Do MRAs have a victim mentality?

BlindPelican · 2014-03-16T18:40:13+00:00

Here's the issue in a nutshell, at least as I see it.

The MRA isn't an ideology. We don't have an equivalent to "patriarchy" or "privilege". It's an amalgam of issues, both social and legal.

You can see it evident in a lot of places: "women and children first", the Duluth Model, the Tender Years doctrine, "creep" shaming, a complete lack of reproductive rights for men, men being denied Domestic Violence resources despite being ~50% of the victims of IPV, no protection against genital mutilation, sparse funding for male cancers, being excluded from public awareness programs, having procedural due process rights ignored when accused, etc.

Once you can get your head around that, it's pretty simple to recognize the need for some group to step up and try to enact some change.

The issue with Feminism is really quite simple - the structural institution of feminism seeks to undermine addressing these issues. Whether that's via pushing public policies that exclude (or in some cases demonize) men (e.g. the Tender Years doctrine) to actively keeping the issues out of the public eye (e.g. shutting down proposed Men's Studies programs in Australia, derailing attempts to have a National Council on Men and Boys, pushing the Duluth Model, or even outright activism against people like Warren Farrell or Erin Pizzey).

If they left us alone and just allowed these issues to be addressed, or even, god forbid, joined us in incorporating these issues into a common agenda, there would be zero friction with feminism at all. They could believe whatever they wanted to academically and that would be ok.

Every MRA here is an MRA for a reason. You might be better served, and learn more, by asking them why. You'll get stories of guys who have had their children taken from them after a divorce. Young men whose lives have been ruined by a false accusation. Battered men who had no help available to them. Women who have seen the men in their lives treated like crap by the legal system and sometimes society in general.

I think that would answer your question as to why you should be an MRA quite nicely.

JakeDDrake · 2014-03-16T17:31:32+00:00

Not all MRAs feel that men are victims as a class of people, as such. I believe I speak for many people here when I say that, while we often show examples of men being disproportionately affected by a given issue (whether or not it's directly caused by Feminism, Society or Government Policy), it wouldn't be fair to suggest that every man is at his core a victim. Especially not at the hands of another class of people. At the hands of a political ideology, however...

I myself have been circumcised for purely cosmetic reasons on my parents' behalf, I've been sexually assaulted and endured all the jeers and jokes that come with it when it's a lady who does it (despite her status as a knife-wielding, meth-smoking wackjob), I'm without steady work due to my Depression and artistic skillset, and I'm told by some that all of this is my fault because I'm not tough enough to put up with life. Despite this, I don't see myself as a victim. I would in fact say that it was the MRM that helped me to dismiss the notion.

Here's a better explanation I made in another thread about that, if you choose to read.

I've been victimized by people, and my life has been described as difficult by some, but it doesn't necessarily mean that all of it (or perhaps even any of it) was caused by a systematic effort to keep me down as a member of a class.

viewing men as oppressed by women and feminism is actually a left-wing attitude

There's no denying that Feminism has worked against the best interests of men in the past. The National Organization for Women in the US has fought long and hard to keep Shared Custody of children as the default verdict from being implemented in divorce hearings. They don't speak for all Feminists of course, but it is demonstrable evidence that some are using their political leverage to solicit an outcome from policymakers in DC. And one could easily argue that their intentions for doing so run no deeper than "men are often an unhealthy influence on children", which would be a very hard position to back up with evidence. One has to look not at statements, but at actions and intentions. (And at raw data they produce! Always!)

Well, hopefully you decide to stay. If not, the door's always open, should you decide to return in the future.

Your_Bacon_Counselor · 2014-03-16T17:52:46+00:00

No, we just recognise the systemic inequalities that feminism fights to maintain. (If not erect)

bashar_speaks · 2014-03-16T19:52:34+00:00

Sometimes, but it's usually just a phase. It's sort of like part of the 5 stages of grief, the "Anger" phase:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model

MRAs are often people who have just stepped out from the warm coziness of "Denial".

typhonblue · 2014-03-16T18:14:34+00:00

women have structural power over men or something.

We do.

volkswgn · 2014-03-16T18:42:41+00:00

This question is so dumb. The MHRM wouldn't even exist if it weren't for feminism being such a dominant social narrative.

2014-03-16T17:04:39+00:00

We don't say that men are oppressed.

We are pointing out many instances where men are disadvantaged, but we don't call it "oppressed".

Bartab · 2014-03-16T20:46:34+00:00

The impression I have got of MRAs is that you often speak as if men are oppressed by feminism and women, as if women have structural power over men or something. This is something which is even more the case with MGTOW who have even more of a tendency to portray men as the victims.

Men are the victims of the legal system, and women are treated advantageously by the system and none of this requires the woman to be in charge.

You said elsewhere:

The whole idea that if some people do better than others, that the state has to do something about it, is just absurd.

This is certainly in agreement with my own view, after the realization that the State is the cause of many people doing better than others and that the State does have to do something about that.

PeteTheFirst · 2014-03-16T22:02:00+00:00

The impression I have got of MRAs is that you often speak as if men are oppressed by feminism and women, as if women have structural power over men or something. This is something which is even more the case with MGTOW who have even more of a tendency to portray men as the victims.

I think the key word here is structured. SJWs would have you believe, for instance, that racism doesn't matter unless it's backed up by something bigger and institutional (which is why they argue that racism against the "privileged" is impossible) - MRAs from my experience tend to focus on individual actions and their effects on other individuals.

So while there are indeed some MRAs who do have an unhelpful victim mentality, a lot of what you're seeing is actually just documenting individual cases of sexism against men, and then pointing out that if the genders were reversed, the "structures" of the media, politics etc would be far more outspoken about them.

I like to use the term "Violence against women" as an example of this. Why are women seen as deserving some kind of special protection from violence above and beyond that which men should get? Why does society view a woman's safety as more important than a man's, and why is it that violence that happens to a woman is seen as a more horrifying and serious incident than violence that happens to a man?

Note my use of words like "incident" and "a" - as I say, my experience is that MRAs are focused on these individual cases rather than on trying to paint some gigantic conspiracy theory like feminists do when they abuse the word "patriarchy". This is one of the reasons I find MRA arguments a lot easier to be sympathetic towards.

It's like the difference between someone telling their story of how a vaccine made them sick and asking for support, and someone telling their story of how a vaccine made them sick and this is evidence of a vast cover up about vaccines. It's lot easier to empathize with the first person in this example in my view, simply because their story is more personal.

edtastic · 2014-03-16T19:32:11+00:00

The impression I have got of MRAs is that you often speak as if men are oppressed by feminism and women, as if women have structural power over men or something.

I rarely ever see the word "oppressed" unless it's referencing feminist thought. Why don't you search the world oppressed, oppress, and oppression in this sub and I'll bet you won't find but a handful of references out of dozens referring to men as oppressed. The word has been abused by feminists who have taken it upon themselves to label the well educated middle class white women among the most "oppressed" peoples in this nation there by making a mockery of the very social justice they take so much narcissistic pride in. The broadening of oppression to mean just about anything is their doing because that's what people who aren't oppressed must do to appear as legitimate victims.

Your reference to structural power is telling because it ignorantly assumes a half century old gender lobbying empire that touches nearly every campus in the country with it's own department is some how devoid of structural power. There is no male equivalent enterprise and even if there are more men in political office it has not translated into a pro male lobbying effort. Instead quite the opposite has happened. Men pass laws to strip other men of their rights in order to protect women, because feminist's women's lobbying has little or no male focused opposition. Men's Rights is tiny, Women's Rights is huge. Women's Rights has the structural power.

This is problematic for me because I think the victim mentality is totally unhelpful, and its kind of like a 'woe me I'm so oppressed' attitude (which is typically something feminists do). If you are focused on being a victim of the 'matriarchy' you wont ever self improve.

What's problematic is the inability of this society to see male victims or male victimization because feminists through their endless misinformation campaigns keep insisting they don't exist in substantial numbers. That's not a victim mentality, it's a reality check. The woe is me attitude doesn't seem to trouble you when it comes to feminists taking Harvard educated women and presenting them as victims of oppression to the world. It doesn't seem to bother you when they come up with concepts like 'eye rape' or define sexual harassment as telling someone they have a nice dress. In comparison men can very well claim 'woe is me' simply being burdened with accommodating these hyper sensitive narcissist let alone their own pressing issues that are being ignored.

Also, viewing men as oppressed by women and feminism is actually a left-wing attitude. The idea that some groups have structural power over (and oppress) other groups is very much based in marxism. This is why I view MRAs and MGTOW as inherently left wing.

I think the Right wing needs to get the hell out of the stone age and stop trying to corral the whole world into an outdated morally bankrupt model based on an idealistic solutions that have been tried and failed. These human rights struggles solve social problems and bring justice, in the case of feminism it went over board.

If you don't have a taste for fighting for peoples human or civil rights then leave social justice alone because that's what Men's Rights is whether you like it or not. It's seeking justice in terms of fair treatment for some group in society that has effectively been marginalized for whatever reason. In men's case it is their own predisposition towards giving women their all even to their own detriment while being manipulated by a powerful women's lobby that knows no bounds when it comes to expectations.

Oddly enough the very nation of this social justice cause would seem to favor the right as it's one that demands moderation rather than fight to maximize returns for the aggrieved group, but if those on the right can't handle all the lefty sounding lingo they might as well pack it in. We are pushing back against a left wing idea while employing some left wing ideas, and a somewhat right wing frame work when it comes to setting expectations for all parties involved. Chuck full of nuance.

Perhaps I have got the wrong impression of MRAs, so if I am mistaken feel free to correct me. I'm (sort of) libertarian and anti-feminist, but I am reluctant to accept MRA or MGTOW. Of course I do not accept the 'Red Pill', since that ideology is just as bad as feminism, if not worse. Still I'm not sure how to go about getting a more fleshed out position. So tell me, am I mistaken and why should I be an MRA?

I only looked at the Red Pill a few times and I can't stand thirsty dudes whining about not getting any. That's not a social justice issue as far as I'm concerned anymore than the big girl who's upset the guys she wants don't thinks she's sexy. MRA's end game probably looks like making feminism less misandric and establishing itself as a bulwark against it going to extremes in the future while fighting the lack of compassion for men and boys which is at the root of so many problems. With that compassion comes a desire to deal with problem we've been ignoring, to the extent they are ignored MRA's need to raise awareness about them.

The big difference between feminist and MRA's is MRA's don't aim to assign identities(or lack there of) to men or women. People have to figure their lives out on their own. Equality isn't telling boys to change diapers and girls to change a tire. It's letting them choose what role they want to play and accepting that choice. It's far more of a right wing flavor of with personal choice and responsibility being the core principal rather than making everyone equal through elaborate social engineering schemes.

IcarusBurning · 2014-03-16T16:28:19+00:00

Some do, and some don't. I think there are plenty of articles posted in this sub that are just the way you describe, and some that talk about the perception of men in society without invoking the female boogeyman.

I think you'd do well not to classify the entire MRM as one way or another, just as I (and I would hope you) don't classify all feminists as one way or another.

unbannable9412 · 2014-03-16T17:02:22+00:00

as if women have structural power over men or something.

The ability to destroy another person's life on a whim with a mere accusation that will be backed up with the full force of the legal system.

What might you call that...

This is problematic

Problematic.

Code word for "this bothers me, it shouldn't objectively, but my feelings on the matter mean more than rational thoughts."

The idea that some groups have structural power over (and oppress) other groups is very much based in marxism.

Perhaps, but societal oppression is not some magical invented concept that doesn't exist like unicorns.

Jews throughout the history of Europe culminating in the holocaust, black people in virtually all European societies, the Irish under British rule, Indians under British rule, etc.

All that said women are not oppressed, men are not oppressed.

There are certainly specific situations and places where men or women, typically men and women, are systematically oppressed, but neither of the 3 billion people male or female are as a group oppressed.

VortexCortex · 2014-03-16T21:01:40+00:00

The impression I have got of MRAs is that you often speak as if men are oppressed by feminism and women, as if women have structural power over men or something.

The impression I have of you is that you don't know shit about the MRM. Feminism is concerned with power structures -- A bunch of bogus claims with zero evidence to back up. MRM is concerned with the actual laws and benefits concerning men and women.

This is something which is even more the case with MGTOW who have even more of a tendency to portray men as the victims.

I wouldn't call out MGTOWs as having a victim complex. Instead I would say they are looking at biological and social causes of sexism against men and women. They recognize the undeniable prevalent predisposition for the provisioning of protection and benefit of women and children at the expense of predominantly men. They reject male sacrifice and instead espouce individual autonomy and self awareness -- Harnessing the instinctual (read: biological; evolutionarily imposed) drives instead of letting themselves be manipulated by these emotions or the females that typically exploit them. I have known a few gay MGTOWs too. They aren't against women, but the behaviors of both men and women unchecked by rationality that do tend towards traditionalist and chivalrous ends.

This is problematic for me because I think the victim mentality is totally unhelpful, and its kind of like a 'woe me I'm so oppressed' attitude (which is typically something feminists do). If you are focused on being a victim of the 'matriarchy' you wont ever self improve.

We're not focused on being victims. We're focused on helping the actual victims that do exist, and rationally allocating concern and benefit based on actual prevalence and proportion of victims and perpetrators.

For instance: It's no secret that the rape of men is prevalent, yet feminists in the CDC have been redefining rape to exclude male victims and female perpetrators from being covered by the term Rape because it is a term people take seriously. Most rapists have been abused/raped themselves (it's an abuse cycle), these feminists are also helping to create more female victims of rape. We expose the hypocrisy, and attempt to give context to rape and abuse statistics by comparing men and women as fairly similar in prevalence; Then we ask "Why the fuck aren't there any homes for battered men when there are so many exclusively for women?"

Indeed there are hundreds of government programs that exclusively benefit women, and few if any that benefit men. It is not that we claim all men to be victims, just that the men who are victims are being ignored, and there are Feminists to blame for much of this literal ignorance of men's issues.

Also, viewing men as oppressed by women and feminism is actually a left-wing attitude. The idea that some groups have structural power over (and oppress) other groups is very much based in marxism. This is why I view MRAs and MGTOW as inherently left wing.

You keep conflating "women and feminism" that's fucking asinine. Most women are not Feminists. The MRM has many female supporters. Feminism is an ideology -- One that is flawed and based on confirmaiton bias: Made an assumption then went looking for facts to back them up instead of doing samplings then looking at the data. It's also wrong on so many historical accounts it's fucking ridiculous to put any stock in.

I'm anti-feminist, but pro-Women's Rights and support Men's Rights as subsets of Human Rights which are in frequent need of specialized consideration. I'm not anti-women. Women's Rights is not owned by any ideology, least of all feminism. Get that through your thick skull, you SJWs and foolish feminists DO NOT own Women or Women's Rights Issues; And you certainly DO NOT get to pigeon-hole Men's Rights either.

Perhaps I have got the wrong impression of MRAs, so if I am mistaken feel free to correct me.

You've been corrected. I doubt that it will matter though, you sound like one grade A stubborn git. I bet you'll believe any easy-to believe lies that agree with your persecution complex, since that's what you've done. That's the difference between you and me. I don't believe in ANY ideology. I advocate for the rights of Men and Women and Children on the basis of Fairness on a case by case basis using my sentient mind, not some prescribed ideological narrative of oppressor / oppression. You're trying to frame the MRM as the converse of Feminism, but the MRM has no ideological component, so it just doesn't work. Men's Rights is about the Rights of Men. Full Stop. No persecution complex, just evidence of inequality, collecting examples of hypocrisy and double standards, plans and actions to correct the issues we can, and opposition to those who oppose us (namely Feminists and other SJW bullshit based in ideologies).

I'm (sort of) libertarian and anti-feminist, but I am reluctant to accept MRA or MGTOW. Of course I do not accept the 'Red Pill', since that ideology is just as bad as feminism, if not worse. Still I'm not sure how to go about getting a more fleshed out position. So tell me, am I mistaken and why should I be an MRA?

You shouldn't be doing ANY rights activism at all. You're still too fucking ignorant. Go take a history lesson first and unlearn the false narrative of "pre-60's women had no power until feminism came along". You're so full of bias and demonstrable ignorance of reality that you wouldn't be doing ANYONE a favor by being on their side. Learn what the Null Hypothesis is and learn to call bullshit any time a claim is made that does not refute its null hypothesis -- When you've seen "because" or "this causes" or "it associates X with Y", "The Group X thinks Y" etc. without evidence to back it up your bullshit detector hasn't gone off, and you haven't gone looking for evidence that confirms or refutes the issue before forming your opinions. That's how you wound up at such a flawed opinion of the MRM -- You have demonstrated a basic lack of ability to fact check.

I'm not going to try to convince you of anything. I don't care if you get your head screwed on straight or not. If you do then you'll realize that Men's Rights and Women's Rights are Human Rights and that alone is enough reason to advocate for them, fool.

warspite88 · 2014-03-17T01:45:50+00:00

MRA's speak of human rights that are denied them as well as the vast misandry policies in western culture. Men are victims of misandry and discrimination more so than women ever were that sparked feminism. Roll your eyes all you want but the growing mens movement will wake more people up each year to just how sick and hateful feminism is as a movement and how institutions fell for it hook line and sinker.

the key however for MRA is to not dwell on the very real victim state of men but to fix our society for the better for the future for both men and women.

keep in mind, feminism is a hateful movement, not all feminists are evil, most of the leaders of it are and many others just sheep that dont quite get the big picture. women are not all at fault just as many men are at fault for the current state of affairs. so while MRA rightfully can claim victim status of oppression, i hope it takes a different direction than feminism and turns change into a positive for everyone not just some men.

the world wont tolerate a mens movement that targets women like feminism targeted men. so i think you will see a gradual change for the better for both genders.

double-happiness · 2014-03-16T22:46:51+00:00

I think the victim mentality is totally unhelpful, and its kind of like a 'woe me I'm so oppressed' attitude

The point is to 'uplift' one another, recognising disadvantage, inequaility, and deprivation wherever it occurs, and constantly striving to correct it. Personally I believe it is also important to always try to support ourselves. You can't help anyone else if you don't at least try to look after yourself!

The impression I have got of MRAs is that you often speak as if men are oppressed by feminism and women [...] Perhaps I have got the wrong impression of MRAs

I think you have got it totally wrong there, it's not a question of accusing women of oppressing us, it's rather a question of saying, "look, I shouldn't have to sacrifice myself or provide for you, and I'm not going to do that any more." That's how I see it anyway.

TrouserTorpedo · 2014-03-17T00:35:09+00:00

My response would be, in general, no.

Those MRAs who feel like victims of the system generally have been victims of the system (for example, they have been wrongfully accused and taken through the courts or they have lost their children). Thankfully, I don't feel like I am the one suffering from problems that face men, though I do feel like I am at risk of that happening.

Most MRAs do not use the word "oppress" because it puts people in a state of mind where certain groups are always victims, rather than recognising the fact that different groups have many, many different problems.

2014-03-17T01:22:48+00:00

I think when MRA's claim that men are victimized, they are pointing at a person or institution which is doing something that has a very real and immediate consequence.

They don't tend to blame others for their own behavior, and they don't tend blame women or "the matriarchy" for the general behavior of men.

There are exceptions of course.

hflol · 2014-03-16T16:24:23+00:00

I don't at least. Most MRAs I know just recognize that both sexes have their fair share of issues, and feminism largely ignores the problems men face, whereas MRAs see both. That's been my experience anyway.

rightsbot · 2014-03-16T16:22:17+00:00

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robesta · 2014-03-16T19:26:59+00:00

I'm very pro men's rights and the first thing I thought when I started reading this sub was that it had a soft, victim mentality. Very much a turn off to me.

DougDante · 2014-03-16T16:57:19+00:00

Those are the sort of questions you'll have to judge for yourself through observation.

Please check out the FAQ.

slideforlife · 2014-03-16T18:34:42+00:00

theories on structure are just models to explain individual circumstances. it doesn't really matter if "structural oppression" exists or not. what's important is to prevent the exploitation of undue advantage as each instance of it comes up. the theories just allow a quicker way of identifying them.

2014-03-16T18:09:29+00:00

"Do you think the Jews are whiny? I mean, can you imagine a Jew insisting they're somehow oppressed? They own most of the banks, most of the media, and control financial and political interests of entire countries... but still they go on whining about how they are somehow victims here... "

Yeah, neo-feminism. It's kinda' like that.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2014-03-17T04:16:48+00:00

Asking for more consistency with respect to agency for both sexes is the exact opposite of a victim mentality.

Bla34112 · 2014-03-17T11:33:04+00:00

Look, are men oppressed by women? No.

Feminist always say: "MRAs think men are oppressed by women..."

No we don't. Feminists think of everything in terms of oppression, and because of that them listening to us saying: "Actually, right now, men have it worse" Is them hearing: "Actually, men are oppressed by women"

No

"Feminism as an interest group has too much established power within the government and culture and is enacting legislation (and spreading paranoia) trying to give women an unfair leg-up at the expense of men."

That's what we're saying.

Steampunk_Moustache · 2014-03-17T12:39:00+00:00

Pretty much everyone is a victim of something. Feminism blames 'Patriarchy' - an absurd concept that completely ignores women's agency in the world. The MRM doesn't come up with a single word to encompass the traditional gender roles of our species, but simply states that, as intelligent as we are, it should be perfectly possible to ignore our primitive or religion-fueled impulses about what we should allow and expect from others in the world around us, and ditch the concept of gender roles.

To be a feminist is to inherently blame men for everything wrong in the world, and to inherently believe women have no control in the world.

Juan_Golt · 2014-03-17T18:30:00+00:00

If you were born in Salem in the 1600s and knew that the witch trials were wrong. What were your options? You could leave and refuse to participate in a paranoid society (MGTOW). You could try to fight to change the way the society thinks (MRA). Or you could simply study the failings of society with selfish indifference (TRP).

There is something of a schism among many MRAs. Many arrive here from a right wing libertarian bent. The idea that protecting 'women and children' is just a convenient means to expand government intrusion. Others are from more of a liberal/progressive perspective, and simply want the government's programs expanded to also cover men.

MattClark0994 · 2014-03-16T18:01:52+00:00

22,000 word list of mens issues.

Yes women have power over men (the power to falsely accuse through bogus restraining orders, false rape, or false domestic violence). And the other part of your post is true, most of the people (dummies) here are left wing and probably voted for obama twice.

knowless · 2014-03-16T22:35:26+00:00

All i can do is describe my experience, you can choose to deny it, most do.

SweetieKat · 2014-03-16T16:36:49+00:00

Thank you!!! I'm really getting tired of men -- particularly white men -- getting upset and complaining about how I treat them.

Title	Do MRAs have a victim mentality?
Author	Mouon
Upvotes	15
Comments	128
Date	March 16, 2014 4:20 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/20k3sy/do_mras_have_a_victim_mentality/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/do-mras-have-a-victim-mentality.1002695 https://theredarchive.com/post/1002695

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