And there we have it.

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I always hear about "the women vote" or "the black/hispanic vote"

but what about just the every day man's vote?

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Not a woman, always liked triceratops?

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[–]Strange_Dragons 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

egalitarianism

Egalitarianism isn't a movement, it's a philosophical position. Should we dissolve the MRM and shift over to the "egalitarian movement"?

he also said the same about feminism

So, big deal? Anon doesn't like either movement. Why should I care?

feminist mangina ... anything less than wanting to lick a feminist's filthy corn hole is "misogyny" and "sexist" ...

I don't even know what to say here.

First off: the term "mangina" is a horrid term that you shouldn't use. You're supposedly a Men's Rights Activist, and that means you're supposed to fight for Men against harmful gender roles and discrimination. "Mangina" is a term that re-entrenches the "men must be strong warriors" bullshit, which feeds directly into the "men must protect women" chivalry crap. It's like calling a black person a "nigger". Don't do it.

Second, stop ranting and raving. Poe's Law is an ugly thing to fall into. Keep your spaghetti in your pockets. Good lord.

Third: you're claiming that some random anon, apparently just because this anon said that MRA is bullshit (and in spite of this anon claiming the same about feminism), deserves all sorts of name-calling and other bullshittery. Wow. I don't have the words. Grow up.

[–]DerpaNerb -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Here is what people need to understand about the differences between (most of) feminism, and the MRM.

The MRM does not contain a belief system... there is no "matriarchy" theory, there is nothing that stops an MRA from also being a "WRA" or a christian, or an atheist, or a muslim, or a KKK member, or whatever. The MRM simply looks at "fact-based" discrimination, and says it should be fixed. There is no problem with someone saying "hey look, men don't have as much choice in becoming a father" and that same person also saying "women are discriminated against in these areas too!".

Now with feminism, it's not this simple. Most (if not all) believe in shit like patriarchy theory and the rape culture. They are much more than "womens rights activists" (even though they claim that equal rights is still their end goal) because feminism almost requires a belief in the above mentioned patriarchy. Now the problem with this, is patriarchy says a lot of stuff. Some of that stuff basically says (depending on your definition of patriarchy, which seems to change every minute) that men are privileged, in fact, ALL men are privileged, and hold power, and therefore cannot be discriminated against. If a base belief of a feminist is that men cannot be discriminated against, then how can that person also claim to care about equal rights for men?

This is the primary difference and it is why telling an MRA to be an egalitarian is stupid while telling a feminist to be an egalitarian actually holds some weight. Being an MRA and an egalitarian or a "WRA" are not mutually exclusive titles. Being a feminist and an egalitarian or MRA, ARE in fact mutually exclusive. You cannot view all men as privileged and then claim to view all people as equal.

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ANd what's funny, is feminists actually make fun of it and say shit like "WUT ABOUT THE MENZ!!!".

They fail to realize that there is a huge difference between trying to say "men have it worse" (which is not often the case) and "please include men in this too".

A good example is in the threat about the UN's recent decision to ban FGM. WHY the fuck would they make it a gender issue? Even if for some reason they didn't believe male circumcision required a ban... that is NOT the only form of MGM. They start a discussion by saying something like "infant genital mutilation is a bad thing". Then some asshole somewhere says "but females have it much worse, let's disregard males because yeah!".

What the fuck is the logic in that? If they only talked about "IGM", then they could have also benefited male infants with absolutely no detriment to the females. But no, because someone actually think's its acceptable to just blatantly discriminate, we now have a decision (which in all honesty won't do that much, the people who perform FGM don't even know what the fuck the UN is... but it's symbolic more than anything) that further "allows" MGM to happen, for no reason at all.

But yeah, as I said, the worse types of FGM are definitely more common than the worse types of MGM (aka anything not circumcision), but frequency (or relative lack of) is not an excuse.

Using that logic, I should be able to look at the number of suicides each year and be like "Wow, this is a lot, and is becoming a problem, let's stop this" . And then I can look at the gender split and say "Wow, men make up 80% of all suicides, lets ONLY focus on saying suicide is bad for men". What is the logic in that? The problem (suicide is bad), and the solution (don't off yourself), are exactly the same, so why make it a gender issue? There is no reason to forget about the 20% females that also kill themselves just because men have it worse/more frequently.

This is all of course, ignoring the fact that despite males making up the majority, females actually get the majority of funding, which is ass-backwards to begin with. So it's not even a case of "lets only try and solve the problems of the majority", it's : "let's only try and solve female problems". Asking to be included in these efforts is not the same as "PLEASE ONLY FOCUS ON MEN AND FORGET ABOUT WOMEN!".

Sorry for the rant.

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

it's ok I get what you're saying and agree. i think FGM is absolutely sickening, I read a book called Waris: Desert Flower and they did it to the author. She would be in the worst agony during her period and she had to get it reversed. she was lucky for it not to become infected as they don't use clean surgical tools or anything. i can see why that's getting all the attention at the moment and rightly so, but i do think MGM needs a little more attention. if we can't stamp out either, we need to at least try to educate the people performing it about the damage they are doing. get them to meet qualified doctors and surgeons and get lectures from them about hygiene and stuff. educate them about medicine. tell them of the damage they're doing. as for the suicide stuff, here in Australia it is mostly focused on men and I feel there needs to be more stories from women about suicide and self-harm. A few stories in Dolly or Girlfriend isn't enough. Yes men need to be more open about suicide but so do women. Male or female, suicide is suicide and we need to be reaching out to those who suffer in silence and let them know we're here for them. As someone who has been treated for depression since 11, I feel like it's not taken seriously enough, especially teen depression and suicide. When I mention I was diagnosed at 11, people laugh and say "oh did you lose your footy or something?" and don't get that yes, believe it or not, children can be depressed.

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[–]DerpaNerb9 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, he said exactly what it is.

What, do you think the MRM is a club that people can join, and once they do they have to give up their "membership" to all of the other clubs they are possibly in? Are you stupid?

The MENS RIGHTS MOVEMENT, is about mens rights. Unlike feminism, we do not claim to also care just as much about womens rights, and unlike feminism, we have not pushed for, or passed any legislation that discriminates against an entire gender (VAWA for a quick and easy example). Also unlike feminism, we do not base our movement around a dogmatic belief in the patriarchy that paints all men as bad.... this is the big difference. MRM has absolutely no "beliefs" involved in it that make it's "members" unable to join other groups. You can be an MRA and still be a christian, or an atheist, or a "WMA", or a KKK member, or whatever the fuck you want. Alternatively, how can a feminist legitimately claim she cares about mens rights, if one of her core beliefs with feminism is that all men are privileged, and therefore cannot be discriminated against, and all men are conspiring against women to keep their privilege.

The problem is that YOU are not thinking about it, and just asking fucking stupid questions that you have already gotten an answer for.

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But if a woman wants with all her heart to support her country by being a soldier and can't, that is in fact benevolent sexism. There are still a lot of jobs women aren't permitted to do.

Yes. If that was the case then I'd agree with you. It is by benevolent sexism that women are kept off the battle field. It is not by benevolent sexism that women aren't forced to sign up to have themselves slaughtered at the drop of a hat. Calling SS benevolent sexism against women would be like calling... well shit, I actually can't think of anything off the top of my head in our society that women are forced to do (or else be stripped of rights enjoyed by everyone else) solely because they are women. But yeah, if you can think of that anything like that then it'd be like saying that was benevolent sexism against men.

It undermines the issue by shifting the focus of the party suffering from the specific thing to the one that isn't. I cannot concede that being unable to support your country via direct combat is "more" suffering than being dead, but I don't believe you can get a level of suffering worse than dead. I hate that the comparison has to be made here, because I find that comparing subjective things like suffering is beyond a waste of both parties times.

I'm saying that your argument for choosing MR over another option is that women aren't being, as you say, marginalized. I'm saying that's a cop out and can easily be said by WRAs about MR.

Ah. Perhaps I should have been slightly more specific. Women are not marginalized in the same ways/areas as men. That isn't to say they can't be marginalized in other ways/areas (being treated as children comes to mind), but to say that men's issues should be ignored because women are also marginalized is as bad as the reverse.

The real issue here is you're acting like you can only choose one and you are unable to care about the other. As though, by supporting MR you are fighting against WR, or even that you become unable to support WR. It's not a zero-sum game.

I, personally, am more interested in men's rights because I am a man and these issues have a direct barring on my life (in mores ways than it would if I were a woman, at the very least). I do care about women's rights, however.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]RealQuickPoint2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm saying that if you do choose one over the other to be active about, there is a reason for it.

"If you make a choice, there must be a reason." That's a pretty tautological statement, and doesn't really give you much information. The reason could be "I flipped a coin and it came up heads so I went with women's rights."

OP was criticizing this woman's reason for choosing when the majority of MRAs that I know do the same thing - women are already privileged and therefore don't need my help.

I'd imagine it was a combination of feeling like enough of the issues women face have been addressed and wanting someone to acknowledge areas where they were lacking.

Hence the complete dismissal of anyone calling themselves feminist.

I believe the dismissal comes more from fact that things like Patriarchy are the keystone of feminist dogma (as far as I understand it), which frames the discussion into "men are the enemies who oppress us." It also subtly implies that men don't have issues (or if they do, that eliminating women's issues will magically fix men's issues) because they are privileged. There is also the idea that feminism has made it slightly worse for men via pushing for legislation/defining things so they would be exclusive to men suffering (I.E. VAWA, I think. I see it cited often, anyway).

Either way, I don't imagine most MRs would say that women don't have issues because they're privileged, nor would they imply that fixing men's issues would fix women's issues. MRs are instead dismissed because "Men are privileged and therefore cannot have issues/misandry don't real"

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[–]Nepene -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I've met your type. Semifeminist, probably a mother/wife so you have some mild dislike of feminism's more rabid man hating ways but you're extremely sympathetic to feminism. As such you came in here, outraged that we weren't working hard to help women's rights.

You probably live in a quite conservative area where feminism is less of a problem. It's rather hard for anyone with a brain in a liberal area to like what teachers do with little boys in the schooling system. You could live in a gated community with good schools as well I guess.

Here's what we see, in our less conservative areas- continual and repeated efforts by all major authorities to help women's rights. The education system teaches women they can be whatever they want, the police are super sympathetic to women, businesses work really hard to accomodate women who want to be mothers.

There is no similar effort for men, and most authorities take the view that men have privilege and there is no point helping them.

As such, when you say "A lot of people would disagree with you. And probably say that men are in no way discriminated against."

I am not inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are not one of those people who would disagree. Your feminist days probably did teach you that.

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It would behoove us all to actually read through a thread and not choose, out of context, a comment we'd like to reply to.

It would behoove you not to assume that if I don't agree, it must be because I haven't read, or don't understand.

I am not criticizing the MRM for not dealing with women's rights. I'm calling out the hypocrisy of doing so and then blaming women/WR for looking first at women's rights.

I thought the difference was so obvious that I didn't have to say it.

If I have a cat show that doesn't have categories for dogs, that's fine.
If I have a pet show that has categories for dogs and for cats, that fine.
If I have a dog show that calls itself a dog show, has no categories for cats, but claims to be for all pets, and tries to stop anyone from having a cat show because the dog show is "is for all pets"... not fine.

The problem isn't that feminism is about and for women. The problem is that it claims to represent us, too. But doesn't actually do so.

We call them out not because we expect them to deal with men's rights, but because they are lying and saying they do. (In order to stop us from dealing with men's rights, if they can.)

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[–]Whisper1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Does it?

Why are we to talk about women's rights activism, in the absence of feminism? Is there some non-feminist WRA movement I haven't heard about?

Feminism's best dirty trick was to convince the world it was synonymous with women's rights. But to some extent, that trick has created its own reality.

OP's screenshot is full of the same old canards: 1 in 3 women gets beaten, women's problems are worse and more pressing than men's, and so on.

Are we to pretend this person is not drawing from feminist sources? Are we to pretend that she has nothing in common with them, and is, in fact, some sort of pure, platonic women's rights activist of a sort seldom if ever seen in the wild?

Are we so desperate to dodge the fatuous charge of "mithogyny!" that we bend over backwards into deliberate and calculated naivete?

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This isn't entirely true. A lot of MR members and MR activists do indeed care about women's rights, as well. However, they still advocate primarily for men's rights, as that is the focal point of their philosophy.

I'm an avid supporter and (at minimum) awareness advocate of men's rights in my own personal social circles, but that doesn't mean I still don't support women's rights, or that I don't care about them - I'm just not outspoken about them. Especially given that the government has taken it upon themselves to champion the women's rights movement themselves.

The problem is that women don't need support from men. However, until more women start supporting men's rights, we'll continue to get the short end of the stick in many areas.

Again, we are interested in women's rights, just not personally invested in them, as we simply aren't needed to be. The inverse is not true, unfortunately.

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Dude, it was Gandalf.

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I see this so much. After a long argument where I fight like hell to get people to admit that circumcision, for example, is a human rights violation, people say "well ok, its wrong, but I just don't care about it much." this, after they clearly cared about it enough to argue with me and look up misleading stats to support it.

and the logical move, after it's admittted to be a wrong, would be to say it should not be allowed. yet they'll still say they might do it because "everyone else is doing it." granted, they might change their tune after they've had time to think about it, but hell, it requires very little effort to oppose. I'm not asking them to take to the streets with a sandwich board, just to not force it on kids. to take less effort by not acting. but they dismiss. and some will then even outright support it later.

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I disagree.

I am not black, should I care about racism towards black people?

I am also not a woman, should I give 2 shits about whether woman have a right to their bodies or a continued right to vote?

Using your logic, I apparently shouldn't. Truthfully, for me not to care about these things would make me an extremely un-empathetic douchebag.

Now she could argue that mens rights are not an issue that feminism need sto concern itself with, just like womens rights are not an issue that the MRM needs to concern itself with. That's fine.

The one problem with feminism however, is that one if it's core beliefs is the patriarchy which means a woman who is a feminist can't really care about mens rights at all ... even outside feminism.

The MRM is different in this regard. There is no central "all women are privileged in all areas of life therefore they cannot be discriminated against" belief. The MRM just says "look at these specific areas where men are bing discriminated against, this isn't right and it shouldn't continue to be ignored". Nothing about that stops me from also being a "womens rights activist" or a humanist, or an egalitarian.

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[+]megatuxracer 13 years ago* [recovered] (43 children) | Copy Link

Among feminists, it is always "men don't face discrimination"; "men face discrimination, but there are more important women's issues"; or "men face discriminations every day and it is a problem and I am a feminist and there's nothing wrong with feminism and if you want to change it so much then you should do something about it and you should probably join feminism!" And they all hate the MRM. How does one do something about it when ones efforts to do something about it are stymied by all feminists? Those three retorts every single time. There is never any other sentiment.

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[–]kazagistar -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

He said absolutely nothing about buying into feminism... it is likely, that like most of us here, he thinks that some of the feminists are quite full of shit quite often.

He is merely commenting on the irony of using a single example as evidence to prove how superior all men are to all women at intelectual debate.

Given sufficient evidence, it might be possible (through some effort) to prove something along the lines of "women are on average worse at citing scientific evidence then men in debates" or that they "usually rely on ethos more". There is a vast chasm between that and implying that women are inherently inferior intellectually to men, and no amount of dismissing people with ad homenim attacks is going to change that.

The problem with feminism is that they draw an arbitrary line (men vs women) and decide to solve social issues along those lines. If SOME women are disadvantaged in a certain area, they claim that society vicimizes ALL women. If SOME men are privalaged in a certain area, they claim that ALL men are privilaged.

The evil comes from declaring a group, taking a statistical trait of a group, and then acting as if it was the trait of EVERYONE in that group followed that trait. Then you end up punishing or rewarding those who do NOT share the trait, which is utterly unjust, and leads to the problems we have now.

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[–]DaVincitheReptile3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

damn you sound like extreme feminists. get a clue. i find it especially hilarious that you called out Smokeya on being respectful when he was very clearly respectful in his initial reply. it was you in response to him that the situation became very disrespectful. seriously your attitude is identical to the feminist attitude that most sensible/rational people, especially people around this subreddit, claim to despise.

i think the fact that you are opening your mouth (typing your thoughts) while simultaneously being dumb and disrespectful goes quite a bit against your argument that women only think with their feelings. you are clearly very guilty of just that in this conversation, so ultimately your attitude is disproving what you seem to believe, that men have a greater capacity for intelligence.

in other words, shut the fuck up, dumb people shouldn't speak as you put it.

[–]Smokeya2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[+]megatuxracer 13 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Essentially. They completely miss the context through which the MRM exists, and they continue to look at gender issues from a gynocentric perspective in all cases. For 3, they honestly believe that feminism is actually taking men's issues seriously, so they actually look at it through the feminine lense by proxy of 1 and 2.

[–]Wulibo 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]megatuxracer 13 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I didn't pay attention to your wording. There is either an ignorance of the movement's existence and--because they believe feminism actually has an eye out for gender equality--therefore the MRM is not necessary or they have heard of the MRM as a movement of misogyny that wants to return to the repression of women. The former usually scoffs at the idea that feminism does not really look at men's issues accurately.

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Nah you know what? I think this is fine. Great even. I would much rather that the majority of feminists stay as far away as possible from issues that affect men.

Because you know what happens when they take an interest? They either colonize it, or they attack it.

Look what happens when feminists groups "care about" equal parenting laws- they stand in the way.

Look what happens when feminists get involved in men's emotional issues- they either mock it, or they attempt to instruct men in the "proper" way to act. (i.e. the "good" men project)

They minimized and made invisible men who had been raped and abused, or they treated them like the perpetrators. it's only very recently that they will grudgingly admit that it's even possible for a woman to abuse a man (and even then it's often handwaved away as "different")

They don't give a shit about the fact that men are the majority of prisoners, they majority in every unnatural cause of death except one, the fact that men work longer hours, retire later, and die sooner.

So, you know what? Fuck it. We don't need, and we don't want, their help. All we should want is for them to stay the fuck away.

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[–]mtux96 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

In my experience, leaving is hard. Recognizing that it was abuse might be easy. Knowing that you don't have to take it might be easy. Overcoming the fear that there will be hell to pay if you try to leave is hard especially when you fear that people will only believe her word if you try to speak up against it and that she could easily place you in trouble whenever she wanted to by coming up with some story to the police. It's never so black and white and different situations are different. If I had a choice between being a female or a male being abused, I'd pick being a female because there's more support and more people are more likely to believe a female than a male was being abused, especially when the male being abused appears to look stronger than the female abusing him. But that could be bias talking and ideally no one would have to be abused to start off with.

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Title	And there we have it.
Author	What_Is_X
Upvotes	753
Comments	230
Date	October 28, 2012 1:08 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/127u0q/and_there_we_have_it/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/and-there-we-have-it.1010380 https://theredarchive.com/post/1010380

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