Regardless of the rate of sexlessness, are straight men as a whole losing motivation to be good relationship partners / High Value? (asking as a man)

reluctantly_red · 2020-04-24T00:20:31+00:00

And more importantly, will the guy be High Value?

For most women the obvious answer is no. There are not enough high value guys to go around. This is nothing new. Its the way its always been.

Mondhalm · 2020-04-24T10:00:19+00:00

Why would you want to be high value for a woman but not for your own good? The fuckmarket is second to your basic being not the other way around.

Sir_manalot · 2020-04-24T02:53:52+00:00

More and more men from all Pills of life are observing the world and saying: "why bother?"

Why bother romancing women trying to have a relationship with the very same woman who, in a different context, with someone else, has NSA sex with a lot less effort from the guy?

It's like finding out that the car you just bought ... someone else paid a fraction of what you paid; now in your mind, the price/value is a lot cheaper than what you paid in the past, regardless of what price the seller puts on the sticker.

And so we find ourself this the status quo, and it's very evident on Tider and similar apps:

women have way too many requirements
men are like: Netflix and chill?

And so the circus goes on and on.

It's the "breaking the horse's back" syndrome.

Sid_Insidious · 2020-04-24T03:21:06+00:00

For "high value men" the demand for these guys is very high. But, the bar is very high, and there are not a lot of these guys. So, most guys aren't these guys.

If Red Pill theory is to be at all believed, it says that Beta Provider guys (guys who are not first draft pick) will ultimately be her second (or third or fifteenth) choice and that's a recipie for disaster. She might miss the higher-value men she was able to bed using promiscuity as a younger lady. She might feel pressured by family, or her age, or time or what her friends are doing to get married. She might have a bad case of baby fever. She might think it's "time to settle down" after living the single life in her 30's and even into her forties.

Most guys who become aware of this raise an eyebrow. Some get angry - they don't want to be her 11th choice and don't want to get Frivorced when she's tired of playing house for a while and wants back on the Tinder market.

So yeah, for average men going the family way used to be the BEST PATH for him. Now it's a very treacherous risk-laiden task AT BEST. 50% chance of Frivorce (or outright divorce rape) and how many of the 50% are really just the walking dead who know they can't afford the divorce, or even handle it?

Women have the best of both worlds today. They can be 100% independent, but then get married and enjoy the advantages and laws that gave them huge advantages when they were NOT 100% independent. And they sit there, grinning, knowing as men we have to accept the rules of the new game because....

they have the vagina.

skystar86 · 2020-04-24T01:28:50+00:00

Marriage rates are at an all time low

Overarching_Chaos · 2020-04-24T13:50:27+00:00

Of course they are. Being in a LTR involves significant effort, commitment and risk. With social norms becoming more and more relaxed in the subject of female accountability, many women have become poor LTR candidates. And I say accountability because the issue isn't promiscuity per se. The issue isn't that women have become more sexually liberated (which is good), the issue is that women from younger generations are raised with the philosophy that they can engage in any risky/morally ambiguous/low effort behaviour they want, without any repercussions.

I was in a LTR for 4.5 years. Even though when we started dating I was pretty blue-pilled (not a simp lord obviously, but I had no idea of female nature), as the years passed I felt more and more that my ex-gf was one of the very few women that I would trust in an LTR, simply by observing the behaviour of other women. After discovering red pill concepts, it started making sense why I believed that a very large number of women are unreliable, irresponsible and overall terrible LTR candidates.

Nodoxxintoxin · 2020-04-24T15:09:55+00:00

Chicken meet egg. Lots of us are losing motivation for anything, which results in sexlessness for many men....which in turn fuels more depression and lack of motivation.

Not all is caused by feminism or tinder. Men are getting fat now even before puberty and losing testosterone. Our bodies weren’t made to lie around 24/7, eat tendies and play video games.

Mimoxs · 2020-04-24T00:45:50+00:00

Most girls can get a guy to pretend to be a boyfriend for like a week until he gets bored.

You shouldn't commit if that's all you want

But you're right, you're not heartless. You're human beings and you crave emotional connections and affection. Fucking tons of women and being afraid of commitment will one day land you very alone and sad when you're too old.

Many men are affection-starved. I'd argue many need affection but substitute it with sex. Kind a coping method.

TheBookOfSeil · 2020-04-24T02:45:42+00:00

No. Many men would be happy to be relationship partners, but there’s something about competing with women for jobs and still being expected to be providers by making as much or more than they do not only puts a lot of men out of the loop, but also rubs them the wrong way about what being a “good relationship partner” is supposed to entail. Relationships don’t seem like natural bonds between two people who try their best for the other. It seems more like an artificial business proposition where you either have to perform to the other person’s expectations or you get fired and replaced.

Suck-Less · 2020-04-24T08:21:02+00:00

Why should a guy commit to marriage when he can get sex without it, and all he has seen are men getting absolutely raped in the family courts? Why should he commit when it takes under a minute online to see a study showing between 10-30% of all mothers have committed paternity fraud. Why should he commit when he sees married men having to shut their mouths to keep from losing half of everything... when she was cheating.

I can count on one hand the number of long term marriages with American women that I think are healthy and I’m kind of sure she didn’t cheat. TBH, one hand is more like one finger.

American women are raised on a pedestal. To quote huMAN they are treated somewhere between children and royalty. If the American woman is world famous for one thing, it is this: “bitch face.”

Culture has a major impact on this, along with materialism, but the worst part is sexism in the courts. As long as women are treated as though they are always the victim needing special care, this will only get worse.

So why don’t men seek out a good relationship partner? That makes the false assumption there are good American women out there in large numbers.

yuckyuck13 · 2020-04-24T04:03:46+00:00

Humans are social creatures, we crave more than the bare minimum of indulgence. Humans crave purpose more than sexual pleasure. No matter how hard humans try to deny meaningful purpose over sexual indulgence, they're only creating their own unhappiness.

NalkaNalka · 2020-04-24T00:51:44+00:00

This is the wrong question:

Why should a man commit to a woman for sex if he can get sex from her regardless?

The real question is "Why should a man commit to a woman for sex if he can get sex from any other women regardless"

That is the key distinction that makes the "withholding sex" only work when the vast majority of women are doing the same.

One women who withholds, simply loses the catch to her competition that doesn't.

tommydagun · 2020-04-24T03:40:11+00:00

I'll just point out that more cultures in the world are polygamous than are monogamous, and more people live in polygamous cultures than monogamous. That was the old-school solution to too few HVM: women shared them.

Trads have the theory, of course, that monogamy acted as a sort of "union" for men that meant even medium-tier men had an opportunity to get married, so they'd have an incentive to better themselves, or at least be productive enough to create an economic surplus. (The "patriarchal dividend.") We ended that with the sexual revolution, soft polygamy, 80/20 (or whatever the numbers are), and so forth. So we're going back to the polygamous pattern: a few men take the lion's share of the women.

the-lone-squid · 2020-04-24T22:10:28+00:00

Honestly, even if you can find a great gal. The best there ever was!!

Still, why bother??

Things have changed. Families struggle, and single men can now live exciting lives as solos. The herbivore in Japan mostly exist because they saw their fathers become corporate slaves

Plutonic_blue · 2020-04-25T20:18:18+00:00

Yes, we are, because in todays society, a woman is told from birth she deserves it all for being a woman. A lot of women these days are now entitled and usually become heart breakers because it's never enough.

Why would guys go through all the effort, just for a girl to wake up and be like "Yeah, im done with him".

Women nowadays (Not all) seem to just leave relationships over the most minor things. "He's too boring, he wasnt around enough, he's too nice, he plays video games, he was talking to another woman just having a normal convo oMG!"

Seriously theres just no reason anymore. Also with more evidence coming out of covert female workings in relationships such as hypergamy, having backburners (Back up dudes ready just in case), and just a whole confusing list of what they want in a relationship, it's leading to guys just giving up as theres no point.

Again, not all women, just saying a majority are becoming like this. Ive had quite a few bad experiences with women and A LOT of wasted time, energy, and effort. And after my last ex, if what I was doing wasn't enough then, why bother? I know not all women are like this, but the chances of me having a romantic encounter with every woman on Earth is quite low, and if youre a younger dude like me, the dating game today is seriously screwed. Tinder is a bust (Women get 100's of matches a day, usually use the app for ego and validation only), most people in my area are taken, and the ones that arent are usually the "bad bitches" that think they're shit dont stink and are possibly the most toxic, unbearable people I've ever witnessed lmao.

Basically too much risk/very little reward. It may sound sad but I just don't have anymore energy to put into doing all the work one more damn time, just to be told Im not enough and left behind again. A lot of men are going through this. Sad times.

EDIT: What the fuck is up with all this "High value" shit? Maybe im old school but I was raised to treat people as actual people, not objects with value. Id much rather date the broke average girl thats understanding and loyal than a so called "High value" woman whose a total bitch but has a lot of money or materialistic shit

meditr · 2020-04-24T13:29:03+00:00

You know most of my relationships were with men who wanted a relationship and were never into hookup culture in the first place, though still partook in it to see what's out there, but preferred relationships. It wasn't like I had to do some black-belt arm twisting. In fact both my last relationships, prior to me, the guys couldn't get their FWBs or situationships to commit and that was why they ended.

I think this theory of women coming in from the least-effort resource extraction strategy and men coming in from the least-effort sexual extraction strategy is false as can be, I mean this exists but it's from predatory people who should be avoided. You really want someone who thinks this way? It sounds like a nightmare. Those are two people who should work on themselves rather than use others as merely a means to an end.

That being said, I think expectations are rising for women as well. A common theme I found was men expecting women to pay half, but take on the majority of the chores, to work around their work schedule but not vice-versa, I broke up with my first boyfriend for those two exact reasons, if I was pregnant or family-planning, we would both have to make some sacrifices and it would be fine, but while we're both students and unmarried it makes no sense for me to comply to this. Luckily I am now with someone who understands this, but the thing is also that it's a reciprocation that you want to take part in. Someone pays for a larger share of the rent because they make more money than you, you want to contribute back somehow. Versus someone who is selfish and you end up resenting and hating them. I don't really know where I'm going with this, thank you for letting me rant.

skystar86 · 2020-04-24T00:18:17+00:00

This is why FDS has the 90 day waiting strategy. It needs out men with this mentality.

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69odin420 · 2020-04-24T00:38:02+00:00

NarniaFox · 2020-04-24T00:52:25+00:00

I guess people commit because they want to have a family with caring and loving partner and not just sex now and then with different people. Both ways are okay, one can choose what is more important for them.

SpecialSpnk · 2020-04-24T01:45:02+00:00

I think this is a completely valid point to bring up and for me I am far less apt to give my commitment having realized I can fairly easily get sex.

2020-04-24T01:54:47+00:00

No motivation, energy can be spent on something else.

StingRayFins · 2020-04-24T04:17:08+00:00

I don't think so. I believe guys have two sides to them: the fun, don't give a fk, "yolo" mode. This is most guys at default. They will try to sleep around with and have fun with as many girls as possible. But they also have the other side which is guys still want a girl he can love and potentially start a family with. This time comes at different times depending on the guy, his circumstances, maturity level, environment, etc.

I think we have an easier time to get sex but nothing more. I believe the quality of relationship have dropped tremendously. An increase in girls that guys are willing to fuck and screw around with cause a direct DROP in girls that guys are willing to commit to and wife up.

It's nothing new, guys don't like girls who sleep around or have high body count. The neighborhood hoe? Ran through? I don't think this is a societal thing. I believe it's a biological thing.

Even though casual sex is easier than before, being a "high value" man still gets you better lays. If anything, I feel it might more lucrative now to be a high value man more than ever.

Pastelitomaracucho · 2020-04-24T05:25:53+00:00

Across the board. Yes. Read the book men on strike

SartreK · 2020-04-24T06:20:15+00:00

While there is indeed a point to be made about the fact that sexual liberation, consequences of feminism, hookup culture, changes in marriage laws that increase the risk for men, etc statistically led to a lowering of the motivation of men to be relationship minded partners… the same (though not always for the exact same reasons) goes for women.

Just as it's become enormously harder for relationship-minded women (including HVW) to find a man who is high value including in the domains related to relationship value… it's become enormously harder for men (including HVM) to find a woman who is.

I don't think there is an abundance of High Value men in any sense of the term. There is a lot of competition for them.

You are right. That being said, high value women are just as rare. And while there is less of a high value specific competition for them, there are a couple other factors that counter that advantage and they are just as hard to find in a sea full of LVW.

fakeaccount687 · 2020-04-24T15:11:13+00:00

Idk honestly I just want some titties in my face rn

BCRE8TVE · 2020-04-24T15:48:57+00:00

I'm not saying men are heartless creatures, but most people operate from a "what's the most I can get for the least amount of effort" strategy. Not just men, but I would guess men are more likely to do this.

I'd say both genders are equally likely to do this, it's just that what people look for, what they want to 'get' is different between genders.

Men may think what's the most sex they can get for the least amount of effort, whereas women think what's the best partner for a relationship they can get for the least amount of effort/risk.

One counterpoint I received recently was "any girl can still get a boyfriend if she wants one", but is this really true?

Getting a boyfriend is less of a problem than getting the right one, or keeping him.

And more importantly, will the guy be High Value?

Another problem though, what exactly is high value for him or her? One may think they are high value, but they're high value according to their own definition and not according to the other person's definition. It's also possible that what one thinks is a high value partner, and is therefore the kind of person they chase/look for, is actually not what is going to get them what they really want. This will lead to a lot of frustration as people chase someone they think will be good for what they want, only to find out it really isn't.

12112019 · 2020-04-24T16:25:00+00:00

Your intuitions seem correct to me, that is what I believe as well.

MuleFool42 · 2020-04-24T19:23:14+00:00

I think that there are a whole host of reasons for men not to commit to an LTR or marriage any more and that men of today are seeing that and making more informed decisions than ever.

There have always been bachelors - by choice, but I think that the bachelor option is becoming ever more popular than it ever has been.

WicGoingAnonymous · 2020-04-25T11:39:25+00:00

Let's be honest here... Men losing motivation is a "You can't fire me!!! I quit!!!"-scenario.

Men want sex, yes. Men want easy sex, yes. Men won't commit if they can get the sex without the commitment... disagreed but for the argument let's say it's yes.

Even then, it's still the women refusing to commit or date by large, not the men. Why? Even in the best type of relationship, a woman feels like their youth is lost by being in that relationship.

Look at this fucking sub.

If you want to date these men here, you can't dress how you want, can't eat how you want, can't get tattoos, can't have piercings, can't spend money on beauty products, can't go out, can't drink alcohol, can't do weed, can't have male friends, can't do make-up artisticly, can't wear bright lipsticks, can't do nails, can't have short hair, ...

And as much as it pains me to say it... Yeah, most of us women are focussed on our looks and we want those things.

As such, women by large have been quitting relationships slowly but steadily until it's worth it (baby time or a good guy) waaaay before MGTOW became a thing.

MGTOW is a response to try and regain power. "If you don't give us what we want, then we won't give you what you want." But motivation keeps being lost, because women aren't biting... because the deal isn't what we want until we are 30 or something.

So yeah, the relations marketplace is completely fucked up.

BoogersAndSugar · 2020-04-25T16:18:54+00:00

Average looking (and below) guys should be very wary of commitment, and are often better off just staying single, even if that means never getting sex again. Too many settlers out there, and marrying one is a big mistake.

bigredten · 2020-04-26T04:58:00+00:00

Haven't lost the motivation yet, but damn they're not making it easy.

Used to only do casual hookups, switched to doing FWB's, and now "trying" talking to one girl at a time. (Still have options should things go bad).

They all have different ups and downs, but I can tell you the hardest one for me is "one girl at a time". I'm still learning to screen people, but you really don't learn the "baggage" until 3+ months in. The baggage makes you weary of commitment, then the inability to be consistent makes it near impossible. (Consistent as in, I can't ever be too nice or fall for her, because she just loses attraction and puts in less effort).

But, I won't complain. Just gonna keep working until I figure out what works for me. The answers probably FWB's and let her bring up that she wants more.

ZlayerXZ · 2020-04-24T00:33:21+00:00

I don’t know why the f*ck will an individual men care if a women can get a boyfriend or not, if she can good for her, as long as he isn’t me.

Visserman75 · 2020-04-24T08:45:34+00:00

Modern society values feminine traits (beauty, socializing) while male traits (physical strength, leadership, teamwork) aren't worth much anymore.

The result is that is much easier to be a 'high value' woman than a 'high value' male in modern society.

Troy016 · 2020-04-24T04:56:32+00:00

Yes. Why would I want to be a relation tbh? Always have to be on my A-game? Spend hella money ? Risk my heart getting broken? There’s no good reason for a guy to have a legitimate relationship. I mean unless she’s not a thot.

akihonj · 2020-04-24T12:45:52+00:00

Most men who bother with the dating scene has arrived at the exact same conclusions

Why bother investing, I'm talking to her, she most likely thinks I'm talking to others as well and I'm assuming that she is also talking to others.

The end result being as some say she's not your girl it's just your turn.

Couple that with articles and studies which state clearly that women, especially those in their 20s are happier not being married, add in statements such as the future is female.

And I'd say you have an almost perfect storm waiting to happen, I said the same thing as I'll say now, on another discussion, I used to, before covid, go into schools to promote stem courses to kids.

Boys were mostly interested and many would approach and ask if they were right to not want a relationship other than just sex, while they study because they want to get their education, if they do that why bother with marriage in every likelihood they'll have a good career, house etc and what's the risk they'll loose that in a divorce.

Now people will naturally get pissed at what I'm saying but it must be understood then, boys are every bit as astute as girls and every bit aware of social changes and situations as girls are.

They are being fed often what they see as messages saying they don't belong, don't have a future and aren't wanted.

They see good and bad men alike go through divorce so know that it makes little difference to them how they behave the ends are the same for them.

So for them the being high or low value is only relevant to the quality if life they want for themselves, many have said to me that they'd like to be married with a family but don't see any worth in it now.

One young lad said to me in his view marriage is something girls do to break boredom, because divorce is so easy it's just an expensive party.

So here's the thing, the messaging that boys and girls are both recieving is heard in different ways that apply to each, for girls then it's strong and independent, for boys it's having no place.

As I see it the messaging has to change, but exactly how I don't know, and if the messaging does change who does it have to change for first.

Change it for boys and you'll push more away, more will see it as some form or other of brainwashing, change it for girls and again it's brainwashing but with added sexism.

Title	Regardless of the rate of sexlessness, are straight men as a whole losing motivation to be good relationship partners / High Value? (asking as a man)
Author	hellotrillions
Upvotes	21
Comments	177
Date	April 23, 2020 11:39 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/g6xmnk/regardless_of_the_rate_of_sexlessness_are/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/regardless-of-the-rate-of-sexlessness-are-straight.655017 https://theredarchive.com/post/655017

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