Profs say female STEM grades don’t reflect ‘perceived effort’ - they propose that “science educators could redistribute grades more akin to non-STEM disciplines to increase STEM retention.”

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July 27, 2018

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Title Profs say female STEM grades don’t reflect ‘perceived effort’ - they propose that “science educators could redistribute grades more akin to non-STEM disciplines to increase STEM retention.”
Author redpillschool
Upvotes 638
Comments 173
Date 27 July 2018 03:16 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
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[–][deleted] 628 points629 points  (36 children) | Copy

female students believe they work harder than their male classmates for similar grades, indicating that "women's higher perceived effort levels are not rewarded."


[–]Galbert123122 points123 points  (16 children) | Copy

female students believe they work harder than their male classmates for similar grades

They very well might! Effort =/= results. Thats the concept that they're missing. Rather than playing to strengths, people sometimes put themselves into a position where they need to work exponentially harder than others for the same end. For some, that is a source of motivation. For others, its ammunition to complain about inequality. Efforts, while well and good, dont really put food on the table. Results do. This is not just in academia/grades, but across all industries. Find something you're good and and fucking crush it. If you have to work twice as hard as your peers for the same result, maybe thats not the field for you, or maybe you end up having an AHA moment and stuff starts to click all at once. But blaming those who are succeeding is a bit of a cop-out.

[–]Retaliate1st62 points63 points  (1 child) | Copy

A fish would go its entire life thinking it’s retarded, if it only tried to climb trees.

[–]majaka123410 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

And would starve to death if it decided leaves were tastier than kelp.

[–]Dravous24 points25 points  (6 children) | Copy

Efforts, while well and good, dont really put food on the table. Results do.

this is something women really have a hart time understanding. I've seen them complain about not getting praise for doing a job for 8 hours. except the job could have been done in 3, if they weren't fucking around and doing it the way they were supposed to. but try and explain that and they loose their shit.

[–]whatever985513 points14 points  (1 child) | Copy

The "everyone has to go to college" rhetoric in education today feeds in to this. I knew at a young age that I couldn't keep up academically. There are other paths that you can take if you're a hard worker but don't quite have what it takes academically, and it would be nice if the school system accepted it. Ultimately, it is your responsibility though.

[–]askmrcia2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm going to use my friend as an example based on your comment. He tried college and dropped it because it wasn't for him.

Got a job at a chain restaurant as a cook. He also served as well because the place he worked at had shitty staff. So he did both.

Worked his way up to running his own store.

Hard work? Yup.

But he makes just as much if not more than most college grads at the age of 27 and he does not have the loans. He's already considered a district manager position.

It's not the most lucrative career, but it's proof that there are other paths out there and if you're good at it, it will pay off

[–]ohyeawellyousuck9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy

My college professor said it best. Some of you will work hours each night on homework and studying, go to every lecture and recitation, work in study groups, and still struggle to maintain passing grades. Others will show up only for tests and ace them all. That may seem unfair. Well. Life isn't fair. Sometimes you have to work harder than everyone else, and you'll still come up short. That's life. Learn it now, and it'll be easier to accept later.

[–]beathelas21 points22 points  (2 children) | Copy

Like how volleyball nets are lower for women, and golf has closer tees for women. Education programs could have different grade standards for women too

[–]Galbert12335 points36 points  (0 children) | Copy

Those examples are women competing against women. Education is coed. I kinda see your point but I kinda don’t think it applies.

[–]Atolla210 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

Same with sports being adjusted for children

[–]well-ok-then4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Also takes them more effort to write their name in the snow. Maybe instead of complaining and having special accommodations, don't major in pee-writing

[–]Bestoftherest222129 points130 points  (3 children) | Copy

This is akin to a 400 pound female crying why she isn't 110 pounds when she "puts in the effort." Honey the effort is the result.

[–]1AlfredKinsey1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Or a scabies tramp complaining that she can't find a good man to marry her.

[–]djh86016 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy

It’s a proven fact that people tend to over estimate their abilities, this is no different.

[–]chinagreenelvis 1 points [recovered]  (5 children) | Copy

And yet, if the system were to reward them according to their perceived effort, it would go to their heads, spoil the fuck out of them, and they'd act like they know everything.

That being said, I find the idea of moving away from number/letter-based grades on papers and projects where feedback is more appropriate interesting - not for women in particular, but just in general. Grading has always seemed fairly arbitrary to me when it's not a rote test of correct-answer questions.

[–]moonlandings27 points28 points  (0 children) | Copy

They're talking about STEM. more or less right/wrong questions. There's no feedback other than whether you were right or wrong.

[–]Dravous6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy

And yet, if the system were to reward them according to their perceived effort, it would go to their heads, spoil the fuck out of them, and they'd act like they know everything.

have you taken a look around lately?

[–]NormalAndy1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

The issue is big institutions who find it convenient to filter society by grades rather than getting to know them.

I get the point but it means that many good people miss out because they don't fit the mould.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Agreed. The system you propose is simply improved.

[–]1Zanford29 points30 points  (1 child) | Copy

female students believe they work harder than their male classmates for similar grades

their lack of self awareness is astounding

"We have to work harder to get the same results. That proves we are actually better "

[–]lipidsly23 points24 points  (0 children) | Copy

Remember this when someone tells you the system is unfair.

Sure, it could be unfair to you or it could be people are better than you.

No, no it couldnt be that. Because were all equal.

[–]Hillarysdilddo_20162 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

The salient point is they are admitting they are literally dumber than their male cohorts.

discovered that while women felt they put more effort into their classes than men, they received approximately equivalent grades


They put in more effort for the same result. That means they're dumber.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

Results - Effort = Efficiency.

[–]1AlfredKinsey2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

You summarized a two-paragraph comment I'd been drafting.

[–]NormalAndy1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

On the other hand, praising effort produces better students than praising results.

Girls are just generally much easier to handle, more bookish and are less interested in physical activity.

The issue is that employers are looking at grades, rather than people, for office work which does not require physical activity.

Still, it is no surprise that a more feminised society doesn't cater well for boys.

Fathers, once again, you cannot afford to be absent. Your sons desperately need good role models and orientation away from being blue pilled failures. The harder part is that you may have to wait until they are 20 before you can be effective! Patience is key...

[–]1Ill_Will7337 points338 points  (9 children) | Copy

"Don't reflect perceived effort?"

My perceived effort of working hard makes me believe I should be a billionaire.

Please refer me to the department of free money for crying like a itchbay

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev61 points62 points  (5 children) | Copy

The title of the article should be updated to “self-perceived” effort.

It’s a version of “Lake Wobegon” Syndrome - where all the women are strong, the men are good-looking and all the children are above average.

[–]MoDuReddit10 points11 points  (4 children) | Copy

“Lake Wobegon” Syndrome

Thank you for the unknown reference (to me).

[–]U_Lika_Da_Tomato5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy

Prairie Home Companion. It's a radio program from npr, if you're still unaware.

[–]reluctantly_red7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy

Was a radio program -- the host got me too'd.

[–]myfault93 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy

Just identify as a billionaire and sue the banks for not having your money.

[–]1Ill_Will71 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

not bad. Will call my lawyer and see what my options are.

Got to get paid.

Without working for it of course.

[–]Balls_so_hard6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

I carry a note book with me and keep my head down when walking around the office to encourage people to perceive me as higher effort than I am.

[–]SweatyAdvance 1 points [recovered]  (10 children) | Copy

Did anyone here see the paper posted a few days ago that said female students receive significantly higher grades from female middle school teachers than boys did. And that the female students believed that they would be getting higher grades from male teachers, that they didn't get, which was then perceived as male sexism.

This appears to me to be just more of that. These female students think that the male professors aren't grading them high enough, and it must be because "muh patriarchy" and definitely not because they haven't earned higher grades.

[–]Mickleton_Mouseroo21 points22 points  (8 children) | Copy

How is this even possible? For my education you answered your questions, got graded against a markscheme, and your grade was determined by where your total marks sat in a grade boundary which applied to everyone taking the test. I just don’t understand how there can even be an opportunity for sexism and privilege to affect given grades.

[–]Atolla220 points21 points  (7 children) | Copy

Grades for essays and other subjective pieces of work could vary wildly though. I remember letting a kid copy my essay early in high-school.

He got 13/20 (65%) & I got 19/20 (95%). Different teachers & he was an absolute nuisance in class. Not surprising at all that other forms of bias exist.

[–]Eorlingat16 points17 points  (5 children) | Copy

Stem however, leaves much less room for interpretation. Math classes, you either have the answer or don't. Same with chemistry, engineering, biology... these aren't creative arts, they are results based. The grades aren't based on the work put in, it's pretty results, and if women in stem aren't keeping up, it's not the professors' fault.

[–]pame125 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy

That's not quiet true. I can't speak for chemistry, or biology, but for computer science (software engineering) there are instances of bias. For example if you write code in a similar style to whoever is going to mark it, then you might get a few brownie points (subconsciously) from the marker. Another example would be making a software without any libraries (doing everything yourself), it could give you extra brownie points, or it could subtract, depending on who's marking.

A more interesting example would be parallelism. A parallelised software could work fine for a long time, but one day it can go kaput. So a "does it work?" measurement doesn't work here for sure.

[–]Eorlingat4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

In an engineering class, I had a female TA give me a poor grade on a CAD drawing I made. I made it in full orthographic projection, with every dimension neatly, properly placed in a way that could have been given to a machinist and they could make the part. She marked me down, because I "didn't have a 3d model." The female students from my study group got full credit for modeling a much less complex part and not dimensioning anything. I had to go over her head to the professor on that one - in the industry, no one uses dimensionless 3d models. The arbitrary, subjective nature of a lot of the assignments in that class really rubbed me the wrong way.

[–]pame120 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yes I can relate somewhat, though in my situation resolving it didn't help. And then there was my friend...

[–]Atolla21 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I can't speak for the sciences, but as someone who studied Economics (which could be seen as quite black & white), there were huge, subjectively graded components.

[–]1AlfredKinsey0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I've had some professors (men and women) interject themselves in biology and psychology courses, including far to much subjective grading into their syllabus, mostly through projects/papers. In terms of biology courses, I experienced this in a conservation course and an intro to biological engineering course.

[–]Banned-in-Boston 1 points [recovered]  (26 children) | Copy

"I really, really, really worked very hard on that highway bridge engineering plan. OMG! All those people died when it failed. It couldn't have been my design, I tried very, very, very hard in college and got a B+ in all my classes! Its NOT MY FAULT!"

Said every curve-graded STEM graduate with a pussypass.

[–]lorum_ipsum_dolor108 points109 points  (21 children) | Copy

It's all fun and games until an engineering catastrophe kills a bunch of people. There's a reason why many scientific fields are so rigorous. There are lives at stake and minor mistakes can lead to big disasters.

[–]Toastermaface64 points65 points  (17 children) | Copy

cough the pedestrian bridge in Miami cough

[–][deleted] 35 points36 points  (15 children) | Copy

How many women are involved? I recall it was mostly women

[–]Not_One_PieceOfTrash65 points66 points  (14 children) | Copy

[–]2comment52 points53 points  (3 children) | Copy

At least the victims were diverse.

[–]Not_One_PieceOfTrash19 points20 points  (2 children) | Copy

yup diversity makes it perfectly balanced

[–]Ivan_The_Reddish31 points32 points  (3 children) | Copy

Huh. Usually the people responsible for disasters like this are raked over the coals by the press, but the whole story seems to have died a quick and quiet death in the national media. None of the articles I read about it right after it happened mentioned the engineers being women either. Makes you go "Hmmm..."

[–]grandmasbroach11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy

They actually just blamed the few men in the company and business went on as usual. I've read that story from several sources. Most of the engineers were women. There were a few male laborers and managers, but that was it. The ended up being the ones getting raked over the coals in the media. Look it up if you don't believe me. But, in today's fucked up world, I don't think it's really that hard to believe.

[–]Not_One_PieceOfTrash22 points23 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah... probably cuz the political climate right now doesn't allow that sort of questioning?

[–]Balls_so_hard2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy

[–]grandmasbroach13 points14 points  (1 child) | Copy

Read it, the owners were male. They weren't the ones doing the building. That was the female engineers and construction workers who did that. The article contradicts itself. But, you have to scroll all the way to the bottom and they barely cover it. The board members were male, and so were the owners, they're five brothers. However, the vast majority of their engineers and workers are in fact female.

[–]majaka123420 points21 points  (0 children) | Copy

Snopes purposely editorialising their fact checking?

Say it ain't so!


[–]ntvirtue11 points12 points  (2 children) | Copy

You are using snopes as a fact checker?

[–]Balls_so_hard0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Adding context. The article posted is misleading.

[–]LandoChronus13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy

The best part was she still felt she was being a strong female role model for her daughter.

Her failure was irrelevant, the fact that she as a woman became an engineer was success to her.

[–]1McDrMuffinMan18 points19 points  (2 children) | Copy

I mean I've heard it from a friend who was talking with me about politics,

"I'm an engineer, if I believe in bullshit people will die, I have to live and work by facts or people will die. It's why I'm a conservative. I don't have an option to believe in bullshit."

[–]Not_One_PieceOfTrash9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy

thats what makes physics so nice, gravity doesn't give a shit about your feelings

[–][deleted] 36 points37 points  (0 children) | Copy

Ugh... That woman who bullshitted as if she were a lead designer of that collapsed Florida bridge. Once it fell, she made it loud and clear she had nothing to do with it.

She was literally taking credit for men's work right up until that day.

[–]Endorsed Contributorredpillbanana12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy

Plenty of people forget this point.

I don't want the affirmative action doctor operating on my mother.

I don't want the affirmative action pilot flying my plane.

And I don't want the affirmative action engineers designing my buildings, roads, and bridges.

Diversity is fine for beauty contests, advertising, modeling, entertainment, and other similarly unimportant shit. For the important stuff we need a pure meritocracy.

[–]Not_One_PieceOfTrash19 points20 points  (0 children) | Copy

"Said every curve-graded STEM graduate with a pussypass."

Hold on while i clean off my monitor from spitting out water all over them from laughing...

[–]zamtrivedi2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Exactly what I was thinking, wtf is going on with people

[–]thrway1312157 points158 points  (11 children) | Copy

Women inflating their efforts to make themselves feel better about the reality that they're treating study time as social hour

Nice try hamsters, engineering won't succumb to feels before reals because there's actual repercussions for unqualified practicing engineers

[–]MoDuReddit54 points55 points  (0 children) | Copy

"I FEEL that this bridge will hold!"

[–]NorthEasternNomad26 points27 points  (9 children) | Copy

My fiance is a poster child, congratulating herself for her help around the house.

Oh, you mean the one meal you cooked. Sometime last week.

They think talking about effort is the same as putting it forth. It's the Facebook "I Support XYZ" generation.

News flash: typing on Facebook isnt supporting shit.

[–]monadyne17 points18 points  (6 children) | Copy

And yet this creature is your "fiancé"? You're going to sign up for a lifetime with her? Care to explain to your brothers here just what your thinking is with this plan???

[–]NorthEasternNomad4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy

I'm thinking "Finish my degree, and bail." Thats what I am thinking. This degree is my primary focus right now anyway, so, its not as if I have tons of free time I could be using for other stuff.

Once its done, I will be more than happy to upset the apple cart.

[–]monadyne5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

Please keep in mind that you're just one birth control slip-up away from having your exit strategy -whatever it is- yanked away from you.

[–]NorthEasternNomad2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Neither of us can have kids, actually. Thats not a concern, thankfully.

But a good point, if it were.

[–]1AlfredKinsey0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Are you intertwined with her financially or something? Why the holdout?

[–]NorthEasternNomad0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Splitting up financial intertwining peacefully, and simply focusing on the degree. I need this degree for job advancement, and while I am doing it, I am not going to have much of a life anyway. So why not just get it over with before rocking the boat.

[–]1AlfredKinsey1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

FWIW, I was in a similar boat, but am perfectly fine despite breaking up with my ex towards the end of spring semester. It is important to value your time and spend it well.

Make sure that the relationship is not causing undue stress or unhappiness, that it is not limiting your potential. If it is, you are better to let it go and reclaim your life.

[–]ggggggggee45 points46 points  (3 children) | Copy

I was programming in the computer lab once and then a bunch of female liberal arts majors came in. They had a talk on "Females in Stem." I shit you not, one of them complained that if she was "exposed" to STEM as a kid she might have majored in comp sci instead of Ethnic Studies.....I was never exposed to programming or math past algebra...I just signed up for the classes LMFAO.

The entitlement and victimhood mentality where nothing is their fault is unreal. Just take responsibility for your actions and try it out...or just admit that you didn't want to have to go through all of the painful classes...don't blame "not being exposed".

[–]aircavscout20 points21 points  (0 children) | Copy

I was exposed to stem my entire life. Vaccinations, cars, clean drinking water, buildings... all designed/developed by STEM majors.

[–]tentacle_8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy

Did they ever wonder how their smartphones worked? Magic?

[–]1AlfredKinsey4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Men are disposable, even wizards.

[–][deleted] 38 points39 points  (2 children) | Copy

I "perceive" a generation of young men learning science and technology through YouTube videos instead, and still being better at it.

[–]1AlfredKinsey4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

Half of the videos I watch to learn programming and electronics are by prepubescent boys.

[–]MoDuReddit2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I've found my self listening attentively to pre-pubescent boys on technical issues more than once. Latest one was a niche collectible scale metal cars. Boy, did that kid know about how to tell a 20$ model from a 200$ model!

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorCopperFox3c71 points72 points  (2 children) | Copy

Meritocracy ... RIP.

On a related note, my experience teaching STEM at a major university in the United States (described down in the comments) was that many of the people in those departments these days don't have any business teaching anyone. Many of them don't understand the point of education is to teach people how to think, not what to think.

The bias is rampant, Orwellian though-speak, Harrison Bergeron type attempts at "equality of outcomes" ... is even starting to creep into traditional STEM fields.

[–]Ezaar2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thank you.

[–]Profdiddy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Not my experience teaching STEM at uni.

[–]doubtless_abyss32 points33 points  (1 child) | Copy

Praying to God I never get medical treatment from anyone who graduated with all A’s for effort

[–]grewapair14 points15 points  (0 children) | Copy

All my doctors are Asian. That's not an accident.

[–]JcHgvr31 points32 points  (6 children) | Copy

This is nothing to laugh at, female students at math exam in Oxford university were given extra 10 minutes of time to help them get their grades up. Slowly but surely man are being pushed to the bottom at every part of life.

[–]FinalPrince12 points13 points  (4 children) | Copy

..did this actually happen?! "Ok males the exam is over please leave the hall, females you have 10 more minutes." Utter lunacy

[–]Ivan_The_Reddish16 points17 points  (2 children) | Copy

Not quite, but the same effect. Men were getting higher grades, but they were more likely to work faster and finish earlier than women. So they gave everyone more time, which disproportionately helps those who do not have as good of a grasp of the subject matter (women). And the whole intent was entirely to give women a boost.

Oh, Freddy Fast finished the exam early because he actually knows what he's doing? Well fuck him we're going to give Suzie Slow all the time in the world, and even though Suzie can't count past ten unless she's wearing sandals we'll do our damndest to make sure they end up with the same score.

[–]JcHgvr3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

No, only woman were extra time and it was 15 minutes, link above.

[–]Ivan_The_Reddish1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

The article has a correction at the bottom stating that both sexes were given the extra time.

Not that I'd put it past the left to only give women the extra time if they thought they could get away with it.

[–]Cantloginhere2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Fairly sure everyone got extra time, but the motivation was to help women get top grades. By all accounts it only helped those at the bottom get slightly better results.

[–]kremer552 points53 points  (10 children) | Copy

if they work harder to receive similar grades, doesn't that imply lesser competency? most tests in STEM courses are anonymous, a fill in the bubble exam graded by a machine. so unless the machines were programmed to be sexist...

i don't think women are less competent - just pointing out how this was not thought through

[–]2comment7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

if they work harder to receive similar grades

If. But how would they know? Do they follow the guys home? Do they look at their past academic career? Not everyone who shows up to college, comes with the same core competencies even if they took the same classes. There are a lot of people who pass a class with A's but never truly absorbed the material longterm, they were just good at cramming or got all the bonus point and other bullshit some teachers hand out.

I remember a female engineering student writing up her experience, and after 2 semesters asking how the guys do it so casually compared to her effort, and they told her how much they actually study and she was "OMG!" and hadn't considered it before. Because she was out weekends while they're life was school with only a few hours downtime each week.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

That's not true for stem courses. Engineering in particular is about problem solving, so for a given problem there are plenty of ways of finding an answer. This means that most test in my experience we're open ended and graded by ta's.

[–]kremer52 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

i misspoke about math/eng. most of my chem/bio courses were multiple choice exams

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It really does depend on the subject. My earlier classes involved massive amounts of people and a lot of memorization so professors had to rely on multiple choice. But my later classes were more about applying that knowledge to the bigger picture and had class sizes as small as 12 (versus 50-200) so multiple choice tests were not ideal, and didn't allow for partial credit.

You just have to memorize so much for bio and chem that you never really have to move past the memorization, versus something like mechanical engineering where everything is basically some derivative of momentum, material science, or thermodynamics.

[–]chinagreenelvis 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy

Working harder is not necessarily working smarter.

Without knowing the details of the study, however, it may be that the women questioned aren't actually working harder (How do you qualify or quantify what "harder" is?), but that they feel everything more (as women do) so they think that the burden they carry as students is greater than those the men do.

That such a question could be answered at all seems ridiculous to me and insanely sexist. If someone were to ask me, "Do you work harder than women in your business," how the fuck should I know? Do I spend my time concerned with how much effort they put into their jobs? No, I spend my time just trying to get ahead and worrying about my own work.

If your sense of self-worth is dependent upon your competition with another sex, race, creed, subculture, or class, then you're probably doing it wrong.

[–]Lazysaurus9 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy

At my job, all the women have their heads buried in their cell phones all day while me and the other guys have our heads buried in our work. That's how I know I work harder than the women.

[–]Wabbajak4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

The same goes for university libraries, there was a recent thread about this topic. There are men and women who go to the library in order to learn and get things done. However, most women go there in groups in order learn hard for classes or upcoming exams by drinking coffee, buying shoes online, chatting on FB or Whatsapp. Most men go there alone in order to actually fucking learn and get things done.

Men may be addicted to porn and gaming but women are addicted to smartphones and validation.

[–]FlyingSexistPig9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy

I was going to agree. I want the person who can do the pythagorean formula in their head, not one who takes an hour to do it.

[–]anono_throwaway1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Not really. It's not that women work harder to receive similar grades, but that they "perceive" that they work harder while receiving similar grades in the aftermath. For example, I thought I was studying average during my undergrad days, but I'd score as well as my friend's gf who thought she was the most diligent student. She had a reputation of being a bookworm but once I got to know her, I realized she was studying just as hard as anyone else. It's all perception.

EDIT: And most tests in STEM courses aren't anonymous, especially in a "small university in the midwest". Everything you take is recorded for the books.

[–]RandomReeditUser18 points19 points  (0 children) | Copy

Do you want more collapsed bridges? Because this is how you get more collapsed bridges.

[–][deleted] 41 points42 points  (5 children) | Copy

women's higher perceived effort levels are not rewarded

perceived effort levels

It just doesn't get any better than this now does it?

Take note it doesn't say 'STEM grades don't reflect actual effort'. It is perceived effort. The study shows women aren't actually working as hard, or harder, than their male colleagues. In other words, women think that McNerd or Chadlogger just stroll into class, work less hard, and do as good or better when it is not reality, and we apparently need to changing grading practices to reflect this.

It would actually be more acceptable in my opinion if it found women actually work as hard as men, but are just not as good at the old maths and logical reasoning things, and in an effort to make up for that they get a bump. That would still be shit, don't get me wrong, but accommodating perceived work ethic differences is substantially worse - it's validating delusion, not reality.

But let's set aside the white knighting and 'strong independent womyn' who performed the study for a moment, and think of the subjects - the women.

Are any of us surprised by this? I'm sure as fuck not. The vast majority of women I've dated perceive working as hard as I do, and I'm sure I'm not unique. This is what drives women who work at the fucking DMV or a receptionist to demand their engineer/lawyer/doctor/entrepreneur husband to 'do half' the house work because 'I work hard too, you shitlord'. It's delusional - they are not able to think rationally in any sense of the word when it comes to this.

My advice- I actually counter this now by dating 'down' for plates when we are talking relative occupations - way down. Waitresses, hairdressers, basic occupations really. Most of these women are so in awe of what I do because it carries so much more responsibility than theirs than you get less of this shit. Plus, they tend to be hotter and more pleasant all around in my experience.

[–]jiveraffe 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy

In other words, women think that McNerd or Chadlogger just stroll into class, work less hard, and do as good or better

Dudes are practicing the Laws of Power. Make your achievements look effortless.

Men know that nobody gives a fuck how much shit they went through to earn their degree, or to get jacked, or rich. So they don't bother touting those difficulties. Because nobody cares if they have a tough time. Men are disposable.

And probably they're thinking through the problem on their way home because it's a puzzle to be solved not a means to a grade.

So they roll in the next day, after spending the evening working through it, remark offhandedly that is was tough and reveal their solution. The women only see the result, not the effort behind it because they don't care about the effort behind it.

[–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (0 children) | Copy

I think you're giving too much credit here.

This is solipsism at its finest. These chicks are in the same classes, same study groups, labs, etc., as the guys. Its right in front of their faces. Sure, there is some proportion of stoic Laws of Power guys, but not a statistically significant amount.

These chicks are just thinking I worked really hard, and boo-hoo me, and they're not even thinking about how hard the other guys are working relative to them. It doesn't enter their thought process to assess this relativity.

[–]Frimost561 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy

You speak the truth.

When I was earning my Bachelor's degree in Math, I dated and/or befriended a few self-proclaimed female "intellectuals". Seeing what the "most intelligent" women at my Tier I University had to offer in terms of actual wisdom really brought my esteem for the female sex down to a more realistic level, and even caused me to take a second look at the hypothesis that the average man is more intelligent than the average woman (which I'm more sympathetic to than I was before, but not entirely convinced of...yet).

The hallmark of such women seems to be that they think reading a lot automatically qualifies them as intelligent; it was amazing how that was the one trait they all shared. (I, on the other hand, feel less intelligent the more I learn)

My biggest crush right now is a 20-something cashier who goes to church every Sunday and loves that show This Is Us. She probably doesn't even have a college degree, but there's something so appealing about being around someone who doesn't feel the need to prove how intelligent they are all the time.

Friendly word of advice, gents: Don't date girls who--directly or indirectly--refer to themselves as smart, bookish, nerdy, etc.

[–]liptonreddit0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You have a serious confidence problem.

[–]Dazzing6717 points18 points  (0 children) | Copy

i feel like females got this delusional view because statistics keep saying 70% of uni graduates are women, without mentioning what studies they majored in. besides that is also the difference that we have testosterone, even if males drop out, chances are they're still gonna be earning more by starting own bussinesses etc. i mean grades and degrees are not a free pass to success. testosterone gives us more drive to be agressive and competitive and to be very motivated.

[–]Zahlix 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy


Source: Graduate Engineer

[–]Diabloist33716 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy

Man : 2 + 2 = 4

Scored 2 out of 5 because of Male Privilege

Woman : 2 + 2 = "I feel sad because I dreamed about a red flower"

Scored 5 out of 5 because of Perceived Effort.

Makes sense.

[–]Exodus23051 points52 points  (0 children) | Copy

Men work hard and think they can work harder.

Women dont work hard but think they couldn't work harder.

[–]everydaythrowaway7510 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

Two quick takes:

Thoughtful take: Why should anyone’s “perceived efforts” ever be rewarded. Why should we ever value effort? IDGAF how hard you try, only about results. The more you can accomplish per unit of effort the better. We should reward smart and effective efforts that lead to success. Effort has no value in and of itself.

Snarky take: I’m sure I’ll only be in a “perceived” plane crash when the engine fan blade separates due to “perceived” shitty engineering done by someone who “perceives” their effort as good enough.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

Nature doesn't care how hard you work. It's only in an overly maternal society that people start caring about your effort, let alone your self perceived effort. Nature cares about results.

If you want to destroy our society then feminize STEM. The more patriarchal societies will pull ahead.

This isn't a matter of "men smart, women dumb". It's just the simple fact that the values women have are of a nurturing quality so that they can raise babies to be good children. The values men have are to teach children to be adults who live in our cold reality. STEM isn't about feelings and as soon as it is it ceases to be STEM and turns into a daycare.

[–]justtenofusinhere9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy

That's typical for the female mindset. They want to be minimally invested so they can claim a full share. "I'll carry the trowell, you carry the ten 50lb bags of cement, and together we'll get everything set up!"

[–]can_you_read6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

That article cherry-picked the hell out of the study. Did you bother to read it? They didn't separate most things out by gender, and they didn't recommend redistributing grades more akin to non-STEM disciplines, they just mentioned that someone else has suggested that. A single sentence, about someone else's idea, buried in the discussion. Finally, in that comment where they mention that, there was no mention of gender and that section wasn't about gender; that was a comment about the effect of grades on motivation in the entire study population, men and women included.

Check your sources. You should be embarrassed for repeated cherry-picked and misleading drivel.

[–]usku12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy

An individual with Down’s syndrome will have to work harder then most, but would likely not get the grades required to pass a STEM related course.

Do we reward that individuals perceived effort with a degree in structural engineering?

Not saying it’s entirely comparable, but rewarding people who are not capable of making the grade in a highly competitive and highly technical field results in buildings that tip over, planes that fall out of the sky, and biotech companies that create homeopathic vaccines.

[–]BobSagetV26 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

In other news: "Bridge collapses because the engineers didn't learn anything in college"

[–]1Zanford6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

I like how they inadvertently admit that non-STEM grades are bullshit and based on 'perceived effort'

That won't fly in STEM. "Yeah the bridge collapsed and killed people, but we worked really hard on it!!"

[–]1AlfredKinsey2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

That won't fly in STEM.

You underestimate mankind's stupidity, greed, and fear.

[–]1Zanford2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Well yeah, it will fly in STEM for awhile, in the sense that other people will be there to bail out the underqualified princess who is the face of the project. In practice diversity hiring acts like an income tax on everyone else: you do more work, and some of the output of it (both money and accolades) go to the tokens.

[–]Original_Username711 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy

CEO who hires STEM professionals here. I was avoiding hiring women after #METOO, now I'll definitely be doing it since it sounds like their grades will likely be fabricated too.

I'm sorry, but most women do actually still WANT to be hirable, right?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Holy fuck balls. They deserve better grades because they FEEL they worked harder? I kept hoping this was a Onion post.

[–]ISaidThatOnPurpose1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Are women saying they are less capable in this??

[–]Aconite_Eagle2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy's perceived....individual perception is irrelevant. Results only matter. Idiots.

[–]Cantloginhere5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

This is fake news for sure, did you read the other link where 'professors' want to redefine physics because of white male privilege? Apprently 'the laws of nature' imply a male law maker indicative of the white patriarchy. I kid you not. This either a troll site or spoof.

[–]can_you_read0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It's definitely fake news: the linked article cherry-picked the study and misrepresents it's findings. The grade-motivational effect was reported independent of gender. They didn't suggest changing grading practices, they cited that someone else has suggested that. Finally, the people who did suggest that showed that rates of continuation in the field were more affected by grade in men than women. This isn't suggesting we prop up women in science. The linked article is shit and the title misrepresents the findings.

[–]1McDrMuffinMan3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Welfarism... But in schools, oh how the social left is hell bent on destroying everything in their pursuit of social justice

Maybe we could... You know... Admit men and women are different?

[–]TheDevilsAdvokaat2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

When will this foulness end?

Now they want to grade women not on how hard they work, but how hard they FELT they worked?

Not only is feminism toxic, it's outright becoming dangerous. This is a wonderful way to destroy science education.

Let's reward people not based on merit, but based on how hard THEY think they worked!

[–]SILENTSAM692 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Those who can get better grades with less effort deserve the highest grades. Those who struggle to achieve should not be rewarded.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

So....more collapsed bridges.

[–]thetotalpackage72 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Ever notice the hoops that crazy libtards jump through to explain the obvious?

[–]sjdfhskdjfh2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I definitely want them designing the airplanes I ride in

[–]Ezaar1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

You get fisted evenly, irrespective of gender in the STEM

[–]pbar1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

In other news, a study shows that more women would become airline pilots if grades on their licensing tests reflected their perceived effort to learn how to fly a plane.

[–]rossiFan1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

This doesn't just pertain to females, though. As companies and learning institutions shoe horn unqualified people into positions and student slots in the name of diversity, your product's quality will suffer. The FAA is finding this same ailment in their ATC program.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

My perceived level of effort means that my boss should pay me more than other employees. Do I get that or do I need to a pussy ?

[–]FOldGG1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Hmmm. Combine this discussion with the grade inflation of high schools that in some major cities produce less than 20% of students unable to demonstrate proficiency in math and english and then see how it turns out for all of us.

Just seems that equal opportunity is still the best target, understanding it does not produce equal outcomes.

[–]grandmasbroach1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

When a female engineers bridge collapses and kills a bunch of people. Are they just going to say... Well, she tried so hard when she was building it though, so you can't be mad🤣

[–]Zirealeredin1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Jesus Christ we are in trouble

[–]kyledontcare1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Are the ladies at the female owned engineering company who built the collapsed bridge in Florida the ones who had their grades redistributed? Who cares if they put in effort? Is their work right? That's the important point.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Have heard this from women before, in one particular example it was "I have to work FOUR times harder than the men doing the same job as me".

In other words, she believed that men could do their job in 10 hours and she had to work 40.

[–]Even_the_Yuenglings1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

This entire thread is falsified. The study made no mention of ANY gender bias whatsoever in the abstract OR data. Jesus christ this entire sub has been infiltrated by incels and morons who CHOOSE not to read.

[–]c_w_o_o_l_l_y3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

They should realize that degrees as well as salaries aren't a reflection of how hard you work by itself. It's how hard you work multiplied by your utility. Women may work harder, but they have less utility in STEM fields. Something about being less logical, idk...

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Here we go. Once you allow women into your institution they will erode it until it no longer has any value. On a micro scale we see this with individual things like academia, the military, and corporations. On a macro scale we see that allowing women into the body-politic erodes the entire fabric of the civilization. Men are civilization. It is a system created by men to distribute pussy evenly so that there is social tranquility. Women were always just along for the ride. Once the west decided that women could be part of the decision making process, it signed its own death warrant.

[–]Press2ForEnglish3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Liberalism is a cancer that kills everything it touches. If you don't remove it at the cellular level it will spread to your area eventually.

Ignoring it won't stop it from spreading.

[–]FlyingSexistPig1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I don't care about your feels. I care that you did the science and math correctly and got the right answer. It's important that your long history of getting the right answers gives me confidence that you did everything right to land the spacecraft on a comet.

[–]Chitlinsandgravy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I could only respect the fact that the professors involved are having this discussion to acknowledge the "problem" as a form of Machiavellianism. Other's have covered entitlement.

I feel the need to echo Milo by stating that more women aren't in STEM by choice.

[–]Nov516050 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Wow, how could these women be thinking straight when they are providing the answer with their own statement ?
They have to worker harder to barely even get the same results as dudes - HELLO!

[–]PithyPneumothorax0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

“This is John Galt speaking...”

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Well duh professors say that. They wanna keep their fucking jobs.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is simply robbing the stem corporations of highly skilled,highly intelligent workers... this will destroy the country... this has to be the doing of the russians or someone who wants to fuck u.s companies right up

[–]Banincoming0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Dumb people can work harder and still get worse grades.

[–]Dravous0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

see, this is when planes start falling out of the sky and people get killed for not receiving the correct meds. it's all well in good when your degree in feminist dance theory gets you nothing but a job at starbucks, but when lives actually depend on you knowing wtf you're talking about, it's time to put away the kid gloves.

[–]francisco_DANKonia0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

effort is great and all but it's completely worthless if you still suck

[–]binrobinro0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If someone's splicing my genes for me, I don't give a shit about their "sense of self-efficacy". I just want it done right.

[–]tyrryt0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Too bad aircraft engines and skyscraper foundations don't give a fuck about your "perceived effort".

[–]idontdrinkvodka0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

What the hell.

Tests on STEM rewards knowledge, not effort. Knowledge.

Including, some people do well on tests without needing near as much effort as other people usually do, because they have knowledge. As tests rewards knowledge, these gifted people get to move upwards quickly. Knowledge.

Oh yeah, we can not afford to have engineers getting graded just because of "effort" whatever gender this person identifies as. Else, there will be planes, bridges and skyscrapers falling on us as result.

[–]monadyne0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The bridge you're designing doesn't care how hard you worked on the project, or the personal hurdles you overcame. It only cares if the physics of the loads and stresses are adequately dealt with... so the bridge won't collapse. Grading on a curve may be appropriate in entirely subjective academic fields, like Lesbian Dance Theory, or even Comparative Literature, but not in STEM fields.

[–]derindel0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Prepare to have a bunch of shit fall down in the next 10 years. Shit like this is un fucking believable.

[–]Sin-Silver0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I’m dyslexic and dyspraxic and had to work 50% harder than all my university In order to pass my electronics degree.

If we where marked on “perceived effort” I would have gone to Cambridge.

[–]chalbersma0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

STEM Education done well is all about rewarding outcomes not effort. If you and your peer get the same answer but your peer gets it faster or with less effort that's called efficiency. That's what STEM done well is trying to teach.

[–]newName5434560 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Meanwhile women don't reward effort men put in bettering themselves, only want the final product.

[–]killabeesindafront0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

In my med school orientation, ~90% of the presenters were female. Notable exceptions include the intramural sports guy and the cop.

[–]1Your_Coke_Dealer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy


That’s all I needed to see here

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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