Why Men Can't Talk About Their Struggles

Troll4everxdxd · 2023-09-22T06:59:44+00:00

"Feminism is for men too" is one giant lie.

Are there feminists that truly care about men and sincerely believe the movement is good for everyone? I have no doubt that these feminists exist.

However the movement itself and lots of other feminists show too much antagonism, dismissiveness, hostility and willful ignorance regarding men's issues.

The only problems afflicting men that feminism is somewhat willing to acknowledge (assuming they are in the mood of recognizing any of those problems at all) are the ones that can get chalked up to patriarchy and toxic masculinity. In other words, problems they can half heartedly make a fuss about how bad they are, before affirming that men should fall in line with feminism, prioritize destroying the patriarchy and it's grip on women, and magically, all of the issues afflicting men will disappear.

However the moment you mention any male problem outside of that little box like false accusations, parental alienation, family courts bias, domestic violence towards men, lack of shelters for male victims of DV, male suicide... A defense mechanism is activated in feminists' heads and they proceed to (lots of times with mockery and outright aggression) dismiss you and gaslight you:

That is a myth.
Even if it's not a myth, it happens very very rarely.
Even if it doesn't happen rarely, is not systemic.
Even if it is systemic, it's not feminism's fault.
Even if it is feminism's fault, it's nothing compared to what women go through. Men need to stop being assholes and realize not everything is about them.

I feel a mix of pity and disdain for male feminists or "allies" that go around shitting on non feminist men and women. They meekly accept belonging to a group of people in which they'll always have to walk in eggshells, stoically bear how their gender is "ironically" hated, and where any problems, traumas or complaints they might have will be on a super distant second place priority wise. I honestly can't see being a male feminist as anything but detrimental to your self esteem and mental health.

rammo123 · 2023-09-22T06:21:47+00:00

"Men you're free to talk to us about anything, just as long it doesn't make me uncomfortable, doesn't take up too much of my time, doesn't imply I'm at fault or I have to do anything to help, and doesn't take away a nanosecond of time dedicated to my problems. Oh and I retain full privileges to deny your lived experience based on my own!"

BreakdancingAardvark · 2023-09-22T07:49:12+00:00

I think there’s a little irony, how despite all the self-policing r/MensLib do to keep holding men monolithically responsible for all their problems, they still end up being called out as “Problematic” by one of the feminist subs.

This has become a problem for me and online “progressive” spaces - if you say anything that could undermine the purity of the ideological Project, you’re Sus.

Embarrassed_Chest_70 · 2023-09-22T06:30:41+00:00

I liked the thread about whether it's okay for a man to call a woman out for her internalized misogyny... "no, only we get to call people out, check your privilege."

Delicious-Tea-6718 · 2023-09-22T09:07:29+00:00

I would offer my own services but the key is whenever a woman like me validates what men are saying, their stance on "believe women" is also subject to change lol.

Bars!! Nailed it! Believe women as long as they believe the "correct things". You'll be labeled a "pick me".

They don't see their own pick me's, the men that constantly trashes other men and feel sorry for existing.

Sensitive_Housing_85 · 2023-09-22T10:09:22+00:00

i see , they believe that to talk about men issues , they have to be involved and it has to be on their own terms and for their own benefit , mind you , this was a sub created to help men but they seem more concerned about how the subreddit centers women rather than helping men

soggy_sock1931 · 2023-09-22T11:47:45+00:00

Men need to believe women and listen to women but also women don't need to listen to or believe men.

Good observation. They are massive hypocrites. Also, we can't bring up our issues on their threads because men only want to minimise their issues. Okay, that's fine. Yet, they do the very thing they're criticising when the topic is regarding men. This is projection.

they are quick to jump in and start demanding that women moderate those discussions and ensure their voices take precedent.

I remember Aba n Preach having this issue on their channel. Some women believed the channel needed a female voice to be added, this idea was thankfully rejected lol.

Because any male dominated space is eventually going to devolve into an anti-women hate group. They can’t help themselves, the patriarchy runs too deep.

Another instance of projection. They know how they discuss men in their safe spaces and they are afraid of men doing the same. It's similar to the 'locker room talk' they keep mentioning.

Also, I don't know why they keep using the word 'allies', allies help each other, not use the other party when they need help and then tell them to deal with their own issues.

nexkell · 2023-09-22T12:22:05+00:00

The translation for this is: I feel comfortable dismissing men's lived experiences because as a woman, I feel like they don't really happen

This, but they can't wrap their head around how women are not angels like they so often think women are. Feminists constantly defend bad behavior from women all the time. More so feminists constantly shield and deflect any and all accountability from women. Feminists love to deflect and turn everything against men and blame men for everything.

I think it would be more helpful if there were a sub dedicated to men wanting to be better allies to women and also process their own trauma based around their gender, but still with LISTEN TO WOMEN, BELIEVE WOMEN as a major rule. I think a lot of women WANT to help and offer insight, but our insight is rejected...

And feminists say men victim blame, while feminists love to blame men for their own issues all the time. Feminists also love to deny how women had any part in men's issues. And feminists wonder why men aren't running to help feminists.

But meanwhile when men want their own space to just discuss their struggles and experiences, they are quick to jump in and start demanding that women moderate those discussions and ensure their voices take precedent.

Feminists can't stand men having their own spaces to talk about their own issues. Its why they are pissed they can't control /r/MensRights and thought they where able to make /r/MensLib to their ideal liking. They wanted to tone police basically Menslib. And are upset its not a sub that's totally blaming men. Even though the sub already bashes men.

Let's be honest what they're really mad about lol.

They are upset because they don't have total control and say. Which is what feminists want. Feminists are the very thing they claim to be against.

StarZax · 2023-09-22T12:50:47+00:00

They like to think that men can't talk about their struggles because of other men

I had struggles talking about stuff about both men and women really, and guess what kind of men I can't talk about that kind of stuff ...

It's pretty simple : People who know they aren't oppressors or perpetrators of any shit know if you aren't too and offer actual support to be a better human being rather than convince you that you are as bad as they are.

Actually, the most supportive guys I've met where those who just have 0 interest in feminism.

And I know that the few feminists that will pass by will just think « yeah it's easier to have people telling you that it's not your fault and don't have to work on yourself » and I'll tell you that, back when I considered myself as a feminist, I'm pretty sure that I would have killed myself if I didn't open my eyes about what these people truly think of me and how to actually deal with that. Because « being better » by their standards is never enough. It was fine when I really just didn't wanted to understand truly what all their concepts where, and I don't even mean that I wanted to contradict those, I mean that I literally just wanted all of that to make sense in my head instead of just eating the shit I was being told and I literally got harassed for that.

Men that call themselves feminists are either people that are just way too deep into it for whatever reason, or they just don't know any better, they're just like « yeah yeah support women you know » just like we've been told for centuries that men were meant to defend children and women I guess. There's no way a guy could truly try to understand all that stuff and not see how contradictory to real life it is. Maybe they will start to realize that it's really never ending.

Vegetable_Camera5042 · 2023-09-22T06:48:07+00:00

I remember seeing that thread. It seems like she is missing context.

For example, she mentions men complaining about being labeled as creepy for existing, without explaining the context behind a situation where a man would feel this way.

This is also a good question here.

https://reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/s/7tf4Lxo88X

OddSeraph · 2023-09-22T13:23:38+00:00

I definitely feel bad for men who have had run-ins with women who have skewed perceptions, but I can't help but feel that a majority of this sentiment being expressed isn't based on anything more than conjecture.

So they finally said the quiet part out loud. Personally I'm glad they said it because it finally proves what I've thought they've believed for so long.

I think it would be more helpful if there were a sub dedicated to men wanting to be better allies to women and also process their own trauma based around their gender, but still with LISTEN TO WOMEN, BELIEVE WOMEN as a major rule. I think a lot of women WANT to help and offer insight, but our insight is rejected...

This sounds like some abusive behavior. "Hey men we're going to yell you why all of your problems are your fault and all of our problems are also your fault!" Also I'm not going to believe someone just because they share the same genitals as me that's some weird shit. For all the shit men are given for only believing other men, these women literally want you to only believe women.b

They don't want allies. Many of them on their subs have already stated that they don't think men can be true allies. They want drones who will agree with whatever they say.

Also "believe women" is flawed. It should mean take women's words seriously as you would do man's but don't automatically start assigning guilt. What it is in practice is "every women is undoubtedly telling the truth." It's not like US has a history of women either trying to falsely accuse or actually falsely accusing minorities of crimes

Because any male dominated space is eventually going to devolve into an anti-women hate group. They can’t help themselves, the patriarchy runs too deep.

Ah yes, good ole gender essentialism. Men are somehow inherently broken, but women aren't. Some of the most toxic, racist spaces on Reddit are run by women. Oh but they'll quickly say "no true feminist behaves like that" or "God forbid we have out own space!"

Also these same women who always say men can't help supporting the patriarchy would never say that white women (who most of them are) can't help but support white supremacy! I wonder why is that?

country2poplarbeef · 2023-09-22T12:57:02+00:00

Maybe they should put a "BELIEVE MEN, LISTEN TO MEN" motto in their sub and see how that works out. Any women wanna have their conversations derailed by a man taking over? Lol

BannanasAreEvil · 2023-09-22T13:45:53+00:00

Find a woman who actually cares about men's struggles and hardships and you'll find a woman who says she's not a feminist. Find a woman who takes accountability for her own mistakes and doesn't become a victim at every turn and you'll find a woman who says she's not a feminist.

These are not women who believe that they themselves live on easy mode, or women who don't believe too many women are assaulted, nor are these women who've never been mistreated by a man. These are women who recognize toxic behaviors in both sexes, take accountability in their own toxic behaviors of the past and believe everybody of every walk of life struggles.

It really boils down to if people have a victim mentality or not. As a victim you can't have empathy towards the representation of your pain/struggle. If a man hurt you, you can't have empathy when you hear men talk about a struggle they are having if you believe yourself to be a victim. Yet if a man in your past hurt you and you refuse to become a victim the idea that another man is struggling allows room for empathy because they are not living in a state of victimhood.

To me that is really all feminism is about, perpetual victimhood. It alleviates any need for self reflection, accountability and personal growth. Instead the patriarchy is a scapegoat for their own failures and struggles. Toxic Masculinity is the scapegoat in which they can blame men for men's issues and refuse to take any accountability for their part in perpetuating struggles faced by men. Rape culture is the scapegoat they can use to avoid accountability for the series of events that placed them into a situation "sometimes" they regret. Accountability is the bane to every toxic person, male or female. Feminism has just given a subset of our population verbal weapons to use to avoid it, to perpetuate a state of perpetual victimhood all to avoid the icky feeling of being accountable for some of your actions when they have a negative outcome.

JetChipp · 2023-09-22T21:09:29+00:00

But our insight is rejected...

If this so called "insight" boils down to "something something patriarchy, "something something toxic masculinity", "men need to be better", "this was done by other men", "misandry is never systemic", "misandry is justified" or anything among these lines then they can pick their "insight" and shove it up their backside for all I care.

Leobrandoxxx · 2023-09-22T14:53:24+00:00

A feminist subreddit

Stop going to feminist places and expecting them to understand men's issues. It's their echo chamber. Sharing this is useless here.

Johntoreno · 2023-09-22T17:21:31+00:00

I think it would be more helpful if there were a sub dedicated to men wanting to be better allies to women

And these are the same people that spam "Women don't owe men anything" on Men's Rights Subreddits.

DesoLina · 2023-09-22T23:24:11+00:00

Leftist have two choices right now:

1) Create space that is welcoming and empathetic to men, which allows them to does up speak THEIR problems and be heard. 2) Someone other will create it (ex. tate, redpill, religious organisations, far-right). And left will cry about “raise of alt-right among young make population”.

cyberspace_87 · 2023-09-22T21:27:27+00:00

I don't have to believe women.

Also, I wish feminist's would stop putting women on pedestals.

Also, I don't know where this mental load comes from tbh. I've met and dealt with a lot of women who couldn't handle themselves emotionally at all. They repeat the same thought patterns from TikTok therapists, tumblr and daytime Tv and claim it's their feelings. They know how to use the lingo.

Of course, there are women who can actually reflect and process their OWN feelings/thoughts but the majority, all I hear is the same thing over, over again.

ERiC_693 · 2023-09-22T20:44:29+00:00

The second comment you quoted sounds like insecurity. Feminists see men are starting to talk about our issues but dont want feminists present. This is the only way male issues can be talked-about. Otherwise it will be persistently dismissed, derailed or men will be blamed for it all.

All this allyship dribble makes me want to puke. Feminists outwardly deny male issues and use millions on mens taxes to fund their grievance festival while far more serious issues men face get no funding.

The other issue is the number of women in men's orgs is noticable and I'd say Feminists see it too. There are many women who can see through feminists and their lies. My mother being one of them. Feminists also obsess over rich white women at the top while standing on the heads of minority women and men This ironically isn't what feminism is supposed to be doing, yet white females love it. Why wouldnt they? There's a reason white middle-class women in their 20s flood into gender studies degrees, women's studies, sociology etc. And minority women dont usually, its because white females see it's all about themselves.

dr_pepper02 · 2023-09-22T22:26:26+00:00

It’s all about controlling the narrative, if you control the media and any spaces of discussion then you have control of the narrative surrounding any issue.

But it’s the usual feminist mentality they’re support something as long as a women collectively benefit. Example they’ll talk about toxic masculinity (defining masculinity for men) and male violence but will be the first to call on men to be violent on a woman’s behalf when it’s convenient for women.

That’s female violence by proxy because they will not be violent themselves but will call on others men, or representatives of the state to be violent on their behalf while they play innocent.

LettuceBeGrateful · 2023-09-23T19:59:56+00:00

it would be more helpful if there were a sub dedicated to men wanting to be better allies to women

This is just one big eyeroll.

My entire life, I've been told that women need spaces to discuss their issues, and that one of the most irritating things on the planet is when men swoop in and derail their conversations. Yet now, they think what men need to process their issues is to...discuss women's issues? That's so unaware and selfish, it borders on narcissism.

Menslib was always walking a tightrope. Its community bends over backwards to be a good feminist space, and they still get accused of being part of the alt-right pipeline. Some people just don't want men assembling to talk about their feelings at all.

Edit: Holy shit. Someone actually said, "We [women] are probably more aware of their struggles than they are." I seriously cannot imagine the hubris required to say that.

zaph239 · 2023-09-23T07:02:31+00:00

I call it womansplaining, when a woman thinks she knows more about the male experience, male problems and how the male mind works than an actual man.

The reason why women and especially feminists are so reluctant to acknowledge the struggles of men, is it involves acknowledging their own privilege and power. While accepting that their claims of male privilege are overblown.

If you read what actual men have to say, one of the big male issues is sex and relationships. How men are made to feel invisible and unwanted. Outside and in some cases inside relationships.

However to acknowledge that would require women to acknowledge the power and privileged they have in the world of dating, which isn't going to happen.

Foxsayy · 2023-09-22T16:54:29+00:00

u/Enticing_Venom can you link to the thread and the comments you quoted? I'd like to read them.

hotpotato128 · 2023-09-22T21:29:14+00:00

Feminists believe men oppress women. Obviously, they wouldn't want to listen to men's issues.

amakusa360 · 2023-09-23T04:33:37+00:00

The mask has never come off faster. Even men's spaces have to service women.

WSsleet · 2023-09-27T13:31:39+00:00

I'm really glad I found this post. I understand that what a lot of feminists want is simple equality, but it seems that many of them simply can't support men and our problems.

Sensitive_Housing_85 · 2023-09-22T09:54:31+00:00

Sorry I am about to go on a rant on one of their replies to the linked post because the cracks in their response is too annoying to ignore

As far as I know, but I may be off about a couple of things, the core tenets of feminism are equality and equal of all gender expressions, gender identities and non-hetero normative Sexualities. Also I believe acknowledgement of the patriarchal system which system which has, and continues to, suppress anyone that is not a cis-gendered man. Suppression can also affect men who fail to perform patriarchal masculinity but all those who are non-cisgendered men (ciswomen, transgender folk, non-binary folk, queer folk) are largely the targets of the negative suppression of patriarchy. Patriarchal Suppression is diverse in terms of manifestation; this can range from revoking of rights to disparities in compensation. I think Feminists, agree with all or most of these things. So basically, explicit or implicit acknowledgement and accepting of the tenets of feminism (even if I've missed some) make you a Feminist in my opinion.

i will try to be at least charitable because this person is actually going on their own opinion, the idea that feminist believe that CIS gendered men are not hindered under patriarchy is even something they DISAGREE with , they believe toxic masculinity also suppresses men preventing them from and those who do not fit these standards of masculinity ultimately and in obscurity, that's why they feminine men or men who challenge the status quo fail under the patriarchy , it is also the reason why men don't express their problem and emotion, based on their ideology this is actually a hinderance, even in terms of right men's rights are also revoked, take the situations like the draft , you cannot choose to reject it ,

men also simply couldn't own property for being a man , this idea that men were not hinder in the "patriarchy "is even something that by their ideology they don't even agree with , Also they also take into account racial differences and how Asian men and black men are affected regardless of sexuality , so this is even false

. So people who say "men ain't shit." May not realize how that statement isn't Feminist exactly Feminist because "not all men" and transmen. But then again, their consistent harmful experiences by the hands of multiple men may have led to them to actually believe all men are harmful. I mean sure some Feminists may hear of non-harmful men but have yet to experience it, and thus its hard for them to not generalize. I mean it's not an excuse at all but these people aren't exactly less Feminist than you or I.

The Idea that feminists have not experienced non harmful men makes no sense , this implies that every interaction they have with men is always negative, this makes no sense, because if this were true that would mean they are no neutral interaction , it is literaly impossible that every man is out to get them, because even statisitcally there is no proof of this idea, it would also mean men as a whole are simply terrible and mean to women even in mundane experiences , and in the age of social media , we are aware this is false , in their personal lives maybe , but this is simply proof that they somehow percieved themselves as much more important than they actually are and they even percieve men who interact with them as a threat for simply existing even when the interaction went smoothly or no interaction at all. its insane , makes sense that they would care about trans men more than cis men

Lastly, people engage with Feminism through their own personal experiences. Our experiences determine how we engage with feminism. Usually when I see feminists talk about the gender gap in pay, I find they usually (not always) come from a place or privellege because they can afford to not have to not approach feminism with an intersectional lens. However you usually can't really say one person is more Feminist than the other. Maybe if some Feminists refuse to acknowledge the experiences of other Feminists (like TERFs) you can get away with saying that.

Again, not a definite statement of fact. This just how I would answer OPs concerns of "true Feminists"

Also they seem to be able to make use of terrible experiences to imply justification for misandry , i would say that most men have had bad experiences with women but a lot of them had horrifying experiences with women , it is also common in rapists, some of them have been victim of child abuse which women are more likely to commit , they have also been victims of SA , Bullying, domestic violence , verbal violence, emotional manipulation and abuse , and subject to toxic behaviors, false accusations of anything , reputation destruction for no reason, and most of these have gone unnoticed until the recent decades, now let me clarify , there are unjustified form of misogyny and there are men who are simply terrible to women because they are just misogynistic , but the idea that is the only source of misogyny is something feminist tend to deny and it pisses me off as someone who experience SA as a kid by a woman, there are several reason why men can hate women , and a lot of those reasons women are to blame, and initially i would not have use this as a basis but it seems they don't care as long as you have experienced truama from a man your misandry is justified right, a lot of men have gone through BS at the hands of women, not just simply rejection, and feminist tend to deny this even till now . even when they bring it , it is to critic toxic masculinty that men dont report it , they rarely call out this behaviour in women

anthonyprov · 2023-09-22T17:39:33+00:00

"Men should have a space, but only if it meets our criteria and standards." Why does anyone need the validation or approval of these people? You're exactly right about this cognitive dissonance regarding emotional labor. If you are, as many say, tired of "mothering" men, then why don't you allow them to leave Barbieland and figure it out on their own, as beloved sister Greta Gerwig succinctly articulated? Why do you insist on power and control?

Listening is a two-way street. Accountability is a two-way street. Demand it from yourself before you demand it from others. The cultural and social deference given to feminism and its talking points are a unique privilege that you have as women, and you're using it to enact emotional and psychological violence on men collectively. "Be better"; "check your privilege." How about YOU take stock of your misandry, ill-feelings, and junk, instead of projecting it perpetually? You are a burden! Go to therapy!

hottake_toothache · 2023-09-22T12:56:31+00:00

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is a men vs women problem. I think it's a feminists vs men's rights problem.

Isn't that denying women agency? Your assuming that, if you don't like what they are doing, they must be the puppets of some other force. I think this is infantilizing.

Motanul_Negru · 2023-09-23T14:57:14+00:00

See, this is why I'm anti-feminist. Feminism is basically patriarchy but with men and women's places swapped. Don't many of them actually advocate for matriarchal society?

I mean, I understand that stiff, radical resistance to the misogyny still rampant all around us is a must, but they're not doing themselves any favours with this rejection of any nuance.

Edit: I've called feminism female supremacist the same way, say, the KKK is white supremacist; but it's not like the KKK would go to bat for any white people they don't like or need or want to recruit. So-called race traitors/ non-feminist women are next to black people/ men in their books.

YourPiercedNeighbour · 2023-09-30T10:46:47+00:00

If you think Menslib cares about men’s problems, try talking about how ending routine infant circumcision would be a great start. See how long your post lasts

Title	Why Men Can't Talk About Their Struggles
Author	Enticing_Venom
Upvotes	278
Comments	87
Date	September 22, 2023 4:40 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/16p15d9/why_men_cant_talk_about_their_struggles/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/why-men-cant-talk-about-their-struggles.1232586 https://theredarchive.com/post/1232586

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