I was telling my sister that I’d been engaging with lots of feminist groups and men’s rights groups, but she was saying she doesn’t think calling them men’s rights groups is the right terminology because there’s a lot of rights that men have had over the years that women haven’t

onlinethrowaway2020 · 2024-06-23T19:11:27+00:00

Well there are many rights that women have had that men have not throughout history and also currently. This sub consistently highlights that. Also feminist and egalitarian are not synonyms. Just look at the misandrist policies modern feminism fights for (affirmative consent, MeToo accusations, criminalizing discomforting women, etc). If you believe in gender equality, then call yourself an egalitarian. But yes, people do seem to prefer men's issues as the term, for issues includes not only legal rights but also much more.

SvitlanaLeo · 2024-06-24T01:30:34+00:00

It’s just that when men get the right not to be subjected to corporal punishment (which women already have at this point), it’s called an achievement in human rights, and when women get the right to vote (which men already have at this point), it’s called an achievement in women’s rights. Gynopopulist rhetoric leads to cognitive distortions.

This may be considered androcentrism when men are confused with Men, but it is also a way of erasure of the history of discrimination against men.

Plenty_Lettuce5418 · 2024-06-24T01:12:01+00:00

feminism and egalitarianism are not synonymous. feminism is activism for womens rights.

StarZax · 2024-06-24T11:28:56+00:00

“a feminist is just somebody who believes in equal rights”

That's under the assumption that women are necessarily undervalued, have fewer rights, are oppressed etc .... which isn't necessarily true. The point of MRA is to say that men also have specific issues. People will often say that it's just a « backlash against feminism » because it just says that men aren't perpetrators of every wrong in the world.

If you truly believe in « equal rights » then call yourself an egalitarian. Calling yourself a feminist is basically saying, « I'm only analyzing what are equal rights through the lenses of women ». Why shouldn't we, as men, be able to also analyze what could be equal rights ? Do we really have to let women decide what's equal ?

I think that when it comes to that, our both perspectives need to be respected. I can't imagine what it's like being a woman, just like women can't believe what it's like to be a man. Therefore, compromises must be made in some aspects. I have nothing against making compromises myself, that's what I used to say when I would call myself a feminist, but when I saw that no feminist would also acknowledge my experiences, I knew something was wrong.

So yes, the vast majority of people calling themselves feminists are widely misinformed, that's for sure. But you know what ? It's not an excuse to me. Whenever people are saying men are trash, kill all men, calling to androcide or basically saying awful shit about men, they aren't really going against that. The issue is that radical feminism IS the norm, it's been like that for a while now. The patriarchy theory is born from radical feminism.

And saying that WE, as men, dominate basically everything is absolutely crazy. It's always about the percentage of CEOs, but never about the garbage and sewage cleaners, construction workers, or those who are simply so much more at risk.

So no, there's no patriarchy. The patriarchy is only a play to transform the class struggle into a « gender struggle » that doesn't make sense. As if what's important about the CEOs, presidents and other people in power, were the fact that they were male ..... while conveniently forgetting that women in these positions act the same (if not worse)

Just tell her : if you call yourself a feminist, saying it's about equal rights. That's because you only believe in your own lens and don't even consider the lens of men, who live through life a completely different way and you aren't able to imagine it, the same way men aren't able to imagine what it's like to be a woman. Feminism is about women's rights, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be men's rights or that men do not need progress in any field whatsoever.

You could also use their own play against them : when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. Maybe that's how they feel when men are asking for domestic violence shelters, father's rights, reproductive rights, mental health recognition, equality in draft (that's a big thing), and overall just stop being seen as « less » in society (I mean, how many times have you heard in the news « X amount of people have been kill, Y percentage of them were women and children »)

Or just tell her to open a book about the history of feminism. It's closely related with misandry. Now, one could say that changed .... But again : maybe if she would try to see that from our lens, she would understand why we don't think it did.

Ok_Comment_8515 · 2024-06-24T08:52:26+00:00

Saying being a feminist is only about believing in equal rights is like saying being a communist is only about believing in workers rights. Its a gross simplification that ignores all class, or in this case gendered, analysis that is vital to understand feminism. Your a pretty bad feminist if you think that. I don't think it's a bad thing mind you. But its wrong to assume feminism is in the beat intrest of men

jameskies · 2024-06-25T19:37:48+00:00

Well the term rights is thrown around its lost its meaning

Current_Finding_4066 · 2024-06-23T19:09:08+00:00

She believe that men had some imaginary rights, so she is problematic at best.

Like voting right? The ones most men did not have either?

What the fuck is she talking about? Except spouting feminist propaganda?

Cause the reality is that members of the elite had the rights and all the rest had none or few rights, regardless of sex.

throwaway1231697 · 2024-06-23T19:14:06+00:00

I agree with you completely. A lot of feminists nowadays are too focused on getting angry instead of gender equality.

Why is the label important? Can I call myself a feminist and go out there and start discriminating against women? What matters is how you behave and what you believe.

There’s a lot of rights that women have, which men don’t. In modern countries like Singapore, only women are entitled to alimony. In countries like England, women cannot be charged with rape. Vice versa too, especially in the past. But tell your sister the past isn’t what defines the current state of affairs. Unless she wants to go back to a patriarchal system? We should focus on gender equality in today’s climate.

2024-06-23T19:16:22+00:00

Ask her if she thinks murder never happens because it’s illegal. Also, just because you have rights, doesn’t mean that there aren’t people willing to take them away.

griii2 · 2024-06-23T19:26:54+00:00

In the west there are no laws and regulations that discriminate against women but plenty of laws and regulations that discriminate against men.

r/SystemicSexism

Proud_Rural · 2024-06-23T20:32:45+00:00

Her kind of feminism is actually nice. She believes in women's rights while avoiding men-bashing and general misandrist crap.

she gets mad with me not calling myself a feminist and using the label egalitarian instead- she says they’re the same thing.

In my opinion, it would be the best to agree to disagree in terms of labels, as your views are similar.

That said, I also prefer calling myself an egalitarian, as the term "feminism" is inherently tied to women: it comes from the Latin word "femina". And using this women-skewed term to label pro-equality views may be a bit inconsistent.

But it's just a semantic issue. You both try to make the society better both for men and women, which deserves respect.

WokeUpIAmStillAlive · 2024-06-23T20:38:34+00:00

Misinformed misandry is still misandry

simplymoreproficient · 2024-06-23T21:26:16+00:00

There‘s two kinds of feminists: extremist ones and ones who pretend the former don’t exist.

Hyperbolic of course (and not like that doesn’t happen for other ideological groups ever) but still unfortunately largely the case. It’s hard to talk to the latter group about it as well because if you do, you’re putting yourself in an inherently weak position and they will simply lose respect for you.

Johntoreno · 2024-06-23T23:03:16+00:00

and she gets mad with me not calling myself a feminist and using the label egalitarian instead- she says they’re the same thing

If they're the same thing, why is she upset? That's like me getting mad at someone for calling themselves a male advocate instead of an MRA.

What does everybody think?

I'm interested in hearing about the MRA points you completely disagree with.

JACCO2008 · 2024-06-24T01:03:05+00:00

Any "rights" women think men have explicitly had that they haven't (not many) are completely offset by the fact that women have 100% of the control over reproduction for all of human history. They can manipulate men to into getting pregnant. They can cheat men out of their genetic lineage by secretly using another man's sperm. They can realistically abort at any time for any reason.

Women have always been in control of the most important aspect of human existence and they have never been afraid to wield that control or use it to exercise power. Many wars have been both started and ended because women decided to withhold sex or did not provide children.

Main-Tiger8593 · 2024-06-24T02:58:45+00:00

so you "as self proclaimed egalitarian" judge the whole mra movement because you saw some hypocrits or imposters spreading misogyny? do you do the same with feminism and misandry? oh wait i forgot feminism is no monolith double standard... eyeroll

to be cristal clear a true mra recognizes that tate and davis are harmful for mens rights... the sad thing is they pick some facts and create an arbitary narrative out of it to raise their followship for max profit... there are several redpill podcast similiar to that influencing young men because progressives neglect them...

several conservative AND liberal "not all ofcourse" stances for example about upbringing of children and social/health security are also harmful...

had to post here instead under your comment because of some error...

btw ask your sister if she understands coercion, double standards and the difference between equality vs equity... specially regarding upbringing of children, parental surrender and consent...

feminism vs mens rights activism

Embarrassed_Chest76 · 2024-06-24T04:22:15+00:00

If feminism were so egalitarian, it'd be called egalitarianism.

Camelsnake · 2024-06-24T04:37:01+00:00

Did you ask her what rights that men have that women don't right now?

hottake_toothache · 2024-06-24T14:42:43+00:00

My experience talking with women about these issues is that, for most of them, the idea of having empathy for men as a group simply does not compute.

Tbh, my personal experience having many of these conversations has significantly updated my presupposition about what women are like.

Leinadro · 2024-06-26T14:23:17+00:00

Ask her to name right now what rights men have that women don't. Not rights that men had and women didn't in the past and have been corrected but right now on this day what rights do men have that women don't.

Blauwpetje · 2024-06-26T15:36:30+00:00

They may not be misandrist but they virtually all believe in boundless affirmative action, raising children in a ‘genderless’ way even when the children clearly don’t want it, policing male sexuality so as never to make women uncomfortable and having double standards about that, preventing violence against women while largely ignoring violence against men etc etc etc etc. Stating feminism is not so bad as long as it isn’t explicit misandry misses the point by far.

dr_pepper02 · 2024-06-29T06:45:11+00:00

While there is some truth to that what modern day feminists have never lived in a man’s world, and they’re arrogant enough to think they know a man’s experience better than a man.

The flaw in their theory is they only look at the rich man and rich woman’s experience and think that’s universal to all men. They forget about the experience of the working class man and woman, men have had on continue to have responsibility that women don’t want and work to avoid.

When they get treated like men they’re suddenly shocked and think they’re being mistreated.

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