End the "female biological superiority" rhetoric I see so often in men's rights spaces.

Vegetable_Ad1732 · 2024-06-08T05:40:16+00:00

Yup. it's mostly crap. "Girls mature faster"? Girls are allowed to act more mature at a younger age. A boy who acted that way would face lots of trouble, probably get beat up a lot for acting "girly". Boys are EXPECTED to be rough and tumble. If men had superior immune systems, that would be used as a justification for spending more on women's health than on men's health. You know, equity to a balance things out, make the life spans of men and women more equal. Instead, women having better immune systems is being used as a justification to continue spending more on women's health - real clown world stuff.

Men less valuable because women have babies? We have 7 effing billion people, WTF do we need lots of babies now for? I think thinking like this makes men more defeatist, more accepting of female superiority. It's BS.

Unnecessary_Timeline · 2024-06-08T10:19:12+00:00

Feminists refer to this concept as “gender essentialism“ or “biological essentialism“ and they passionately deny it’s existence whenever topics like childhood education, transgenderism, dating age gaps, sex differences in socializing, fertility, athletics, etc are the topic of discussion.

Yet whenever topics like criminality, violence, horniness, or literally anything socially undesirable is discussed, suddenly they become the most fervent supporters of “gender essentialism“. Asserting bigoted positions like males of all ages are inherently violent, or mentally slower, or sexually deviant, the list goes on and on.

This is honestly one of the topics that I think most blatantly shows the amoral and sexist narrative behind academic feminism, and it gets even more bigoted when that academic language trickles down into normal society.

SnooBeans6591 · 2024-06-08T07:49:02+00:00

"We evolved to value female life over male life" - you misplaced this one, it doesn't say anything about "biological superiority".

"We evolved to..." doesn't mean it is good, or ethical, or that we shouldn't try to fix it.

I don't know how much is evolved and how much taught, but it is definitely true that women's life's tend to be more valued than men's (which isn't the same as having more value).

Major-Departure6936 · 2024-06-08T13:31:16+00:00

A lot of that is true, there's also quite a few things you could say in men's favour.

Men are more intelligent on average:

https://lupinepublishers.com/psychology -behavioral-science-journal/pdf/SJPBS.MS.ID.000198.pdf

Men have larger brains after controlling for body mass:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/016028969290013H#:~:text=Males%20displayed%20higher%20scores%20on,standard%20deviation%20higher%20on%20g.

Men are, by a long way, physically superior:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37772882/#:~:text=Biological%20sex%20is%20a%20primary,similar%20age%20and%20training%20status. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00235103

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17186303/

https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/sex-differences-in-the-weightroom

Men produce much greater scientific output: https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/lists/all-nobel-prizes/

And so on. The point is you shouldn't try to deny any differences exist whatsoever, only acknowledge them for what they are.

Different-Product-91 · 2024-06-08T06:49:43+00:00

It is no wonder that feminists and their male supporters would belive and repeat this kind of bs, but it is incomprehensible why MRAs sometimes fall in the same trap. Stop it, look around you and see how things really are!

WolfInTheMiddle · 2024-06-08T07:27:08+00:00

I never understood the maturity argument because it’s not true, appearing reserved at a young age doesn’t mean more mature. If they want to argue girls mature faster than boys because girls don’t tend to mature much past a certain age compared to boys then it would make more sense, but the fact is I have seen immature behavior from women that to them seems perfectly normal because society revolves around not hurting women’s feelings examples are possessiveness and entitlement to other peoples things, no accountability for hurtful actions (I’m just a girl teehee) (well that’s his fault because…). Is this biological, societal or both?

Mefic_vest · 2024-06-08T06:37:55+00:00

Girls mature faster,

They have to mature faster. Woman's peak fertility is between the ages of 16 and 28. Some have that shifted a bit earlier, others a bit later, but this tends to be the period of maximum fertility. So evolutionarily speaking, it is ideal for women to mature fast and early in order to effectively bear and raise children.

Men, on the other hand, have no such requirement. So while they mature later, I have seen neurological evidence that they also have no hard stop. Or in other words, any sort of “stop conditions” for their maturity. Men just keep on maturing… slower, yes; but also without any end cap.

So which is superior? Let’s just say that I am very happy to be a man in that department.

women have superior immune systems

Not so much superior immune systems, but rather two X chromosomes to help avoid more genetic illnesses linked to sex chromosomes. That’s it, really. I would categorize this as more of an accidental evolutionary advantage than any sort of biological superiority.

men are less valuable because in the unlikely event that there are 100 people left on Earth then one man could impregnate all the women,

Ironically, the opposite is true. Because women’s high-fertility zone lies in a 10-12 year span, and because men see relatively similar fertility throughout their entire life, you get greater genetic diversity in the end population by having more men than women in the initial cohort. Don’t have the study at my fingertips, but it was examining the logistics of a founding population on planets like Mars where the population would no longer be refreshed from the outside.

Just commenting in general without any overt say for or against your screed.

carpeCactus · 2024-06-08T14:55:35+00:00

Western school systems are set up in such a way that females do better. Boys are active learners and need to work with models, girls can passively sit and retain info. And as far as maturity goes, in my experience…girls/women mature up to a point and then continue to act like girls the rest of their lives.

RikuAotsuki · 2024-06-08T11:55:39+00:00

To be honest I've always seen "girls mature faster" as referring specifically to puberty. Girls start and end it earlier, on average, which also means that the associated hormonal maelstrom also ends earlier.

I wouldn't be even remotely surprised if the phrase has been co-opted, but I always saw it used in that context, often to reassure boys who were getting self-conscious because girls were getting growth spurts first.

A lot of social/emotional stuff women are said to be better at is a society thing, though. Women do tend more nurturing and empathetic, but any superiority regarding emotion needs to be taken with a grain of salt, because so many men have been emotionally crippled since childhood, which is very much not a fair playing field.

Street_Conflict_9008 · 2024-06-08T11:02:41+00:00

I am no expert on this, but I have an awkward suspicion that the maturity argument is more based on biology and social interaction. Girls on average hit puberty about 2 years earlier than boys. Then there is the social collective group think that tends to develop earlier in girls.

There are biological reasons for this, especially when the average life expectancy was less than 25yo, and you were considered to be old at the age of 30+. Females in this time faced more risks especially during pregnancy and child birth. This required a more collective approach for the safety of birthing, for both the child and mother.

Boys on the other hand develop their collective group think by testing each other, and then working with each other to protect the tribe. The collective approach becomes more of a structured hierarchy.

Both sexes played different roles in the survival and growth of our species.

We are getting to the point where science is becoming godlike, and this is used to create an ego centric push on gender superiority.

The issue with 1 male and 9 females does not account for various factors like health and other risks. If you were to use the 1 male to 9 females, there is most likely going to be a population collapse. The weak point here is any negative issues the male will have will be compounded over time. The infertility of the one male will see the end of the population.

A 50/50 split will see a risk spread, and it will minimise negative effects. Children are the future, we are the present.

Suspicious-Sleep5227 · 2024-06-08T06:51:57+00:00

Some of this stems from historical marginalization of women and a feeling that “we should make men the second class citizen of today since women were second class citizens of yesterday.” This of course only breeds resentment instead of progress. Also some of this discussion is a little disingenuous. For example when talking about the vote getting extended to women over 100 years ago, many will make it sound like all men have had the right to vote since the dawn of time. However the right to vote was not extended to all men until about 150 to 200 years ago. Before that it was just a privileged few men who could vote.

Also I think a lot of it stems from overconfidence which has been cultivated by diversity quotas, removal of all barriers to entry to all occupations and a culture telling them that they can “do it all” and they don’t “need a man”. In this environment, men are told constantly by women that “they don’t need them” and in romantic relationships they are told they are not needed unless they bring a higher level of empathy and emotional intelligence. All this rhetoric has created an environment in which men are asked what they have to offer women. This of course has always been the case but nowadays it is magnified by an order of magnitude. But more importantly women have completely disregarded the needs of men since they seem to think it’s all about them.

Without women offering anything that men want and being asked to constantly “level up” to be on “their level”, men are checking out. What happens thereafter is more men and women will end up single since more men will be using their only remaining leverage which is to walk away. Many women will wonder “where all the good men have gone” and remain completely ignorant to the true causes of their single hood.

PuzzleheadedBug2338 · 2024-06-08T11:15:36+00:00

It's a disagreeable notion even to feminst circles, because to their ears it comes off a justification for our behavior.

Almost touching the way we sit here worrying that every new embarrassing conclusion from a research paper will go to their heads, only for their victim complex to reject it as well.

Same thing for the view that "men can't control their emotions," btw.

g1455ofwater · 2024-06-08T06:26:52+00:00

Some people really don't like opposing the system so they explain boys failing behind by saying boys mature slower so it enables them a way not to call out the intentional neglect of boys in the school system. That's why you can't trust those that place importance on appeasing the mainstream.

Salamadierha · 2024-06-08T10:49:31+00:00

Rememeber that there's no censorship on this sub, and no "ban the evil feminists" so you will get people who agree with and prosetylise such beliefs. If you don't agree with them, say so.

While I agree with the no censorship policy, I think that regular offenders should get their yellow star, flaired to show their position. Then if they don't agree with their flair, they can say so.

Prestigious_Tailor19 · 2024-06-08T16:35:36+00:00

https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2024/02/women-autoimmune.html#:\~:text=Somewhere%20between%2024%20and%2050,of%20those%20people%20are%20women.

4 out of 5 patients with autoimmune disease are women. Definitely not an advantage in that regard.

Cephalon_Gilgamesh · 2024-06-08T18:44:42+00:00

Women aren't biologically superior, not by a long shot.

Periods.

Osteoporosis.

Iron deficiency.

%15 lifetime chance of breast cancer.

Being weaker overall due to less muscle mass accumulation.

Having more autoimmune diseases(Lupus, MS, Sjörgen's you name it.). (%400)

Poorer pain tolerance.

I think being a man is far better than being a woman.

Capn--Flint · 2024-06-08T12:31:41+00:00

I appreciate you're calling out how common female supremacist rhetoric and mentality is in these spaces. It's far too common and I don't believe that we'll be able to change much before we've stopped that tendency. It's outright sad to see how many men actually believe that men are defective women.

I think that there's two main reasons we see this sort of rhetoric so often:

What we discuss in these spaces goes against the zeitgeist, so a lot of people who approve of the status quo actively seek these spaces out, in an attempt to get the dissenters back in line. There's also a lot of false flag posts and comments, which sadly means that it's necessary to be wary of anyone who hasn't clearly shown that they don't support female supremacist ideas. I've seen it a bunch in this very sub, a lot will understand that they are being discriminated against, and then place the entirety of the blame on other men or boys, instead for placing it on the supremacists.
The propaganda is being thrown at us from all sides, you see it in the news media, the entertainment media, in the education system, in the pseudo scientific direction academia has taken, in the speeches of policy makers. We are now at a point where these talking points has trickled down to the common man and woman and we have entire generations who have been spoon fed this drivel their entire lives.

It might seem less relevant why we see so many men argue for female supremacy, but in order to change it, it's necessary to know and talk about how difficult it is to even properly understand how wrong and malignant the prevailing narrative is. But calling it out is certainly a step in the right direction.

Tiny_Professional358 · 2024-06-08T17:57:29+00:00

Misandrist don’t understand basic biology and that a man is necessary for more than just child rearing.

_name_of_the_user_ · 2024-06-08T18:38:49+00:00

"men are less valuable because in the unlikely event that there are 100 people left on Earth then one man could impregnate all the women,"... "we evolved to value female life over male life."

These two are true though. And without understanding these mechanisms we will never get people to see how gynocentric the world is and we will never get people to see how much traditional gender roles and present day expectations of men alike both dehumanize men. Until we do that, we will never get equality.

Roddy0608 · 2024-06-08T19:59:08+00:00

"Girls mature faster,"

That doesn't make them superior.

jessi387 · 2024-06-08T06:26:06+00:00

Ya. Richard reeves is a complete tool for his idea of red shirting. I guarantee it will o Ly make the problem much worse. I wish people like him would not get any air time

TabulaRasa5678 · 2024-06-08T11:14:36+00:00

There are a lot of things that I see in mens' areas that I would like to say I'm not fond of, but people don't like the truth, so I stay quiet. I will say this though, when you can't speak openly about things that others may disagree with, you've already lost half of the battle.

Lonewolf_087 · 2024-06-08T19:08:00+00:00

It depends on the person more than anything I don’t think it is gender related more experience related so I agree.

Rex9 · 2024-06-08T11:07:42+00:00

It is discussions like this that make me want to leave this space.

Grand-Juggernaut6937 · 2024-06-08T18:59:32+00:00

There are legitimate differences between genders. Women do have better immune systems just like we are naturally more athletic. And women do start puberty before men on average, that doesn’t make them more mentally mature, but their bodies do begin that stage of life before we do, although typically for less time. All in terms of averages of course.

But I agree with you in terms of things like “emotional intelligence.” People don’t realize this but it’s a case where emotional intelligence has been defined by its ease of women understanding it. Men aren’t unintelligent, we just think differently than women so women perpetuate the stereotype that we’re “dumber” because we don’t play by the same rules as them.

Same for education. Many teachers think women are smarter because most women are teachers, who create lessons that are more engaging if the pupils are also women. For instance If English class focused on masculine classics (Hemingway, Melville, etc.) men would drastically outperform women because they are the target audience of those stories.

And yes your thoughts on redshirting are spot on. Men are a year behind because they constantly have to learn the mentality of women for their age, while women just have to be themselves. If men are doing poorly it indicates the teachers are not equipped to teach to men.

RoryTate · 2024-06-08T13:26:55+00:00

Your post confuses some variants of the naturalistic fallacy – which should be criticized whenever they exist – with the unarguable fact that certain sex differences do exist and are real. Your assertion basically boils down to: "We mustn't say true things if they harm our position." or "Some idiots might think we are saying this is the way things should be, so we can't talk about these facts.". I fundamentally disagree with both of these stances. The truth about our world cannot be sexist, nor can it be racist, etc. And if people interpret it wrong, we already have the recourse of pointing out their fallacy to them, to correct the issue should they perceive it too broadly.

Furthermore, your immediate strawmanning of everyone who disagrees with you as "believing in XX supremacy" shows that you are not arguing in good faith. Many commenters have noted that a few of the observed sex differences you mention do confer separate – and arguably greater! – benefits to men, but you choose to ignore their actual positions in favour of bad faith misinterpretations to then insult them with what amounts to name-calling. Even worse, you do this right in your post by poisoning the well against your opponents before people can listen to their actual positions and judge for themselves, which is another way you use bad faith tactics to sow confusion and cause useless drama.

Learn how to argue objectively, and stop using bad faith tactics, before you post here. Considering your behaviour and the fact your account is only 9 hours old, along with the timing of your posting (the weekend is when many such deceptive attempts to cause drama occur), I'm inclined to believe that this is just a third-party troll attempt, and not a genuine, good faith attempt at discussion.

TBFProgrammer · 2024-06-08T15:33:03+00:00

“He who fights with monsters should see to it that he does not thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you” ~Frederich Nietzsche

This both misunderstands evolution and simply serves as a fallacious and frankly malicious justification for treating men as disposable (which they absolutely are not). People who comment like this simply seek to give people reason to treat men poorly. "Even if it's not right," u/AskingToFeminists says, "there are good reasons men should be considered less valuable," all while completely misunderstanding evolution. His argument holds no merit as that is simply not how evolution works.

You haven't actually provided a counter argument here, just stated that this represents a misunderstanding repeatedly. If you wish to actually alter the way people behave, you're going to at least need to state the error in the position.

"Girls mature faster,"

At least physically, this is accurate. Girls reach and complete puberty faster on average. It is also worth noting that delayed maturation has been shown in some studies to correlate with higher levels of intelligence, though I don't believe this is definitive at this time. Faster maturation is not necessarily a good thing.

"men are less valuable because in the unlikely event that there are 100 people left on Earth then one man could impregnate all the women,"

Value judgement is inherently subjective. This is one possible internally consistent measure of value. It cannot be refuted, you can only choose to measure value according to other metrics.

"we evolved to value female life over male life."

This is entirely consistent with existing scientific evidence regarding how the average human assigns values. The existing evidence is insufficient to rule out sociological factors in how that value is assigned, but there also does not exist any strong evidence to disprove the statement to my knowledge.

Your post reads to me as being driven by the same kind of emotional and uncompromising reasoning that motivates feminism, just with an inverted bias. In every case you argue from and with passion, with signifiers of reason invoked as buzzwords, yet there is not one reasoned argument actually put forward in your post.

So I went searching through your replies here to see if you actually did elaborate when it was requested, and found this horrid little gem:

I don't spend time giving biology lessons to female supremacists.

This is a textbook feminist question-dodging tactic that you have repurposed. You have spent too long fighting the monster without care and it has warped you.

dependency_injector · 2024-06-08T06:00:58+00:00

Being able to develop a new human body inside your own body is a superpower, no less

adam-l · 2024-06-08T10:23:01+00:00

Let me try to address some of these points, raising people's ire, no doubt.

"Girls mature faster": they do. But that's not an argument for "female biological superiority", because they don't mature as far. Characteristically, studies on the moral development of men vs women have typically found women reaching only Kohlberg's Conventional level (3 out of 6), so much so that a female (Gilligan) had to construct a whole different moral theory, in order to avoid the comparison.

"Women have superior immune systems": that's not exactly the case. What is the case is that pathogens tend to express their behavior more aggressively on males, because females are the bottleneck on the reproduction of their hosts. "Man flu" is a thing.

"Women are more emotionally intelligent" is wildly inaccurate. Psychopathy tends to be differently dispersed in males vs females (as is the case with most traits). So there are more cases of extreme psychopathy in men, as well as more cases of men that almost totally lack psychopathy, while the average female has a dose of it.

"we evolved to value female life over male life.": This is perfectly accurate. It doesn't mean that female are "superior", though. Just that they are perceived as such, hence the gynocracy typically found, in various flavors, in about all human societies.

hottake_toothache · 2024-06-08T14:02:12+00:00

We should support the truth. Men and women each have biological advantages. I do not support policing the discussion to shame people from saying what they believe is the truth, and their theories supporting their view.

kkkan2020 · 2024-06-08T14:17:56+00:00

we know one thing is true... women do live longer than men on average. is it because of superior immune system or was it because of other things? we can only tell if women will keep living longer with the millennial generation and onward since women now work as many hours as men so if they still live longer than something in side them is allowing them to live longer.

TFCNU · 2024-06-08T18:43:07+00:00

Back in the olden times, before 99% of the male spaces on this site were nuked from orbit, TRP used to describe itself as amoral. The goal was to confront the world as it is without injecting morality into it. The MRM is inherently moral. I appreciate your moral outrage here. But it still doesn't do anyone any good to deny reality. So, as an example, I agree that the red shirting idea is hamfisted and sends the wrong message. However, I'm not going to sit here and ignore the mountain of data that shows that pre-pubescent girls outperform their male counterparts because it's potentially interpreted as female supremacy. There's no moral virtue in pretending the problem doesn't exist.

StudyVisible275 · 2024-06-08T12:52:20+00:00

But male supremacy is unchallenged.

Title	End the "female biological superiority" rhetoric I see so often in men's rights spaces.
Author	Pristine-Bridge-6822
Upvotes	297
Comments	115
Date	June 8, 2024 4:31 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1daunia/end_the_female_biological_superiority_rhetoric_i/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/end-the-female-biological-superiority-rhetoric-i.1520899 https://theredarchive.com/post/1520899

Comments