Double Standards | MensRights

[deleted] · 2021-03-21T00:04:06+00:00

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[–]auMatech 18 points19 points20 points 5 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

For starters, they have successfully managed to sanitise their own history, allowing themselves to justify their acts of terrorism under the guise of "revolution".

Suffragette Mary Leigh poured petrol over the carpets of a crowded theatre, set fire to it and then detonated a bomb.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/10/suffragettes-did-commit-terrorist-acts

In the years leading up to the First World War, the suffragettes conducted a ferocious and prolonged bombing campaign across the whole of the United Kingdom; planting improvised explosive devices (or IEDs) in places as varied as Westminster Abbey, St Paul's Cathedral, the Bank of England, the National Gallery, railway stations and many other locations.

And

They also invented the letter bomb; designed to maim or kill those with whom they disagreed.

And it's important to note:

Those planning the bombings were not lone wolves or mavericks; they were being directed and supported by the suffragette leadership.

Many people claim that the suffragettes won women the vote, when in fact it was the opposite:

There had been every chance before the bombings began that a private members' bill to introduce the vote for women might succeed in getting through Parliament.

But few politicians wished to be seen giving in to terrorism and, as a result, this bill failed even to gain a second reading.

After the failure of the bill, it was plain that the suffragette bombers were harming the struggle for women's civil rights far more than they were aiding it.

https://news.sky.com/story/women-would-have-got-the-vote-earlier-if-not-for-suffragette-terrorists-11227772

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[–]auMatech 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Do you mean the suffragettes or actual suffrage?

Suffrage is the right to vote in political elections or referendums.

While women's suffrage is something that is generally well known, men's suffrage is not. Here is a link to a well sourced post on this subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/bz2hc4/on_universal_manhood_suffrage/

If you are referring to the suffragettes, then it's a group of women, led by political activists under a banner of women's voting rights. While their true intentions were nebulous at best, their teachings founded what we know now as feminism. With quite successful efforts to cover up and sanitise the horrible acts of terorrism, and later, attempted murder (see: Andy Warhol, Valerie Solanas, the author of the SCUM Manifesto), not many people question the dogmatised history taught by gender studies or dictated by feminist literature these days.

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[–]Showmemoonlight -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for taking the time to write that. It's a very good question. I've had this question before, both concerning egalitarianism and humanism. Feminism is not called humanism or egalitarianism because feminism, humanism and egalitarianism are three distinct theories.

I'm sure you know this already and I appreciate that you didn't ask, but humanism has about as much to do with gender equality as the Spice Girls have to do with paprika. Humanism is a philosophical belief system based on the principle that people's spiritual and emotional needs can be satisfied without following a God or a religion. Who knew the Spice Girls would be mentioned in the same paragraph as humanism, paha!

You also evidently know this (this is to provide context for other readers), but egalitarianism is a form of political philosophy that advocates that all human beings are fundamentally equal and therefore equally entitled to resources and the idea that all humans are equal in fundamental worth or moral status, but it does not address gender equality, or any other kind of inequality. How can we tackle inequality without addressing inequality?

In an ideal world, we would all call ourselves egalitarians, but unfortunately we live in a corrupt world. Women are disproportionately affected by gender inequality and systemic discrimination, so to advocate for egalitarianism would be to try to draw a line in the sand without taking any meaningful action. It wouldn't really fix anything, or dismantle any form of discrimination. We cannot just flick a magic wand and hope for "equality". We will only reach gender equality if we address the specific issues pertaining to gender inequality. It won't be a walk in the park, but no civil rights movement is.

Just like saying "all lives matter" will never dismantle systemic racism, and saying "not all men" will never help to reduce sexual violence towards women, saying that one is an egalitarian will never tackle gender inequality, or any other form of inequality. In fact, all of these examples serve to harm the movements by derailing important conversations and deflecting attention from the victim.

Secondly, I don't see feminist as a bad word. It's a positive term. People often forget that feminism is simply about the belief in social, economic, and political equality of the sexes. The feminists in my life are too busy raising awareness about sexual assault and violence at the hands of men to have any time to focus on mindless misandry.

Going back to my point that egalitarianism doesn't specifically address any other type of discrimination, I would also refuse to call myself egalitarian because I wouldn't want to be complicit in ignoring or benefiting from other forms of discrimination.

Only thing I can interpret from your comment (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that either you think women are not equal to (or superior to) men under the law or you believe the current dictionary definition of feminism which is still not congruent with the words and actions of the movement.

Indeed, I don't just feel this, but women are not equal to men on socioeconomic grounds on a global and local level. The second point is a huge misconception about feminism. Feminism truly is about gender equality, even if you encounter the odd (or frequent) unpleasant feminist. In the UK in the last few years feminism has made upskirting illegal (a huge victory). Worldwide, feminism started an incredibly important discussion with the #metoo movement raising awareness about and allowing women to seek justice for sexual assault. In Saudi Arabia, although women are sadly still the "property" of their male guardian, women were finally given their own passports. Thanks to feminism over the last few years, abortion was legalised in Northern Ireland in October 2019. With the recent attacks on women's rights to body autonomy in the US over the last couple of years, and the fact that globally the gender paygap stood at 60 years to close prior to the pandemic and it's now at 90 years to close, feminism is needed more than ever. Feminism hasn't gone too far; it hasn't gone anywhere near far enough.

Any civil rights movement is not going to be pretty or palatable. You'll come across angry people when they've experienced discrimination for their entire lives, regardless as to the form of discrimination.

[–]rj2029x 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I appreciate your well thought I response. I also appreciate your respect towards my intellect in your response as well. It's refreshing and greatly appreciated.

I do disagree with your assertion that women are still disproportionately affected by gender inequality. I believe systemic discrimination goes both ways at this point, depending on the which areas of society one focuses upon, so I'm not really sure I agree that women are disproportionately receiving the short end of the stick their either. I do agree that people are doing great things around the world to advance cultural traditions into a modern framework based upon humanities rapid sociological and technological development over the past ~60-80 years. I just think the feminist perspective of: everything stems from men hating or wanting to oppress women as the inherent truth of things ignores a lot of relevant historical justification, as well as disregards a lot of the benefits to women that came along with (what we currently consider) the downsides.

An example would from Middle Eastern countries would be Sharia Law. One could look at the women as property and are restricted from free travel. Of course this has a historical justification but it is not relevant today so we'll classify it as bad. Then again women also received mahr, could petition for alimony in marriage, and could divorce their husbands for something as simple as their job being embarrassing and that man would still be expected to pay the mahr plus alimony until that woman died or remarried. It's easy to point out the flaws in anything but to gain true context, they have to balanced against the benefits and justifications.

That said, I'm actually curious about a part of your response and would like to hear your answer to these questions: What does gender equality look like to you? You say that feminists haven't gone far enough. So what is the "finish line" so to speak? How does one know when gender equality has been "achieved"?

[–]Showmemoonlight 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

I appreciate your perspective and that you feel men and women are equally as disadvantaged. As you are presumably a man, you'll obviously be looking at and experiencing the world with a very different perspective to the way I do as a woman. If you've never experienced the world as a woman, how could you possibly understand how distressing and exhausting misogyny is? However, I try not to let my heart sink when I read comments like that because it just highlights how few men are aware of the full reality of misogyny and socioeconomic gender inequality globally. You sound like such a good egg and you're a really lovely man to talk to, so if even you think that women and men are equally as affected by inequality, what hope do women have with getting men who are actually misogynistic to care about the subject?

I know that men face difficult issues that women would never be able to fathom, like being conditioned when growing up not to express any emotion. I'm truly and deeply sorry that you experienced this, and probably still experience it to this day. It is completely unthinkable to me.

I know I'm going to come across in a disagreeable way, but I just cannot fathom how men can acknowledge what I'm about to discuss below and yet still not see that women are disproportionately affected by systemic gender discrimination:

-Across the globe 40% of women of childbearing age live in countries with highly restrictive abortion laws, or with abortion forbidden altogether. In 2018 the UN Human Rights Committee asserted that access to abortion and prevention of maternal mortality are human rights.

-There are countries where it is still incredibly difficult or forbidden for women to vote, such as the Vatican City, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uganda, Kenya, Oman, Qatar, Egypt, Papa New Guinea, Zanzibar and Nigeria. The right to vote is protected by the Human Rights Act under Article 21.

-The Supreme Court started upholding Trump's rules, letting more employers deny contraceptive coverage to women for hormonal contraception and coils/paragards as of July 2020. In 2012, the UN released a statement that contraception is a human right.

-India, Cambodia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Chad, Papa New Guinea, Haiti, Egypt, Guatemala are just a few countries which still deny girls and women the right to an education, with many more making it incredibly difficult. This violates Article 26 of the Human Rights Act, the right to an education.

-In the US, rapists could claim parental rights in Maryland, Alabama, Mississippi, Minnesota, North Dakota, Wyoming and New Mexico until 2018 and 2019 depending on the state.

-In the Arab Republic of Egypt, a married woman “can leave the house only for purposes allowed by law or custom, otherwise she needs her husband’s permission or she loses her right to financial support. Similar laws exist in 16 other countries.

-In 31 countries, women can't have a passport.

-In Israel, a woman needs her husband’s permission to get a divorce.

-A Nigerian husband is permitted to hit his wife, under Section 55 of the Penal Code, for the purposes of “correcting” her.

-97% of young women have been sexually harassed.

-Only 1.5% of rape cases lead to summons or charges. That figure speaks exclusively for the rapes which are reported. Let's be real, most rapes sexual assaults are not reported.

-Women are stoned to death in certain parts of the world.

-At least 200 million women and girls in 31 countries around the world are living with the results of the dangerous practice of female genital mutilation which is often carried out in unsanitary conditions without anesthetic.

Then there's just the general misogyny to contend with. I've had to leave a job before because I couldn't take the disgusting jokes about my cleavage from my male peers, and the vile orders from my male directors that I should flirt with clients. It was so frustrating to get ignored at meetings, only for my male colleague to say precisely the same thing and gain recognition. People (both men and women) often presume I have nothing happening in between the ears because I present and express myself in a hyperfeminine manner.

Worse yet is the incessant harassment. I'm not exaggerating when I say this, but I cannot go on a walk without having men catcall and follow me every single time - and it is a frightening experience every single time because I don't know their intentions and I'm of a small stature. Oh, and going for a walk is the only thing that is allowed at the moment in the UK given the coronavirus restrictions. I've experienced a man chasing me down a quiet street recently which was one of the most terrifying things I have ever experienced. I've also been the victim of a serious, violent sexual assault when I was 19 and the way the police treated me was horrendous. I have so many friends with similar stories. I have female friends who have survived serious domestic abuse. Every single woman I'm friends with experienced men catcalling them when they were children wearing school uniforms.

Is there a part of you after having this conversation that perhaps acknowledges that while men and women face different challenges and difficulties in life, when you juxtapose human rights and socioeconomic discrimination for men and women, so much more progress is needed for women?

That said, I'm actually curious about a part of your response and would like to hear your answer to these questions: What does gender equality look like to you? You say that feminists haven't gone far enough. So what is the "finish line" so to speak? How does one know when gender equality has been "achieved"?

You are the first person who has ever asked me this and I unfortunately don't know. I can't imagine that world, despite how badly it is needed. The best answer I can give is to live in a society as focused on gender equality as Finland. That would be incredible. I would move there in a heartbeat, not just because of their progressive society. Helsinki has splendid beauty and a relaxed pace where life all about the simple pleasures and cheeky kalsarikänni. One day!

What are your reasons for stating that women and men are both equally as disadvantaged, if you don't mind me asking?

[–]rj2029x 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Well I'm not an Men's Rights Activist, so I don't have as many global figures as you do. I automatically have a bit of apprehension with your statement that you have no idea what gender equality looks like because that implies you have no idea when it has gone far enough, that makes sense. What stops it from going too far when I have yet to speak with a feminist that can tell me where the "line in the sand" resides. A mindset like that, speaking generally, has just as much potential to result in an "always looking for the next problem/the work is never done" attitude as it is to result in a "alright folks, we've done it!" attitude. Even the Civil Rights movement had a clear purpose, with an articulatable goal. Equal opportunity access to employment, education, housing, etc. Also equal treatment and rights under the law.

That said, I'll try to give you some examples of the way men are disadvantaged:

- Roughly 2% of the global population is homeless. 70% of those that are homeless are men. Priorities for job programs, education, and other assistance programs go to children then women. Not saying it's necessarily bad, but it is a disadvantage for men.

-The US has no more than 2 domestic violence shelters for men. There are at least 1980 for women. Currently in operation.

- Related to the previous point, according to the US Dept of Justice in 1975. The findings where 1522 women dead due to domestic violence and 1506 men dead due to domestic violence. That was also the year of the first domestic violence survey which showed violence initiated by men 25.7% , women 25.2%, and mutual violence was 49.1%. Yet all Domestic Violence conversations revolve around women being victims and men being perpetrators. Similar numbers bear out in more recent studies as well.

- Most DV hotlines send men to the abuser resources even if they are victims. Plus, as stated above, there are vanishingly few resources to support men who have experienced DV.

- Men are not able to be raped according to the law in the US. Based on the works and research of Mary Koss the CDC does not count male rape by a female perpetrator. So any data on rape that is produced, at least in the US, does not account for men who are raped by women (for the most part.)

- Male reporting of rape is almost impossible in most places since, related to the point above, most law enforcement do not take such claims seriously. I knew one guy that was literally laughed out of the station because some chick raped him while blacked out, no condom, and left him in an alley with his dick out. Me and my buddy took him to the police station, gave a description of the chick (we saw her all over him most of the night), and they literally laughed in his face and told him to go sleep off the "fun" he had. He spent close to a year near suicidal worried about having contracted something or that she was going to pop back up pregnant.

- Male victims of rape are forced to pay child support to their rapists if a child is born of the crime. Even if the man is underage: there's a pretty famous story in the US of a teacher raping a 12 year old, getting pregnant, and having the kid while in prison. Kid had to start paying child support when he turned 18 even though he was never even notified she was pregnant.

- In Middle Eastern countries boys as young as 13 are legally bound to provide for their mothers and sisters should they become widowed or their fathers die. Similar to the mahr which is owed even if the man dies, she gets the rest of her mahr from the estate before even beginning to split it amongst the children.

- 75% of suicides victims are male, yet mental health focus for men is extremely under funded and represented. We may disagree on the whys of that. Based on my lived experience and experience of other men, we have no problems sharing our feelings with each other. Myself, and those I spoke with, all cite far more insults and negativity when sharing our feelings with women than anything else. Being a heterosexual male, personally, that shapes the way I carry myself around the opposite sex. If I am only going to be ridiculed for my emotions, then why would I share them with a woman. Doesn't mean all women, but just like not every man will chase you down a dark street, you are still going to be better safe than sorry when you've experienced the same thing multiple times.

- The US Family Law system is a prime example and one that I have also personally experienced. I believe Family Law in most of the Western world is fairly similar with women initiating the large majority of divorces (usually without cause since the majority of divorce is no-fault at this point), they win the majority of custody, and they are not punished for making proven false claims about marital rape, domestic violence, child molestation, child abuse, etc against their spouses. To the point that it is a well known tactic that lawyers actually suggest to their clients when they know their case may be weak. State laws that put a time limit on paternity challenges, which means men who are tricked into raising another man's child (easy to do in marriage since paternity is automatic when a couple is married) has anywhere from 1-3 years to challenge that paternity or else they are considered legally responsible no matter what.

- Relevant to the above point, child support laws grossly disadvantage men. Women have the right to abortions and should have that right. Yet men have no equivalent financial right. So if condoms are tampered with, lies told, etc then a women can enlist the US government to garnish a man's wages regardless of if that man consented to children or not. If he is unable to pay then he is jailed until he can pay. So while that debt rises, the man is in jail, and will never be able to resolve that debt. Also, driver's license can be suspended, passport suspended, etc. This is a system I have been through. I have literally been told by a judge to shut up because he didn't want to hear my evidence yet she brought no evidence. They took her word for every claim. I had to fight for years just to get my support order to reflect what the law said it should be. Not only that, I was called a deadbeat on multiple occasions by judges due to having to work 2 jobs to make sure I stayed out of a jail long enough to get my support order adjusted properly. Meaning I was physically unable to make it to some of my visitation days. The judge did not agree that me working to stay out of jail (which would have ruined my career that is based on my clean criminal record) that she stated she would have thrown me in if I had been late on payments was not a justification to miss my visitation. Not to mention that the same judge allowed the mother to petition for sole custody, and granted it, based on me working to support my child. Nothing else. No abuse, neglect, mistreatment, nothing. Literally because I worked. So I lost access to my legal access to my child, but still retained the responsibility of paying support. Oh and my support burden was increased because her mother came to court and lied saying she was charging her $300 a month in child care. Which I was responsible for since I no longer had any custody.

- The gender Wage Gap (at least in the US) is actually disadvantages men based on the way it is presented in the media and the changes that are lobbied for based on it. Yet when economists actually dug into the data and compared women and men in with the same job, experience, education, certifications, etc they found that the wage gap was either completely even or actually favored women as high as $1.13 (if I recall correctly) to a man's $1.

[–]rj2029x 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

- Women also make up the large majority of college and high school graduates. Which can be traced back to changes in schooling to favor girl's education (which is a good thing) however it went past that and the structural changes ended up going so far as to disadvantage boys. In they US they did things like lowering the weighting of tests (on average boys test better and girls do homework better and more consistently), changing behavioral standards to favor being still and quiet while punishing boys for moving and horseplay (they also removed recess), and began diagnosing boys with ADHD and medicating them. I actually was in high school when these weighting changed. I went from being a gifted honor roll student in 8th grade, to being a C student in 9th grade because my tests no longer meant anything and the homework was the bulk of my grade. Yet I spent the first 9 years of my education learning that homework is for practicing concepts you don't know and tests are for proving you know them. So I wasn't able to adjust to the new standard. Knocked all my tests and standardized tests out of the park but spent high school mostly depressed and confused.

- Men are required to register for the Selective Service in the US. Women are not. If a man does not register then he cannot vote, cannot get Federal Student Aid, Federal Job training, or have a Federal Job.

- Men receive sentences that are 3 times harsher than women who commit the exact same crimes at least in the USA. Also men are 20 times more likely to receive the death penalty.

- Men make up 91% of work place deaths, work longer hours per week on average, and work the most dangerous jobs.

Speaking from a legal standpoint, there are no rights men have in western counties that women do not possess. Women actually possess more legal rights such as abortion and laws barring female genital mutilation are two that immediately come to mind (male genital mutilation still happens around the world at alarming rates.) From a non-legal standpoint, if you accuse me of rape just the charge is enough to ruin my career and life. Men are more likely to be arrested in DV situations even if there is evidence the woman is the aggressor even though the Duluth model was supposedly retired. If you a woman punches a man in the face in the streets no one will bat an eye, unless it to laugh at the man and ask the woman if she's okay. If a man retaliates, he will be jailed and labeled a woman beater.

Of course there are more examples from both sides. Thing is both men and women have it hard in the world in different ways. I don't think women's issues are any less than men's issues. I think they should both be tackled. I think framing the world and everything that happens in it from a standpoint of "men have always oppressed women for the sake of oppressing women" is a bit disingenuous and automatically removes the balance, nuance, and relevant current/historical facts from the conversation. Men and women have always worked together and struggled together historically. Some women stayed home to raise children in the 1800 because it was safer and relatively more comfortable than coal mining, law enforcement, quarrying, etc. There are plenty of historical examples, at least in the US, of women owning land, working in trades, becoming master artisans, etc.

When voting was first introduced, women were the ones that agitated the loudest against it because they worried they would have to sign up for the draft, be part of bucket brigades, and potentially be part of local militia duties. That's context for why it took longer for women to receive universal suffrage than men. No help from the terrorism of the Suffragettes who bombed buildings, banks, and people's houses. Basically being domestic terrorists which made no sense at the time as universal suffrage was already being pushed through (by male Suffragents.) All this is coming from someone that is not well versed in this field of study.

Here's a pretty good piece by Cathy Young that I think does a pretty good job in encapsulating how some of these ideas are affecting (https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/30/feminists-treat-men-badly-its-bad-for-feminism/)

Overall I just want to say thanks. I really appreciate this discussion. I respect everything you have to say because I think there are definitely places in the world where equality needs to be pushed. I just think that in certain places, we have accomplished what is needed which is equality of opportunity and in a few aspects, in a few places, things may have swung a bit too far the other way.

[–]Showmemoonlight1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There are two things I forgot to highlight previously in my first comment which shows below.

I didn't mention fully is that while FGM is illegal, as you discussed, it is still widely practised. As I've previously shared, it is still practised in 92 countries and 200,000,000 women are currently living with FGM. FGM is practised without anaesthesia under unsanitary conditions. Almost all FGM involves the clitoris and labia being removed, and 10% of FGM survivors also experiencing additional infibulation (so that they can be "tight" for their future husbands), which is the narrowing of the vaginal orifice with a covering seal and where the vagina is sewn mostly closed. I definitely agree that male circumcision should not occur unless it is a consensual decision of the boy or man, but it's really important not to glaze over how incredibly serious a topic FGM is. Women bleed to death because of FGM. Have you ever heard an account of a FGM survivor? If not, it will send chills down your spine.

What would you rather: have experienced your foreskin being removed as a baby by a medical practitioner under local anaesthesic, or be a teenage girl who one day is suddenly forcibly held down in a mud hut by your family while a "witch doctor" removes your entire clitoris (which has twice as many nerve endings as the tip of a penis), and the labia, and possibly narrows your vagina, all without anaesthesia. Oh, and you would never experience sexual pleasure in future because of this. Neither situation is morally sound and both issues need to be tackled, but I think we can agree that the latter is significantly more horrifying. I am unbelievably grateful to live in a developed country.

I also meant to ask about this.

Men receive sentences that are 3 times harsher than women who commit the exact same crimes at least in the USA. Also men are 20 times more likely to receive the death penalty.

Could this possibility be an issue of racism, given that men of colour currently account for 58% of the prison population (34% being black men and 24% being hispanic men). In 2018, black Americans represented 33% of the sentenced prison population, nearly triple their 12% share of the U.S. adult population, and astonishingly their incarceration rate has fallen by a third since 2006, so it used to be even worse.

[–]rj2029x2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What would you rather: have experienced your foreskin being removed as a baby by a medical practitioner under local anaesthesic, or be a teenage girl who one day is suddenly forcibly held down in a mud hut by your family while a "witch doctor" removes your entire clitoris (which has twice as many nerve endings as the tip of a penis)

The clitoris and tip of the penis have the same amount of nerve endings as far as anything I have read shows. If you have some different information I'd love to read it. Also, the foreskin has many more thousands of nerve endings as well which is why many circumcised men report decreased sensitivity as they get older. It has multiple functions and is more than just a random flap of skin.

There are many countries where male genital mutilation happens as part of tribal culture without anesthesia and when men are either beginning or ending puberty. Think of it like this. Any place where a female is genitally mutilated anesthesia in a mud hut is not going to magically produce an advanced medical facility for the boys to go through the same process. I actual don't think either one is more horrifying than the other. I think "developed" contraries have desensitized people to the trauma that results from MGM by framing it as a sterile procedure done in hospitals, even though there are multiple levels of MGM that reach very similar extremes as FGM. They are both horrible practices.

You're also not mentioning the most basic inequality in this entire conversation. There are laws that are meant to prevent and discourage females genitals being mutilated. It is illegal. When people are found doing it their are punished. It is considered a heinous crime. There are no such laws to protect men and boys. When men have it down to them, their parents get a bill from the doctor or (in a lot of less developed countries) that boy is left to deal with it how he can and hopefully it was done by a medical professional.

ould this possibility be an issue of racism, given that men of colour currently account for 58% of the prison population (34% being black men and 24% being hispanic men). In 2018, black Americans represented 33% of the sentenced prison population, nearly triple their 12% share of the U.S. adult population, and astonishingly their incarceration rate has fallen by a third since 2006, so it used to be even worse.

These two points don't track to me. When comparing men to women in general, men receive harsher sentences and exponentially more likely to receive the death penalty. There was no racial accounting in that. Men of color weren't being compared against white women to reach those numbers. So why would racism be the reason that men are punished more harshly for the same crimes even accounting for the same background and similar criminal records? I am honestly confused as to how these things go together.

[–]Showmemoonlight 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Thank you for the brilliant comment again. Those are some incredibly refreshing points and I always appreciate when people can challenge my views and really make me pause and reflect. I will be including some of the issues you have discussed and introduced me to in my own activism.

I automatically have a bit of apprehension with your statement that you have no idea what gender equality looks like.

Ah, I get that, but I stand by my clumsily phrased statement. I meant I couldn't envision gender equality because it won't be a tangible possibility/reality in my lifetime.

Gender equality to me would mean:

-Women having their human right to an education enacted in India, Cambodia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Chad, Papa New Guinea, Haiti, Egypt, Guatemala.

-Women having their human right to access to abortion and prevention of maternal mortality enacted and reenacted in across the globe.

-The gender paygap needs to be bridged. Worldwide, the average woman’s annual income is $11,500, versus $21,500 for a man. It will be 257 years before men and women have pay equality, according to the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap Report 2020. It is absolutely appalling that women in the UK earn £300,000 less over their lifetime than their male counterparts. To achieve this we need to improve parental leave (yay men) and ensure that parents are afforded flexibility with working hours, i.e. the simple opportunity to drop off and pick up children then continue working at home, so that parents (usually mothers) no longer face the ultimatum of being a good mother or having career progression. There needs to be wage transparency as a standard.

-An entire reform of how the police and how judicial systems worldwide treat rape victims of both genders.

-World-wide educational campaigns about harassment, assault, misogyny and consent would be essential in tackling sexual assault. The fact that almost all women have been sexually assaulted is completely unacceptable. The discussion of consent should be included in sex education for all genders. Misogyny was finally made a hate-crime recently in the UK, and that needs to follow suit worldwide.

-Proportional representation in the media, in politics and in the workplace across gender, ethnicity, sexuality and religion.

-FGM to finally be eradicated in the 92 countries it is still practised, despite being widely illegal.

-Austerity which disproportionately affects women needs to be addressed, such as government cuts made to single parents. Cuts in the UK are widening the poverty gap between women and men.

-Sex work needs to be decriminalised while the root cause of sex work, women in poverty, needs to be resolved.

-Women need the right to vote in Vatican City, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uganda, Kenya, Oman, Qatar, Egypt, Papa New Guinea, Zanzibar and Nigeria.

-Women worldwide deserve to enact their right to being free and equal. No more male guardianship over adult women.

-Increased investment in mental health services with a focus on men.

-Thanks to you bringing this one to my attention - custodial rights need to be equal and fair.

-More domestic abuse shelters need to be provided and they need to include providing access for men.

Concerning homelessness, I completely agree with you that male homelessness is an urgent priority and the stats are alarming. In the UK the government assistance programmes don't discriminate based on gender. I would be really interested in reading more about the fact that organisations are discriminatory in the US and I'll need to do more reading on that - do you have any resources to share? A possible explanation for the demographics of homelessness could be that women who are destitute have the unfortunate option of resorting to sex work. There clearly needs to be assistance programs with job seeking and getting out of homelessness for both genders.

I agree that every single case of domestic violence should be taken seriously. The statistics you provided are from 46 years ago, so should we look at more recent statistics? The resources I found alluded that there are differences in the occurrence, severity and impact between male violence against women and female violence against men. Women experience higher rates of repeated victimisation and are much more likely to be seriously hurt (Walby & Towers, 2017; Walby & Allen, 2004) or killed than male victims of domestic abuse (ONS, 2019). Further to that, women are more likely to experience higher levels of fear and are more likely to be subjected to coercive and controlling behaviours (Dobash & Dobash, 2004; Hester, 2013; Myhill, 2015; Myhill, 2017). For both the years ending March 2016 to the year ending March 2018, 74% of victims of domestic homicide (homicide by an ex/partner or family member) were female. This contrasts with non-domestic homicides where the majority of victims were male, killed at the hands of other men (87%).The overwhelming majority of female domestic homicide victims are killed by men; of the 270 female victims of domestic homicide for the year ending March 2016 to the year ending March 2018, the suspect was male in 260 cases. Men are significantly more likely to be repeat perpetrators.

However, again, all domestic abuse is completely intolerable, and I'm really dismayed to hear you discuss that there are so few shelters for men. This needs to be urgently rectified. I actually know a man who is a victim of domestic abuse, so it's an issue as close to home as my female friends in the same circumstances.

Concerning sexual assault, there is definitely a gap in the law that leaves out men who have experienced sexual assault. I'm so sorry to hear what happened to your friend, that's truly awful. As a fellow rape survivor who was also left in a vulnerable position (except in my case on a patch of grass), I can completely appreciate why this affected them on that level. I need to state this sensitively because I don't want to make you feel unheard, but obviously as discussed, women are also treated horrendously by the police and the judiciary system concerning sexual assault and rape. What I'm trying to establish is that this is not exclusive to either gender. Also, as sexual assault and rape are issues that disproportionately affect women, unfortunately, I'm sure you'll know plenty of women who have been raped, even if they aren't "out" about it. So, while more women absolutely need to raise awareness about sexual assault affecting men, it does feel absurd when men refuse to include women in their sexual assault survivor advocacy. There needs to be an urgent transformation in the way the police and the judiciary system treats both genders when it comes to sexual assault and rape.

I'm afraid I don't see eye-to-eye with you about your views on the gender wage gap, but we are all entitled to our own opinion based on the studies and stats available to us. I appreciate what you shared, anyway. There are often loopholes for gender paygaps, like bonuses. In the UK, there was a median gender bonus paygap of 69.3%, 37.7% and 37.7% for HSBC, Lloyd's and Santander respectively. Additionally, the percentage of women in the senior management and at board level in jobs further tilts the gender wage gap. The share of women in the top pay quartile is only 22% in the top leading banks in the UK, for example. Also, research has shown that female directors at the UK’s largest financial services firms are paid on average two-thirds less than their male counterparts.

Please let me know if this paragraph causes upset. I think the child support situation is a tricky one, as ultimately, surely the most ethical situation is the one that benefits the child? This is just my opinion, but isn't there a distinction between a woman aborting an embryo or a barely-developed fetus (not yet a baby, obviously) for health, mental-health, quality-of-life or ethical reasons, and a parent who doesn't have custody attempting to evade paying child support for an actual child, possibly exposing said child to financial neglect? The fact that most paying parents who pay child support are men is surely a reflection of society, and not a bias in the law, as there is no specific law which states that parents who are men who pay child support should be treated less fairly than parents who are women who pay child support. In the UK, child support is relative to income; is it not calculated the same way in the US? Ultimately, pregnancy is a risk of sex, and both men and women have access to various methods of contraception, and the choice to enjoy sexual activities outside of/instead of vaginal penetration.

I don't want the above paragraph to imply I'm anything less than deeply sorry to hear how you have been treated concerning custodial rights. I'm also incredibly sorry for the sake of your child. I agree with you on the matter that men are grossly disadvantaged when it comes to custodial rights. If a man is a good father and like you said, has never exhibited the negative behaviour you listed, they should have access to their own children.

Gender differences in suicide is an incredibly important topic. This is indeed a crisis and I'm glad that awareness of the subject is regularly raised. I totally agree with you that there needs to be more funding in mental health services for different groups in society, with a focus on men. Men use more lethal suicide methods, adult women in the US reported a (less lethal) suicide attempt 1.2 times as often as men*, and women are 20-40% more likely to suffer from a mental illness.

*This could be explained by women being more likely than men to discuss emotions.

The fact that the US Government maintains information on those potentially subject to military conscription is terrifying

I can't read the article, nooo!

This discussion has been eye-opening at my side. Thank you!

[–]rj2029x2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It is fairly eye opening for me as well concerning the issues on a more global scale. I do appreciate it.

I will say that I can understand why you hold a lot of the views you hold.

Even as a feminist who believes in gender equality, your views have just as much bias as I'm sure you believe mine do. That is because we are human and it is a very tall order to ask women to understand life as a man the same way it's hard to ask a man to understand life as a woman.

So things like:

A possible explanation for the demographics of homelessness could be that women who are destitute have the unfortunate option of resorting to sex work. There clearly needs to be assistance programs with job seeking and getting out of homelessness for both genders.

I can only speak for the US but there are programs for job seeking and education. Also financially assistance and housing. Thing is children and women are prioritized for those programs. They technically exist for both genders, but the practical application is that the homeless mother with a kid is going to get access before the homeless (vulnerable) single woman who will get access before the single man is even considered.

Also, as sexual assault and rape are issues that disproportionately affect women, unfortunately, I'm sure you'll know plenty of women who have been raped, even if they aren't "out" about it.

Based on the data or on optics? You probably know as many men who have been sexually assaulted, raped, coerced, or taken advantage of while drunk as I do women who experienced the same. I'm a rape and sexual assault survivor. Yet, I have been met with literal derision and told I wasn't as affected as a woman who experienced the same thing because I'm a man. Oh and this was in a discussion with multiple people that claimed to be feminists.

I've pointed out that the data is skewed because it has no choice but to be skewed. Here's the thing. I can confidently admit to not knowing which gender is more affected by sexual assault and rape. There are many systemic reasons men and women share for not reporting. That said, there is far more education on rape and sexual assault happening to women, far more media attention, far more programs making female victims their priority, and less societal barriers for women to report. So how can we truly say women are disproportionately affected by rape and sexual assault when men can't legally be raped, for longest time being sexually assaulted as a man was silenced, and the barriers are just now breaking down enough to for systems to begin to accept the concept that men can be victims.

A prime example of this is Title IX in the US. There is a plethora of evidence showing an abuse of the Title IX system against men for close for over a decade. Only in recent years have cases begun turning up of men being victims of sexual harassment, stalking etc. A famous case would be the one of Emma Sulkowicz (aka mattress girl) who made a created a brand and benefitted from her (proven false) depiction of the events that happened between her and the man she alleged raped her. Even though he was exonerated a year after her claims, the school did nothing as he was harassed, bullied, attacked, and threatened for years.

I'm afraid I don't see eye-to-eye with you about your views on the gender wage gap, but we are all entitled to our own opinion based on the studies and stats available to us.

That's fine. People can't agree on everything. One thing I will say. Take a look at the Scandinavian countries and their distributions. You will notice that the closer a society gets to gender equality, the more extreme the differences in choices between men and women become. In those countries women go for jobs as teachers, social workers, nurses, counselors, etc while men become engineers, scientists, masons, welders, landscapers, brick layers, etc. At some point, we are going to have to accept that men and women make difference choices, even when society has structured itself to prevent biasing influences.

Please let me know if this paragraph causes upset. I think the child support situation is a tricky one, as ultimately, surely the most ethical situation is the one that benefits the child? This is just my opinion, but isn't there a distinction between a woman aborting an embryo or a barely-developed fetus (not yet a baby, obviously) for health, mental-health, quality-of-life or ethical reasons, and a parent who doesn't have custody attempting to evade paying child support for an actual child, possibly exposing said child to financial neglect?

Not upset but definitely doesn't feel genuine in it's presentation. You have picked the best case scenarios for the mothers and compared them to the worst case scenarios for the fathers. You describe a noncustodial parent attempting to evade their obligations when that is not the majority of fathers affected by this system. Though it is the type of stereotyping the media pushes and is hard to refute because Juvenile and Domestic court records are sealed "for the protection of the children." Funny how it also protects corrupt officials as well.

This is something similar to homelessness assistance programs that I referred to. Just because something is written into law as applicable to both genders does not mean it bears out that way in practice. The bias isn't in the written law, but in the way it is enforced by the humans tasked with doing so. The majority of judges sitting benches (once again I can only confidently speak for the US) currently began their careers as lawyers and probably judges when the "Tender Years" doctrine was the rule to live by. Which basically said, children need their mothers up until they are teenagers, then we'll consider their voice in the decision. Even though that doctrine has been retired legally, people are not computers. You can't just delete everything to do with the idea that women need the children and support for the children unless a very good case of negligence or abuse is presented. These judges are still giving mothers custody, which means the large majority of mothers are the custodial parents. The Family Lawyers are in on the racket as well. They know each other and know the judges by first name. I had one lawyer that was retiring literally tell me that I would be better off representing myself because at least then I wouldn't be milked for thousands of dollars just to get the same outcome.

Not only that, the majority of abortions in the US are not done for medically necessary reasons. So unless you're counting, "I don't want a kid" as a mental health reason then you must accept there are women that use abortions as alternate birth control. Which is a good segue in the fact that women have far more options for birth control than men (condom, vasectomy, abstinence.) Also, pregnancy is a risk of sex but what about those that didn't choose to have sex. That is how my first child was conceived. Slipped a mickey and a 9 months later my bundle of joy. What about condom tampering? Sperm-jacking? Lying about BC in a committed relationship? All of these things that circumvent a man's clear intent to not conceive a child.

*This could be explained by women being more likely than men to discuss emotions.

Still have no idea why you think men don't discuss our emotions? This stereotype confuses me and has always confused me. Emotion doesn't rule my life as a man. I talk about my emotions pretty freely with my male friends, my therapist, and my parents. I talk about them with my SO when they are relevant to her. I don't know many men healthy men, as in men that haven't suffered extreme abuse, that don't talk about their emotions.

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Need to be specific about what kind of equality. To my knowledge, ideal feminism touts equality of outcome as the goal, which is a horrendous goal because it removes people's autonomy and doesn't take into account merit based rewards among other things.

For social matters, equal outcomes might seem like a good idea, but there's honestly no way to ensure that's the case, especially with legal matters, besides just flipping a coin or saying "well the last time a man got x so this time it should be a woman." Could you imagine what our world would become if that was the mentality used for custody battles, rape cases with only he said/she said evidence (including forced to penetrate), or domestic abuse where both parties get physical?

Pushing for equal representation in jobs whether in the public or private sector is a fool's errand because equal representation can't be selective, meaning to get actual equal representation you must include people like those too young to work, already retired, and the mentally disabled because they're people too so they must get their portion of everything being split up. If you need somebody to explain why having a CEO under 18 who didn't seek it out themselves in the first place isn't a good thing, you really shouldn't be allowed to say what people belong in any careers.

This all comes back to autonomy; you need to let people make their own choices which emphasizes equality of opportunity and not equality of outcome. It leads to large discrepancies between the sexes in terms of job choices and situations they find themselves in, but doing anything else removes certain consequences of choice that are incredibly important in the formation of well adjusted adults later in their life.

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She was even involved in a movie where women drugged men for money, used it for a lavish lifestyle and we were supposed to feel bad because “Im a poor single mom”.

"Hustlers" is the movie. Great flick that really delves into the mindset and upbringing of a golddigger. Tho it REALLY pushes a benevolent victim narrative.

I was watching it with a buddy and his GF during that scene where the dude had fallen out of his window and the the girl thought she had killed him since he did it because of the drugs she slipped in his drink.

My buddy's GF, let out a whimper of empathy FOR HER. She said she felt bad for her because she thought she killed him... I was like, "because she drugged him in order to rob him of his money! Wtf?!"

She said "oh yeah, hehe, I forgot..."

If ever there was a best example of women's in-group preference for other women - it was that.

Real eye opener for me...

Fun fact, that movie is actually based on bits of Cardis life.

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How can you not in today's society? OnlyFans, the justice system geared HEAVILY towards women. They can choose to not work and have kids and be financially supported by their SO for life or be a career pursuer or both, there's affirmative action and though they make up the majority of the population they're somehow minorities, people think they should be able to be completely topless without causing disturbances or thinking they won't get r@ped in the US when they already bitch about guys looking and being cat called when either fully clothed or at the beach; they have 100% of the decision making for having or aborting a child and they use it as a first or secondary birth control, they get coddled more as children because girls are associated with innocence, gentleness, and won't be hit as often as children. Speaking of being hit, they hardly get any jail time for being the perpetrator in a domestic abuse case since women tend to be smaller and weaker so police will arrest the man in MOST cases, they get lighter jail sentences and I can go on and on bud. I got 10 years of experience in this field.

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I'm 15 years old, so I obviously don't have much experience in "the real world" but I'm very observant. Through my years of school, I've seen that women are treated with extremely less severity when they do something bad. I've seen countless times men be unfairly screamed at while the same person who screamed at them allows a woman to do the same thing. It's very hypocritical. But in no way is this saying that all women are bad. It's saying that there is a very obvious double standard that no one really seems to care about. I had a female bus driver once, she was always very cranky so I brushed off her attitude as just someone who isn't very pleasant. But she very clearly showed hate towards many of the guys on the bus. Many times she wouldn't allow the guys to speak and only the women, then she would proceed to belittle many of the guys, and if one of them spoke up, they would be written up. But the thing is, not a single one of the women on that bus thought of that as bad behavior, they actually enjoyed it. So I think that just because women are more vocal about their issues doesn't automatically mean that men don't face many of the same issues.

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First off - chill. I can feel you breathing heavily through my screen. And saying this...

You're all disgusting man children.

And then this...

How else did a woman hurt your fee fees?

Isn't going to give any credence to the idea that you know how to conduct yourself like an adult. Lol.

There are legitimate grievances men have about the imbalances of power between men and women at both the individual and especially the group level in the west.

There also exists a pervasive narrative that things are actually worse for women than they have ever been despite an innumerable record of data that proves counter to this.

As a result, it's not surprising that many men would be upset about the hypocrisy of it all, and even moreso when simply pointing that fact out will elicit extreme defensiveness from the segment of the population that has historically been known to care less about the substance of what's being said, and moreso about how it makes her feel...

Is there a lot of victimization going on? Yes, unfortunately so. At the individual level I would agree with what you've said - to an extent. Everyone's got problems and generally speaking, its up to nobody to solve one's problems but themselves. However, at the group level, it simply does not work the same way.

Marxism, feminism, and post-modernists decided to open pandoras box of oppression narratives and now men have been forced to do the same. Cause and effect.

__

Incel means involuntarily celibate - it used to be a benign term for shy individuals who had trouble with dating. Nowadays, it's your garden variety insult simply meant to hurt another person's feelings - i.e. to assert one's dominace over another...so you calling this place "an incel sub" and it's members "man children" is frankly ironic and indicative of lacking social awareness.

I'd invite you to explore the sub further to discover the core reasons for their grievances (although, how the particular pic above fails to communicate that to you is honestly perplexing to me), but I have a feeling you came here with a chip on your shoulder already and will just dig your heels in further, refusing to view any other perspective as legitimate.

Or am I wrong about that?

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Interesting point! it makes sense though. Maybe they're mad thinking they were abandoned (as kids) or something, but many times a guy can knock up a woman and never be told she was pregnant. Especially with the massive feminism push how 'they don't need men'. A woman might use a guy to get pregnant with the purpose of raising the child alone. Then when things don't work out she blames the absentee father for abandoning them.. The kid would grow up blaming the father for the mothers decision.

I'd be curious to know what percentage of 'completely fatherless childhoods' were due to the man simply not knowing. I've read stories about women planning to get pregnant and raise a kid on her own and other stories how guys found out later what happened. I would bet that many of the men would want to be fathers if given the knowledge and opportunity, and would support their child.

I'm not suggesting its a huge percentage, but with the general animosity towards men and the desire to prove how strong & independent they are, i can see at least a small percentage of women intentionally keeping the father in the dark to prove they can raise rise a kid on her own with a failsafe of blaming an absent man if she does a poor job.

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This comment possibly won't go down well and it'll possibly feel like I'm in "enemy waters" despite the fact everyone here has the common goal of gender equality, but I just want to put something into perspective. While those comments are utterly despicable, they're most likely a result of frustration from a severe lack of sympathy and support towards women from men concerning sexual assaults against women. I don't see enough men raising awareness about misogyny and violence and sexual assault towards women at the hands of men; in fact, I see more men joking about it, devastatingly. Sexual harassment and assault disproportionately affects women and is most often at the hands of men. 97% of young women in the UK have been sexually harassed. Only 1.5% of rapes reach a charge or summons, and those are the ones women are brave enough to press charges for.

If men here are upset seeing those two appalling comments, how do you think women feel, given women experience the vast majority of sexual violence and then there is the unanimous nonchalance from men being the cherry on top.

[–]nugscree 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (53 children) | Copy Link

Hey first of all, you're not in enemy waters here. Having said that, your argument is a strawman tactic to turn the post around towards woman facing problems. I case you've missed it, that is not what this post is about, nor where this subreddit exists for.

If you are not seeing enough awareness you must have blinders on, because it is everywhere, I see it posted several times a day on different kinds of social media, it gets picked up by news outlets. There are awareness days in sports, on social media channels, on news channels, in papers/billboards etc. All for woman mind you, no such thing (or hardly any) for men.

For men;

Cases or reports get ignored by police forces
Men that have come out and have been seeking help simply turned away because they are men, some of them take their own lives because of this
Cannot discuss this on any platform without getting the, but woman have it worse statement
Get their entire life shut down by even a mention of sexual assault

And I can go on, just read a few stories in this subreddit about all the problems men face.

The main problem isn't that we want to be vocal about sexual assault, the problem is that we get silenced the moment we want to bring our problems into the conversation.

Now I'm not saying woman have problems too, but at least those problems are taken seriously, men's problems get laughed at.

[–]Showmemoonlight -5 points-4 points-3 points 5 years ago* (52 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for letting me know I'm welcome in the discussion. I'm really sorry, but what you just said about women's issues being taken seriously just does not align with what most women are saying, or my own lived experience. As a woman I can confirm that women's problems are not being taken at all "seriously". It took the tragedy of what happened to Sarah Everard to even start a discussion in the media and on social media about misogyny and violence towards women, yet #notallmen was trending above it on Twitter the evening human remains were found.

Misandry exists because of misogyny, not the other way around. I don't advocate either, obviously. I completely abhor all forms of prejudice, like misandry, and systemic oppression, like misogyny. My long winded point is that those misandrist women jeering in those statements in the original post are likely the result of lifelong misogyny, and witnessing men (the main perpetrators of all kinds of assault) not caring about female victims.

When you said the following...

"For men;

-Cases or reports get ignored by police forces -Men that have come out and have been seeking help simply turned away because they are men, some of them take their own lives because of this -Cannot discuss this on any platform without getting the, but woman have it worse statement -Get their entire life shut down by even a mention of sexual assault"

...you could have replaced "for men" with "for women" and most of those points would have remained true. Most of those issues affect women but on a greater scale, as women are affected by more sexual assault.

Point one - You mention that the police turn men away, but the same happens with women. The police often ignore and turn away women who report rapes. Look at the Instagram stories of a page called "cheerupluv", which is a resource about how street harassment and general misogyny affects women. The stories today show women discussing their experiences of going to the police about rapes and other assaults. I've personally been raped and when I reported it the police threatened me that if I couldn't prove I was telling the truth, I could be "convicted for lying" about it. It goes without saying that I was telling the truth, but absolutely terrified. 2 years later I received a call that the police found the rapist as his DNA was matched to another crime. They now wanted my testimony to add weight to another case.

Point two - There are indeed gender issues in suicide, and I need to try to broach this as sensitively and respectfully as possible. The Center for Disease Control and Prevention found that women attempt suicide 2 to 3 times more often than men, but they tend to use less lethal measures. However, mental health in men is an incredibly important topic and one that I'm greatly sympathetic about.

Point three - While men supposedly can't discuss certain subjects without being told women have it worse, women can't discuss their experiences without hearing "not all men". On both sides we need to make people feel heard, especially concerning issues like assault.

Point 4 - The notion of innocent men getting their lives shut down is a little out of touch with the reality that most sexual assaults go completely unreported, and that out of those that do get reported, only 1.5% of those lead to summons or charges. Most women have been harassed or assaulted. Many women you know will have been seriously assaulted, so sexual assault affecting the women in your life is more likely to be "closer to home" than men being falsely accused. Also, given that 97% of young women have been harassed, you're likely to know plenty of actual perpetrators.

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[–]Showmemoonlight0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I've raised plenty of points in this thread about the link between misogyny and misandry, in order to help eradicate both forms of prejudice and discrimination. Forgive me, but you can't even answer me on what books you have read about gender equality or what rights men don't yet have. I've asked you multiple times as to what the latter answer is so that I can be an ally, should men experience socioeconomic gender inequality due to discrimination on some level, and you cannot answer me or tell me what specific laws you lack or what bills you're fighting for.

What's even is your point, anyway? What outcome do you want from this discussion? Or the situation in general? You can't achieve gender equality without addressing inequality towards women. Do you want gender equality, or for men to have power?

[–]sofjiihdd1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And you can't even read for yourself. I am not telling you as you would just use it to put me down. You can't tell me what you have read up on men's rights. You won't even give me a starting point and yet you expect me to tell you. You aren't an ally as you won't actually read up on anything.

I want gender equality but I also want a space where men can speak of the problems that they face

Do you want gender equality or do you just want to tell Men that they can't speak about their problems because no matter what they say someone Will mention why women have it so much worse rather than acknowledging what they are going through and giving advice that helps them.

If you truly cared about gender equality you would be on the feminist subs discussing what they can do to make it better for men. As to paraphrase you, you can't achieve gender equality without addressing inequality towards Men but the fact that you won't even research the inequality towards men shows the agenda that you have

[–]Showmemoonlight-1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Mate, men seem to be swimming in rights, and I can't find any academic books about men's rights, nor have you recommended a single one. I've read many books on gender inequality and have plenty of recommendations for you. You've clearly read absolutely zilch on gender inequality.

You still can't answer me - what rights don't men have?

I want gender equality but I also want a space where men can speak of the problems that they face. The "problems" that men face is not the same thing as men not having rights. Of course men should have a space to discuss their problems, but don't conflate "rights" and "problems".

Do you want gender equality or do you just want to tell Men that they can't speak about their problems?

I truly simply want gender equality. Women don't just have "problems" to bicker about; women and marginalised gender identities face unbelievable amounts of socioeconomic gender inequality and deeply rooted systemic discrimination.

There hasn't yet been a woman US President. There have only been two Prime Ministers in the UK who are women. FGM is still a heartbreaking issue worldwide. In Saudi Arabia, women are the "property" of their "male guardian" and only in 2019 did women in SA finally gain the right to travel without the permission of their male guardian. 97% of young women under the age of 24 in the UK have been sexually harassed. Just 1.5% of rapes in the UK lead to charge or summons. Domestic homicides in Italy are on the rise and men aren't being charged. Before covid 19 the gender paygap stood at 60 years to close; it's now at 90 years. Across the world, the average income for a woman is $11,500, but for a man? $21,500. There is a stubborn gender paygap in the UK of a 14% difference for full time workers. Last week in British Parliament MP Jess Phillips spent almost 5 minutes reading every single name of all of the women who died at the hands of men in the past year alone in the UK. Women in the UK have shouldered 86% of the income loss from changes to the tax and benefits systems since our Conservative government came into power in 2010.

Now, to be an ally, I need to know what rights men don't yet have?

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[–]Showmemoonlight1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You've been combing through my comments and spam-replying, so I'm keeping my answer all in the one place.

97%? Where'd you get that from? A highly credited person, or some random person on reddit or another social media? How was the research? Did research even happen?

YouGov, a reputable global public opinion, market research and data-analytics company carried out a study that revealed that 97% of young women have been sexually harassed.

I heard a story that a guy got jailed for 25+ years just 'cuz a woman said he r@ped her. There wasn't any research done for the guy. The woman just said it, and that was that. I don't see this happening at all for women. You got any proof?

In the UK only 1.5% of rapes which are reported lead to charges or summons. Most rapes are not reported. Most women you know will have been sexually harassed and sexually assaulted. You are far more likely to know plenty of women who have been sexually assaulted than you are to know of a man who was falsely accused. You're also incredibly likely to know plenty of men who have harassed women.

Idiot, you don't want to answer the question because you don't want to do any research on a subreddit you moron.

Thanks for the pitiful insult. A fundamental aspect of analysing a text is to ask the question "is there bias?", and there is plenty in the subreddit. The subreddit also failed entirely to show me actual rights that men lack, as opposed to challenges and difficulties in life based on their gender. I asked on plenty of occasions for academic books and resources which support the notion that men lack any particular human rights and Sofjiihdd could not answer me. Such texts do not exist.

Someone doesn't like to do some scrolling and clicking on a subreddit...

The subreddit did not provide the answer.

"I can't find any academic books about men's rights" nobody even wants to make a book about it, it probably wouldnt even sell a couple handfulls of copies. almost everybody would rather read about womens rights, or just a book hating on all men.

The bruised-ego's way of refusing to accept that scholars and critics assert that empirical research does not support the notion of systemic discrimination against men.

"I need to know what rights men don't yet have?" they don't have the right to speak about problems that they have, as they are usually met with "man up", "women have it way worse", or maybe even "nobody cares lol", or just flat out ignored. there is only a good handful of places where men can speak about their problems (like this subreddit).

You seem to be conflating actual human rights with societal gender norms and expectations. Sorry, but people caring about what you have to say is not a human right, so you'll just need to work on trying to fix that hideous personality.

Have you ever fucking seen a man being able to talk about their problems (another place other than this subreddit), without being shut down or flat out ignored? Tell me. Tell me. I know you'll see this. Tell me how many men get legal custody over the mother, when the mother is abusive. Now tell me how many subreddits are dedicated to helping men? How many are for women? I know you will see this. If you don't respond, I'll take that as you not having an answer, since men rarely get any articles dedicated to their problems. Block me? I'll take that as you being too scared to anwer, because you'll realize you're wrong. I want you to give me atleast one source that isnt some weirdo on reddit. C'mon, I know you've been on reddit lately.

Stalker, much? That last sentence really creeped me out.

Have I ever seen men having platforms to speak? Well, yes, for all of history until now men's representation and work have entirely dominated the media and academia. Currently, there is still only a refreshing and recent peppering of diversity in the media and academia, but white cisgender straight men are still disproportionately over-represented.

I'm not scared of you, buddy. You're hiding behind a keyboard.

[–]ILikeGamesYT1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Showmemoonlight1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No way, a person on the internet is hiding behind a keyboard?

I didn't merely point out that you're hiding behind a keyboard. The question explored why I should be "scared" of you if you are hiding anonymously behind a keyboard?

"That last sentence really creeped me out". I thought I wasn't scary?

They are two entirely distinct emotions.

The subreddit also failed entirely to show me actual rights that men lack, as opposed to challenges and difficulties in life based on their gender. Welp, I guess I'm wrong. Men speaking about their problems, then getting ignored or insulted, and getting abused isn't a violation of being able to talk freely. Welp.

You still haven't grasped that difficulties because of societal gender norms /= human rights.

"The subreddit did not provide the answer". well, it did to me.

Oh, fantastic. Perhaps you can enlighten me, then: what specific human rights do men lack based on their gender?

[–]ILikeGamesYT2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Showmemoonlight -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Showmemoonlight 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Of course it is true, but even if it weren't, how would you know that or be able to prove it? Obviously you aren't me, therefore you don't have my lived experience.

Also, you have eyes and ears, right? You're really telling me you've been totally oblivious to other men making violent, rapey, sexist or boundary pushing comments and jokes towards women your whole life? It's such a "normal" ubiquitous thing in society and is so widely discussed. Just look at the mainstreaming of this mentality. Take rap music and Eminem's lyrics, for example. There are so many movies and TV shows where situations with women breach their consent are often set up for comedic value.

In contrast, so few men are raising awareness about the violence and harassment that women face at the hands of men on social media. When Sarah Everard was positively identified, almost every woman I know was talking about and raising awareness about misogyny and harassment towards women, sharing this in social media and in real life discussions. I only saw 2 men post about it. I don't want to shame men for this, the purpose of this comment is to help show men that their support on this subject matters.

Instead of shutting down this discussion, why won't you instead turn it into a positive outcome? See it as an opportunity to challenge misogynistic jokes and comments in future, rather than pretending they don't exist? Have discussions with the women in your life about what misogyny is really like, and how harassment affects them. It'll be eye-opening.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Showmemoonlight -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Why would you have unconditional bias and hatred of an entire section of the population who have no choice over their gender, regardless of their personality, or if they would treat you with kindness and with respect? Do you also agree with other forms of prejudice and discrimination, like racism, homophobia and antisemitism?

You truly hate every single woman you have ever encountered? Why?

Women create and birth life. We're mothers, daughters, sisters, cousins, aunts, dear friends, girlfriends and wives.

What happened to you? What is the catalyst for this senseless blanket level prejudice? Do you have a bad relationship with your mother? Do you keep getting rejected romantically and your chip on your shoulder has now festered into something pitch black?

There is a reason that the Freudian phrase “Tell me about your mother” is shorthand for the rolling landscape of psychoanalysis. The relationship between a boy and his mother-figure steers the course of male psychology.

Do you think you would find happiness and love if you could learn to learn to have a sense of masculine identity without misogyny? It must feel like you're languishing in your hatred.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Showmemoonlight 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not ignoring you at all. I really want to understand what's going on.

Have you ever considered that meeting someone with a bias towards them could exacerbate how negatively the interaction goes in terms of reciprocation? For example, have you personally experienced any prejudice on the grounds of something like ethnicity or religion? Have you ever met people who are just straight-up rude or cold with you based on their prejudice? If so, did it make you less likely to be friendly towards them? Your negative reaction would only serve to fuel their confirmation bias. If you didn't have a bias towards women, perhaps your interactions with them would be reciprocated positively and therefore more meaningful for you.

In a long winded way, perhaps you looking at women through this Freudian lens means that it invokes unfulfilling interactions.

In that note, you might want to read into Fred's Interpretation of Dreams where he discusses a relevant topic called the Oedipus complex.

Do you have any female friends? When was the last time you had a proper conversation with a woman in real life?

[–]ILikeGamesYT -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

well, no i havent been rejected too many times by girls. I've even had two girlfriends in the past, but yea i do not have a good relationship with my mom. While that may play some part in the ill feelings i have, all the women i've met in my life in a professional or personal setting, have just been frankly, inferior. They're not fun too hang around with, feelings are hurt much more, you have to be wary of your behavior so that they dont accuse you of sexual assault or something. Guys are just so much better to hang around with, sometimes i even wish i was gay. I used to defend my less than exemplary behavior against women before, but now i dont even care if people judge me for being a misogynist. My life could be better, but its fine and i dont see any reason as to why i should try and change my beliefs

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Lol I never defended her. I just prefer to understand the viewpoints of everyone. You obviously dont understand what the term socioeconomic means if you're just basing it on net worth. Also wtf kind of dumbass goes to a strip club to pick up a woman? That is asking for trouble. That's not even victim blaming, a strip clubs a place for viewing, not for picking up women. Once you start delving into prostitution that's sketchy territory no matter what (Vegas and other awesome places aside). Theres 2 sides to every coin. Do I think it was a super noble great thing to do? No. Am I surprised that a young stripper from the bronx drugged and robbed someone? No. This was before she was famous and the only reason it even came out was because she herself told the story. She knows it was wrong. I'm not apologist, I just understand the viewpoint and the entire situation because I looked into it instead of reading a headline and not checking. Sorry my view doesnt line up with reddit's hate boner for her.

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Title	Double Standards
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	4896
Comments	433
Date	March 21, 2021 12:04 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/m9jn40/double_standards/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/double-standards.1190190 https://theredarchive.com/post/1190190

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