Arguing with a feminist.

Macmee · 2012-12-17T16:59:19+00:00

could you elaborate on the "Women don't have to be paid equal to men, because they don't have to sign up for selective service." because I thought women are paid as much as men, and that the statistics saying woman are underpaid are poor because they compare across job and ignore hours.

DaNiceguy · 2012-12-17T17:01:06+00:00

This isn't surprising, and also a perfect illustration of why MRAs should never ever use the terms "hate group" or "hate speech". These two concepts do not exist except for the purpose of shutting down opponents without debate.

Xenoith · 2012-12-17T17:44:51+00:00

Something that seems to go right over some feminists heads is how one organization somewhere in the world (the SPLC) can label the MRM a "hate group", and somehow that sticks. ONE organization, that's not even any kind of authority on such matters. One. Fucking. Group. That I guarantee you a lot of feminists had never even heard of before.

Idiots.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2012-12-17T17:51:54+00:00

Summarized: I don't have to be sensible because FUCK YOU!!

With logic like that . . .

unexpecteditem · 2012-12-17T19:31:03+00:00

I don't care about intellectual honesty when arguing with a member of a hate group

a.k.a. me, because I'm an MRA.

This is an age-old technique of labelling. You don't argue with it. Just ignore it. Nobody should be persuaded by it.

Even if the MRM is a hate group and you are a member, to say that it follows that any one of your conclusions is false is to commit a fallacy so old in the history of logic it has a name in Latin. It's called an ad hominem.

Simply explain to him that he will merely diminish himself in your estimation by committing that fallacy.

Besides, he's already told you he's not interested in intellectual honesty. There's not much you can do with that.

DerpaNerb · 2012-12-17T18:31:27+00:00

I don't care about intellectual honesty when arguing with a member of a hate group

And that's when any person who has one ounce of intelligence would realize this person is a retard.

Fucking Hitler could make the same arguments we are making and it would (and it should) not make a single bit of difference to the validity of the argument.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2012-12-17T19:00:49+00:00

I don't care about intellectual honesty when arguing with a member of a hate group

Circular logic considering it requires intellectual dishonesty to arrive at that conclusion.

iongantas · 2012-12-17T20:26:32+00:00

Intellectual honesty is a matter of personal integrity, not a debate tactic. If he doesn't care about intellectual honesty, he just has no integrity.

2012-12-17T17:34:54+00:00

He clearly also does not care about intellectual honesty when using the term "hate group."

RedditBlueit · 2012-12-17T17:23:29+00:00

The use of "hate group" is designed to shut down argument, by shaming you. If you choose to continue the conversation, there are two good tactics -

Name it: "You're using hate group to shut down discussion. That's usually an indication that you have no counterargument, but are unwilling to change your mind or accept evidence contrary to your world view."
Reflect it: "Yes, MRA's hate the fact that sexist views are acceptable when held by feminists. Why do you feel it's acceptable to treat groups of people differently on the basis of gender?"

Graped_in_the_mouth · 2012-12-18T19:01:12+00:00

Men have reproductive rights. They can choose not to put their dick in a woman without a condom. That's a reproductive right. By contrast, many women can't choose to NOT have a dick put in them. Because, you know, there's something called rape.

Furthermore, when you discuss "male reproductive rights", what you ACTUALLY mean is having a right over a woman's body - since that's where reproduction fucking takes place. You do NOT have a right over someone elses body, and for the love of Christ, please remember that it's not YOUR health at risk when there's going to be a baby born, merely your money, which you could have avoided by not shooting your seed inside her.

This is not a symmetrical situation, and male reproductive rights don't mean even remotely the same thing as female reproductive rights. This is a strawman, and either you know it, or you're too dumb to bother with. When someone can shove a dick in YOU, and force YOU to have a child that might endanger your health and affect your body for 9 months, you can complain. Until then, unless you got "spermjacked", you had your reproductive rights, and chose not to exercise them.

While the guy you're "debating" behaved like a tool, your underlying point is entirely ridiculous.

Stephen_Morgan · 2012-12-17T18:31:07+00:00

Not caring about honesty is a good sign of a hate group. Not caring about honesty when dealing with a specific group makes it clear that's the group you hate.

Ted8367 · 2012-12-17T18:35:51+00:00

Arguing with a feminist

is like wrestling with a pig

Eulabeia · 2012-12-17T18:32:16+00:00

What's hilarious is they can't even explain how the MRM is a hate group. Ask them to define the characteristics of a hate group and give examples of how the MRM demonstrates that it is one. They won't even come close to giving you an answer without lying their ass off. Hate group is just a term they fling when they have no other arguments left, similar to "misogynist" and "patriarchy". It's also funny because that term way more accurately describes feminism anyway.

cabin5 · 2012-12-17T19:00:30+00:00

If he was trying to say that 'women don't have to be paid equal to men, because they don't have to sign up for selective service' is a legal 'right' or a penalty written into law giving men a right over women, it's not.

That would have been my first question- what rights do men have that women don't (in the U.S.)? There isn't any - there is no area anywhere under any Federal or state law or any other that gives men a right that women don't have in area of life. If there actually was, Feminists would be screaming bloody murder over it!

LDM312 · 2012-12-18T01:14:41+00:00

I've been told I should be castrated because I believe that when a person is in a relationship, they owe the other person the time of day to hear what their partner's opinions and feelings are.

HoundDogs · 2012-12-18T07:41:13+00:00

Lets call this whole "Hate group" nonsense exactly what it is: A giant fucking cop-out. A built in excuse that gives them some kind of pseudo-moral trump card to get out of having to make an argument.

The exact same thing goes for the morons that accuse you of "Mainsplaining".

Don't fall for that shit. Demand reasonable arguments, and if they can't deliver, put a feather in your cap and move on because the only thing that one has left is personal attacks.

Amunium · 2012-12-18T08:31:05+00:00

it's fair, because men have rights in other areas

So he thinks equal rights means an equal number of rights, but not necessarily the same ones?

Hand the guy a dictionary.

Blindocide · 2012-12-17T17:13:42+00:00

If anyone has paid attention, but I doubt you guys have because nobody cares about little old me, this is the same guy I argued with over in this thread

yeah, I know. I didn't do the best I could have done. I was coming at the guy with an open mind, thinking that maybe the MRA's were wrong and there was something to this feminism business. So when I feigned stupidity it was me trying not to confirmation bias from the info you guys previously gave me.

Now I know that perhaps that was a futile exercise.

Blindocide · 2012-12-17T19:35:09+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Bobsutan · 2012-12-17T22:32:23+00:00

This is what happens when you try to "debate" an ideologue who's facts come from faith. People like him regard feminism as a type of faith system, nothing more.

PartTimeBadman · 2012-12-17T17:24:13+00:00

You made the mistake of being civil with someone who clearly isn't civilized. I think a distinction can be made between feminists and 'men who feel they ought to be feminists to impress women.' He sounds like the latter.

DavidByron · 2012-12-17T22:02:39+00:00

This is about as good a result as you can get when arguing with a feminist. You're letting them show their true colors to other people reading. I know it can be frustrating but you did good.

Blindocide · 2012-12-17T21:03:31+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Graped_in_the_mouth · 2012-12-17T20:09:29+00:00

I don't care about intellectual honesty when arguing with a member of a hate group

Typical liberal retard who thinks that his self righteous beliefs are above facts integrity and intellectual honesty.

rightsbot · 2012-12-17T16:52:19+00:00

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Riesea · 2012-12-17T18:43:53+00:00

Never argue with one's belief. It never goes anywhere. You'll have a better chance of telling kids no monsters under the bed.

cronus85 · 2012-12-17T22:36:08+00:00

Not being from the U.S. Could someone explain the point about having to sign up for selective service? I don't understand this reference.

typhonblue · 2012-12-18T00:21:46+00:00

men have rights in other areas

What definition of "rights" are these people using?

In many countries, including the US, men don't have citizenship "rights" they have citizenship privileges in exchange for citizenship responsibilities.

mikesteane · 2012-12-19T08:10:26+00:00

Just laugh. It's the best medicine, and the most likely thing to have a positive effect on someone like this.

PrinceCuntSmasher · 2012-12-17T19:58:38+00:00

I thought that was a female you were arguing with at first...

Blindocide · 2012-12-18T07:23:20+00:00

[permanently deleted]

EvilsSufferable · 2012-12-17T20:07:07+00:00

Was this guy actually a feminist, or are you assuming? It sounds like you were arguing with an asshole, not a feminist. You could try finding a new group of people instead of just your circle of friends. Some things I like to do/have done:

Spend time in a library educating yourself with scholarly articles on ALL topics that relate to right's, law, psychology, biology, anthropology, geography, history, logic and reason, and read opposing views and attempt to refute them with what you have learned and logic you can employ. Half of what you learn should be what you have thought of yourself by digesting facts.
Actually read reports put out by organizations. Make sure the organization isn't biased. Learn how reports are compiled, published, etc. Skim the unimportant parts, but read the damn thing yourself. Remember the name. Cite your sources like you learned in school. Learn how propaganda is spread by governments and attempt to see through it if the report is through governments.
Argue from the viewpoint of a feminist too see how they think.
Learn how to make hypotheticals that serve a purpose.
Don't believe something on face value without investigation. Use facts here and elsewhere as a starting point, not a conclusion. Use only base facts, not opinions or emotions until you are solid in your facts. Listen to others' interpretations of facts. Intelligent people, mind you.
Draw parallels to how the worst of feminism operates to how MRAs operate. 40-50% of the crap on a r/mensrights is emotion-based, illogical crap posted by idiots. (which is way so many people look down on us, they only see the bad and not the real issues.)
Write down every argument you make FOR men's rights. Try to tear down down and refute every modicum you possibly can. If you can see how silly your own arguments are (and we discuss a few everyday that are badbadbad) then you can see how others see you.
If you really don't like feminism write down every argument made by a feminist and then figure out how to solve the problem without feminism. Although men can be raped, that doesn't change the huge disproportion of rape not caused by drinking too much and wearing a skirt. Yes, definitions are fucked right now to include many things that aren't rape. But why do you think so? When does something become rape? Be specific and don't say "rape victims" if you mean women who are genuine sluts and DGAF. (I'm going to use the recent anniversary of Pearl Harbor as an example) It's the difference between saying "When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor" and "When Hirohito/Yamamoto attacked Pearl Harbor". It makes you sound a hell of a lot more educated.
Decide, truly, if this is going to be something you occasionally bring up when you feel safe to or if you're going to actually devote a large amount of your time doing for what will be the rest of your life.
Stop watching TV and movies. Stop listening to love songs, and stop listening to the radio unless it is classical/jazz. It rots your brain. It is the mental equivalent of eating Big Macs and french fries everyday. No, seriously. No. Really. Stop. A fat guy covered in grease doesn't walk into a gym and tell people how to be healthy because no one will take him seriously.
Don't let it eat you alive, and please enjoy life while you can. One form of propaganda is to only show the worst of the truth. We do that to ourselves here and if you don't know why that is done, you will only learn to hate.

There are window shoppers, consumers, employees, and store owners. Reddit is the window. You need to find a way to own the store. You won't get there by getting pissy and only hating feminism. Not every feminist is an idiot, but MRAs are not some group of enlightened individuals who have all the answers. Most important to note, though: If someone ignores the oppression of men by the rich and powerful to solidify their belief in the Patriarchy, they are not a feminist but rather a bigot whose tools are Women's Rights and male oppression. And denouncing Feminism because of a few idiots is no different.

Only then will this damn movement get the spring cleaning it sorely needs.

AnnArchist · 2012-12-18T01:28:59+00:00

When people write out 'red flag' all subsequent points are only half as interesting and credible

Hypersapien · 2012-12-17T23:44:13+00:00

That's a bad argument, connecting wages to selective service. Women should be paid as much as men given the type of job, amount of experience, and hours worked.

giegerwasright · 2012-12-18T07:39:04+00:00

Congratulations, sir. You have met your first pandering faggot assed mangina. They don't think. They do what they're told.

2012-12-17T21:57:24+00:00

If you have hate in your heart let it out Amen!

Jyasu · 2012-12-17T22:43:30+00:00

Women don't have to be paid equal to men, because they don't have to sign up for selective service.

Why did you say this? Thats a horrible argument.

WhereSeagullsDare · 2012-12-18T02:51:10+00:00

lol this never happened

Title	Arguing with a feminist.
Author	Blindocide
Upvotes	121
Comments	202
Date	December 17, 2012 4:50 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/14zzzw/arguing_with_a_feminist/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/arguing-with-a-feminist.1006385 https://theredarchive.com/post/1006385

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