Is Calling Out Toxic Femininity Misogynistic?

sunkindonut149 · 2017-11-21T15:59:04+00:00

I am wondering if calling out toxic femininity is considered to be misogynistic. I'm not really sure how to describe it but, like Nixon and porno, I know...

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If your boyfriend doesn't know what this (picture of a clip) is... You have a girlfriend

That's not a clip, that's the bolt carrier group from an AR-15.

Toxic masculinity is called toxic because it's harmful to men (and the people around them). It's a concept created by the mythopoetic men's movement and is about certain sets of masculine norms.

The difficulty i have with the concept is that it doesn't really prescribe any sort of identity for men. It, like feminism, robs the most common sort of men, of purpose and replaces it with nothing.

Women get "a woman's place is in the house and in the Senate" t-shirts and "strong women may we know them may we be them may we raise them" shit. Men get, "don't do this" and "don't do that" and "that's bad," etc.

Even if i agreed that the concept of toxic masculinity innocently critiques harmful male social constructs, again these left gender movements don't give men any sort of core to build their identity onto. I can safely say that that's why I'm not a feminist, and i think that's why a lot of men these days aren't. Social justice just offers scolding, and nothing else.

Who wants to be part of a movement like that? What's just about destroying purpose for half the population?

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Complexity my left testicle. It's the most senseless idea ever. How exactly will you counter "toxic masculinity"? By pointing out what specific behaviors are toxic and making sure men don't engage in them? Good plan, except, intentionally or unintentionally you've just even more narrowed what types of masculine behaviors are acceptable, congratulations you've just contributed to toxic masculinity in your quest to solve it.

The only way you can "fight" toxic masculinity is by doing.......nothing. Tell people what behaviors get punished and what behaviors get rewarded and leave it to them what they want to do, if they engage in bad behaviors punish them and if they engage in good behaviors reward them. Guess what? We've been doing this for centuries, it's called law and order and gasp it's not limited exclusively to masculinity or femininity, it covers all people equally.

So your complex academic idea is just a shitty version of a system that has been in place since forever. Congratulations.

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Okay, now that we're on the same page...

I disagree. Pointing out that certain behaviors are toxic is not restricting how anyone can be a man, any more than pointing out that touching a hot stove will hurt your hand restricts what you can touch.

It's about awareness, not forcing anyone to change. Many of these toxic behaviors are only engaged in because so many men don't realize or don't believe that there's a choice, they think the only way to "be a man" is to be aggressive and violent and never show weakness or emotion.

The whole point of talking about "toxic masculinity" is to recognize that is what our culture teaches men and work to change that. It's not about forcing men to change if that's who they are, but if that isn't who they want to be they should be allowed to define masculinity in other ways without society beating them down for it.

Identifying and discussing toxic masculinity is about changing the culture, not individual men. If boys were taught by the media they consume and the role models they look up to that it is okay to show emotion, that it is okay to seek help, that you don't need to be violent to be manly, that there are many ways to be masculine, not just a few, these harmful behaviors would diminish and the men they grow into would be happier and healthier. In turn, the cultural changes would ripple back up and adult men who might have felt forced into a restrictive mould of masculinity will start feeling more comfortable breaking out of that with less fear of being considered un-manly.

[–]Temperfuelmma2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Anarchkitty1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The problem is what you consider toxic won't be what I consider toxic and what we both consider toxic may not be what somebody else consider toxic.

That's why it's a discussion.

There is already a system in place to discourage and punish obvious toxic behaviors like violence, rape, etc called the law and order.

That doesn't address that men are commonly taught in our culture that they need to do those things (and many other things that are harmful but not illegal) to "be a real man".

Everything else is personal preference, you can nag someone about how you think a behavior is toxic all you want but unless that person shares the same viewpoint as you they won't accept it, they'll just thinking you're controlling and annoying.

Again, that's why it's a discussion. It's not about forcing (or nagging) anyone to do anything.

I spent a long time trying to write a comprehensive and reasonable response to actually have a discussion, it makes me less motivated to actually talk to you when you just take a sentence fragment from my first paragraph and ignore everything else.

[–]Temperfuelmma1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

and many other things that are harmful but not illegal

Again, this is where you're wrong. What you consider harmful won't be what someone else consider harmful and unless someone shares the same viewpoint as you your insistence that a behavior is harmful will not make sense to him, if he shared the same viewpoint as you then you wouldn't have to insist that some behaviors are toxic in the first place because you both would automatically agree with each other. When someone automatically doesn't agree with you then that means that their viewpoint is different from yours, instead of accepting it you choose to resort to "your viewpoint is wrong mine is right".

Say you're preaching these and these behaviors are toxic, you encounter a person that doesn't share your viewpoint and disagree with you. What will you do then?

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If you almost overdosed then they were definitely presses that contained something other than alprazolam.

You should let people know this stuff. Xanax itself is a pretty safe drug on its own. It's addictive of course and if you mix it with other downers it can be dangerous, but Xanax on its own is not gonna make you OD.

However, most of the bars out there on the streets are not real. They're made in some guy's basement and could contain anything.

Look at /r/Xanaxcartel it's a whole sub dedicated to buying pressed bars. Over there they do press with actual alprazolam, but there's no guarantee the ones you get on the street won't have something more dangerous in them.

The size of the fake bar market is huge. A UK presser who recently shut down pressed 250k a month. This is in the UK where bars aren't even a real thing. In the US your vendors are probably putting out millions combined.

Pfizer even has their own private police force to catch these people. No joke.

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First: how high are you?

Secondly: it depends.

Is someone using it in the correct way and is calling out aspects of the feminine gender role that can be harmful? Not misogynistic

For example if you talk about how the idea that women are supposed to shut up, submit and do what they are told can be harmful that's a non-misogynstic way of talking about it.

Is it a MGTOW or TRPer making a claim about how almost all women are illogical children that shouldn't have been given the right to vote because they vote wrong? Yeah that's misogynistic, but them evidently being incapable of understanding what toxic masculinity even means shows that they can't understand what toxic femininity means either.

All in all, No talking about toxic femininity isn't misogynistic unless someone uses it incorrectly as "toxic traits that I assume are true for almost all women"

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Another example of behavior that seems to be largely feminine but I'd consider "toxic" is what I'd call the "hierarchy of politeness". A lot of women will be smiley and act like they care about someone even though they actually feel contempt for them, then they'll go talk crap behind their backs or "ghost" them when that person tries to become friendly with them.

I've come to realize there's a way to tell if this kind of woman dislikes you - don't interpret the way she treats you at face value, compare it to the way she treats others. If she's just smiling at you and making small talk with few words, but going into detailed conversations and smiling more genuinely and laughing with others, chances are she doesn't think very highly of you.

I don't think this is typical of all women by any means, I'd say it's more typical of the ESFJ and ISFJ personality types, which make up about 35% of the female population and probably more of the stereotypical "hot chicks" that guys are attracted to. And some men definitely do it too.

In my opinion if you don't like someone, you shouldn't be a dick to them, but I prefer they make it clear they want nothing to do with me rather than "ghosting" me later on.

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Not all women exist in historical female gender roles, so that is a fallacy. It seems your the one looking to make blanket statements about all women.

How am I making a blanket statement about all women?

I'm talking about femininity. I'm not talking about women.

It's believing women are the only gender capable of being vulnerable or in need of help, that men have no struggles compared to women.

But why is that femininity? Men having no struggles is making a statement about men so if anything it would be toxic masculinity.

But it's not even making a statement about what it means to be masculine or how a man should behave so I don't see how bad behavior of some feminists relates to toxic femininity.

If you want to use those concepts in the correct way you could talk about an related topic. Male disposability is about men. The idea that men don't suffer (and shaming those that do as not being real men) and that men are supposed to sacrifice themselves in order to protect others is an example of toxic masculinity being harmful to men.

Does judging an entire gender and saying their depression or suicides don't matter not seem toxic to you? Wow.

How is that femininity though? Who says that women should tell men that their suicides don't matter? Who says that it's feminine to tell men that they don't care about their depression?

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Making that a statement like that isn't something that is associated with femininity in our culture even if a woman is saying it, and it isn't making a harmful assertion about femininity. Therefore while it is toxic, making that statement isn't "toxic femininity".

Now we are just cherry picking what gets allowed to be associated with femininity or not.

The statement itself is toxic masculinity though.

Again, this is a direct contradiction.

If the belief that female depression and suicide is valid and concerning, while male suicide and depression doesn't matter is not feminine than its also not masculine.

Or at least it is promoting toxic masculinity,

Let me give you an example and perhaps you will get where the flaw in your logic is.

If someone makes comments such as "All Lives Matter" or that black people commit most of the violent crime, or "black on black crime", those statements are regarded as racist, they aren't thought of as toxic-blackism. The toxicity of the idea has to do with whom it's coming from, not the statement itself.

[–]LSTW12342 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Anarchkitty1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Now we are just cherry picking what gets allowed to be associated with femininity or not.

Fair enough. In my experience making that claim has never been held up or promoted as inherently feminine or masculine. You might have a different experience. If it is a feminine thing, then it is toxic femininity, the only disagreement is whether it is feminine and I'm happy to agree to disagree on that specific point.

The statement itself is toxic masculinity though.

Again, this is a direct contradiction.

If the belief that female depression and suicide is valid and concerning, while male suicide and depression doesn't matter is not feminine than its also not masculine.

Sorry, I didn't mean that the belief is masculine, I mean that the result of the belief influences the perception of masculinity in a toxic way. The idea that male depression and suicide is invalid or unimportant is rooted in the toxic masculine idea that men need to be stoic and self-controlled all the time and shouldn't show emotion, especially sadness, or weakness, especially emotional weakness.

On the other hand the belief that female depression and suicide is valid and concerning isn't toxic because they is how depression and suicide should be addressed. Male depression should be treated with the same care and compassion.

The toxicity of the idea has to do with whom it's coming from, not the statement itself.

That's where you're wrong. Toxic masculinity can come from men or women. The word "masculinity" refers to the way it affects the image or ideals of masculinity that society teaches us and that we internalize.

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[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Femininity is the quality of being a woman. It's ingrained in the definition.

Womanhood is the state of being a woman.

The definition of femininity is: a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles generally associated with girls and women.

Femininities are the sum of all attributes that are perceived to convey womanhood.

You can't move the goal posts there.

I'm not. I'm merely using the correct definition. "toxic femininity/masculinity" are terms that are used in gender studies and that's how gender studies (and Wikipedia) define femininity.

But why is that femininity? Men having no struggles is making a statement about men so if anything it would be toxic masculinity.

You just contradicted yourself. You just said femininity has nothing to do with being a woman yet you believe masculinity is inherently tied to men or being a man.

I didn't though.

Read this part of my comment as well

"this is making a statement about (how) men (are)"

Masculinity is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles associated with boys and men.

"men have no struggles" is part of this set. It's a attribute that is associated with men.

When I talk about masculinity I talk about a set of traits that are associated with the state of being a man, but I'm not talking about how men are.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

"men have no struggles" is part of this set. It's a attribute that is associated with men.

But the issue here is your framing anything said about men by women as having nothing to do with women themselves, despite that woman may be a feminist. Your attempting to define these terms in such a way where femininity cannot be viewed or defined as toxic.

If a woman believes that women do have challenges, issues, and valid reasons to feel vulnerable, yet men do not and that male suicides don't matter as much as female ones, thats an expression of femininity. Like you said here:

The definition of femininity is: a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles generally associated with girls and women.

So if the behavior of a woman is toxic and that behavior is in reference to the toxic treatment of men that's toxic femininity. The behavior is not one of men, we are talking about the woman's behavior.

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[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

But the issue here is your framing anything said about men by women as having nothing to do with women themselves

That's your black and white thinking and not what I'm saying.

despite that woman may be a feminist.

How does her being a feminist matter?

Your attempting to define these terms in such a way where femininity cannot be viewed or defined as toxic.

Because in this case it doesn't matter who's promoting the idea of how men should be.

If there's a sentiment like "men should do X" or "men are like X" then that has something to do with masculinity. Even if it is a woman who says it.

Because we are talking about society associating certain traits with men and women are part of society.

If you would bring up an example of actual toxic femininity it would still be toxic femininity even if it is a man who is promoting a way of how women should be.

If a woman believes that women do have challenges, issues, and valid reasons to feel vulnerable, yet men do not and that male suicides don't matter as much as female ones, thats an expression of femininity. Like you said here:

Where did I say that? Things individual women do are not necessarily societally associated with women.

So if the behavior of a woman is toxic and that behavior is in reference to the toxic treatment of men that's toxic femininity. The behavior is not one of men, we are talking about the woman's behavior.

Do you not know what "associated" means?

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[–]FalseBuddhaSomething borrowed, something Blue1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Toxic gender norms are literally the acknowledgment of toxic trends associated with their related gender. Toxic femininity is the term for female gender norms that are toxic. This entire fucking thread is about toxic behaviors unique to femininity/women, but only in the context of gender norms. That you have conflated "women behaving toxic-ly" with "toxic aspects of feminine gender norms" is not our fault. When we say "a woman being a bitch isn't necessarily toxic femininity" we aren't saying that she isn't being a bitch or that men are responsible for her being a bitch.

You idiots use terms incorrectly to describe something completely different and then bitch about blues being hard headed when you can't accept the correct, widely accepted definition. Your ignorance directly leads to the breakdown of communication and is the reason we end up talking past each other.

[–]mgtownigga1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]FalseBuddha2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

the definitions are fucking stupid

"No, it's the children who are wrong."

Within the confines of the definitions you use, the only 'toxic femininity' that can ever be discussed are behaviors that are dictated by the patriarchy.

No one "dictates" what gender norms are toxic. It's subjective and heavily contextual. Second, society --as a whole-- reinforces and defines gender norms. Do you think women don't enforce feminine gender norms, even toxic ones, on other women? Again, I'm not entirely certain you understand what is being discussed (or at least, you're not very good at explaining what you mean). How would the patriarchy, specifically and exclusively, dictate toxic femininity? How would that fit into the definition of toxic femininity as "behaviors associated with femininity that are, or can be, toxic"?

patriarchy.

"Patriarchy" is another one of those trigger words many posters here don't seem to understand, but still rail against as if they do. "Privilege", too.

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[–]FalseBuddha1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your comparison to the alt-right seems to be nothing more than a red herring.

But to address the point I believe you're trying to make (in which case you should just make your damn point instead of asking leading questions): "feminism" isn't a cohesive ideology. There are several, nearly independent, feminism movements spanning more than a century and then there is just the general belief that the sexes deserve equal rights. Someone saying they're a "feminist" doesn't really tell you anything about their specific beliefs regarding how to accomplish equality between the sexes or even about how they're unequal. Calling someone a "feminist" is like calling someone a Christian. You know a bit about their basic beliefs, but it doesn't tell you much about the specifics or applications of those beliefs. Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, and Mormons are all Christians, but you wouldn't say all Christians believe only 144,000 people will ever go to Heaven and that blood transfusions are sinful.

[–][deleted]2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]FalseBuddha1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Did you miss the rest of my post where I clarified what I meant? "Liberals" have a general set of beliefs, but not all liberals have the same exact beliefs and, even if they do, might have different ideas for how to address or manifest those beliefs. You're attributing very specific beliefs to the entirety of feminism.

Claiming something is a red-herring when you don't have a good argument makes you like like a fool.

Your inability to succinctly and clearly make your argument without using leading questions and insults certainly isn't helping your cause. You specifically used the alt-right in an attempt to corner me into saying something irrelevant to the current conversation that you would then force me to defend instead of the actual claims I am making. Which is exactly what's happened. Whether or not these other movements are monoliths is irrelevant to the claim that feminism isn't a monolith.

[–]Raii-v2The Best Pill is Gold0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]AnarchkittyBetter dead than Red2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

Outside of islamic countries there are no patriarchal societies or cultures. No country to exposed knowledge(unsure of North Korea) gives men inherent legal or fiscal power over women.

Ah, now I see. there is a fundamental misunderstanding in what "patriarchal society" means. At least when used in this context it isn't only civilizations where men have power over women coded into the law, it includes where men have a greater degree of control and power due to historical trends, cultural biases, or systemic oppression or restriction.

And on the contrary, look at the Weinstein scandal. That's an example of men no longer having power over women (the women got Weinstein fired and gone for good).

So then your argument is that up until a few years ago our society was patriarchal because the accusers couldn't have come forward and had a good chance of being taken seriously. Right?

This is reflected in all feminist publications and writings.

And you know this because you've read them all.

Gotta love when they switch to Ad-Hominem due to lack of good arguments!

That's not an ad homonym. I'm not attacking you as a person or using a personal attack to discount or discredit your point.

You made a blanket statement about "all feminist publications and writings" and I was pointing out that it is unlikely that you know that because there are a lot of them and you probably haven't read them all. The fact that I was sarcastic doesn't make it an ad homonym, and claiming that it is doesn't do anything to justify your original assertion.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

it includes where men have a greater degree of control and power due to historical trends, cultural biases, or systemic oppression or restriction.

Well the comment is talking about societies today, so historical trends are irrelevant. e.g It wouldn't make sense to call Germany an anti-semitic or fascist society as of modern times.

Also I don't see how systematic oppression exists outside of a legal basis. Otherwise there is no system to oppress. For example, many of the cases in recent years of police officers shooting un-armed black men go unpunished because the law permits police officers to use deadly force when they feel their life is in danger. If police officers didn't get to discern personally went to use deadly force, many of these cases would result in the officers getting incarcerated or less officers using deadly force.

So then your argument is that up until a few years ago our society was patriarchal because the accusers couldn't have come forward and had a good chance of being taken seriously. Right?

I never stated that. Unless there is proof the accusers could not come forward that statement is baseless.

You made a blanket statement about "all feminist publications and writings" and I was pointing out that it is unlikely that you know that because there are a lot of them and you probably haven't read them all.

Here is the google definition of feminism

noun the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.

synonyms: the women's movement, the feminist movement, women's liberation, female emancipation, women's rights; informalwomen's lib "a longtime advocate of feminism"

Feminism is literally defined by advocacy for women's rights or the liberation of women. This is not a blanket statement it's in the definition. What are women emancipating themselves from?

[–]AnarchkittyBetter dead than Red0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (23 children) | Copy Link

Well the comment is talking about societies today, so historical trends are irrelevant.

No, you misread that. I said historical trends can be a cause for a society to be patriarchal today. If men were historically in power, then there are probably more men in positions of power today. In turn more men are elevated to positions of power because people just associate men with power because of the historical trend, and the men in power tend to promote people like themselves, which is more often other men. There has been extensive research on this in several fields of study.

Also I don't see how systematic oppression exists outside of a legal basis. Otherwise there is no system to oppress.

The system isn't just the laws written on the books, it is the traditions, biases and privileges inherent in the whole system around those laws. It is a statistical fact that black men get harsher sentences for the exact same crimes than white men. The laws as written don't say that should be so, in fact they say it shouldn't happen but it does because there is oppression inherent in the system, due largely to historical trends (like above).

Here is the google definition of feminism

Irrelevant. You didn't say "the google definition of Feminism is that it is advocacy for women's rights. You said "Feminism is founded on the belief all cultures are patriarchal and men have inherent power over women. This is reflected in all feminist publications and writings."

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

In turn more men are elevated to positions of power because people just associate men with power because of the historical trend, and the men in power tend to promote people like themselves, which is more often other men.

Again, this is a logical fallacy. It's like claiming because Nazi's ruled Germany in the past, power would rest in the hands of Nazi's today.

For a more modern example, Asian households now far outearn white house holds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

But according to your logic this shouldn't be happening since white people held the vast majority of power historically.

It is a statistical fact that black men get harsher sentences for the exact same crimes than white men.

If we are going to claim statistical facts please post a source on it.

"Feminism is founded on the belief all cultures are patriarchal and men have inherent power over women. This is reflected in all feminist publications and writings."

So you resort to pedantics when you have no good arguments left? Typical BPer.

So tell me, what would a feminist need to emancipate themselves beside the patriarchy?

There are no feminist writings in existence that do not believe initially all cultures were patriarchal and that men did not have inherent power over women.

Your just cluelessly trying to use pedantics. Won't work sorry. I will 100% stand by all feminists believe that all cultures are patriarchal historically and initially.

[–]Anarchkitty1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's like claiming because Nazi's ruled Germany in the past, power would rest in the hands of Nazi's today.

If there hadn't been a war and a multinational coalition forcing the Nazis out of power, they would still be in power (although like all political ideologies they would probably be very different almost 80 years later).

For a more modern example, Asian households now far outearn white house holds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

But according to your logic this shouldn't be happening since white people held the vast majority of power historically.

That's not what I said at all. Historical power structures influence the present power structures. Asian households white households, but how many Asian senators are there? CEOs? Governors? Median income is not a good measure of actual power within a system, although it is one of the many factors worth examining holistically. That kind of metaresearch is beyond the scope of this Reddit comment though.

It is a statistical fact that black men get harsher sentences for the exact same crimes than white men.

If we are going to claim statistical facts please post a source on it.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/black-men-sentenced-time-white-men-crime-study/story?id=51203491

(I have also edited the previous post to include this reference)

So tell me, what would a feminist need to emancipate themselves beside the patriarchy?

No idea, you're the one who brought up emancipation.

So you resort to pedantics when you have no good arguments left? Typical BPer.

You started by incorrectly accusing me of ad homonym, then changed the subject, and now you're saying I'm being pedantic, but the only part of your claim about "all feminist publications and writings" I disagreed with from the start was the "all".

There are no feminist writings in existence that do not believe initially all cultures were patriarchal and that men did not have inherent power over women.

And here you are making another absolute claim about something you have no idea on. You called me pedantic for calling you out about making an absolutist claim and then doubled down on the absolutist claim. Are you just trolling?

Your just cluelessly trying to use pedantics. Won't work sorry. I will 100% stand by all feminists believe that all cultures are patriarchal historically and initially.

Calling out absolutist claims isn't pedantic. Yet another word you keep using without knowing what it means, lol.

[–][deleted]1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If there hadn't been a war and a multinational coalition forcing the Nazis out of power, they would still be in power

I don't get your point? The people of Germany could have erected another form of Nazi leader in some more subtle way. Your basing your point off a hypothetical.

Historical power structures influence the present power structures. Asian households white households, but how many Asian senators are there? CEOs? Governors?

Well,

Asian Americans have a high level of political incorporation in terms of their actual voting population. However, as a result of this group's historically low voting rates, overall political incorporation of the general population is relatively low. Although the population of this group has increased in size by 600% in 30 years due to immigration, heavy naturalization and voter outreach efforts have provided this primarily foreign-born community with less than 1% of voters. Some notable high government officials are Bobby Jindal from Lousiana (Governor) and Elaine Chao, current secretary of transportation.

For CEO's, Asians are over-represented in tech companies relative to their population percentage nationally. The CEO of google and Microsoft are Indian.

No idea, you're the one who brought up emancipation.

No it's in the DEFINITION of feminism from GOOGLE.

. fem·i·nism ˈfeməˌnizəm/Submit noun the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes. synonyms: the women's movement, the feminist movement, women's liberation, female emancipation, women's rights;

Now if you could please tell me why would the word emancipation me in the definition of feminism that would be lovely.

And here you are making another absolute claim about something you have no idea on. You called me pedantic for calling you out about making an absolutist claim and then doubled down on the absolutist claim. Are you just trolling?

No I am 100% serious. Saying feminism does not believe in the patriarchy or all cultures are patriarchal is like saying black lives matter doesn't believe there are lots of incidents of police brutality in America.

Calling out absolutist claims isn't pedantic.

Yes it is. You have no evidence all feminist publications or ideas are NOT based off the idea men had an inherent power over women and all cultures are patriarchal. Your refuting my idea based on the idea I am used the word "all" and not the reasoning behind it.

[–]FalseBuddha2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]FalseBuddha2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Anarchkitty1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]FalseBuddha1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

All feminists believe cultures are patriarchal...

All feminists don't believe that. I'm certain that many feminists believe there were matriarchal societies/cultures. Now most modern anthropologists don't believe there have been any "unambiguously matriarchal" cultures, but I doubt most, and especially not all, feminists are anthropologists.

there is an inherent power imbalance between men and women.

I don't think the imbalance is inherent. I don't think most, and definitely not all, feminists think this. I think it's been normalized and institutionalized, but I don't think it's inherent.

If someone else asked "is feminisms goal to eleminate the patriarchy" you wouldn't say that's nonsense.

No, I would say, "A goal of some feminists is to eliminate the patriarchy". The claim that feminism's, as a whole, only goal is to eliminate the patriarchy is nonsense. Feminism, and it's different sects, has a wide range of goals among which is usually the elimination of systemic sexism, or the patriarchy.

(See all that qualifying language? When you make absolutist statements all it takes is a single instance to counter your entire claim, so if you use qualifying language it actually makes your argument stronger.)

I already linked to 2 comments somewhere else stating all cultures are patriarchal...

Some sort of Appeal to Popularity/Authority? Why should I care what those two people think? Also, two people is not "all" feminists.

there are thousands of books on this subject by feminists

Well, yeah, the patriarchy is, like, the main focus of Radical Feminism. It doesn't surprise me that they've written about it often.

[–][deleted]1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]FalseBuddha1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I never used the world only

No, but you used the singular word "goal". You said "is feminism's goal" implying that there is only one goal of feminism. If you meant "is it a goal of feminism" or "is it one of feminism's goals" then that's what you should have said. That you are not well-spoken is not a defense of your argument as you have put it forward.

If you can point me to one of those I will gladly say I am wrong.

Hi, I'm a feminist who doesn't believe cultures are necessarily patriarchal in nature and that doesn't believe there is an inherent power balance between the sexes.

Inherent doesn't mean biological. It just means in an un-checked way, what naturally came to be or resulted.

Actually it means:

in·her·ent

inˈhirənt,inˈherənt/

adjective

existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.

I do not believe the power imbalance is permanent or essential. It is not intrinsic to gender relations, it is not inherent.

[–][deleted]1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]FalseBuddha1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Anarchkitty1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Now if you could please tell me why would the word emancipation me in the definition of feminism that would be lovely.

You'll have to ask Google. I didn't put it in there and never brought it up. It's also not in the definition, it's listed as a synonym. Oh, but look at me being pedantic again, looking at the actual words being used and what they mean.

No I am 100% serious. Saying feminism does not believe in the patriarchy or all cultures are patriarchal is like saying black lives matter doesn't believe there are lots of incidents of police brutality in America.

If Black Lives Matter was as widespread as feminism and had been around as long, they would probably have a fair amount of differences of opinion too. Feminism isn't a single gestalt hive mind, there is no one thing that all feminists believe including patriarchy theory.

But sure, keep telling actual feminists what all feminists believe and what "all feminist publications and writings" say as if you actually have any basis for that claim other than the Google definition that you keep misrepresenting.

Calling out absolutist claims isn't pedantic.

Yes it is.

No it's not.

You have no evidence all feminist publications or ideas are NOT based off the idea men had an inherent power over women and all cultures are patriarchal.

You made the (ridiculous, baseless) claim, the burden of proof is on you, not me.

If you insist though, here is the counter-evidence: I have read feminist literature. Some of it doesn't have anything to do with patriarchy. There, disproved.

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Title	Is Calling Out Toxic Femininity Misogynistic?
Author	sunkindonut149
Upvotes	17
Comments	223
Date	November 21, 2017 3:59 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/7eitke/is_calling_out_toxic_femininity_misogynistic/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-calling-out-toxic-femininity-misogynistic.264781 https://theredarchive.com/post/264781

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