I'm really uncomfortable with posts like this. How is this helping anyone? This isn't empowering men. It's convincing them that they are exclusively the problem.

a-man-from-earth · 2021-08-26T23:21:00+00:00

Wow. That's terrible. That guy is one huge sexist. And shamelessly defending the highly problematic and sexist Duluth Model.

Edit: Why did they even do this AMA? It's not like they didn't know what his views were...

Edit 2: grammar sux

ParanoidAgnostic · 2021-08-26T22:08:23+00:00

Ugh. He asserts that men who claim to be abused are really just abusers

Fortunately, that was too much even for MensLib

nebthefool · 2021-08-27T00:13:30+00:00

Wow. That dude dodged a lot of questions, especially about the Duluth model.

Considering he seems incapable of acknowledging male victims if domestic violence it doesn't surprise me.

At least menslib didn't exactly respond favourably alot of his statements.

steamedhamjob · 2021-08-26T21:45:24+00:00

There are far more men who don't abuse their partners and when all they see on men's "support" subs is that we need to end violence perpetrated by males, it reinforces the idea that they don't deserve help, only scorn.

DistrictAccurate · 2021-08-27T00:17:09+00:00

What on earth were those answers.

So when men are violent, they lie about the abusive behaviours of their wives, yet when talking about female on male dv, it being in the context of things like lying etc. (coercion, gaslighting) is claimed to be important in differentiating their violence from that of men.

In some cases, women may be perpetrating as much or more physical violence as their partners, but their partners may be committing other types of abuse that are not always assessed, such as sexual abuse or coercive control. We recommend that service providers assess not just physical violence but all types of abuse that the woman has perpetrated and that her partner may have perpetrated against her. Such an assessment may reveal, for example, that a woman’s physical violence is in response to her partner’s attempts to coercively control her. In this case, interventions to promote behavioral change in both partners would be necessary for the abuse to stop. (Link to the paper at the bottom of the comment.)

So whether or not these claims are valid depends on the victims gender, apparently.

Same goes for the interpretation. Funny enough, some have managed to categorize "having your gf take up the phone when it's a girl calling you" as emotional abuse and the subsequent assault as retribution for being emotionally hurt instead of control...

Oh wait, that was a paper trying desperately to somehow make violence against men sound deserved or justified... even though we nowadays know that a lot of the language and methodology used in these papers (and unfortunately often to this day) was/is completely incompatible with men and their needs when opening up about their experiences anyway.

Retribution

I got a very jealous violent streak . . . if I’m in love with [somebody] and they do something like . . . bring another girl around me or he tell me to pick up his cell phone knowing it’s a girl, I’m gonna react. I might just throw something at him, you know, I don’t know what I might do.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2968709/

Jakeybaby125 · 2021-08-26T22:42:22+00:00

Holy fuck that guy was a sexist idiot. He states in one answer to say that male abuse of women and apparently the MRM blaming the women for it (which we all know is bs) is victim-blaming but then proceeds to victim-blame male victims of domestic abuse. What a dick! Hey, u/chuckderry, why not do an AMA here? See how your ideas hold up to proper scrutiny

AnySubstance1610 · 2021-08-26T22:09:54+00:00

At least there are some people calling him out. What an idiot

mcmur · 2021-08-27T03:11:42+00:00

Imagine having this much of an outdated sense of domestic violence.

Going back to 80's study after study has shown that domestic violence is empirically not just a male-on-female issue and the rates of domestic violence are surprisingly close when it comes to the gender of the perpetrator.

This guy is just so into his identity as some sort of "savior of women". Like dude get a hobby.

Oncefa2 · 2021-08-26T22:21:03+00:00

This is the approach that anti-lgbt Christians take with their conversion tactics.

You'll always find a few people here or there who claim to be "cured" by your tactics, thus proving that being gay is a problem, and that other Christians need to give you money to help fix that problem (which is probably the main motivator of these people: 💰💰💰).

The fact that most of these men were abuse victims themselves is likely never addressed in these programs. Most abuse is bidirectional, and most unilateral abuse is female-on-male, not the other way around.

What usually happens in literally 70% of cases is couples just don't know how to stop. A disagreement turns into an argument, which turns into yelling, which turns into yelling in your face, which turns into pushing him/her out of your face, which turns into a harder push, until someone finally breaks down and starts crying or gets injured. Therapy strategies that focus on breaking this cycle before it escalates are extremely effective at preventing violence and increasing communication between couples.

Instead these people treat men as the only perpetrators in a relationship where the woman is assumed to be completely innocent, and never physically or emotionally abusive. Which is counterproductive, unscientific, and is frankly unethical.

These theories and methods are a vestige of third wave radical feminism, and it's about time we started calling them out and demanding better.

Deadlocked02 · 2021-08-26T22:54:19+00:00

Truly disgusting. I’m not even a DV victim and even I am beyond words, just sitting here astonished, angry. Imagine how many men this creature has gaslighted. Imagine how many people he sold his filthy ideology to. He says he worked with over 2000 men who allegedly abused their partners. I wonder how many of these men were actually the abuse victims (or were in a mutually abusive relationship) and tried to tell him their side, only to be dismissed and told that they were the actual abusers. He also says he provides training, so you can have an idea of the quality of the “professionals” in the field. I truly hope one day people can look at monsters such as this one and call them for what they truly are. And since the mods closed the thread, I wonder if they did that because they are complicit or because the victim blaming was too heavy even for the sub. In any case, they opened the doors to the likes of him, so I’ll be saving the thread for future reference when people start bashing this sub or mensrights and saying that menslib is a better option.

YesAmAThrowaway · 2021-08-27T01:03:59+00:00

I mean a support structure for perpetrators to explore why and why they shouldn't is actually a pretty good concept, but it portrays the whole issue from just one side. Classic duluth model.

Reading further, pure nonsense starts popping up, wuich ither comments here habe described sufficiently.

Skirt_Douglas · 2021-08-27T15:01:07+00:00

Menslib’s mods once again failing to read their own damn room. Many of the men that seek out spaces like LWMA, r/mensrights, and unfortunately r/Menslib, are domestic abuse survivors who were rejected with the exact same rhetoric as this guy when they tried to seek help. Way to spit in the face of your own user base.

ExcellentTraffic123 · 2021-08-27T15:04:50+00:00

I just can't with r\menslib.

I suspect that if you went in there and lit a match, the whole place would burst into flames from all the gaslighting.

Individual-March8163 · 2021-08-27T00:33:48+00:00

Wow he was so bad even Menslib called him out lol. He bombed hard. This isn't the first time I've seen these type of AMAs go wrong either:

https://np.reddit.com/r/science/comments/3rmapx/science_ama_series_im_laura_salazar_associate/

You have to wonder what attracts this type of people to Menslib 🤔

needletothebar · 2021-08-27T02:17:21+00:00

that sub is anti-male.

Enzi42 · 2021-08-27T10:58:33+00:00

I’m not sure if this counts as a personal attack but the guy doing that AMA was abjectly vile.

I kept reading through his answers with growing horror and I genuinely started to think thought that he was some kind of troll/provocateur with some of those answers he gave.

I’m glad Menslib mustered up some self respect and dignity, enough to push back. Truly a male misandrist if I’ve ever seen one.

Algoresball · 2021-08-27T20:47:15+00:00

I stopped reading at his “male victims are bigger and stronger” bs.

I was 13 years old and weighed 130 pounds.

austin101123 · 2021-08-27T21:35:46+00:00

The one thing I note is the absence of the language identifying male violence against women. Much of the language has shifted to “gender-based violence” or “intimate partner violence”. The “gender-based violence” language is useful but without also naming it as men’s violence against women, the primary perpetrators, men, are then made invisible in some ways. This only benefits the perpetrators. The ‘intimate partner violence’ can be useful as well as it is inclusive of battering that occurs in same sex relationships and not just heterosexual relationships.

Just erasing male victims, pretending women can't be abusive, and hating men and claiming they primarily perpetrate IPV. Which is not remotely true short version of huge meta analysis longer version, look at page 4 to get the full version.

Domestic violence is a foundation of sexist oppression...The Duluth Model, a coordinated community response, received the Gold Award from the Untied Nations as the best policy model in the world to attend to domestic violence...There is much resistance in the male dominated criminal justice system.

"Batter" is a term I use that refers to the full system of power and control a man uses to abuse and control his wife, girlfriend, partner, and children.

Misandry. And the implication that men are favored over women in the criminal justice system is false.

So I stopped going to strip clubs and using porn. Because i knew they were not choosing to be there. So this wasn't about sex. Without free choice, there is not consent. Without consent, it is rape.

SWERF

/u/NoodlePeeper asked "Do you feel that male domestic violence survivors are under researched and/or under supported? If so, why do you think this is and what obstacles do you feel need to change for that to happen?" and this was his fucking response

Regarding male survivors. This is an important discussion as many male abusers identify themselves as victims of those they abuse... If we are looking to support male survivors of battering, the substantial level of abuse against men is in same sex relationships.

Misandry, women-are-wonderful, homophobia.

I read the title and expected poorly. Someone only works with women only victim of men for IPV? Red flags.

Why are these comments still up too? Do AMAs get special protection against rules or is this shit not against the rules!?

I am glad to see the backlash from the users here. I see the comments and post isn't doing as well, but it's also been linked to in other subreddits.

I might make a separate post for this given its a day later and they posted their own post against that AMA.

HacksMe · 2021-08-27T07:03:06+00:00

I'm impressed with how menslib handled such a dated take on intimate partner violence and kept it up to expose its sexist roots instead of censor it.

BloomingBrains · 2021-08-27T18:34:41+00:00

This has to be one of the most white-knighty sounding self descriptions I have ever seen. I think I pulled a muscle from cringing too hard.

Playful-Reporter6577 · 2021-08-26T22:10:55+00:00

/r/menslib is cancer but there's not much we can do about it, other then call it out in other subs when its brought up.

-Gruagach- · 2021-08-27T00:50:26+00:00

I read through that and it's one of the few times I've genuinely got angry at something on the internet. The victim blaming, the denial of basic reality, the bad faith argumentation and the dodging of any criticism is just too much for me to consider this guy actually cares about victims of domestic abuse.

I acknowledge that women are the primary victims of domestic abuse. You cannot deny that, but the individual doesn't care about the statistics. Every individual victim of domestic abuse should be supported to the fullest extent. Their gender and every other protected characteristic is irrelevant. We're all human and we all deserve kindness and support when we've been hurt or we're hurting.

The basic lack of compassion in that AMA from the OP is disgusting. I apologise for the strength of some of the words I've used and I understand if this comment gets removed or I need to amend it.

fps81 · 2021-08-27T00:35:51+00:00

Considering 70%+ of domestic violence is perpetrated by women, and men have basically zero support as victims of domestic violence and face legal discrimination by police and courts, this just seems tone deaf. It's such an "all lives matter" response. Why not also teach black men not to struggle so much when being arrested?

DanteLivra · 2021-08-26T22:35:41+00:00

This reminds me of the "lady classes" of the renaissance. Kinda psuhing the idea that if you were treated like shit it's because you were not behaving like a "good girl".

LacklustreFriend · 2021-08-27T08:33:42+00:00

Reading through the comments in that thread, there are some good criticisms, but I still think many of the MensLibbers fail to acknowledge and issue criticism on a more fundamental issue.

For example, Chuck's assertion that men are physically stronger and dominant therefore they aren't victimised (paraphrased) was criticised on the basis that it excludes weak, disabled men etc. It's as if they don't actually disagree with Chuck's central premise, but are merely critical of his failure to consider edge cases.

A more fundamental, comprehensive, and (in my humble opinion) correct criticism is that domestic violence is virtually never a case of physical dominance. The physical and the emotional are fundamentally intertwined. I wonder how many of these commenters have ever been put into a situation where they have had to restrain or calm someone who is in a blind rage, especially someone who is weaker than them. There is great risk to both the subduer and the subdued. It's not pretty, irrespective of whether it physically is a challenge.

A physically strong man who is facing their female partner in a violent rage has basically no good options available to them. If he acts pre-emptively and restrains her, he risks injuring his partner, and has a high likelihood of being considered the primary aggressor even if does injure her. His partner will likely use it as emotional ammunition in future arguments.

He can restrain her when she begins to injure him, perhaps then it can be justified. But this suffers the same problems as pre-emptive restraint. After all, he still will likely be seen as the aggressor, and the injuries inflicted by his partner were in 'self-defence'. That's if his injuries are even noticed. Maybe he got them from playing football, or a DIY mishap, people think.

The last option is for the man to do nothing and take the abuse, which I would imagine is the most common response for men suffering unidirectional abuse. Also, I am only describing cases where the weaker partner is in a violent rage. What about situations where the weaker/female partner engages in selective and intermittent, but still very real and harmful physical abuse? Or extremely damaging emotional abuse? The situation becomes very complex.

Of course, there's the ever important emotional aspect. Restraining your partner, even if fully in self defence, carries a huge emotional toll. Can you imagine doing so to a loved one, especially if they're physically weaker? Even if they physically could, I imagine many men couldn't do so. It is easy to blame yourself in that situation, especially if things go awry. After all, men have had it drilled into them by traditionalist and feminist media and society alike to never ever harm a woman, including and up to self-defence. It seems to me that there is an imagination that domestic violence is akin to a medieval duel, where the physical capable one just subdues the weaker one, no problems. There's an ironic failure to acknowledge domestic violence is deeply emotional and interpersonal. To continue the bad duel analogy, a grown up, strong, young man is forced to duel his beloved father. Or maybe he has to duel his tyrannical father who inspires great terror. It's clear in these situations how the physical is almost incidental.

Blauwpetje · 2021-08-27T09:49:32+00:00

What's new? Was Men's Lib ever different?

griii2 · 2021-08-27T09:34:42+00:00

r/MensLib approach to men's liberation always reminded me of Saudi Arabia's approach to women's liberation:

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/06/28/saudi-arabian-womens-conference-picture_n_3515062.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39264349

When I will have time I will put together a meme about this.

2021-08-27T12:52:53+00:00

[permanently deleted]

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