Feminist thoughts regarding MRAs

HotDealsInTexas · 2016-06-26T23:58:56+00:00

So it sounds like what this boils down to is: "Why doesn't the MRM like Feminism and want to get along with it?"

It's very simple: because while some individual Feminists may care about Men's Rights, the movement as a whole has done MASSIVE harm to men with things like the Duluth Model, and today continues to demonize men in the media, oppose the existence of groups focusing on men's issues unless they are under the Feminist banner (in which case they are tightly controlled and can't ever criticize Feminism, which makes them useless), and actively oppose gender equality when gender equality doesn't benefit women (e.g. NOW lobbying against default equal custody).

iainmf · 2016-06-27T00:38:10+00:00

Why aren't there discussions about the similarities between feminism and men's rights?

We have those discussions quite a lot. The general conclusion is that there are irreconcilable differences between feminism and men's rights.

The fundamental problem is ideology or world view. Even if we both want equal rights, if we can't agree on the underlying structure of society and the root of the problem, then we won't be able to agree on how to get equal rights. For example, even though everybody can largely agree that they want their country to flourish, some people think that a nations fortunes are affected by the amount of sin in the nation and punishing sinners is the best way to improve a countries fortunes. Other people think that sensible economic policy is the best approach. You can see that these two groups are not on the same wavelength and working together would be next to impossible.

Similarly, feminism has a strong theoretical ideas which the the MRM largely rejects.

Patriarchy theory, or the belief that society benefits men at the expense of women, is at the core of feminist ideology. The problem is it just doesn't match reality. While there are more men at the top of society (politicians CEOs etc), there are also more men at the bottom (homeless, suicide victims, drug addicts, prisoners etc). There are also a vast number of laws, institutions, programs, and campaigns, that benefit women. Women are doing better than men in a number of areas in the west. They are more educated, more healthy, and make up the majority of voters.

Another feminist belief is gender is a predominately social construct. This is also not true. Gender is a mix of biology and society. Gender differences exist before socialization and even in other related species (who don't have human society). The feminist idea is that men and women are largely the same and the differences we see are due to society and any difference in outcome between women and men is some kind of discrimination. They say, if men and women are the same, why are there less female politicians?

On the other hand men and women are different enough to cause differences in outcomes, then trying to correct this over-stated discrimination actually results in more discrimination, but in the other direction.

Another issue of contention between the MRM and feminism is the things feminists do. It's really hard to work with feminism when feminists have a tendency to shut down everything you try to do, label it misogyny, and campaign for preferential treatment for women.

Why would the MRM want to work with feminists under these parameters?

edit:

Feminists are all branded as "feminazis" and - well, that isn't true. Women's rights are valid.

Women's rights are valid, but you don't need to be a feminist to support women's rights. In fact I would argue that today's feminism is the worst way to support women's rights, because it infantilizes women.

deathdragon5858 · 2016-06-27T00:48:07+00:00

This sounds an awful lot like a concern trolling......

actingverystrangely · 2016-06-26T22:11:11+00:00

I think the vast majority of members of this sub-reddit are egalitarians. I'm not sure why you think that feminism has anything to do with equal rights, but most MRAs have abandoned the idea of reasoning with feminists.

Of course you may be different, but most of the people here, men and women, have experienced the myopic misandry that characterises the wilfully ignorant third wave feminist.

The challenge for you is this: if feminism is really such a positive movement for equal rights, why do most people - including most women - decline to self identify as a feminist?

If you find yourself rehearsing arguments that this is "because they don't really understand feminism", then maybe, just maybe you will see the conceit, the arrogance, the condescension of your beliefs. "I am right because my beliefs are right, while your beliefs are wrong."

I really, really care about people, and if you do too, you might wish to reflect upon the contribution that third wave feminism had made to men's issues over the last 25 years.

Here's a clue: vacuous Tumblr platitudes about gender roles will not do. So miss that out. What else?

jimmywiddle · 2016-06-27T01:25:16+00:00

I think you will find we are all pro womens rights, pro mens rights, pro equality but are anti-feminist.

Modern 3rd Wave Intersectional Feminism = cancer.

And therefore I do not support it or the vile sexist, man hating, censoring, purple haired freaks that seem to carry its flag.

"Why aren't there discussions about the similarities between feminism and men's rights?"

Because we are a lot older than you are and we have given up trying to work with a group of feminists who have such high levels of victim complex and ingrained sexism and bias that trying to take the middle road as we often do here, just results in them throwing their toys out the pram.

You want an example ? Go over to the /r/feminism sub and post a new post called "Why aren't we working with mens rights activists?"

And then come and tell us when you are banned 2 minutes later.

Krissam · 2016-06-26T22:11:36+00:00

Then, I started learning about today's forms of discrimination. That birth control is still not easily accessible to everyone.

Can you explain to me in simple terms how women having easier access to more varied methods of birth control is sign of discrimination against women? Men have 2 options and yet, we are the ones who have to leave our future in the hands of a single other indidividual should an unwanted pregnancy occur.

That rape culture exists, and has existed for a very long time.

Which perfectly explains why the top 3 most hated types criminals on earth are pedophiles followed by rapists, then people who murder women.

That most porn sites are about the degradation of women - and we are /so/ used to it that it's seen as a 'kink' and not a problem.

Citation Needed

I want abortion to be an option for everybody.

Does that include men then?

but I remember thinking early on that like - the female characters made me feel SO uncomfortable. They were only there for sex appeal and some basic entertainment.

You are not the targeted audience. Why do you think the men in Magic Mike are there?

xNOM · 2016-06-27T00:56:11+00:00

Number of times "rights" appears in this post: 3.

Number of times "responsibilities" appears in this post: 0.

Imthere · 2016-06-27T00:01:36+00:00

First off, thanks for at least asking questions. I think you'll find that this sub is prepared to accept dissenting points of view and talk about them. Unlike feminist subs. That, for me, is the short reason why I'm not a feminist.

Please go back and read the first six paragraphs of your comments again. They explain why you're shocked at bad things happening to your boyfriend.

You'd fallen into the trap most feminists fall into. A bad thing happens to me, therefore society is oppressive towards women. OK... but how do you know?

As an invented figure, let's say 4 out of 100 women get some form of cancer. OMFG, we need feminism, because women are oppressed, right? Uh... no. You have to look at all of the data. And this isn't "what about the menz". It's "how do you know you aren't lying to yourself?". In this invented example, maybe 4 out of 100 men also get cancer. In that, case, we have equality, and women aren't oppressed.

Bad things happening to women in no way require feminism. They require a a conscious decision to look at the big picture, and to treat people equally.

Later, you say:

But like ... Feminism ... -is- about equal rights. RE: suffragettes. equal work opportunities. to be portrayed in the media as more than a male fantasy. etc., etc.

No, feminism is not about equal rights. Feminism is about getting equal rights for women, where women are treated worse than men. Or where women imagine they are treated worse than men. Where women are treated better than men, feminism seeks to uphold and continue that inequality.

In short, feminists claim to be about equality. In practice, it's about female supremacy.

But you don't need to believe me. Clearly, I'm a cisgendered hate-mongering misogynist, and you're welcome to believe that. All I ask is that you go look for yourself. Find the situations where feminists fight for equality where women have it better than men. Find the situations where feminists fight for the same rights for men. Any such instances will be rare and unusual.

Now look for instances where feminists fight to keep inequality, where it's in their benefit. Look for instances where feminists fight to remove rights from men, and to have women given more / better rights than men. You'll find lots.

Early distinctions: When I was very young, I grew up feeling like I had to fight to do any of the activities boys were "allowed" to do.

That's terrible. What do you think happened to the boys in your situation? i.e. look at it from an equality perspective, not just a self-centred one.

I was told that I would always be better at English and Reading than I would be at Math / Science because I was a girl.

Those people are sexist.

My mom-mom told me that she had three choices when she was young : to be a nurse, a teacher, or a secretary - because there were no other jobs available to women at that time.

Perhaps things have gotten better in the last 30 years? Or to put it another way, maybe you don't need to be a feminist because women were oppressed 30 years ago?

My dad wouldn't let my mom drive the car because he thought it was wrong for a woman to drive. I was as good as boys were at sports, but like, it wasn't encouraged. My dad and brother loved James Bond movies, which is fine and all, but I remember thinking early on that like - the female characters made me feel SO uncomfortable. They were only there for sex appeal and some basic entertainment.

And... Daniel Craig coming out of the water wearing a tiny bathing suit isn't about sex appeal? The endless "hero" of action movies isn't sexist?

Look at the average action movie, and count the women killed versus the men. Sure, it's terrible that women wear bikinis and are there "only for sex appeal". The men are there as disposable backdrops. Most men in movies are there as scenery, or idiots that get easily killed by the "hero".

Are you're going to tell me that women wearing bikinis have it worse than those men? Or (more realistically), that you never for a moment thought about the disposability of the thousands of men you've seen killed in action movies.. They don't exist. They're not people. You don't have sympathy for their violent deaths, but you do have sympathy for those poor women flashing their T&A in bikinis.

Hmm... is that equality?

Then, I started learning about today's forms of discrimination. That birth control is still not easily accessible to everyone.

What's available to men?

she gets pregnant, the man is responsible. "If you didn't want to be responsible, you shouldn't have had sex". Note there's no similar demand of responsibility for the woman
she says she's on the pill, and gets pregnant... the man is still responsible
she fishes the condom out of the garbage and impregnates herself... the man is still responsible
she gives the guy a BJ and impregnates herself... the man is still responsible
her female roommate fishes the condom out of the garbage and impregnates herself... the man is still responsible
an adult woman commits statuatory rape on a boy... the ~~boy~~ man is still responsible

I could go on. The underlying theme is simple. Men have absolute responsibility for their sperm. Women have near-absolute choice over what to do with the sperm, and whether or not they get pregnant, and whether or not the man pays for it.

Now go and find feminists who want to give men reproductive equality to men. You'll be looking for a long time.

That women are still stoned to death because they commit adultery, or because they marry someone unapproved.

In Saudi Arabia for christs sake, not in the western world. You might as well tell me that Jews in the US are oppressed because Jews in the Arab world are treated badly.

Well.. people in shit countries are treated like shit. That means you should fight against those shit countries, not fight against Western society.

That rape culture exists, and has existed for a very long time.

How do you know? Do you get together with your friends and talk about how "of course" rape culture is everywhere, and "of course" it's bad?

Or are you talking about rape culture where self-proclaimed feminists deny that woman on man rape should even be called rape? (Hint: for them, it's not. Yay equality!)

That most days (wearing jeans and a t-shirt, even) I get eye-fucked and told I'm sexy.

As opposed to men, who get less of that, but who do get treated as disposable slaves?

When was the last time you saw the garbage man as a person, with needs and feelings? Odds are you never thought about it. He's just one more man doing a mans job. Unthanked. Unnoticed. Appreciated (if at all), only for his body, his physical attributes, what he can do with his muscles. Dying at a rate 20x that of working women.

But no, you're oppressed because men look at you and tell you you're good looking.

That most porn sites are about the degradation of women - and we are /so/ used to it that it's seen as a 'kink' and not a problem.

That's just a lie.

What irks me, though, is that I have yet to find similar sympathies on this board. Why aren't there discussions about the similarities between feminism and men's rights?

Because I (for one) don't like being told I'm similar to a bunch of people who hate me simply because I have a penis.

Feminists are all branded as "feminazis" and - well, that isn't true.

They're not all "feminazis". But a large percentage of them are. The most vocal ones are. The ones who help set public policy are.

They are unabashed female supremacists. They believe that women are better than men, and that (for example), men should be put into concentration camps. Or maybe that 90% of the male population should be killed. That "all men are rapists"

If any group outside of white supremacists says similar things, they'll be similar nationalist / racist supremacists. Except for feminists. They're not female supremacists, oh no, they're about equality.

If you want to see what feminist writing really looks like, go see /r/menkampf. From the sidebar:

In the post you're about to make, replace cis/white/hetero/male people with the Jews and if the result sounds like something that could be right out of Mein Kampf, you should probably reconsider your social justice blogging habits.

biglebowski55 · 2016-06-26T22:44:23+00:00

I am a woman, and will never call myself a feminist. I have yet to see a form of feminism--angry man-haters or friendly 'let's all get along'ers, that isn't based on the premise that women are still an oppressed minority. That simply isn't true. I have more advantages than my male counterparts. I wish it could be equal, but right now, if our culture is against anyone, it's not me.

fengpi · 2016-06-27T00:05:09+00:00

My interactions with feminists have, repeatedly over the years, demonstrated that they will never treat me fairly, regardless of whatever fine-sounding words they profess to believe.

Ahh, yes, but those were only the "Fake Feminists" weren't they? Pfft!

lasciate · 2016-06-27T00:08:27+00:00

Then, I started learning about today's forms of discrimination. That birth control is still not easily accessible to everyone. That women are still stoned to death because they commit adultery, or because they marry someone unapproved. That rape culture exists, and has existed for a very long time. That most days (wearing jeans and a t-shirt, even) I get eye-fucked and told I'm sexy. That most porn sites are about the degradation of women - and we are /so/ used to it that it's seen as a 'kink' and not a problem.

When you slot feminist issues like the ones you mention above (barring government-condoned stoning since it's an issue, but not one faced by western women) into the long list of social ills that all people face they (should) fall so far down that they are competing with stubbed toes for importance and attention. Instead, they are treated as on-par with genocide, epidemic disease, global warming, etc. They are treated as evidence that we live in a woman-hating society.

Consider also the fact that men face many of the same issues - many worse ones too - but are aggressively ignored when they complain, and you should realize that Feminism is based on the idea that women and only women should be exempt from not just suffering but any amount of inconvenience. That as long as any woman experiences any hardship and any man does not we live in an unjust society. It's an extremely self-centered viewpoint. Men are victimized because of their gender to a much greater extent than you can even fathom, but no one cares.

Feminism relies on abject selfishness and a lack of empathy to even be entertained by the mind. When you start from that position it's inevitable that you will arrive at an ideology that dehumanizes the out-group (men). It's a harmful ideology motivated by negative mental attributes.

Arby01 · 2016-06-27T05:35:57+00:00

My mom-mom told me that she had three choices when she was young : to be a nurse, a teacher, or a secretary - because there were no other jobs available to women at that time.

She lied to you. There are easily tons of women engineers, scientists, politicians and business leaders your mom's age. If you were talking about your grandmother, Margaret Thatcher was probably older than your Grandmother's age. She is not accepting responsibility for her choices. Was it harder, sure.

My dad wouldn't let my mom drive the car because he thought it was wrong for a woman to drive.

Did you observe this or were you told this? I have children older than you and this hasn't been an attitude anybody has actually held since my parent's generation and they were born in the 30's. If you observed this, your father is a very strange duck, if you were told this, you were lied to.

I want women to be able to not be seen only as objects.

Yeah, you know, if you look around, everybody is objectified. Your likely attitude towards the garbageman, for example. It would indeed be a better world if we saw each other as people, not objects.

I want women to be able to speak out without fear of being /killed/. Literally killed.

Statistically speaking, you have more ability to speak without experiencing violence than a man does. More men are killed for all the same reasons that women are killed. Pretty much across the board. There might be an exception I am unaware of.

Why aren't there discussions about the similarities between feminism and men's rights?

There are. You know, I like that you have approached this with the tone that you have. You are still buried under a ton of social conditioning that you haven't even begun to open your eyes too. Your attitude is commendable though.

Women have had to struggle. Women still struggle.

But like, I understand that men struggle too,

Yeah, but you aren't even beginning to comprehend that - let's take the vote since you mentioned it earlier. European countries started moving towards democracy in the 1700s. The "Universal Suffrage for Males" was in 1789 in France and was the outcome of the French Revolution: Encarta, "French Revolution" Reign of Terror Executed with Trial: 17,000 Executed w/o Trial: 12,000 Died in jail: "thousands" TOTAL: 40,000 Vendee rebellion: 100,000

This was the cost to men in lives for the vote in France. Which was subsequently lost and had to be retaken.

Women's suffrage - how many gave their life for this right? Well, a quick scan of online accounts lists 1 - Emily Davison and that's kinda questionable. So, let's be generous and say "10000". Which we know is not even remotely true. That's still 14:1 or worse.

Yet your attitude is "I get that men struggle too". Do you? Do you, really?

The thing is, men and women have both been oppressed. Realistically women with power and money (in common parlance, the 1%) have always been better than the 99%. They had access to education, resources, ability to rule (Elizabeth I, Victoria, Cleopatra... History is rife with examples. Are there more men? Yes, but it isn't like women weren't there too).

Ok. so, let's drop that and move into more modern society.

I think women have to struggle in ways that a lot of the users on this board simply refuse to see.

You are correct and I agree with you. Both genders are really willfully blind to the struggles of the other.

Your specific examples:

That birth control is still not easily accessible to everyone.

In most of the western world this is untrue. In poverty stricken nations and backwards countries this might be somewhat true. I don't think feminism helps get birth control or abortions though when your primary concern is finding food for the day or avoiding the gun battles going on.

That women are still stoned to death because they commit adultery, or because they marry someone unapproved.

If you are actively doing feminism is Middle Eastern and African countries, then you have something of a valid point. You are ignoring the conditions for the men in those countries. which is just as bad, perhaps in different ways though. If you are not being an activist in those places, then you are using others suffering to bring sympathy to yourself when you don't experience these things. Shame on you.

That rape culture exists, and has existed for a very long time.

Rape culture is a term that was coined by feminists in the United States in the 1970's. It was designed to show the ways in which society blamed victims of sexual assault and normalized male sexual violence.

We simply disagree. Male sexual violence has never been tolerated or seen as acceptable. Rape has always been a crime that has been severely punished and on the least amount of evidence compared to any other crime. On a related note, domestic violence was also not tolerated or seen as acceptable either. A few egregious examples does not a culture make.

That most days (wearing jeans and a t-shirt, even) I get eye-fucked and told I'm sexy.

Have you considered that you are dehumanizing the man that you are getting 'eye-fucked' by? I mean, if it was Chris Hemsworth (insert celebrity of your choice), would it be a problem?

You are completely objectifying the man by disregarding his humanity because you don't find him attractive in return. It's natural to be attracted to members of the opposite sex and both men and women look/stare/objectify the other.

The problem you are experiencing is that you are been told it's wrong when men do it. This is because you have also been told to be fearful when men do it.

That most porn sites ...

Yeah. OK. Have you considered that this might be a result of men being dehumanized for having natural sexual attraction?

I mean, yeah, the level of horrible porn is significant and disturbing. Why does it exist? You could take the view that men are horrible. Or perhaps you could take the view that men are humiliated trying to find healthy love and sex and this is the twisted result you get from that situation.

Why humiliated you ask? A recent study found that women rated 70% of men as "below average" looking. Think about that for a while. This means that women seemed to believe that 70% of men are ugly/physically unattractive. You complain about being called sexy. You could probably get a large percentage of guys to follow you around like a puppy by simply telling them they are 'sexy'. As a gender, men are largely starved of appreciation. Look around and think about that. What you complain about as horrible, many men would willingly take pliers and rip out their back teeth without anaesthetic for.

Women explicitly dump the huge majority of men into the 'undesirable' category and then shame them for having feelings. ("Don't look at me you perv!").

What do you expect to result from that? Is it 'wrong' (i prefer 'unhealthy')? Yeah, sure. Is it a reasonable response? To some degree, yes. (you need to stick with me here - the demand that exists for the fantasy is unhealthy but understandable. In many cases, I suspect without knowing for certain, that most producers of such material are well into 'wrong').

Feminists are all branded as "feminazis"

Well, ok. Emma Watson says that 'men need to get behind women'. However, men are being destroyed by the current culture and no one is getting behind them. So many guys think "WTF? F U!" - and they are right to do so.

Father's relationships with their families are destroyed, so men organize and suggest laws for parental equality. Only to be shot down and destroyed by feminist organizations that are paid millions of dollars from the government.

Most men here believe that women are 'equal', in that they have equal right to live their life and make their choices and should have as many choices as everybody else. That is pretty much the same attitude as many of the women that call themselves feminist.

However a funny thing happens between the statement that feminists make "we should all be equal and have the same opportunities" and the actual things done by feminist advocacy and organizations.

What is happening is that the people that aren't championing equality - like anti-family court reform feminists organizations - are hiding behind all the "we just want equality" people who call themselves feminist.

There is no way to separate the two groups, because when the radicals are confronted, all the 'it means equality' people just out and form a human shield.

There is no way forward except to put them all in the same basket until feminists themselves start differentiating and holding the organizations that do anti-equality activism in the name of feminism accountable.

That's before we even begin to consider the amount of propaganda that is being produced under the guise of social science that is nothing but harmful to men and was fully intended to be from the beginning. Men are under attack, and, you are seeing a not only reasonable response to that, but actually a very, very gentle response.

Ultimately, if you believe that men and women are equal in that they should have the same opportunities and choices available to them regardless of gender, then most here agree with you. That isn't what is earning the animosity. It's the actions of feminist groups that is getting animosity and rightfully so.

ThePigmanAgain · 2016-06-27T00:19:26+00:00

"That rape culture exists, and has existed for a very long time. That most days (wearing jeans and a t-shirt, even) I get eye-fucked and told I'm sexy. That most porn sites are about the degradation of women - and we are /so/ used to it that it's seen as a 'kink' and not a problem."

That's where i stopped reading. As expected, just another lying, feminist piece of turd wasting our time.

rg57 · 2016-06-26T23:58:39+00:00

Your story is straightforward, but I would encourage you to leave behind toxic feminism (read your history -- it has never been an equality movement), and work towards equality for all (as equality can only be).

I also encourage you to leave behind your prudish views of sex. Sex is not a bad thing. And the kind of sex you don't like to have is not necessarily bad. Admiring a person is not "eye-fucking". We need to work toward (far) more liberation in this area, not less.

The problems men face have some origin in old patriarchies, but generally come from feminism today. There will be no alignment between men's rights and feminism. They are necessarily opposed. To the extent there can be any gender egalitarianism movement, men's rights is compatible with that idea, but feminism is not. Feminism is based on the idea that women must be made superior to men, who are inherently evil. Further, women's issues are being dealt with. Both US political parties talk about them. Nobody, ever, talks about men's issues. That's where the urgent need is.

iainmf · 2016-06-27T01:05:20+00:00

I understand that men struggle too, and for a lot of people, that struggle is kept quiet.

I think it is important to think about how men's struggles are kept quiet or don't receive as much attention as women's struggles and apply that to how we have been taught history.

Greg_W_Allan · 2016-06-27T02:06:11+00:00

Typical blinkered feminist. Plenty to say about the trials and tribulations of women around the globe and simultaneously oblivious to the state of play for boys and men anywhere.

TBFProgrammer · 2016-06-27T04:23:48+00:00

You gish-galloped here, probably unintentionally, but it is going to take a long post to address all the things you brought up. Please try to bear with me. Also, I'm going to be speaking from a US perspective. Some things will not be entirely representative of the entire western world, and certainly not of the entire world.

I grew up feeling like

This one is easy, but it is an important litmus test. Our feelings and perceptions are not necessarily indicative of the actual nature of our world. Emotions inherently define the things we value, the kind of world we seek to build, but when applied outside of determining those values (or in times of significant desperation) they only serve to inhibit our ability to enact those values.

Please try to set them aside. If you can't, any dialogue is going to prove mostly unproductive.

I was told that I would always be better at English and Reading than I would be at Math / Science because I was a girl.

As with the preceding point, these are the perceptions of your parents and teachers. They do stem from a (relatively mild) general disparity (likely arising from a disparity in interests), but the statement pertaining to you is a confusion of the general and the specific. That said, such statements do less harm than might be imagined, dissuading someone from pursuing a given course in their life is much harder than simplistic discouragement.

Compare this to the struggle of someone who is told they have a learning disability, simply because they tend to be overactive, and whom is then placed on psychoactive drugs. It should be noted that psychoactive drugs have a discouragingly high rate of generating mental issues similar to what they are trying to treat if administered to someone who lacks the actual problem. A large number of your male peers were mistakenly diagnosed with ADHD and administered amphetamines, causing significant and direct harm to their minds.

My mom-mom told me that she had three choices when she was young : to be a nurse, a teacher, or a secretary

My mother, who is very likely to be older than yours (I'm older than you and she was in her 30's when I was born), did factory work while she was in highschool and spent some time doing sales on the side via princess-house as a young adult. One of her sisters worked as a manager for a tech company before retiring to spend more time raising her children.

The 1980s were the period that saw the highest percentage of women working with code. Your mother may have been under the perception that there were only three careers available to her, but again this was merely a perception and not reality.

My dad wouldn't let my mom drive the car because he thought it was wrong for a woman to drive.

This one is born out of your father's perceptions, unless you grew up in a non-western nation.

I was as good as boys were at sports, but like, it wasn't encouraged.

Aside from bone structure and sex organs, physical differences between male and female humans primarily appear during puberty. Prior to puberty, the sexes have roughly equal physical capacity. There is also a short period of time where most girls have hit puberty and most boys have not. During this period, girls can be expected to easily outperform boys having developed adult musculature. However, during puberty boys will receive a much more significant enhancement in this field.

Combined with the slight efficiency gains from better fat distribution and more optimal bone patterns, the adult male body has a significant natural advantage over the adult female body in terms of strength, speed and agility.

For this reason, male sports are played at a higher level than female sports and women are generally not fully competitive in male sports. There is more interest in sports played at a given level than for any level even slightly below it. As such, men and boys stand to gain much more from pursuing sports than women and girls do. It only makes sense for parents to encourage boys to pursue sports more than they encourage girls.

women had to fight to be able to vote

There are three meaningful periods to investigate. The first period, at the beginning of the vote, is the time when the vote was tied to property and not personhood. During this time, women who held sufficient property (typically widows) were not barred from voting. The base unit of society was the manor.

The next period was a fairly short one, lasting less than a single century. During this time the vote accrued to all male persons above a certain age and was generally linked to military service. The length and beginning of this period varies between countries. The base unit of society was the family.

The final period is the current period, where the vote was extended to all people. The base unit of society was the individual person.

Women's fight was one of social and political pressure, coming at little actual cost to the women involved. The expansion of the franchise to all men cost blood, coming either after insurrections or on the heels of a particularly devastating war (US Civil War/WWI).

To say women fought for the vote is to gravely insult the suffragist movement, especially in the UK where the suffragette movement opposed the expansion of the franchise beyond the wealthy.

to be able to divorce

For no fault divorce. Again we have multiple eras that must be looked at to properly understand the demolition of the (ancient) coverture doctrine. Coverture, by the way, is the closest analog to patriarchy that history records.

Coverture places the home under the domain of the wife and all external dealings as the responsibilities of the husband. As laws are external to the family, the husband bears responsibility for them and thus must be given authority to enforce them within the family. Additionally, in the Western version, the husband has authority over the economic situation.

However, the husbands authority is strictly curtailed by the law, to which the husband alone must answer. Wives actually saw more protection against corporal punishment than anyone not of royal blood in medieval England, for instance. Even the "mild reprimand" someone argued as a defense in the common law courts (for which there is no record I know of that states whether the defense was ever upheld) was ruled outright illegal as early as the mid 1600s.

Under coverture, divorce exclusively benefited the husband. A wife could leave her husband at any time. So long as they were not divorced, his responsibility for her economic well being, restricted to being at least as good as he kept himself, would remain intact. This means he had to supply his estranged wife with sufficient funds for separate lodgings, clothing and food. After a divorce, for which the husband had to show the wife was at fault, the husband was relieved of this burden. Neither had strong prospects for being remarried. The children, being the husbands responsibility, remained with the husband.

The next era saw any earnings of the wife be her sole domain, as opposed to being added to the family funds. The husband's responsibilities were not in any way altered, nor was the nature of divorce. Suffragettes were responsible for this and it generally only benefited the wealthy. Around this time estranged couples also began being formally divorced, though if the wife could show the husband was at fault she would still receive alimony.

Following the 1920s, the prospect of remarrying entered the scene alongside the tender years doctrine (which swapped custody, also a suffragette move). Child support was added to the divorce equation, but a wife still had to show that the husband was a fault to receive support after a divorce.

No fault divorce was only sought at this point, and still portions of coverture remained. For instance, a husband was still responsible for maintaining his wife and children. As a result, lenders remained unwilling to loan money to women without a male cosigning, as it was there husbands who were responsible for repaying the funds, but without the husbands signature the lender had no guarantee of seeing their money back.

One portion of coverture still remains, in the form of child support payments and in biases in enforcing payment from non-custodial parents. Men cannot get away with not paying. Women can. Men cannot unilaterally choose to abandon a child. Women can.

(continued: too long)

IronRivers · 2016-06-27T01:42:30+00:00

I want abortion to be an option for everybody.

What about a woman who wants to have an abortion, and because of laws passed by men in office, literally, men in office, she has to travel across the state of Texas and stay in a hotel for two nights which she doesn't have the resources for.

The crux of the abortion discussion, which is usually ignored, is deciding when life actually begins. If you assume life begins at birth and not before, then of course abortions should be available. Anyone who wants to restrict access must be some kind of women-controlling ignoramus.

However, not everyone believes this. There are many folks, both men and women, who believe that life begins at conception - so a voluntary abortion is infanticide. Hence laws are passed to prevent abortions, they're seen as murder. (Excluding cases such as where the mother's life is threatened by the pregnancy, which complicates the issue.) I wouldn't have a lot of sympathy if you had to travel across state lines and pay for a hotel to kill your ex-husband to get out of paying him alimony.

The problem is not that there are ignorant misogynists who blindly want to prevent women from getting healthcare. If you want to make abortions freely available, then talk to the actual point - demonstrate that life begins at birth.

mikesteane · 2016-06-27T03:11:30+00:00

I learned that women had to fight to be able to vote,

No, men had to fight to get the vote. Women were given suffrage by men, just ten years after full male suffrage was achieved in Britain. Similar in most other comparable countries. They were given this right without the concomitant duty to do national service, compulsory for all able-bodied men until 1956 in Britain.

To be able to divorce. Read "The Legal Subjection of Men" by Ernest Belfort Bax to understand how marriage laws, even when passed by all male parliaments were designed primarily to place responsibility on the backs of men. The modern representation of marriage in the Victorian era is simply revisionism.

That birth control is still not easily accessible to everyone

There are at leas 8 methods of birth control, excluding abstinence, available to women, some of which will be paid for by public health services. There is one available to men. It is never free. After conception, men have no choices, women have numerous options.

That most days (wearing jeans and a t-shirt, even) I get eye-fucked and told I'm sexy.

It's pretty easy to dress in such a way to avoid these comments.

I want women to be able to not be seen only as objects.

There are women who are high achievers and they are seen for what they have achieved. However, such women are rarely, if ever, feminists, and they understand that they have to compete on the same terms as men. It is complete rubbish to say that doors are closed to women because of discrimination; it is the other way round. In many places, women are advantaged in employment and education because of their gender.

Why aren't there discussions about the similarities between feminism and men's rights?

Because there is very little similarity. Feminism is, quite simply, a hate movement pushing for ever more responsibilities for men and ever more rights for women. And don't tell me that "not all feminists are like that" or "that's not real feminism" because all the big influences in the feminist movement have expressed extreme hatred of men.

As for your personal experiences, I don't know, but I very much doubt the veracity of your mother's statement about having (only) three choices.

erenthia · 2016-06-27T04:26:47+00:00

I'd like to point out that, despite the tone, people here are actually engaging with you. This does not happen when MRAs go into feminist spaces saying the equivalent of what you said.

If you want communication and mutual respect, you need to start by getting other feminists to tolerate our existence. We are willing to talk. We always have been. And while we have our crazies, bigots, and extremists just as Feminism does, in the femnist camp, they're in charge.

So here's the deal. I have a sister, a wife and a daughter. I care about them as people. But as long as society and in particular feminism treats me as less than human, I'm going to reserve my empathy for the people I know. I can't even imagine caring about how women are portrayed in James Bond movies when MGM is still legal everywhere in the western world. I can't imagine caring about girls not being taken seriously in sports when men aren't allowed to sit next to children on airplanes because they are assumed to be pedophiles by default. And I can't imagine caring about a woman having to take a long car ride to get an abortion when a man who isn't the father of that child can be strapped with 18 years of child support, with no recourse.

Do you see how this is totally out of balance? Feminism in the west is just a bunch of first world problems, and feminism in the 3rd world is just willful ignorance of the awful things that happen to men in the same situations.

The point is, we're all people.

No, we're not. That's the problem. That's what we are fighting for. Just the privilege of getting to be treated as goddamn human beings.

NUMBERS2357 · 2016-06-27T04:30:05+00:00

Not sure if you're still on this thread, but a few things I wanted to respond to:

What irks me, though, is that I have yet to find similar sympathies on this board. Why aren't there discussions about the similarities between feminism and men's rights? Feminists are all branded as "feminazis" and - well, that isn't true. Women's rights are valid. Women have had to struggle. Women still struggle. I think women have to struggle in ways that a lot of the users on this board simply refuse to see. But like, I understand that men struggle too, and for a lot of people, that struggle is kept quiet.

A few reasons for this:

Feminism is way, way, way more influential than MRAs, or really any organized group in opposition to feminism. I think it's natural that when criticism of feminism is verboten in many places, the one place where it can be expressed without massive pushback will really emphasize it.
You should see how feminists talk about MRAs! They generally don't do this sort of reaching out to MRAs either. It's just the nature of this sort of political disagreement. And frankly, everyone in American politics is compared to Nazis by their opponents, it's not some unique burden on feminists. People do the same to MRAs, and also Democrats and Republicans, etc.
While feminists might talk about some issues men face, others they ignore, and many they contribute to.

Related to that last point:

But I just wanted to say: I seriously, seriously care about the inequalities that men currently face as well.

I have seen many feminists say this, but who also have a very narrow preconceived notion of what inequalities men face. And when men speak up, and what they say isn't what they're "supposed" to say, those same feminists get hostile. Not saying you're like this - but many feminists are.

baserace · 2016-06-27T04:35:49+00:00

I learned that women had to fight to be able to vote

ROFL.

The exact opposite. MEN fought, and died, for the vote. Women were then handed it on a plate after a bit of foot-stamping.

UNLIKELYME · 2016-06-27T04:36:04+00:00

Feminism=an ideology that advocates for women by telling the worse-off gender to shut up.

fengpi · 2016-06-27T05:12:00+00:00

Incidentally, I have never seen any real substantiation of the claim that "rape culture is real" other than the feminist insistence that it is real. So I am supposed to believe, without thinking, a rather extraordinary claim: that society actually tenderly mollifies rapists and encourages them to roam-around, raping at will. Furthermore, police, judges, university administrators and the average college schlub are all on the same team, united in their sheer love of rape. Uh huh, yeah, okay, sure thing, whatever.

Rather conveniently, failing to unquestioningly swallow these feminist pronouncements about the existence of rape culture actually proves the existence of rape culture. In other words, it's an unfalsifiable claim which bypasses all critical thought facilities, instead aiming straight for sheer emotional outrage. Do you know who else thinks in that way? Cultists, that's who.

So if you want to be part of a cult, I suggest that you join-up with a more storied one. Like voodoo, maybe.

EricAllonde · 2016-06-27T05:58:53+00:00

Then, I started learning about today's forms of discrimination. That birth control is still not easily accessible to everyone. That women are still stoned to death because they commit adultery, or because they marry someone unapproved. That rape culture exists, and has existed for a very long time.

See, this is exactly why a lot of men are annoyed with feminism.

None of those things are true in western countries. Not one. All of your complaints are confined to developing countries, yet you still use them to justify persecuting and nagging men in the west.

If you had any courage in your convictions, any integrity behind your principles, then you'd immediately relocate to a developing country where women really are disadvantaged and where feminism can actually accomplish something positive.

[The other thing feminists often do is to use past injustices as their excuse for persecution of men in the present. Fuck off with that. If you want the rights that women have won in the past to be considered done, settled and irreversible, then the previous lack of them has to stay in the past too. You don't get to argue that, "Because women didn't get the vote until 1910 or whatever, men should have to pay X price in 2016". This utter lack of logical consistency is one of the reasons why many men have nothing but contempt for the arguments advanced by feminists.]

Feminism accomplished its stated goals - equal rights and opportunities for women - many years ago, in western countries at least. It's over and done with. Feminism is past its use-by date in the west, it's obsolete, so it's time to throw it out and replace it with something more useful and positive, like egalitarianism.

Women in western countries are the one of the most privileged groups to ever exist. Your only actual present-day complaints seem to be that:

1) When you dress up attractively and go out, men look at you; and

2) No film studio has made a series of "Janet Bond" movies for you yet.

That's a pretty weak justification for all the damage done by feminism in your name, don't you think?

Feminism serves no useful purpose in western countries in the 21st century, its impact is wholly negative. It's time to put an end to it.

Any women who want to continue to be feminists should be shipped to developing countries where they're actually needed. How does Saudi Arabia sound to you?

metal_or · 2016-06-27T06:58:54+00:00

I really appreciate the olive branch, op, and I'd like to explain why you're getting a response in the comments that's a bit more hostile than it should be.

Firstly you've mentioned many topics that you could read about elsewhere from MRAs, and many people in this sub are sick of hearing the same rhetoric over and over, especially if it appears to them as something "debunked".

Another reason reason some commenters are likely impatient is that you mention and claim to be in support of equality, however, you have viewed each of your talking points through a lens that does not see people as equals. Access to birth control, choice of career, social problems, and barbaric traditional practices don't make sense here as topics if you only look at how they affect women. If you cared about equality, you would instead be comparing how these issues affect different categories of people (in this case, men and women).

DavidByron2 · 2016-06-27T16:16:01+00:00

So the first thing is that feminism is a hate movement and by coming here and saying you want a discussion you're kind of like a member of the KKK posting on some board for black rights. So keep that in mind.

When I was very young, I grew up feeling like I had to fight to do any of the activities boys were "allowed" to do

That's a lie. In fact girls are so privileged over boys these days and since you grew up, that by the age of four, according to the research, girls are already saying that adults think they are better than boys. By about six years old the boys agree. Unless you grew up in Saudia Arabia or something you're just flat out lying. Oh I suppose I could pretend to believe you had some bizarro upbringing that was completely at odds with that of most girls and boys but I don't. Your personal experience is irrelevant anyway.

Those are all very early experiences that kind of pushed me towards women's rights

Another lie. You were pushed towards feminism because your entire society is woman-orientated and girls have great privilege including having institutional discrimination favouring them at every turn, but especially in schools.

I learned that women had to fight to be able to vote

100 years ago? And that was the "oppression" that turned you on to feminism huh? Nevermind that today it's millions of men that can't vote. Nevermind that women never "fought" for the vote but just asked for it and got it. Nevermind that men really did have to fight and die for the vote.

Then, I started learning about today's forms of discrimination

There are none. Against you that is. Plenty of it against men.

That birth control is still not easily accessible

To men? True. For women (only) it's the law that they get it.

That women are still stoned to death because they commit adultery

So are the men but you never got told that did you? In fact the men get it worse even in those far off countries you seem to keep pretending your experience is based on.

That rape culture exists

Rape culture is only tolerant of the rape of men. Feminists love men getting raped and always attack male victims. Feminism is the driving force of real rape culture.

That most days I get told I'm sexy

Most men are never appreciated ever. Must be awesome to be so privileged you can complain about your privileges.

That most porn sites are about the degradation of women

Ah an anti-sex feminist at that.

There are millions of examples

No there aren't. Another lie. You have a handful of crappy hate myths and propaganda points that are all bullshit and sexist. We've heard them all. You're a hate movement. Attacking people because of how they were born is what you people do.

I want abortion to be an option for everybody

Except any man, right?

I want women to be able to speak out without fear of being /killed/. Literally killed.

Literally bullshit. Feminism is the state propaganda on sex.

I just wanted to say: I seriously, seriously care about the inequalities that men currently face

Another lie. You listed rape as a woman's issue.

Why aren't there discussions about the similarities between feminism and men's rights?

This is such a discussion. They happen a lot. Ignorant bigots like yourself blow in here and pretend you're so righteous with your anti-male hate. We point out some facts and you run off in a huff.

The point is, we're all people

We are. But you're in a hate movement and we fight for equal rights.

secv808 · 2016-06-27T04:59:39+00:00

You are conflating feminism with women's rights. Feminism, while it has advocated to end unequal treatment, also has the baggage of a frankly twisted view of the world in which men are predisposed by nature to oppressing women, as well as the historical revisionism and "advocacy statistics" to support that world view. Women's rights is the advocacy of legal and social equality of women to men, which would include both the privileges and the responsibilities that equal treatment entails. It does not entail a demonization of men, the hiding of conflicting statistics, the harassment of those who speak on men's issues, or lobbying to implement/preserve biased legislation.

Just this year, NOW, the League of Women Voters, UniteWomen.org, and the Florida BAR lobbied successfully to block shared parenting and alimony reform law making it the second time such legislation has been scrapped even though public support was reported as 70% and both houses passed the bill with little opposition. This bill would have allowed both parents to be presumed fit parents rather than the mother by default, and changed flawed alimony rules such as permanent alimony.

SuperDanceParty · 2016-06-27T06:40:53+00:00

Men struggle too, and their struggles are kept quiet, but feminists aren't feminazis?

The Jews struggled and their struggles were kept quiet, but the Nazis aren't oppressive?

The fact is what is past is past, and past struggles of women don't amplify current struggles of women. Just like anyone. When society takes a step forward in progress, we don't continue stepping forward blindly to overcompensate. Stick to the present.

Your complaints of struggle exist only in your projections of women in media. Your struggles are embarrassingly pathetic compared to women of the past, and they're not gender specific either. Life always has struggles. As a democratic society we would like to minimize them, without obstructing others as much as possible.

Rape culture is a joke, we don't live in a rape culture, that's highly offensive to even suggest given the majority opinions on sexual assault. You only think it does, because anyone who tries to prove it false is called sexist and rape apologist. Fact is, outrageous claims require outrageous evidence, and with rape culture it's just not there. Just a bunch of conspiracies theories and bias statistics. Every point they bring up can be refuted, and their only defense is ad hominem attacks. That's how you know they're full of shit. Yet instead of letting us refute their bullshit claim in public, they brainwash women behind closed doors, and tell you we're all sexist, and release you into the wild with no logical foundation for believing in rape culture, varied beliefs on what rape culture is, and not one person who can stand up to an honest anti-feminist and make them convert or change their opinion. That's not a sign that the world is bigoted, it's a sign that the concept of rape culture is a weak one. A weak concept that can only be built in young minds with few real life experiences to contradict their perspective.

That's why your mind was blown when you found out men suffer too. Because now you're getting older, and starting to see why the narrative feminism builds is not all true.

Women are not stoned to death in the West, this happens in Islamic countries where we have negligible influence on politics. Because their politics is religion. And criticizing that is "offensive". Feminists will actually never fight for those women. A feminist politician once confronted an Islamic representative about the sexism in his country, he shrugged it off as something he doesn't have a say in and that was the end of the story. Instead of criticizing countries with laws like that, that ACTUALLY have rape cultures, we pretend we have one too. And then we see sympathetic articles like "5 myths about Sharia law" from pro-feminist media. That's called hypocrisy.

If I were you, I wouldn't call myself a feminist at all. The movement is deluded, and produces a fuck load of sexism and racism in millennials like you and I. I can't stand feminists because of their deluded world view that they protect by calling everyone bigots. A bigot is someone who refuses to acknowledge someone else's position.

When it comes to REAL issues, we find most of them lie outside the west, and within the west, things are improved on all fronts, and beginning to overstep even. Despite this, the narrative stands squarely focused on white men, despite countries with white men being the most pro-feminist in the world. As a white man, and a millennial who has nothing to do with this conspiracy about male supremacy, I can only see affirmative action laws and most feminist dribble as highly offensive and accusatory. They demand that I demonize my own identity, while everyone else is allowed to be proud of their identity. Fuck. That.

I don't need feminism to stand up for women's rights. Feminism can't even stand up for women's rights. It's manipulative of women if anything. What was once an ancient society of women being 'controlled' by men is now women being 'controlled' by feminist media, being taught to be one way cause another way is bad or 'what they want you to do'. It's all bullshit. I do what I want. Women should too.

I am not an MRA. I'd never call myself one. I do believe in equal rights, so I am an egalitarian. That's the accurate word for equality of sexes, not feminist.

Hopefully one day women wake up and realize you're all just being denied your privilege as an individual by a cult that insists you are a uniform identity, and thinks that they need to control that identity on all levels of society.

chocoboat · 2016-06-27T06:51:00+00:00

Women's rights are valid. Women have had to struggle. Women still struggle.

I completely agree. I think most of the men on this sub would agree. Both genders have their own crap to deal with, both face discrimination in certain areas and are privileged in others.

Feminists are all branded as "feminazis" and - well, that isn't true.

I agree. But when feminists are mentioned in this sub, it's usually a reference to the "do things my way or else you're a hateful evil sexist misogynist" types... which seem to be the solid majority of modern feminists these days, at least on the internet anyway.

I think the terms "feminist" and "feminism" are ruined at this point. If someone tells me they're a feminist, I have no idea if they're pro-equality or if they're anti-equality and want special treatment for women. What good is the label if it doesn't tell me anything?

Why aren't there discussions about the similarities between feminism and men's rights?

Frankly, because this subreddit is about men's issues, which get overlooked everywhere else. There are a lot of other places to discuss the inequalities that women face, so they aren't the focus of conversation much in here.

There are occasional comparisons to feminism though - the feminism of the past, when women truly were considered second class citizens and were treated as inferiors... much as men are today, in certain areas. The MRM needs to spread awareness and gain support for wiping out this inequality and for seeing men as being worth as much as women are... just like the feminists of the 50s and 60s did for women.

Equality for women is certainly very important though. The need for women's rights is especially important in certain parts of the world, where as you mentioned, women are stoned to death for being raped, and killed for speaking out. I want to see women's rights being fought for in those countries. And I find it pathetic when modern feminists instead spend their time complaining about female characters in video games, or spreading the blatant lie that women are paid less for the same work as men.

Modern feminism doesn't care about men. It wants women to be paid as much as men, despite working fewer hours. It cares more about "manspreading" than helping women in the Middle East. It teaches women to fear all men and blame all their problems in life on men.

I have a feeling you won't identify as a feminist for much longer. Try visiting an online feminist forum and discussing inequality against men. Point out that the wage gap is a lie, and that it isn't right for anyone (male or female) to be forced into parenthood against their will. Point out that FGM is rightfully illegal and seen as horrible by everyone, but male genital cutting is seen as normal and fine.

See how long before you get banned. See how many of your fellow feminists accuse you of being a woman-hating misogynist. I suspect you'll be using "egalitarian" instead of "feminist" afterwards, if you try it.

Mens-Advocate · 2016-06-27T10:23:26+00:00

That most days (wearing jeans and a t-shirt, even) I get eye-fucked and told I'm sexy.

That makes you a poor little spoilt rich kid complaining about how hard it is to be rich.

Words like eye-fucked and Objectification are weasel words attempting to disguise the more accurate words admiration and adoration, which in turn give women immense power over men. This extends to men working as wage slaves for women their entire lives, just for the woman's presence.

16sapphireguys · 2016-06-27T10:49:43+00:00

If you wish to know why the MRM doesn't form some alliance with feminism, then there are plenty of resources out there already talking about it. People like Karen Straughan, Paul Elam, Theryn Meyer etc. have all responded to the question of why they don't think the MRM isn't really compatible with feminism, and why a lot of MRMs are anti-feminist. I mean this in the friendliest way possible; you should go and do your homework on this issue and come and discuss it once you've done that.

TacticusThrowaway · 2016-06-27T13:30:58+00:00

That women are still stoned to death because they commit adultery, or because they marry someone unapproved.

Not in the West, legally. Countries that commonly do that sort of thing also tend to be crap when it comes to human rights in general. Look up Bacha bazi.

That rape culture exists, and has existed for a very long time.

Depends on what definition you use. If you're talking about "a culture where rape is normalized", again, that does not remotely describe any country in the developed world. Unless you're talking about male prison rape.

That most porn sites are about the degradation of women - and we are /so/ used to it that it's seen as a 'kink' and not a problem.

If they're about degrading women, why are the men involved often reduced to little more than a convenient penis? What about femdom, which is quite popular? I don't think a woman who likes to stuff a thick penis down her throat is necessarily 'degraded', and I'm a Christian.

I want women to be able to speak out without fear of being /killed/. Literally killed.

That's simply not a significant risk in the developed world for most women.

Feminists are all branded as "feminazis" and - well, that isn't true.

No, the term "SJW" is much more common these days. And then there are feminists like Hoff-Sommers and Paglia who are pretty well liked among people who talk about men's issues.

Women's rights are valid.

Feminism, in several areas, pushes for more advantages for women even in areas where they already have advantages over men, such as being acknowledged as victims of rape and abuse. That's not rights, not equality, that's privilege.

But like, I understand that men struggle too, and for a lot of people, that struggle is kept quiet.

Here are examples of feminists breaking the law to try and keep men and women from talking about men's issues. Good luck finding a mainstream feminist site calling them out.

What you believe matters less than what you do, and a whole lot less than what feminism in general does. Not only does it largely ignore men's issues or selectively acknowledge them (ED "toxic masculinity"), but it often actively perpetuates them (EG rape and abuse as "violence against women", the Duluth Model, predominant/primary aggressor policies).

Unless you're willing to fight against other feminists who are causing problems, you're not going to get very far.

/egalitarian

cymrich · 2016-06-27T20:15:17+00:00

so I suspect you are done with this thread as it doesn't appear you have replied to anything for almost a day.

I'd like to point out though that this discussion, while a bit heated, never would have happened in any of the feminist subs... instead the post would have been removed and the author most likely banned... because they don't like anyone challenging their narrative and breaking up their echo chamber...

bufedad · 2016-06-28T13:55:54+00:00

I'm going to be honest. According to the dictionary definition, I'm a feminist. In fact, most people here ARE dictionary definition feminists. The problem is that the feminist movement as a whole doesn't want equality. They don't want to deal with the issues men have.

For instance, NOW has been fighting against shared custody as the default in divorce cases for decades.

NOW (purportedly the largest feminist organization in the US) is actively fighting against Men's Rights when women have to sacrifice their privileges.

Women have privileges and disadvantages, just like men.

Then, I started learning about today's forms of discrimination. That birth control is still not easily accessible to everyone.

Not having access to birth control isn't a form of discrimination. It's an unfortunate issue, and should be addressed, but this isn't discrimination.

That women are still stoned to death because they commit adultery, or because they marry someone unapproved.

And men have acid thrown in their face for turning down women's sexual advances.

That rape culture exists, and has existed for a very long time.

Rape culture exists? Men are convicted on the mere accusation of rape.

Women, on the other hand, can rape with impunity with almost no repercussions.

Heck, one woman molested her own child for enough money for a laptop, and her sentence? 3 months probation.

That most days (wearing jeans and a t-shirt, even) I get eye-fucked and told I'm sexy.

How is that discrimination? Are you telling me that there are no men that you eye fuck? Really? Because if you say that, you are lying (or a lesbian... which is possible, and not a problem).

That most porn sites are about the degradation of women - and we are /so/ used to it that it's seen as a 'kink' and not a problem.

Since when is sex degrading? Have you looked at most porn sites? They have a mix of things from sensual love making to domination of men by women, women by men, women by women, and men by men.

I felt blind for not considering the possibility, for all men, prior to hearing about his experience.

Welcome to an actual rape culture. We pretend it doesn't happen. We pretend it can't happen, that the victims can't be raped.

Why aren't there discussions about the similarities between feminism and men's rights?

There are, fairly often.

Feminists are all branded as "feminazis" and - well, that isn't true.

No, all feminists are not branded as "feminazis". However, feminists who truly want equality are branded as anti-feminists by the feminist movement. Some of our most respected leaders (if anyone could be called a leader in the MRM) are women who describe themselves as feminists.

Women's rights are valid.

No one has said otherwise. However, we disagree that access to birth control is a "right", or that people not looking at you is a "right".

Women have had to struggle.

Yes. Everyone struggles.

Women still struggle.

Yes. Everyone struggles.

I think women have to struggle in ways that a lot of the users on this board simply refuse to see.

In what way?

DaNiceguy · 2016-06-27T06:37:13+00:00

I get eye-fucked and told I'm sexy

Don't flatter yourself honey. Pics or it didn't happen.

Not to mention, how dare those nasty men not avert their eyes in the presence of royalty.

Herpinator1992 · 2016-06-26T22:58:45+00:00

Hi! Welcome to the sub. You might get a bit of vitriol here but I like to think this is a good place for open discussion.

MRM largely started as a reaction to the growing popularity of feminism. Its fantastic that people are standing up for girls and that women have immeasurably improved their social status over the years.

However these criticisms of how society treated women quickly made some of us think about how often men get the short end of the stick. Why is mutilating infant male's genitals commonplace but seen as horrific when done to girls? Why do we have to sign up for the draft and die for our country when women don't? Why does prostate cancer, which kills more men than breast cancer kills women, receive very little public attention? Why does a mother who can't support her children get free food and housing, but a man who can't is thrown in prison and deemed a "deadbeat"?

A big topic of this sub is male disposability. Male suffering is next to invisible and isn't really addressed by feminism. In fact, some of us feel that feminism demonizes men and paints us as the focal point of all of society's issues. Which is where you'll find the feminism hate stemming from.

I personally think guys and girls both have their own unique issues to work through. Girls definitely have it shitty in some areas, like abortion. But im gonna cover my own gender first.

MenandBoysareGood · 2016-06-27T00:42:16+00:00

I consider myself a "feminist" as far as the dictionary definition goes. In general I get along with most feminists. My beef is specifically with regards to specific feminist policies that specifically are aimed to hurt men, like: a) Duluth Model of Domestic violence that ignores male victims of DV and in fact pushes the false idea that only men can be perpetrators and women can be victims b) NOW's continued focus to harm men's relationships with their children c) Countless campaigns aimed to cast all men as rapists, wife-beaters, etc. And no its not right to say that many men aren't rapists in fact it's MOST MEN aren't rapists.

And as far as arguing that feminism "helps men too". I can say something about that but I just read an incredible comment by a guy named Big John. I don't agree too much of what he says in the beginning but for the sake of fairness I left his comment intact:

I’m someone who advocates for men’s rights. I also don’t call myself an anti-feminist and in fact I like hanging out at the r/askfeminists subreddit. Most probably 80-90% of the time I find that they make fair arguments. But I still do have a problem with feminism. For one, I don’t believe it is an adequate vehicle to address men’s rights/issues. Feminism rightfully makes the assertion that it is addressing men’s rights by tackling the same root causes that also affect women’s issues. They purport that if they are capable of eliminating the “patriarchy” then in the end men will also benefit. I have no reason to doubt this, however…. There are multiple routes to achieving equality. Feminism may be one way but it definitely isn’t the most efficient way – as far as dealing with men’s issues. If feminists were serious about men’s issues they would do some radical things. They would have a “She for He” campaign. And it would NOT be a campaign to help men realize that they need to accept responsibility for domestic violence against women, or to stand up to say something to stopping campus rape. No, it would be something that aims to bring recognition to the disparity in criminal sentencing, that helps bring recognition to societal acceptance of male disposability, that helps bring recognition to the reality of male victims of domestic violence (without attempting to diminish the magnitude of the issue by stating it’s “still women that are most likely to be victims. And if you sneer at the idea of a “She for he” campaign then you are essentially validating my point that feminism isn’t an ideal vehicle to addressing men’s issues. Feminism may be a way to achieving equality for men and addressing their issues but in reality their methodology really comes down to “We’ll address issues that affect women and girls” and by doing so we’ll dismantle the patriarchy and that will help men and boys. I’m sorry but that’s not really an acceptable strategy to help men and boys. When my wife put me in the hospital several years ago because she was very abusive. No one reached out to address the fact that I was a victim of domestic violence. Despite the fact that I had told the medical staff what was happening….the closest thing I got was the attending physician told me I should get out of the relationship. As a construction worker who stands over 6 feet and is muscular all over – how could anyone take my side over my wife’s (who weighed some 120 pounds?? My point is I’m not the only man going through this. There are many – many men – who are undergoing the same thing. Yet, it continues to get very little attention in the media. What does happen when feminists take on challenges faced by men and boys? Well think of Christina Hoff Sommers. Here is an amazing person who is a feminists but has been greatly shunned by the feminists community only because she dared pull the microscope away from the xx chromosome and point it in the directly of boys. How does the treatment of Christina Hoff Sommers validate that feminism is for helping men?? And before you cast an evil light on men’s rights organizations I truly believe I would not be here today if it were not for a men’s rights website. On a dark cold night in November I sat in my basement apartment holding a syringe filled with air. I was going to inject it into my arm. I wanted to make sure I did it right and looked up Suicide…and I came to a men’s rights site (that ironically had been listed as a “hate organization” by the SPLC. For the first time the articles (there were more than one on the subject) invalidated my beliefs that no one cared about me – especially because I was a man. For all its worth men’s rights advocates saved my life that night.

Vanriel · 2016-06-27T07:27:41+00:00

Sure, there are areas in the world that women have it worse off than men. We admit that, however what most feminists do not admit is that there are problems and issues that affect men. i.e. Shorter lifespans, joint custody, unequal prison sentences for the same crime when compared to women, suicide rates are significantly higher in men than women etc. Mention any of these to a feminist and they will blurt out about the "wage gap" which has been proven to be a whole bunch of crap, or the "rape culture" which is also a bunch of rubbish, and then quote the "1 in 5" statistic to you which is also a bunch of rubbish as well.

Occasionally you get someone who is willing to listen and discuss these points, but the minute you start bringing up the concept of men being discriminated against (which is OKAY /s) or men being the victim the majority will shut down.

cymrich · 2016-06-27T08:33:13+00:00

you want women to be seen as more than just objects... yet most women are perfectly ok with objectifying men

you want abortion to be an option for everyone? so you are ok with men having to option of financial abortion when the mother wants to have the child and the father doesn't?

you want women to not have to be afraid of being killed... yet men are far more likely to be killed in pretty much every part of the world and pretty much any circumstance with the exception of childbirth for obvious reasons.

you assert that rape culture exists... where are you claiming it exists? because it definitely does not exist in the western world.

also your porn comment... maybe you should try talking to the female porn stars about your feelings on that because most of them definitely would not agree with your views.

ReallyBigMomma · 2016-06-27T08:43:25+00:00

Inb4:

Address racial and lgbt intersections here guys. Y'all lack this a lot and can definitely benefit from looking at different issues through a more nuanced lens rather than conforming to the same narratives of men and women. Kek

Mens-Advocate · 2016-06-27T10:18:04+00:00

about feminism / MRA in the hopes that we can all come to a mutual understanding & respect if we communicate.

Not possible. Society has f-d men on behalf of women for a long time and will continue to do so. Both men and women and particularly feminists want it that way.

TheRavenousRabbit · 2016-06-27T10:31:27+00:00

Part 1; Continued in a follow up reply to this post.

"Okay. I'm a feminist, 23f, and I wanted to have a discussion with anyone willing about feminism / MRA in the hopes that we can all come to a mutual understanding & respect if we communicate."

MRA's have been trying to have a calm and open dialogue with feminists for decades now. The person who came up with the first battered persons shelter tried to help men and was threatened out of her home country due to that fact. This problem is mainly as a result of feminist mistakes. While I'm not accusing you specifically, your movement has a history of silencing and shutting down people who support the rights of men, without exclusively putting women in the forefront.

"Early distinctions: When I was very young, I grew up feeling like I had to fight to do any of the activities boys were "allowed" to do. I was told that I would always be better at English and Reading than I would be at Math / Science because I was a girl."

I was told by my female teachers and my mother that I would be better at math and science than I was at language and writing. Surprise surprise, I'm generally more apt at writing and language than I am at other subjects. (Excluding biology.)

My assertion here is that: Every single experience has an opposite side which men go through.

"My mom-mom told me that she had three choices when she was young : to be a nurse, a teacher, or a secretary - because there were no other jobs available to women at that time."

I wasn't told anything. In fact, the assertion was quite silent and oppressive. It was "Be out at 18, no matter what" and that was it.

"My dad wouldn't let my mom drive the car because he thought it was wrong for a woman to drive."

I didn't let my sister carry groceries when she was pregnant. I didn't let her do heavy lifting. I don't allow my mother to carry heavy things either. I do this out of my own strength being 4x more capable than that of my female family. I do not know your fathers reasons, however, I always doubt evil intentions when they're applied onto someone else. Especially without a detailed explanation.

"I was as good as boys were at sports, but like, it wasn't encouraged."

I was better than all my peers at everything I did. I'm not joking here: Except sports. Funny thing is, I was only encouraged to play sports. The rest? It was assumed of me. When I didn't reach the high expectations I was harshly punished.

"My dad and brother loved James Bond movies, which is fine and all, but I remember thinking early on that like - the female characters made me feel SO uncomfortable."

They also make me uncomfortable. So does James Bond. They're both straight male power fantasies. I'm pretty sure you'd be just as disturbed by my fantasies, and I would be just as disturbed by your fantasies. These are, in general, harmless. Fantasies are just that, fantasies. Just like James Bond doesn't represent every single man, the female counterparts in those movies don't either. James Bond is the perfect man. He's emotionless, with the perfect body (For whatever era he's in.) who's always dominant in every single situation. I'll tell you this: 95% of men are submissive.

"Those are all very early experiences that kind of pushed me towards women's rights as I became older."

That is very understandable. You saw a double standard in the expectations of women and men, along with how they're represented. I on the other hand was pushed towards the MRM due to the obvious lack of rights in certain areas. I became an MRA at around 17, with years of thought on the subject.

"I learned that women had to fight to be able to vote, to be able to divorce,"

The millions of men who died during WW1 and WW2 fought for their right to vote more than all women combined. This is a plain fact. Men also fought for the right to divorce. Men did not have the right to do so before women got the right. However, we're still culpable for the lifestyles of our wives even after we've divorced them. The traditional expectations on men are still lagging behind in some areas, just like how it's lagging behind for women in some areas.

"to be able to get a job they WANTED, to be able to get an education, to be able to play sports, pretty much to be able to do anything besides being a housewife."

I'm still fighting for the right of having the right of baby boys not being mutilated at an early age, even in western countries. While I understand the plight here, I also understand the historical context in which women were forced into certain roles. With the lack of responsibility, they also got a lack of rights. This means that, while a woman only had the capacity of becoming a nurse, or a housewife, she was not even responsible for the well being of her own children until very recently. Until very recently, a man would be punished for the crimes of her wife. This is not black and white. It's very gray.

"There was always somebody telling women that they could only do certain things. Again, history book stuff, but like, that /irked/ me yo."

History lessons in school, unless you're in university, tend to have a corridor view. For example, did you know that two of the most successful naval commanders in ancient history were both women? One, a chinese pirate who commanded hundreds of ships? Another one, who destroyed a massive hellenic fleet during a battle, who earned her right next the men who assumed her to be weak. It's surprising though that there are no history books detailing the accomplishments of men who raised children as a career, at least not to my knowledge.

"Then, I started learning about today's forms of discrimination. That birth control is still not easily accessible to everyone."

This is a real, defined women's rights issue and I completely agree with you that it should not be hidden behind walls.

"That women are still stoned to death because they commit adultery, or because they marry someone unapproved."

The same thing happens to men. I do not know the numbers, however, we cannot assert that this is a plain women's rights issue.

"That rape culture exists, and has existed for a very long time."

During the 800's Sweden, there were laws in certain fiefs that forbid the men to rape their female serfs/thralls. Similar laws can be traced even further back and have stayed a staple law in many countries. To assert that rape has been welcomed and even encouraged is fallacious.

"That most days (wearing jeans and a t-shirt, even) I get eye-fucked and told I'm sexy."

Most men go through their entire lives without feeling sexually attractive to the opposite sex. You want what you don't have, I guess. I'd love if I was constantly "eye-fucked" for merely wearing casual attire. That would give me power of others. Value I could use to my benefit.

"That most porn sites are about the degradation of women - and we are /so/ used to it that it's seen as a 'kink' and not a problem."

I do not watch that kind of porn as it's not to my interest. (Gay.) So I have no arguments have or insights.

"All of those quick examples I listed are valid reasons for wanting societal change."

They definitely are.

"I have always felt very strongly about them and I always will. I want women to be able to not be seen only as objects."

Technically, everyone is an object. However, I'd flip the coin and say that I don't want men to only be seen as verbs.

Santaball · 2016-06-27T12:03:29+00:00

I actually have a question for you. Why do women/feminists think men hate women. Hatred to me is what whites had for slaves, Nazi's for Jews. Women from my knowledge never had that kind of oppression. So how are we in the "age of misogyny"?

JestyerAverageJoe · 2016-06-27T12:27:14+00:00

Then, I started learning about today's forms of discrimination. That birth control is still not easily accessible to everyone.

Did you ever notice that men have no real birth control, and that insurance doesn't subsidize condoms?

That women are still stoned to death because they commit adultery, or because they marry someone unapproved.

This is actual discrimination; it doesn't happen in the west.

That rape culture exists, and has existed for a very long time.

Prove it. What do you even mean? You know RAINN says that rape culture does not exist and it is not a helpful concept.

That most days (wearing jeans and a t-shirt, even) I get eye-fucked and told I'm sexy.

Oh my god, other people look at you sexually! What ever will we do!? This is what a healthy species looks like. They want to reproduce. And you eye fuck other people as well. Get over yourself.

That most porn sites are about the degradation of women - and we are /so/ used to it that it's seen as a 'kink' and not a problem.

Prove it. Prove that what someone else finds sexy is "wrong" objectively. Tell me how the women who choose to act in those scenes are free and in control of their own bodies and able to make their own choices, except when you disagree apparently.

There are millions of examples and I'm not going to go through all of them.

Try harder.

Mentioned_Videos · 2016-06-27T13:49:46+00:00

Videos in this thread: Watch Playlist ▶

VIDEO	COMMENT
Message To Feminists Challenge	12 - Why aren't there discussions about the similarities between feminism and men's rights? We have those discussions quite a lot. The general conclusion is that there are irreconcilable differences between feminism and men's rights. The fundamental p...
Warren Farrell protest at University of Toronto - Full version	2 - to be able to get a job they WANTED One of the side effects of coverture was that men had far greater economic responsibilities that women lacked. As such, women could be hired for much less pay. At first this was not an issue, as a woman's pay we...
(1) mras and feminists arguing at u of t mra event (2) Protester Pulls Fire Alarm At UofT MRA Meeting	1 - That women are still stoned to death because they commit adultery, or because they marry someone unapproved. Not in the West, legally. Countries that commonly do that sort of thing also tend to be crap when it comes to human rights in general. Loo...
Domestic Violence Video Against Men Abuse advert Mankind Woman attacking man in street	1 - The UK's laws say that rape has to be committed by penetrating someone with a penis. Everything else is a lesser offense. And then there's the policies that assume a woman who hits her male SO was just defending herself. And the fact that women slap...
[NSFW] Difference Between: Male & Female Circumcision	0 - Uh oh. Circumcision is brought up. It's important before you get to responding to any of these circumcision comments to read this article and watch this video. This will save you A LOT of time:

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Bla34112 · 2016-06-27T18:59:02+00:00

Let me start by thanking you for doing this. You are cool, and awesome, and the saving grace of this god forsaken species, there isn't nearly enough actual exchange of ideas happening.

I will only be addressing a small segment of what you wrote, because... reasons.

Feminists are all branded as "feminazis"

And have you ever looked at how MRAs are commonly treated by feminists? I mean.. just google "Mens Rights" and see what lovely things feminists are writing about us.

Check out what happens at this Warren Farrell event per example. Warren Farrell is one of the most egalitarian, kindhearted people you'll see, and yet this is how people who go to their events were treated. And mind you, it's not just this one cunt yelling insults... this was the general treatment we got... this mirrors what it was like engaging with feminists on the internet.

People are bitter.

Understand that people have a good reason to be bitter.

What irks me, though, is that I have yet to find similar sympathies on this board. Why aren't there discussions about the similarities between feminism and men's rights?...

That whole paragraph you talk about why we are so combative towards feminism, why we can't just acknowledge women's struggle, etc.

I think I can shed some light here.

This is an Ideological war. We are not denying (not really) that advocacy on behalf of women is probably needed in many areas, what we are denying is the overarching narrative behind feminist advocacy of it.

Feminists assert that men are currently or have been oppressing women, that men are the problem, that men are universally privileged, that men are to blame for the way the world works. Feminist assert that women are pretty much always innocent, that women had nothing to do with the way our society is currently structured, that women do not benefit from the way our society is structured.

Are those not some of the assumptions you hold as well?

Well, we challenge all of that. I don't want to get into all that right now, but I hope this makes clear why "Feminism"- the way feminism currently is- can never cooperate with the MRM.

Even if women's rights are perfectly valid

If you're interested, you should really check out Girlwriteswhat. I know her vids are long, but if you're interested in what the MRM is about she is a must. And if she actually captures your attention she's like crack and heroine and GameofThrones combined :P

MotherFuckin-Oedipus · 2016-06-28T02:07:59+00:00

Why aren't there discussions about the similarities between feminism and men's rights?

Men's Rights and Feminism, on a theoretical level, are two sides of the same coin. Both movements make claims they are after equal rights for both sexes. It makes sense to have two (or more) parties after the same end goal, after all - a men's rights group should focus on inequalities men face and a women's rights group should focus on inequalities women face. The problem with the current movements is actually somewhat ironic; we are rarely heard because modern feminism actively and easily overwhelms and silences us.

We typically don't get along with feminists because one or more of the following is true of the person we're interacting with:

We're told that feminism is an umbrella term for equal rights, so we should all call ourselves feminists and be done with it. When's the last time a major feminist group supported male domestic violence victims? Circumcision? Men's health issues? Paternal rights? When someone dismisses the MRM as unnecessary, they're saying at the same time that our voices don't matter at all, and that's hurtful.
We can't possibly have a valid opinion on anything even tangentially related to women because we're men. This is especially true if we're straight and white. Birth control and unwanted pregnancies are pretty much taboo for us.
We're assumed to be misogynistic assholes from the start, and it makes any conversation an uphill battle. The media loves to portray the MRM in a negative light, using legitimately misogynistic communities like PUA / TRP as examples of our movement. I'm sure there are some self-identified MRM members there, of course, but they're not as progressive as we are here. Someone assuming we're unintelligent assholes incapable of reason will render any discussion fruitless.
Our discussion partner assumes the role of victim in every situation, even if they personally have no connection or experience in the matter. Any criticism on a squeaky wheel like Anita Sarkeesian is criticism on them.
They're just plain stubborn or militant. If we try to enlighten someone with fun facts about the Mattress Girl situation, they may immediately jump to circlejerk arguments about campus rape, and not actually listen to what we're saying.
The argument presented to us is either flat-out misinformed or is attached to dubious data. The wage gap is a particularly volatile subject on this one.
Our partner is looking for an excuse to call out discrimination when there is none, or at least, not enough evidence to conclude discrimination was present.
One of the two of us immediately assumes the other is an adversary (MRM members are guilty of this as well) and not an ally.

I want to reiterate #1. Especially when many of us have joined MRM for very personal reasons, it can cut much deeper than you'd think to say "why not just be a feminist?". Feminism doesn't address the issue that brought us here in much the same way no political party platform does everything you, as an individual, want it to do.

I think you'll find that most of us here end up arguing for the same rights but with different angles and different language. We can all agree that campus kangaroo courts need to disappear. We can all agree that birth control and solutions to unwanted pregnancies need to be easily accessible. We can all agree that the job market shouldn't be as gendered as it is. We may differ in the details, but we ultimately want the same outcome.

I think women have to struggle in ways that a lot of the users on this board simply refuse to see.

Adanu0 · 2016-06-28T05:11:39+00:00

Probably went back to her echo chambers. Here's hoping she digests some of the information.

bufedad · 2016-06-28T14:01:30+00:00

I sent a post in response, but I wanted a more succinct one for this.

If you are truly interested in equal rights (and not just trolling this sub as so many others have before, and will again after), then thank you.

Seriously, even if we disagree on some things, if we are both working for equal rights, then we will benefit from each other working towards equality.

bufedad · 2016-06-30T13:10:29+00:00

I'm actually very disappointed that there was no response from this...

bufedad · 2016-06-30T13:25:36+00:00

There's two things I've noticed about your beliefs.

1) You believe that because the people are in charge, that men are in charge. Just because the king is male doesn't mean that the male peasant's life is any better than the female peasant's life.

2) You think that because men had more rights than women that they had it "better".

Male miners

Male child working in minds starting at about 6 years old

Any thoughts. Anything

Twm273ss · 2016-07-01T13:01:35+00:00

I highly doubt you were 'as good at boy's were at sports' and it's extremely big headed of you to think you are being eye fucked by everyone.

2016-07-27T01:50:53+00:00

Can one single poster here can name just one thing the MRM has done to improve conditions for men?

Crickets....?

Fanny__bandit · 2016-06-27T06:02:25+00:00

Fuck off, feminist trash.

Title	Feminist thoughts regarding MRAs
Author	actualrealfeminist
Upvotes	22
Comments	245
Date	June 26, 2016 9:49 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4pzwn8/feminist_thoughts_regarding_mras/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminist-thoughts-regarding-mras.946597 https://theredarchive.com/post/946597

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