've been hurt by females in their life. SERIOUSLY hurt.

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[–]Smelly_Scientist 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

That is not the opposite of feminism, that is exactly what feminism SHOULD be: destroying sexism and toxic masculinity. Jeez.

Personal rant: I’m in a feminist group in Facebook and the other day they shared something along the lines of “diets and fat shaming are a way of female obedience”. What the actual fuck. It makes no sense whatsoever and fat shaming is not exclusive to women. It’s so stupid. They take ANYTHING that exists and make it about #oppression and #patriarchy. I’m so tired of trying to actually talk and debate to other women and they are usually just cattle, regurgitating whatever it is that they see that seems “scientific” somehow. When I point out inconsistencies they don’t even reply. The other day they posted “men are flat earthers! They’re stupid! We women are smarter hahaha!”. And like, many antivaxxers are women. Not to mention there are a lot of flat-earth women out there. I’m so fucking pissed. People are so stupid and blind nowadays. They apparently just want to feel special. /endrant

[–]The_Best_01 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]Smelly_Scientist 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I thought about leaving the group, but I think it’s important to know wtf they are saying, you know? Maybe, just maybe, I can induce some people to think and realize it’s not a matter of “us vs them”. The same reason why, even though I’m not male, I’m here in this sub.

Things have escalated a lot in the last few years. There’s hysteria everywhere. Here too, you may see it too. Everyone seems absolutely tired and angry and it’s leading us nowhere.

About your sentence: “feminism in not about “destroying sexism” when it’s sexism to men”. I know many women view it like that, but I assure you many don’t. Maybe it’s a minority, but it exists. Hopefully that minority will grow (hence why I’m still in those FB groups).

What I refer to toxic masculinity is not male traits, but toxic things that are taught to kids (boys AND girls) growing up. Like the whole “men don’t cry” and “men don’t talk about feelings”. Men aren’t robots, they have feelings (good and bad) and they need a healthy output for them. Not allowing them to be human brings many problems later on (propensity to aggressive behavior, addiction, depression, anxiety, etc). This is a serious serious serious issue that feminists are aware of but ignore. It’s usually men that follow that pattern that can be violent to women. That’s what irks me about some feminists, they don’t see that the main cause for violence against women in not just sexism against women, but the sexism that is taught men growing up that affects men themselves. (Again, I’m not talking about stereotypical gender roles, I’m talking about those fucked up things we were taught).

So you see what I’m trying to say? The best way to drop the violence against gender in general is to be aware of how sexism affects EVERYONE, which includes men.

We all just want to live in peace and not be treated like garbage, to have the same opportunities. I don’t know why it’s so hard now a days for people to realize that. :/

[–]The_Best_01 -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

I thought about leaving the group, but I think it’s important to know wtf they are saying, you know? Maybe, just maybe, I can induce some people to think and realize it’s not a matter of “us vs them”. The same reason why, even though I’m not male, I’m here in this sub.

A noble attitude, but it is us vs them as long as feminists are ignorant about what their movement is really about and you can't convince the more hardcore ones. You just have to educate the more open-minded ones and they'll likely leave the movement if they're at all sane and rational.

Things have escalated a lot in the last few years. There’s hysteria everywhere. Here too, you may see it too. Everyone seems absolutely tired and angry and it’s leading us nowhere.

It really has. I think our reaction is more justified though, probably more than both political sides.

About your sentence: “feminism in not about “destroying sexism” when it’s sexism to men”. I know many women view it like that, but I assure you many don’t. Maybe it’s a minority, but it exists. Hopefully that minority will grow (hence why I’m still in those FB groups).

Hopefully, but like I said, I'm not sure if they would still be in the feminist movement if they realized just how much sexism there is.

What I refer to toxic masculinity is not male traits, but toxic things that are taught to kids (boys AND girls) growing up. Like the whole “men don’t cry” and “men don’t talk about feelings”. Men aren’t robots, they have feelings (good and bad) and they need a healthy output for them. Not allowing them to be human brings many problems later on (propensity to aggressive behavior, addiction, depression, anxiety, etc). This is a serious serious serious issue that feminists are aware of but ignore.

That's exactly what I'm saying, feminists claim it's about that, but ignore it when men do show their feelings and insult them to boot. They say it's about helping men but you can't include the word "toxic" there and not expect men to be suspicious about it and think there's an ulterior motive. The types of feminists who create these terms do nothing but harm men even more.

I’m talking about those fucked up things we were taught

What fucked up things, that men can't cry and don't talk about their feelings? Where did you learn that, from school, or the media, or what? I was never taught those things and I'm not sure most boys were in the last few decades. Also, would you be fine with the term "toxic femininity"? What would you define that as?

So you see what I’m trying to say? The best way to drop the violence against gender in general is to be aware of how sexism affects EVERYONE, which includes men.

Agreed.

We all just want to live in peace and not be treated like garbage, to have the same opportunities. I don’t know why it’s so hard now a days for people to realize that. :/

Also agreed. Sadly, the feminists who have the power have lobbied and passed policies that have actively harmed men in this regard. Then there's corporatism, which is another story. It's not looking good for the average guy. :/

[–]Smelly_Scientist 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

(I don’t know how to quote on mobile, so sorry if my reply looks confusing).

Regarding trying to convince others, I know I very likely won’t convince the most radical women (or even men). But making others realize those radicals are saying bullshit can help weaken those radical ideas. It doesn’t hurt to try :P

I understand what you mean by the word “toxic”, it can have a pretty bad connotation. Maybe we could all think of another term.

I would describe “toxic femininity” as an extreme and selfish set of behaviors that are rooted in the stereotypes of being a woman or “female behavior”. It would be the same excuses some men use to excuse their bad behavior, using their gender as the excuse, but with women. So for example, what I think toxic femininity is like: - Women who think they are entitled or superior for being women; - That think they are the epitome of emotional intelligence and that men can’t “naturally achieve that, because it’s a female trait” (“men are all assholes”, “men don’t have feelings”, etc) - Women that use and abuse men, but when confronted say that “women can’t abuse men!! It’s the other way around always! I’m just using the system on my behalf!” - Women who think they should NEVER be expected to learn certain skills because they are seen as “masculine”. And I’m talking about basic skills like using a hammer or a screwdriver. Etc.

About the “fucked up things being taught”. I don’t know if it has to do with national culture or not, I don’t know where you’re from. I’m from Brazil and some guys I know have actually been told growing up that they should “suck it up because they are men” when they were sad or anxious. Literally yesterday a friend of mine told me his parents aren’t accepting of his depression and anxiety issues because he is a “weak man” and he should “be more manly and mature”. Who do you think taught him to think of himself that way? :/

It may not be as clear as it was a few decades ago, but from my experience many guys have those internalized ideas that only damage them even more. And they usually say they don’t feel comfortable sharing those ideas and feelings with other men with the fear of being ridiculed. So they turn to women and even idolize relationships with women. And they throw all their emotional baggage on us. Which is an issue cause you know, we’re fucked up emotionally too. And then it’s just absolute chaos about expectations and not having healthy emotional outputs.

And that is when some men can be violent from what I see. Because they feel like they have no where to stand and to vent. The only acceptable emotion is “anger” and “dominance” (it’s not an emotion, but you know). And that’s is when sexism affects women.

But many feminists, instead of realizing that dynamic, focus solely on the end result. And they don’t really offer ways to change other that just being angry theirselves.

(Insert poop emoji here).

IMO feminism and MRA had a great goal in mind (the same goal), but got completely lost on their way and seem to base theirselves on some not so solid arguments. But they are all too proud to recognize that and work together. :c

But I’ll keep on hoping people will come to their senses.

[–]The_Best_01 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Regarding trying to convince others, I know I very likely won’t convince the most radical women (or even men). But making others realize those radicals are saying bullshit can help weaken those radical ideas. It doesn’t hurt to try :P

I guess that makes sense.

I understand what you mean by the word “toxic”, it can have a pretty bad connotation. Maybe we could all think of another term.

What about "negative character traits"? That can be applied to nearly anybody.

I would describe “toxic femininity” as an extreme and selfish set of behaviors that are rooted in the stereotypes of being a woman or “female behavior”. It would be the same excuses some men use to excuse their bad behavior, using their gender as the excuse, but with women. So for example, what I think toxic femininity is like: - Women who think they are entitled or superior for being women; - That think they are the epitome of emotional intelligence and that men can’t “naturally achieve that, because it’s a female trait” (“men are all assholes”, “men don’t have feelings”, etc) - Women that use and abuse men, but when confronted say that “women can’t abuse men!! It’s the other way around always! I’m just using the system on my behalf!” - Women who think they should NEVER be expected to learn certain skills because they are seen as “masculine”. And I’m talking about basic skills like using a hammer or a screwdriver. Etc.

Good perception, I agree. I'd also point to the movie Mean Girls and soap operas as a depiction of it. :p

About the “fucked up things being taught”. I don’t know if it has to do with national culture or not, I don’t know where you’re from. I’m from Brazil and some guys I know have actually been told growing up that they should “suck it up because they are men” when they were sad or anxious. Literally yesterday a friend of mine told me his parents aren’t accepting of his depression and anxiety issues because he is a “weak man” and he should “be more manly and mature”. Who do you think taught him to think of himself that way? :/

I guess it's the national culture, I'm from the UK. I expect developing countries are a lot further behind on this issue.

It may not be as clear as it was a few decades ago, but from my experience many guys have those internalized ideas that only damage them even more. And they usually say they don’t feel comfortable sharing those ideas and feelings with other men with the fear of being ridiculed.

I think they should be more worried about how women perceive them, honestly. I agree with the rest of that you said but women generally have been conditioned to want a more stoic partner and many women have this conditioned belief that men shouldn't talk about their feelings too. So I think they should feel more comfortable opening up to other guys, but the culture is different so I don't know.

And that is when some men can be violent from what I see. Because they feel like they have no where to stand and to vent. The only acceptable emotion is “anger” and “dominance” (it’s not an emotion, but you know). And that’s is when sexism affects women.

Some women are also aggressive (physically and mentally) and violent towards their partner too, so I'm not sure if this is a problem only men have.

But many feminists, instead of realizing that dynamic, focus solely on the end result. And they don’t really offer ways to change other that just being angry theirselves

It's like when they focus on some of the behaviors of rich and powerful men and apply that to all men. They also assume that men have more "power" whatever that means.

IMO feminism and MRA had a great goal in mind (the same goal)

I strongly disagree.

seem to base theirselves on some not so solid arguments

Our arguments seem more solid though.

But they are all too proud to recognize that and work together. :c

Never! :p

But I’ll keep on hoping people will come to their senses.

Me too.

[–]Keenin455 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I’m from Brazil and some guys I know have actually been told growing up that they should “suck it up because they are men” when they were sad or anxious.

Brazil, hmm.

I want to tell you a story about an innocent little boy whom was kept from his father by his lesbian mother and her partner. Brainwashed into believing he was a girl trapped in a boys body.

They performed a sex change operation on him that lead to his death. Then proceeded to behead him, chop his body into pieces and toss the parts into garbage bags.

When caught, his mother used her seething hatred for his father, and men in general, as motive for her actions.

It's a true story, by the way. And it happened in your own country.

Problem is, your countries' media seemed to have cold feet about reporting the full details because of the woman's motive and the fact that she identified as lesbian. It took hard work from news media outside the country, through word of mouth and what little info they could gather, to report this story accurately down to every minute detail.

So it's not just about men being told to suck it up. Your own country seems to suffer from the same strict adherence to political correctness and the narrative that women can do no wrong. Any situation that rejects said narrative, it's swept under the rug.

[–]Smelly_Scientist 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

This news was reported all around the web. Everyone I know knows about it. You were very condescending in your reply. It was completely unnecessary.

They clearly had issues and yes, it was wrong to not be covered openly in TV. I think that the best approach would’ve been to report it but also make the obvious comment that you know, this was a very specific situation. Homo couples can be as violent and homicidal as straight couples. Because you know, their sexual orientation isn’t really what drove the violence.

The thing you maybe don’t know about my country is how homophobic it really is. The Evangelics are pushing their agenda and dominating the political sphere, it’s like we’re going back a few centuries in our national politics. There is lot of manipulation everywhere, which includes news outlets. So maybe what you see as “feminists taking over” might be exactly the opposite. Politics is a game after all. Maybe conservatives payed big outlets to not report, so they could use the card of “SEE?! THEY ARE THE DEVIL AND THEY DONT WANT YOU TO SEE THE TRUTH! LISTEN TO US, WE SHARE THE TRUTH!”

Maybe you think what I’m saying is a big conspiracy theory, but if you know about the current state of my country and about the mamadeira de piroca etc you will see that it really isn’t that far off from the truth.

[–]Keenin455 -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

This news was reported all around the web.

Really?

Then how come the only outlets that picked up on it were low-rent tabloids that people ignore?

Like I said, it took foreign media press to spread the awareness of this heinous crime.

I think that the best approach would’ve been to report it but also make the obvious comment that you know, this was a very specific situation. Homo couples can be as violent and homicidal as straight couples.

I'm not talking about violent homosexuals, I'm talking about violent WOMEN and the rush to protect the narrative that they lack the ability to be so.

Because you know, their sexual orientation isn’t really what drove the violence.

I made no reference to their sexual orientation at all. If you had read my post, I'm zeroing in on the mother's hatred of the boy's father and men as a group.

[–]Smelly_Scientist 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Keenin455 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Smelly_Scientist1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sigh. This is my last reply. Hopefully you will understand the situation a little better.

Because since you don’t know about Brazilian politics as it is, you fail to understand that there is currently A LOT of manipulation. Not only of facts (fake news - like the dick bottle I mentioned previously) but in violence too. Our president ordered the murder of a politician (Marielle Franco), they orchestrated a fake murder attempt on Bolsonaro (Adelio Bispo, more on that below), etc. Obviously the Brazilian Justice system is absurdly corrupt (like what we are now finding out about judge Moro) and even though we have many proofs that indicate the Bolsonaro family (that is now in power) was behind all of that, there has been no justice whatsoever.

I’m not saying the violence against that boy didn’t happen or that it wasn’t absurd, I’m just saying the political party in power has no limits in manipulating the people’s opinion. I’m saying the fact that those women “admitted they did it because they hate men” is very suspicious.

Firstly: Most news outlets in Brazil are right-inclined. All tv news outlets are right inclined, some more than others. They are not “dominated” or “controlled” by left ideals, which includes feminism. They all supported the impeachment of Dilma and were in favor of Bolsonaro during elections (he is extreme right and conservative, also really fucking dumb and it’s just a fact, not an opinion).
Bolsonaro won the elections by hiring an American agency that spread fake news on social media, especially WhatsApp. From a very conservative, religious and US-friendly stand, they spread out rumors that (not in chronological order):
1. The left inclining parties (especially the Worker’s Party that was in power for more than a decade) were trying to turn Brazil into a communist or socialist country. (Spoiler: they obviously weren’t. They were trying to better the country’s social problems, like poverty, violence, racism, hunger, analphabetism, etc; they were trying to improve the quality of life of the lower classes and to diminish the astounding socioeconomic gap in our population). 1.1. That the social programs to financially help poor people were a scam. That poor people are lazy and shouldn’t receive help, they could not be poor if they wanted to. (FYI, public school systems in Brazil are absolute shit. Those people didn’t even complete high school. How do you expect them to get out of poverty without education?)
2. the LGBT community wanted to establish a gay dictatorship (“We must stop the gay dictatorship that is dominating our country! They are degenerates, minions of Satan trying to corrupt our youth!”). Which brings us to the Dick Bottles: the biggest fake news that was a turning point in the elections was that the Worker’s Party was distributing “dick bottles” in public schools to teach kids from an early age “how to suck dick” and to turn boys into “gays”. I am not kidding, this fake news was spread out like fire in social media. What’s worse is: many Brazilians believed it was true. And one of the MAJOR arguments was that “no news outlet is reporting this absurdity! Than that means it is true and they don’t want us to know the truth!! Only Bolsonaro’s supporters aren’t brainwashed and know about the truth! You must vote for Bolsonaro to save this country from the corrupted morals of the left!”. Again: I am not kidding. This is what I mean by “you do not understand the current state of Brazilian politics”. Like I said, this isn’t the exact situation with the murder of the little boy (as far as I know they actually murdered him), but Bolsonaro’s party has actually come to the extent of manipulating people with really dumb ideas. He has the strategy to cause cognitive dissonance, and then everyone is confused about what is true and what isn’t. That is partly why there are no consequences for everything he has said and done so far (including murder).
3. That all feminists want to establish a matriarchy. (We don’t. Maybe some idiots do, but we don’t as a movement).
4. That the atheist left is trying to distance our country from God, morals and family. That the majority of Brazilians believe in God and hence we must have a Catholic / Evangelic state (our country is in theory a secular state, at least for now...).
5. That the best way to deal with the violence in Brazil is to allow people to carry guns.
6. That there was no military dictatorship in the 60s. That the military “government” we had back then was great and we should be like that again. Many people started protesting FOR a military dictatorship. I kid you not. Among many others...
About Adelio Bispo: during the elections in 2018, Bolsonaro was stabbed, during a campaign, by Adelio Bispo. What was revealed early on was that he was working solo and he used to work for a left-inclined political party. Seems like a murder attempt by the left, right? (Even though Bolsonaro wasn’t stabbed in a life threatening way, keep that info with you). Later on with the investigations, it was discovered that Adelio trained for many months. He trained with guns, in the same shooting range that one of Bolsonaro’s sons practiced in. But for some reason, instead of shooting Bolsonaro (which would be a lot more effective and could’ve been done long range - easier for him to run away and remain incognito), after MONTHS of training in a shooting range, Adelio decided to stab him in a non-lethal way. Huh. That made Bolsonaro a victim in the public eye and demonized the left. He gained a lot of new “followers” after that. During the trials, Adelio was considered “insane” and is now in a psychiatric prison. He refuses to take medication and shows no symptoms of insanity whatsoever. (If he was mentally ill he would’ve snapped by now without treatment and incarcerated). To this day Bolsonaro blames the left for the “attempt”.
About Marielle Franco: she was a politician. She was a black woman (necessary to state this, this matters - even though more than half of Brazil’s population is self-declared black, practically all politicians and people in power are white and most are very racist, including guess who? That’s right, the Bolsonaro family). She was against police brutality in the communities (favelas) (Brazil is very similar to the US in this regard). She was murdered in 2018, she was shot. The murderer was found - he lived in the same building than one of Bolsonaro’s sons (the same son, in fact). In 2018 a street in Rio received Marielle’s name. A little time later, the sign with her name was broken by conservatives, that celebrated her murder. Here is a picture of it. They are pro-Bolsonaro. The Bolsonaro family did not condone this picture, in fact they celebrated it (the black shirt has Bolsonaro’s face and the yellow shirt is from PSL, Bolsonaro’s party).

Brazil is now slowly but surely falling into a totalitarian rule. I could write about that, but it would take too long. A totalitarian rule that has no regards to human lives and the environment (you might have heard about Amazonia Rainforest being even more devastated each day). Brazil is not controlled by feminists or feminists ideals. We do not and have never controlled major media outlets.

Do you see now what I mean? Tho lesbian women, that wanted to make their kid trans and then murdered him because they hated men... in 2019... during Bolsonaro’s “reign”. It’s complicated. Brazil has always been complicated and is only getting more complicated each day. That’s why we say it isn’t for amateurs. I didn’t even mention about Lava Jato lol. That’s a whole other story, but very important.

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Your feminism is shit

Comments

C L E A R L Y

Title	Your feminism is shit
Author	ELAMAYEYO
Upvotes	4759
Comments	569
Date	July 23, 2019 12:49 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/cglnxp/your_feminism_is_shit/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/your-feminism-is-shit.1205369 https://theredarchive.com/post/1205369