Genuine questions

jrackow · 2022-07-08T21:23:22+00:00

Great questions. You might enjoy these links and arguments which are relatively comprehensive: https://www.reddit.com/r/rbomi/wiki/main

I think if you do read those, you'll notice the pattern of a binary existing. Similar to feminism, where a lot of the emphasis is on men, the men's rights groups will mention women to help establish context. Let's say the treatment of women, or men, establish a standard, and then the other is not getting equal treatment. The explanation of the other's treatment is necessary to explain why their treatment is lacking.

This especially touches on:

MGM v. FGM

Custody/alimony

Prison and sentencing disparity

"Male disposability". I think if you open that link, you'll begin to see where male disposability is real, and it's ingrained possibly even into our instincts of survival, I'll admit

The draft. I mean..... That one's pretty glaring, you'd no doubt agree?

Going to your point about the movement being reactionary, there are consequences to "believing all women". Women who have sons are less likely to jump on that bandwagon because they realize how faulty that logic is.

There's pushback to terms like "mansplaining" because it's an easily dismissive way to not have to take an entire gender seriously, and just dismiss one's argument as being mansplaining.

Also, feminism exists to prop up women in the world, and regularly (through a gynocentric lens) will dismiss concerns from men, because its aim is to help women. Men's rights can run the risk of being guilty of this too, and both have to make sure to approach their goals from an egalitarian perspective. Some are not worried about the "pendulum". They just want more.

Reddit1984Censorship · 2022-07-09T00:29:13+00:00

Is too much to answer all at once, but i want you to take this with you at least.
Is much harder and dangerous for men to express weakness because men dont have the proteccion women take for granted.
If someone starts being physicaly violent against a woman in public, everyone jumps at the attacker and she is guaranteed to be helped and the attacker to be prosecuted.
If someone attacks a man in public people watch in a circle and then that man loses respect in that social enviroment.
I think you can find most if not all of root of the phenomena call ''toxic masculinity'' (i despise that term) in the fact that men are not protected like woman are, and if you actually want to remove toxic masculinity the only way you will ever achive that is by guaranteeng the same exact protection for men that women already receive and take for granted as default.
And then if you apy atention you will find that feminism is doing the exact opposite, always framing woman as the onle ever victims of suffering and violence, gaslighting and blocking the progress in mens social and legal rights.

osonim69 · 2022-07-08T23:52:50+00:00

I don’t really feel like typing out a big long response so I’ll just advise you to watch the documentary “the red pill” (I think it’s free on YouTube). It’s a great documentary made by a feminist wanting to learn more about the mens rights movement and it covers a ton of stuff. The interviews she does on mras were my favorite part cause it completely changed my view of the mens rights movement and the people who participate in it.

_mindmedic_ · 2022-07-09T00:39:11+00:00

Nobody can speak for the entire portion, but personally, I'm not reactionary. I care about female rights just as much as male rights, but the only issue seems to be that society doesn't.

Men are quite undervalued in society. It doesn't matter that we're people with feelings, experiences, and goals. All that matters is that we have something to give. I suppose our value as people and potential partners is nearly fully determined by how we can contribute to society. Men have been cannon fodder for nearly all history, it seems. We're still getting degraded as human beings, too. There are a lot of issues men face outside of bias in the law system.

Socially, men are undervalued. Men are rarely taught to be emotional and they fear opening up to people. Toxic masculinity hurts men a lot, as it causes us to not really be there for each other like women are for eachother. Women are much more emotionally intelligent, and I've been raised by women. So I'm very emotionally intelligent and I care a lot about everyone, I always wanna talk and listen to people's problems. Unfortunately, me being a male causes some bias that I'm being manipulative or something, like I'm being so caring because I want to have sex. I don't know if it matters, but I've never cared for sex that much. I think a lot of men can agree that intimacy like cuddling and caressing is infinitely better than sex. Even then, I'm not on a mission to seduce anyone, I'm not caring because I'm gay. I'm just genuine, but it's hard for lots of people to accept that.

My life was ruined when I was 14 because of false rape accusations (by a girl I never had sex with). Ironically, this girl has sexually assaulted me prior to this. I was told I was supposed to enjoy it, and if I resisted she'd kick me in the balls. It took years for me to realize what happened.

I've been an only child my whole life with a single mother, so it's been hard for me to have a good relationship with a man. Every partner she's had has either been extremely drunk and or abusive to both me and her, and my birth father tried killing me several times. I'm very feminine I've figured, which is maybe why it's easier for girls to open up to me. The point is, I prefer to hang around females but I have several male friends that I care about. I don't have it that bad anymore, at least, socially. I know of several other guys who do.

My friends are quite timid about feelings, and some even have problems saying goodbye (they get uncomfortable with soft masculinity). However, I've been able to open them up a little so they can really talk. It's an amazing thing. Most men don't get that type of opportunity, so guys are really stuck inside their head. Men feel VERY alone. This is partly because how women treat males in public. Women are very friendly and talkative to other women (strangers), but encounters with men are different. Women put up this shield and get very cold around men. This makes sense, as they're probably just afraid. Some men are scary, some men are pigs, and some men are perverts. But I'm not, like many others. That shield makes us men feel so lonely and problematic, even if we don't realize.

Fathers also have it pretty rough with their children. I've heard several stories of fathers having the police called on them, being held at gunpoint by a cop, or being arrested because they decided to bring their children out to the playground or something. Again, I understand why this happens, but it's sad that it does.

Women who rape men usually get away with it and are never reported. The ones who are, get celebrated and congratulated. The rape/sexual assault ratio for men and women has a large gap, but it shouldn't be as large as it is. Men just don't report it because they're afraid, and even if they do, they're ignored. Women get sexually exploited far more, but I feel like it's easier to rape a man. To rape a woman you need to physically dominate her, which is a fight, unless you drug her or something. A man just takes some manipulation and pressuring, and they'll crumble. Men don't resist because they're told not to hit a woman. Oh, and anytime a female teacher rapes a student, she isn't ever called a rapist by the media. It's never "Jane Richards rapes male student", and it's always "Male student sleeps with teacher". I guess boys are supposed to be honored to be sexually exploited by creepy women.

Most issues men have regard mental health, which at its current state doesn't get equal attention as to women's mental health. This is why men are less emotional. This is why men are generally more miserable. Men tend to feel more lonely, men tend to have less friends. Most suicides are men. Most criminals are men (and most crime is a result of bad mental health, not mental illness, so like misery or desperation and bad upbringing, less attention, and not being cared for in school or their community. I suppose men are usually more aggressive, but that aggression coming out is caused by mental issues or bad upbringing, both could be solved by care). Men rape more often (factor out date-rape, it's often because men feel too worthless or lonely, so they force their way to get what they want. This is NO justification, just an explanation for 15% to 40% of the cases).

There are significantly more homeless men and significantly more homeless shelters for women.

Men work the most dangerous jobs and take up the most work place fatalities.

Men are significantly more likely to be the victim of a non-domestic violent crime. Women are more likely to be the victim of any domestic violent crime.

Lastly, men are cannon fodder for wars. I support LGBT, but they get a whole month while soldiers and veterans only get a single day.

I've left out problems men have in court because I'm sure you're aware of them, and perhaps different men have different experiences. However, I believe men's biggest issue is how much we are valued as people and by extension, how our mental health impacts us.

duhhhh · 2022-07-08T21:01:53+00:00

Like these guys only brought up mens rights as an opponent to feminism, but didn’t seem to actually care about real issues plaguing men today(I.e Men getting sexually assaulted, men getting fucked in divorce proceedings etc).

What ideology blocks counting men raped by women as victims, blocks equality under rape laws, and removes due process rights for men accused of sexual misconduct in college?

What ideology works hard to block shared parenting bills and bills to end lifetime alimony unless there was a permanent disability during the marriage?

... Now do you understand why we talk about feminism so much?

BlockBadger · 2022-07-09T00:14:55+00:00

One reason you may often see them as reactionary is they have to justify their existence at all times, while also struggling to understand what they want and instead focusing on fighting what they don’t.

Feminists do it a lot too, with such things as yesallmen and the constant attacks on anything seen as masculine (so much so I don’t even know how to spell the word without spell check).

From a very young age they have been conditioned both by traditional values and feminism that they can’t do anything right bar serve and mimic women just without expressing any emotion, so they are going to go one of 4 ways, head down ignore the issue, join in hurting other men to make their own pain less and gain SJW points, rebel against tradition or rebel against feminism.

Due to the lack of tools they have, lack of education, and low self worth it’s likely to be messy and confused even if you can’t see that looking at them.

When 50% of teachers are male and drawing a tank in art does not get you disciplined for being unacceptable we might start to see more free thinking and self valued men, who can articulate their needs without simply lashing out at the closest thing to their cage.

WiiWynn · 2022-07-09T02:38:28+00:00

I can’t speak for all men, but I am just really irritated at the inconsistencies. There’s tons of them. Some just stereotypically comedic but others with real world damages.

A man can be shamed for being short but a woman cannot be shamed for being fat
A man is invited to be vulnerable, compassionate, emphatic, but those same traits will for the vast majority of women be unattractive in dating. In fact, it’s the assholes with dark triad behaviors that get laid
A man cannot be healthily sex positive, only a ‘creep’, but a sex positive woman is a free spirit
Young women are almost celebrated when they cheat, it’s a joke. Young men who cheat are not afforded the same pass.
A man can be crippled for a good portion of his adult life with crushing obligations for a child that isn’t his or didn’t want, but the woman’s right to choose is her own
A successful man is privileged and his hard work and achievements discredited, but a woman of any competence, even if average in her field, is celebrated as a hero
A man who gets upset to the point of losing his temper is ‘dangerous’ (written off as a menace to the community), but a woman that does the same has psychological trauma that should seek mental help support (afforded compassion as a victim)
A man that can’t provide for anyone but himself is seen as a loser, a woman that can’t even provide for herself is seen as a victim of the system or if she can just marry some guy with money, she’s now meeting expectations.

I personally am for women’s rights. Everyone should be afforded equal opportunity to pursue their dreams in a fair and equitable environment. But I also wish there was more respect and appreciation for the primal differences in men and women. We easily accept these differences in the animal kingdom, but for some reason we somehow believe as humans that evolved from the exact same natural world those objective characterizations of those differences don’t exist.

It’s fantasy. There are not only physical differences, but physiological and psychological differences that ought to be understood and considered.

Lastly, I’m rather irritated that there’s an inordinate amount of attention to trans rights, a ridiculous minute fraction of the population, but injustices for men, that make up half the population, is a niche concern and maybe even toxic to the uninformed.

donnasunderland123 · 2022-07-08T22:52:19+00:00

I do believe men have to be A B C. Society has lied to us & taught us otherwise.

My main beef is how we’re treated in the media. “33% of car accidents end in a woman’s death” is a VERY WEIRD fkn way of saying 67% of deaths are men.

Then the custody. Forget about it

We have no male influencers in our life. I have to resort to fkn YouTube. All my teachers growing up were women. Surrounded by women.

iainmf · 2022-07-09T01:30:05+00:00

To help men I think we need to explicitly include man and their needs in policy development. I made a short video about taking a 'human rights based approach' to men's rights, which covers a lot of what I think needs to happen.

One thing for you to consider is that feminism theory was developed with out including men's perspectives. I don't think you can understand gender relations by only looking at one gender.

Concepts like 'toxic masculinity' are not the result of asking men about their experiences and formulating a theory about them. It's based on looking at women's experiences and extrapolating. Anything feminists say about men should not be taken seriously because it comes from a flawed method to understand gender relations.

Stunning-Cost-5752 · 2022-07-08T21:17:49+00:00

I don't see many feminist joining up for anything to do with men's issues. I see more men joining women's issues. I'm biased as shit to the name feminist thanks to the mother. Plus the whole "privilege" BS to ignore issues when men talk, sure wish that "privilege" would have kick in when I was living in my car, eating out of a trash can and sleeping with a loaded gun to protect myself

Izalias · 2022-07-09T06:48:04+00:00

"So I have met a few anti-racists, and unfortunately I think the few I met were more in a reaction to racism. Like these guys only brought up anti-racism as an opponent to racism, but didn’t seem to actually care about real issues plaguing race theory."

If the above sounds ridiculous, that's how your opener sounds to us.

The litmus test is to just swap one concept out for a similar concept and see how it reads.

KissMyAsthma-99 · 2022-07-09T02:28:33+00:00

The #1 thing you can do is say all those things LOUDLY and REPEATEDLY to all your feminist friends. Granted, you won't be able to do it on reddit feminist forums because you'll get banned immediately, but in real life you should speak up for men.

Additionally, you need to spend time unlearning some of misinformation you probably believe. A deep dive into relevant topics will do wonders.

To answer your other question: toxic masculinity isn't real, nor is toxic femininity. Neither of the two genders are toxic, only certain individuals are.

TextDependent6779 · 2022-07-09T00:52:34+00:00

Personally I think it can be traced back to women.

bits of it can be traced back to women. cause, perpetuation, or indeed born from misogyny first.

Maybe this is wrong of me to think it comes from misogyny so I really want to hear differing points of view.

this already puts you leaps above some feminists that come here IMO.

anti-feminism? it tends to be common. we don't like ideas like patriarchy. far from being against women's rights, but we don't like the idea that it's all men causing all issues.

welcome! stick around a while and learn.

DirtyPartyMan · 2022-07-09T03:24:28+00:00

You are absolutely welcomed in peace.

Your questions are multi-faceted and needing more than a quick answer so I do hope you’ll excuse the length of this response.

[Note: This post and it’s contents are derived from Experience, Observation and Theoretical Hypothesis. Without further study some portions may qualify as Conjecture]

Most men between 18 and 40 are new to expressing a wide variety of emotional talking points. Some of the most difficult for us are emotions stemming from valuing and placing ourselves first. You’ve seen us. 103 fever and we haven’t gone to the hospital. Long cut on our skin, openly bleeding and we haven’t done anything to stop it. It’s an almost complete disregard for ourselves. To greater and lesser degrees we simply don’t put ourselves first. I would wager it’s one of the primary reasons our Mens Rights Movement isn’t widely known. Because, from our earliest memories, we were shown we come second in society.

“Ladies before Gentlemen.”
“Hold the door for a lady.”
“Never hit a lady.”
“When walking along a sidewalk with a lady, take the side closest to the road.”
Cover Dinner
“Work hard & Give All for your family.”

All things Father, Mothers and Society programs boys to believe is what they must do in order to Be A Man.

We go to war. We die. When we return women don’t want those who have disabilities. Either physically or mentally.

It’s all tied into our existential worth. Our value is measured in what we produce. Not who we are. Chris Rock said it: “Only Women, children and pets are loved unconditionally.”

Until we grow into being men we accept that role because every man in our lives reaffirms it. To summarize this point: Men may not even be aware of what they want to ask for until they learn that what they say isn’t whining. It has worth. Value. I feel the more we discover who we are outside of that societal mold the more we’ll speak up.

• Laws Changed: I am positive there are a few divorced men here who will read what I’m about to say and either know someone who’s experienced it or they’ve experienced it themselves.

Divorced Men with ex’s who use the children as a means to hurt him. As a means to fund her trips and expensive purchases. There’s no check and balance there. Only Checks. And this man, who he lost the family he worked for now works for her and only sees the kids every other weekend if it suits her plans or needs.
The courts didn’t care if he was a better parent. They just didn’t want the state to pay for it so they did what they always do to clear this case and move the day’s docket along. Rubber stamp mom as primary and move on. If he makes considerably more then the court adjusts and suddenly those children are worth So Much More! If he makes less than what the courts feel he “should” be making then there are no shortage of Judges who take out their own frustration and belittle this man before a packed courtroom. A group which often spills out into the hallway.
In other cases a one night stand of pleasure and fun has turned Into a living nightmare as the next 17 years of his work and earnings will be decided by others.
In a far worse case than that perhaps he was the one that won the promotion over his female colleague. Or he was the one that turned her down at a church party. Or he was the unlucky bastard who she decided to make an example of because she had to falsely accuse a man to pledge for her sorority. And now he’s immediately assumed Guilty until/if Proven Innocent.

When a Women becomes pregnant she decides for her body (rightfully so) but also for the baby’s body as well as the man’s body. Men have no choice. It’s on the same level of stripping someone of their choices just as we’ve seen with the repeal of RvW. Except Men have been expected to do so without question since the inception of Family Law. If they fight it now they’re labeled deadbeat dads. Losers.

If Laws were to change they would have to address these issues that ruin or end lives.

• Regarding Toxic Masculinity: Just as there are extreme views held by arguably unhinged women there are equally extreme views held by unhinged men.

What I feel may be the source of Toxic Men stems from two sources:

1.) Societal Conditioning that stunts emotional development.

2.) A sense of entrapment as I laid out earlier. Where Men feel the country they Work, Go to War and Die for is built like a Cage they can’t escape. If their emotional state were more developed they would be better equipped to go inward to The Box and work out why they felt that way. Then what they need to move themselves out of that confinement.

In Summary: Trapped, Afraid, Angry and Unsure how to change it causes men to lash out in their frustrated confusion. Unfortunately they often feel a need to have a focus for that rage in order to release the internal pressure.

Most healthy Men don’t hate women. They’re just tired of being taken advantage of.

I hope I answered your questions. Your original post was very open and helpful.

If you have questions I welcome conversation.

gratis_eekhoorn · 2022-07-08T21:34:17+00:00

> and unfortunately I think the few I met were more in a reaction to feminism.

Yes, because reaction against a hate movement that is there to demonize your entire gender is necessary.

> but didn’t seem to actually care about real issues plaguing men today(I.e Men getting sexually assaulted, men getting fucked in divorce proceedings etc)

Men are getting ''fucked'' in divorces thanks to the works of feminist organizations who have also made sure of men not being considered as rape victims by pressuring governments into not changing to gender neutral rape definitions.

> Where do you think sexism from men comes from? Personally I think it can be traced back to women. For example “you throw like a girl” or that women are more seen as the caretaker so men have to pay child support but don’t get the kids as often in divorces. Maybe this is wrong of me to think it comes from misogyny so I really want to hear differing points of view.

Because according to you feminists misandry cannot exist, if men are disadvantaged in something it must be because misogyny and male privilege backfiring at them.

d3ch01 · 2022-07-09T02:10:29+00:00

I know that this is long, but I would love your attention for this, if you have the time. I want to understand a feminist, and the part in your post regarding your desire to also pay attention to men's rights struck me. If you are available, let's talk..

I am curious what your perspective is on the following questions:

Do you think most subscribed feminists actively support men's rights?

If NO: In your experience, what percentage of subscribed feminists would you say actively seek to ignore men's issues/ make them worse?

Also:

What percentage of subscribed feminists claim they support men's rights, but stand by and focus more on women's rights?

If YES: Where do you find said subscribed feminists?

By "subscribed feminist" i refer to women/men who call themselves feminists or actively support and participate in feminist groups/projects (whenever I ask this question without adding "subscribed" prior to the word "feminist" I'm hit with "well those aren't true feminists, so no feminists do these things" which i personally find very obnoxious, almost like a strawman).

I ask because my encountering someone referring to themselves as a feminists has become somewhat of a redflag to me in the past few years due to the connotations I attribute to the term based on my history with them. (In my experience) the feminists that are most vocal and most active in the community are some of the most sexist people I have ever met and many actively seek to undercut men in some way shape or form.

That said, I always hear other people writing those actions off as something that "a fake feminist" would do. I have even used the term "toxic feminists" and even then I was berated for saying that because "the toxic feminists aren't true feminists."

If that was the case, then one could say that "toxic Christians" aren't "Christian" either, so the people being ostracized by toxic Christians should still have no issue at all with Christianity since no "real christian" has ever wronged them.

It also begs the question: why do the self-prescribed "true feminists" cling to the movement when they know it is rampant with sexism and misandry? Unless, of course, they somehow do not see what I see in how toxic modern day feminism is these days, I haven't a clue why anyone would want to be a part of such a movement (especially when taking into account the fact that many hardcore feminists also happen to be atheist, having left Christianity because of the hypocrisy, but then turn around and seem to participate in hypocrisy on the daily, just in a different context; in a political context, as opposed to a religious one).

Note that I believe in the christian god, and I believe in the Bible, but I do not call myself christian. Martin Luther left catholicism, the sole reason being: Catholicism was not practicing what Martin Luther believed it should stand for. It was corrupt and evil and it was time to abandon it.

I think this is a fantastic approach to adopt when dealing with any movement that you believe in. Do you believe in the purpose of the movement? Yes? Great. But do you also believe in the direction your fellow supporters are headed and do you believe in their methods to carry out their interpretation of the movement's purpose? No? Then I say it is time to leave.

Thus why I left Christianity. It is a movement with, what I believe, a worthy cause, but my fellow Christians, the one's I love, I adore, but the one's that stand for everything I don't believe in, have ruined it for me and I believe it is time to abandon it.

Regardless of one's religious background/perspective I believe Martin Luther's methods of dealing with corrupt movements is an admirable one.

I used to be feminist until I saw the blatant and unapologetic sexism. So I became Men's rights activist. However I also see sexism there too. So although I am part of this sub, I am neither feminist nor MRA.

A movement isn't defined by what it's supposed to stand for. It is defined by the actions of it's members. In my opinion, I believe you should refrain from joining or staying with any movement that focuses more on one gender than another. Become an egalitarian like me. We stand for what feminism should be, as well as what the MRM should be. And we have moved away from the sexists and the bigots.

What do you think of my thoughts?

Your response would mean a lot.

Successful-Advanced · 2022-07-09T03:25:57+00:00

If you don't mind me asking this question, how has your opinion changed since posting this and what new things have you learned?

z770i1 · 2022-07-09T00:03:23+00:00

The one thing I want to focus on is banning circumcision, religiously aswell, because FGM is protected. Norway passed a law on religious mutilation for baby boys in 2015, against two votes. Seems the place is filled with pedophiles, justifying mutilation on baby boys.

DrugDoer9000 · 2022-07-09T03:50:56+00:00

Nothing is considered heinous by mass media unless women or children are victimized, and that’s just a reflection of society’s lack of empathy for men in general

Take the Ukraine war for example. Obviously the western powers would like to raise support for Ukraine, so the media shovels down our throat how women and children are being displaced, becoming refugees, getting captured/rape etc. Now don’t get me wrong, these are all horrible things, but what you’ll see a lot less coverage of is the Ukrainian men with no desire to fight forced to throw their bodies into the meat grinder against their will, because this would reflect poorly on the resolve of Ukraine and look bad on the global stage. This is of course a direct result of gender stereotypes, openly supported our backwards culture that simultaneously shouts from the hills for equality, that men and women are the same in capability and deserve the same treatment and that females are constantly oppressed, when in reality when it comes to matters of significance like family, occupation among other life or death issues, men get the short end of the stick.

To me a draft is no different morally than slavery, government mandated prostitution, forced birth, etc. It’s the literal maximum extent the government can control your body short of shooting innocent people on the spot, yet the issue always escapes news cycles because frankly society as a whole views men as disposable worker bees that can be thrown at problems with no repercussions

ZenofZer0 · 2022-07-09T03:52:06+00:00

First off, that was a helluva(n) initial post. I would love to go line by line and address each point you made but I do not have time to fully address it as each point made is a fairly large subject to tackle so I will add my 2¢ on one that’s near and dear to my heart. That’s toxic masculinity. I think it’s hard to really nail down because it is by definition vague and subject to each person’s perception. I see two ways that this trickles down and I’ll summarize it with a story my son came home and told me after being at his mother’s house. He fell down the stairs and somehow his hand hit the basement floor really hard and it was really swollen throughout the whole hand (I got the pictures). He was about 6 at the time and he cried when it happened. His stepdad told him that “[his mom and stepdad] needed to toughen him up.” I found that infuriating because I do not see any correlation between strength/resilience and tears. What I do see is that weak men try to ignore their feelings and project this ideology that provokes a whole swath of potential mental issues but it gives them some way to believe that they themselves are “the strongest of men.”

Conversely, there’s a lot of silliness attached to this word when I hear the more feminist-types say it as well. I don’t believe that if you and your friends are rough-housing or daring eachother to do something stupid but relatively harmless that it is a form of evil. If we want to get into the evolutionary biology of it, humans like just about every other social animal have hierarchies. Due to the expanded prefrontal cortex of humans, we express and maneuver these hierarchies a bit differently than scratching, biting, and growling and that it is fairly natural. Please understand that this is not me trying to validate chauvinism or blatant violence though. Once again, I trace that back to weak impotent men trying to prove that they are more than they really are... or an entitled brat. Neither one is manly behavior in my opinion. Anyways, I hope I gave you something worth reading.

Slow_Hand_1976 · 2022-07-09T05:04:46+00:00

That's a lot to think about, but I'll try toxic masculinity. The traits of toxic masculinity, agression, anger, violence, etc. are the product of a million years of evolution. We are all the prosterity of people who survived because of toxic masculinity. It's in our blood.

Now women hate these same traits, but wait, evolution made us this way. We can't just turn it off or it's very difficult. It's like that Star Trek show where the society artificially made warriors, but then wanted to throw them away when they won the war because the men were too violent.

So, do you see the problem. You want us when you want protection from your enemies who will rape you and kill your children, but otherwise you want nothing to do with us. Does that make sense?

PrimeWolf88 · 2022-07-09T06:24:41+00:00

Even Reddit's rules are blatantly sexist and racist against white men, and they've doubled down on it. Society is fucked.

2022-07-09T06:47:05+00:00

Society to man: "Don't cry like a girl"

I don't particularly like this idea, but this does not at all imply that it's wrong to be a girl or being girl is bad or inferior.

What it does imply is that for a man it is wrong to cry like a girl. They never say it is wrong for a girl to cry like a girl. It might make the man less good of a man, but it does not say anything about women being inferior. It's a traditional gender roles thing.

Why is that wrong? For a man it's not okay to cry like a girl, because that makes him feel emasculated.

This is where things get interesting. Feminists being mostly women don't understand what emasculation is like, or how serious of an impact it can have on men's mental health. They can't fathom it.

As much as ‘toxic masculinity’ hurts men, so does emasculation.

But feminists can't help men with that because it looks offensive to them. A man is feeling emasculated? Does he feel he is being more like a woman? Oh does he think being womanly and hence a woman is bad? No. He's wrong in thinking so. So they label this kind of masculinity toxic.

They place heavy emphasis on the idea that men should express their emotions like women do, which does seems to come from a place of empathy and benefitting them, but they don't think properly about the consequences of it for the man. Such a man will need safe-spaces at every step, need to be protected, and women along with the society will hate him.

You want men to make themselves vulnerable, but people unconsciously hate and resent a man who makes himself vulnerable who should rather be risking his life in defense of something more valuable. To be vulnerable is to lose power, and we are all in a quest for power. Most rulers of the world are men, but most men are not the rulers of the world.

RedHokk · 2022-07-09T11:58:01+00:00

Men's rights activists usually fight feminists because feminist theory demonizes men. The notion that half of the population (men) have been opressing the other half (women) for thousands of years until feminism came to save women is hate speech. Most of us recognize that both men and women suffer from sexism in society and enforced gender roles. Most of us recognize women and men should have equal rights under the law. Feminism is not just the fight for equality for women, is a divisive narrative born out of the shells of class opression theory (socialism). A lot of women are attracted by the narrative of equal rights and have no idea what they are buying into.

stompin77 · 2022-07-09T15:23:22+00:00

Simple...feminism no longer want equal rights. They want women superiority at the xpense of men, family and society. They care not the affect their agenda will have on anyone. They are selfish and only think of themselves or they get caught up in collective man hating group think, then they justify it all with feelings and no facts. They refuse to listen to reason or facts. Toxic masculinity is feminism. The term is used to shame men, but if you break those words down to their actual meaning, it is women who are typically feminine, therefore any form of masculinity would then be toxic to their feminine side. Hence why feminists display toxic masculinity. They then try to turn the term onto men which is factually incorrect. If a man is masculine he is not toxic, he is a man. Men are supposed to be masculine. There is nothing toxic about it. Just the fact you throw that term around shows how indoctrinated you are. Sad really. Why are feminists so anti male and anti family? Why do feminists look down on traditional women who believe in traditional families? Most women I know can't stand feminism and say it doesn't represent them or their beliefs. So why foes feminism assume it speaks for all women when.it clearly does not even speak for the majority or anything close. Feminism is a fringe group of disgruntled toxicly masculine females who wish to blame men for the problems of the world. Most feminists end up sad and lonely through no fault of men, but by their own actions and beliefs and behaviours. When will feminists acknowledge their part in the huge suicide rates of men and in particular single fathers? When I see feminists arguing in courts for their daughters rights to see their dads, then I will consider a change in my attitude. When I see feminists in court calling out false allegations against men, then I will consider changing my attitude.

EmirikolWoker · 2022-07-09T05:05:49+00:00

What is your take of toxic masculinity.

If you could separate the toxicity from masculinity, what would be left that isn't a gender neutral trait?

sparkydoggowastaken · 2022-07-09T02:59:09+00:00

thanks for not being an asshole.
i dont think sexual harassment is an issue for men? ive had one or two but i think most women have had more.
i dont think women caused it. i think it was the same old white men 100, 200, 300 years ago that fucked women are the ones fucking men too. many feminists see it as “men acted like that in the past, they must act like that now” but its been horrible for everyone and i think they were just plain stupid.
toxic masculinity is bs to me. men whos personality is them being a man is horrible because theyre the ones perpetuating the gender stereotypes. you can be just some guy, not a manly man. basically if you only screw yourself or help yourself, no judgement, if youre bad to others youre bad, if youre good to others youre good. toxic masculinity/femininity fall on the “harming others” side for me.
thanks again for being nice. i support open minded people, especially on issues as divided as this one. have a nice weekend :)

Forsaken_Mode_2173 · 2022-07-09T04:13:19+00:00

About your first question. The first problem here is that you are separating things that may show up together. I have to say to you that we should keep discussions happening AND do this reactionary thing because it IS a reaction to feminism as it is today. We can’t understand the historical movements around the manosphere without feminism as it is today. I spent the last decade trying to talk with feminists about men’s issues... And I’ve got all the kinds of answers you can think of to avoid giving any woman the responsibility to give a proper answer to our problems. As a reaction to this behavior, we are settling the foundations of our way of talking about our problems without feminists.
About sexism. Sexism is a behavior that may have come from a lot of different directions. There are all kinds of emotional and social problems that can trigger sexism in both sexes. We can’t sit and try to trace this kind of thing. However, we can investigate its connections to any of these issues or directions. For example, I like to think about "sex paranoia" as a sexism source. I think it happens with both sexes. It isn’t hard to understand. We all get ourselves into sex-defined groups and talk about the fear of being stolen, sued, losing family, losing children, getting beaten and so on. But most of us, men and women, don't really live those things.
About toxic masculinity. I don’t think we are able to talk properly about toxic masculinity. for two reasons. The first one is that this is a concept made by feminists to point out masculine behavior as toxic. But there isn’t a clear definition of what is toxic maculinity. So it's a fancy way of saying "men bad." There are all around the internet, feminists, telling each other that masculinity cannot be non-toxic. So I won’t talk about it with a feminist until someone, me or the movement, settles on a proper approach to talking about it.
But let me give you a hint. Cis men are not worried about being that way or this way. Like "men can’t cry". This is history. Most men are fine with these stereotypical things. The only time this kind of thing is a problem is when a woman tries to use it to verbally attack some man. Our main problem right now is that we are seeing channels of communication being closed for men to talk about themselves in many levels of society. 30 years ago, a guy could call a woman from the office to take a coffee break. Today, it is too risky. But you can find lesbian women talking about how they hit on women with words we can't use anymore. The same thing is happening all around western society in other kinds of communication too. Men cannot talk openly about their problems, like Johnny Depp.

Viesegel · 2022-07-09T04:14:20+00:00

Men should be allowed to cry without fear of being judged.

And, more importantly, men should be allowed to be silent about their emotions without being judged.

hedic · 2022-07-09T08:56:24+00:00

I'm going to respond to the reactionary part of you post. Many people on this sub only realized the issue after being subject some sort of abuse. Then they saw the disregard society held for their pain. Anyone would be angry after that. They lash out. It's not optimal but it's just a human fact. The important thing is groups like ours that can regulate that and turn it towards good instead of extremism.

Johnathan_wickerino · 2022-07-09T14:33:01+00:00

men can't talk about anything without being labelled something derogatory have relationship problems. labeled incel. have anger problems. labeled a baby.

Men are judged way too much for their height, hobbies and how many people they have sex with not their values or virtues because according to some women they can be "faked"

DavidByron2 · 2022-07-08T21:24:49+00:00

but didn’t seem to actually care about real issues

So you're saying they were like feminists? Well there's a possible difference here. Feminists don't care about issues and actively oppose sex equality by spreading hate. As such opposing feminism is itself a legitimate issue just like opposing any hate movement is legitimate.

Men getting sexually assaulted, men getting fucked in divorce proceedings etc

Both issues where feminists lobby for anti-male legislation and institutional practices.

What are some things we as a society can do for men?

Well it's much the same as with Nazis or the KKK or South African apartheid. The feminist movement representing the bigoted power, must be dismantled and repudiated by society. The victims must get an apology. Society as a whole has to say "We are sorry for allowing feminist hate to run everything to do with sex for 100 years. We recognize the harm these hate mongers have done and we denounce that movement and will stop passively or actively supporting it. Men are people too. Men deserve to be treated with decency and equality. Our laws and the practices of our institutions must change to support equality. Our history must be changed to be true and not a promotion of hate." Something like that. A truth and reconciliation process as South Africa put it.

for me as a feminist I believe that if my activism doesn’t include men I’m not doing enough.

All feminist activism is about spreading hatred of men so I'm sure you do your part.

Where do you think sexism from men comes from?

From you and other tradcons. As to why does the government financially support feminists and Nazis and other hate movements like so-called "radical" Muslims the answer is that they use violence to control and divide the working class. Feminism has proven it is very good at dividing the working class.

What is your take of toxic masculinity

It's a feminist hate slogan. Like saying black people are lazy.

LettuceBeGrateful · 2022-07-09T15:24:59+00:00

What are some things we as a society can do for men? Change some laws?

I completely forgot to touch upon reproductive rights at the time, but here's a list I made recently of tangible changes we could make to help men:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/vns4rc/i_told_an_hr_administrator_to_stop_saying_that_i/ie9t8g5

i_hate_coding_ · 2022-07-09T15:28:51+00:00

Respect to you for asking directly.

In answer to " what can society do for men?"

I think we should raise boys with a sense of value. We should tell them they are worth something from birth because at the moment, boys are programmed to CHASE value because they don't believe they have it already.

Then belief is " one day you will be worth something, you just have to get enough money/power/sex"

This is what causes a lot of problems between the sexes in regards to men in my opinion. Like, how some men can't take "no" for an answer when they ask a woman out no matter how reasonable the woman is being. Because they aren't hearing " you aren't my type/ I'm not into you." They are hearing " you aren't good enough, you are beneath me" and that is ridiculous, I know. But that's what they have been taught to hear, they have been taught that if they don't get the girl, get the promotion, get the money that their life Is meaningless.

And I think that plays into the " reaction" to feminism. Whether you want to admit it or not there is a HUGE problem with man hate within most feminist communities, and men who are already struggling with their self worth aren't gonna want to listen to how a very popular group thinks the world would be better off without them, after hearing that on all forms of social media it brings an aggressive need to go " you know what? Fuck you, we have problems too" and I think that's where a lot of the hostility comes from.

But yeah, I think we need to actually show men they have value . Allow them to show the same pride of being that women have recently got without labelling them as a misogynist.

I think the reason most men come off as anti feminist is because ,regardless what is said on an individual basis , feminism today comes off as anti male.

If we show love and appreciation to men ( the kind they didn't even get under the full blown patriarchy of the past) we would probably see a drop on crime as well as a greater number of men fighting for equality on all ends. Progress would be made

Mediocre_Attempt_690 · 2022-07-09T15:47:45+00:00

I often feel as a a man that if i dont provide anything im just useless. I think from the steriotype that men are providers, and are usful for nothing more than baby batter.

Puzzleheaded-Heat174 · 2022-07-09T02:54:56+00:00

the few I met were more in a reaction to feminism. Like these guys only brought up mens rights as an opponent to feminism, but didn’t seem to actually care about real issues plaguing men today(I.e Men getting sexually assaulted, men getting fucked in divorce proceedings etc).

I think this was a projection

AnAgentOfMyOwnMaking · 2022-07-09T00:17:53+00:00

You asked about changing laws and removing the necessary “a, b, and c” qualities to be man. That seems to be a frequent concern I notice from feminism-centered perspectives.

There’s a great deal men can learn from certain aspects of masculinity being static. For one, many men actually thrive on willingly taking responsibility upon themselves, and I would include being decisive and as well-intentioned as possible with given information when making decisions. Some go further in their definition by including the desire to be protective and to provide for their loved ones. There’s nobility in these aims, and many times it appears as if they exist anathema to the aims of modern women being independent. They don’t have to be, and yet they somehow become that way.

That dichotomy between what some (what I would refer to as a small minority) aspects of feminism are promoting and what men are seeking from responsibility in their masculinity is precisely why Jordan Peterson has risen prominence.

thegreatrodent · 2022-07-09T02:54:30+00:00

Nothing to really add here that the others haven't already touched upon. Just wanted to say kudos for coming here to talk. It takes courage (even online) to go into "hostile territory" as it will, but I'm sure you'll find that most of us are willing and open to talk without resorting to name calling.

Hope the discussion is beneficial.

RoubandoMerdina · 2022-07-09T02:47:46+00:00

Feminism is garbage fed to sheep. It was never about equality and it didn't achieve many "major wins for women in the fight for equality" as feminists like to claim. People need to start studying the origins of feminism and knowing about some key names like Simone du Beauvoir and what they used to say.

It's just another tool used to destroy tradicional western values, tackling the traditional family the most. Now, I'm not a conservative, nor a liberal. I'm somewhere in the middle where I think some progress is good but what works already should not be changed without logical reasoning. I also don't believe we should all be free to do whatever we want, nor the opposite. There should be fair laws and we all should strive to make them fairer.

The current feminist fight doesn't strive to make anything fair when they make the already more than debunked wage gap one of their primary fights. The poundmetoo (#metoo) movement also doesn't paint anyone in a good light. "Believe all women?". Well, aren't women also human beings just like men? Why should I believe women and not believe men? I mean, in this context one is telling the truth, the other is lying, why should the one telling the truth always be the woman? Men's movements aren't as popular, or as active. Most here just want to fight against what feminism is bringing which is fucking up men. When you don't get the job you worked your ass to get because they had a quota or 50% women and some incompetent one got in because she's a woman who applied for a job in which 90% of the applicants were men, that's a potential rMensRights subscriber.

What should improve?

No mention of sex in any law. In general, every human being is equal in the eyes of justice. This is a basilar christian value but I believe it is one most people in a western society can find common understanding.
- This would make paternal leave equal to maternal leave. In this matter you either remove it for both which would make no sense, or give it to both to make things equal regarding the employer. Personally, I couldn't care less about this, I'd be fine working and providing for my family if I had a loving wife taking care of the house and making my kids are safe at home, not forcing them to spend more time with educators whose moral values I cannot pick, passing them to my kids and poisoning my inner circle. However, this seems to be an important topic for women so if they want equality here, there you go.
- It also should work for child custody (split 50/50 if both parents are deemed competent for parenthood instead of giving preference to the mother). Alimony rules should just go (it used to be important in the past where women didn't go to work, it doesn't make sense in the current context).
- In general, innocent until proven guilty for anyone. This shouldn't even be a question.

Wanting anything else isn't equality. Now that I've given my general opinion I'll answer your questions.

Basketballjuice · 2022-07-09T05:43:03+00:00

First thing I'd like to do is reword the discussion. "Toxic masculinity" and "toxic femininity", as well as "patriarchy" in some cases, are buzzwords that keep us playing the blame game instead of trying to find a solution to society's problems caused by the real thing that causes issues, that being traditionalism.

Second thing I'd like to do is teach people to call out sexism and harassment when we see it.

The amount of times that I've read and heard women say that men are trash, that men have failed them, etc. is just... sickening. Those words hurt and women pretend it's a non-issue.

That second thing is part of a bigger problem, and that's that to society, man-issues are non-issues.

Did you know that men are more likely to develop MOST cancers?

Did you know that men have their own version of menopause? it's called andropause. Look it up.

Did you know that men die several years younger, even in the most misogynistic countries in the world?

Did you know that HPV causes cancer in men, almost as much as it does in women?

Chances are you didn't know at least most of those things, and that's because things that disproportionately affect women, even by fractions of a percent, are treated as women only issues. Hell, I've seen things that affect men several times as much be treated as women issues (war, suicide, etc.).

For things that affect women, women are most cared for.

For things that affect both sexes, women are most cared for.

For things that affect men a bit more, women are still most cared for.

But when something affects men so overwhelmingly that it's insane to suggest otherwise, that's when it gets swept under the rug.

When was the last time you saw action about workplace deaths?

When was the last time you saw action about kiddy diddlers in the church?

How about wrongful imprisonment, or ridiculous sentencing?

Look up what happens when a female teacher rapes her students versus when a male teacher does it. Look closely at the wording that's used and what the differences are.

Hell, just look at how fast people forgot that Ukraine is holding almost every man in the country hostage. Yeah, that's still happening. They are still chained to a WARZONE. Imagine how different things would have gone not if only women were sent, but if they included women at all in the draft. Zelensky'd be called a barbarian.

To answer your questions, traditionalism is the problem, we need to reword our movements, and we need to really look at everything that's advocated for, because injustice is a lot more common than people let on.

IngoTheGreat · 2022-07-09T07:23:07+00:00

What are some things we as a society can do for men?

The mischaracterization of genital structures such as the ridged band and frenular delta as "extra skin" causes parents to consent to have their infant sons circumcised when they don't even know what they are agreeing to have removed from their sons' bodies.

The idea that male sexual anatomy can legitimately be surgically altered by force, despite a lack of medical indication, because "boys are dirty and won't wash" and other such nonsensical rationales, is frankly dehumanizing.

Educating oneself and then correcting mistaken yet unfortunately common ideas about non-therapeutic circumcision, like the idea that the sensory structures it ablates are of no value, would help the cause of protecting men's human rights.

Here are some helpful resources on that note:

Cold and Taylor, 1999 (PDF, NSFW)

Lempert, 2022

Nordic Association for Clinical Sexology, 2013 (PDF)

GT121950 · 2022-07-09T09:24:43+00:00

Ok finally I found a feminist that isn’t crazy or too angry to believe they could be wrong. Also at this point is supporting equality really feminism? Like so many feminists are girls and the word feminist is always paired with being woke or being a girl. Let me put it this way. If you were to say that water is wet but a large majority of people think it isn’t would it still be wet in peoples eyes. If you say nazism is actually meant for people who support people who are blonde with blue eyes when no one else actually acts to support that claim would it be true. If you were to say that kkk is a group supporting black people then would you say that only real members aren’t racist. People always say a real feminist supports men and women but it really doesn’t seem that way

jmcsquared · 2022-07-09T11:48:07+00:00

So do you guys try to always keep these important discussions happening or is it more of a reactionary thing?

As far as what men's right is for me (I can only speak for myself here), it's probably a little of both. It's certainly that I want to address systemic issues against men (e.g., circumcision, selective service and expendability, divorce discrimination). But I also recognize what I consider to be legitimate places to criticize feminism, one of those critiques being that they don't address men's issues, which I'd expect if feminism cared about equality generally. I won't deny that I find what feminism has become problematic.

Like for me as a feminist I believe that if my activism doesn’t include men I’m not doing enough.

Then you're one of the "good" feminists, i.e., one of the feminists who believes in advancing equality and not just women's rights or punching up. I applaud you, I just think you're more and more becoming part of the minority. That's my perception of the current sociocultural state of feminism as a movement.

What is your take of toxic masculinity. For me, just like toxic femininity, it basically stumbles upon society’s rules implemented on how to be a man or woman. And in my opinion that’s bullshit.

You'll probably hear different takes on this from different guys. For me, I agree with you completely. I just wish people stopped pretending that the "toxic masculinity" is the one to worry about and never mention "toxic femininity." I never use either of these terms myself, but I notice the former being addressed more intensely/frequently than the latter.

Basically my philosophy is fuck what everyone thinks, do what makes you happy.

You should make plenty of friends here.

DeadSkullMonkey · 2022-07-09T14:43:51+00:00

What can we do about it? Well for a start maybe treating toxic people like they are, toxic. Even women. This hive mind mindset need to go if you want true equality. If your sister, girlfriend or whatever other girl in your social circle acts out and does stupid or evil shit, you need to jump in. We as men can't, you think a woman will listen to a man nowadays? We will get not only attacked by all females, but also by all simps/white knight males..

Example: We need to focus on the act, not the person. If someone cheats, someone cheats. Not "ooh she wasn't fulfilled" or "he didn't make her happy". So it's understandable. No fucking dammit.

2022-07-09T15:05:06+00:00

My main issue is that it has been made socially acceptable to bash men and blame us, as a whole, for all of the problems that exist in the world. Shitty people exist of both sexes and all colors. Men’s mental health is looked down upon instead of ever being addressed. We have an entire generation of young men which are growing up in a world that is telling them that they are terrible due to their gender. The impact this has on the male psyche is horrendous.

Not to mention disparity in family courts, prison sentencing, and higher education. I don’t believe that laws need to be passed for our “rights” because we have rights… I just think that society needs to start giving a fuck.

We’re disposable and it’s 100% your fault as a feminist that we feel this way. I have never done anything to hold any woman back, I have never harmed any woman, and, as a matter of fact, I have sworn an oath to be helpful and charitable to all humanity.

dependency_injector · 2022-07-09T15:36:43+00:00

What are some things we as a society can do for men? Change some laws?

Yes, pretty much this. It should reformulate all the laws to not mention any gender at all.

SteveorJimmyorJack · 2022-07-09T20:55:18+00:00

I aprecciate your iniciative.

There are many reasons why men should complain, but trying to keep as brief as possible, I give the example of the very first women in Australia who sucessfully sued a man. I googled that, but I coudn´t find her name. Saw on a documentary about the history of Australia.

A women was promissed to marry by a very rich man, but suddenly he changed his mind. (Men don´t rush into a relationship, and specially to marriedge, as a man I conclude that if he decided to marry her, is because he was sure of what he wanted, but if then he decided not to marry, obviously he saw something that he didn´t like) so, he backed out. She sued him for that, saying that he failed his promisse. She wanted a lot of money, maybe 30 million or so, the court condemned the man to pay her about 12 million. (I am not sure, but something like that, ridiculously big). Women rejoiced with this female "victory". The public opinion still sees this as the man was the bad guy, who "lied" to her. I see this way: she, the scammer, was never interested on him, just on his money, and after losing a rich fianceé, she managed to still get his money.

2 centuries after, here in Portugal, a women who lived with a man for over 15 years, was put out of his home. She asked then for unemployement subsidies, which was denied to her; she asked for illness subsidy, for minimal income (is a subsidy that we have here in Portugal to maintain the poor), everything was denied to her. She never asked for a job! She said that she was ill and couldn´t work. So, she sued her ex (he was not even married to her), claiming that she was his "slave", working for him all those years. He was condemned to pay her an huge amount of money, which with his salary, he won´t be able to pay. He will work his entire life for her, as he did before.

The woman was ill (she claimed) but still she was his slave... All the income of the house was from him. Only based on these facts, I can asure that she never washed a dish on that house! I know this kind. He was working out and in home. But my point is: a women points a finger to a man, and he is immediatly guilty. No one will listen to him! He was her slave all those years, and she managed to keep him slave for his entire life!!!

I guess this is enough. If you have any more doubts, I give you names: Michael Jackson; Charles Chaplin; Morgan Freeman; Johnny Depp; his friend Marilyn Manson (which is going through the same) and Twiggy Ramirez, from the same band, also him. His friend Marilyn Manson kicked him out of the band at the time when he was accused of rape by his former girlfriend; Bill Cosby (which I thought that was guilty because he confessed. Now I know that a confession doesn´t mean guilty, only means that he accepted a deal - confess and spend 2 years in jail, instead of claiming innocence and get 25 years)

For a man, his honor and public image is everything. If someone takes it from him, is worse than killing him! If someone is accused of rape, his whole life is destroyed even if he is proven innocent afterwards. In jail, other prisioners will lynch him, or gang rape him. He will never tell anyone about that. Will suffer in silence after he gets out of prison. His family will never speak to him again. His kids will turn their back on him, and let´s not forget the colateral damage: his family and friends will be affected too.

arbelhod · 2022-07-10T03:43:34+00:00

Well, you wrote a lot so I'm just going to react to the first paragraph,

all the problems you talked about (divorce injustice, rape, sexual assaults) do have a part with feminism,

child support is a feminist idea, or atleast the woman that thought that this is a good Idea, and the woman that made it in to the law were feminists.

Men getting raped and sexual assaulted is a bit more complicated. So it's not like that a feminist decided one day to rape a man and the other ones were like, "yeah let's do this". It's more like that when a man get raped, he can't talk about it, because the feminist idea of "belive all women". And even if you don't support it, a lot of people do, in fact, enough people so it would be near impossible to men to sue a woman for sexual assault/ rape (and let's don't even talk about proving that he didn't rape a woman). Men are getting raped and that's terrible, but that's not what make it special, women get raped too. The difference is that when a woman is getting raped she has a lot of support from friends or even strangers at the social media that don't even know if she really did get raped. If a man is getting raped, at the best case scenario, his friends would laugh at him and invite him to a cup of bear cuz nobody will believe him, and that's a thing that feminism caused.

Conscious_Ad_6572 · 2022-07-09T04:24:50+00:00

Irrational and every point feminism ducked up my marriage,

Also I see a strong future where my cousin sister is going to Rick fuck up her as well

also women can’t accept that most women can’t think for themselves

Frankly_George · 2022-07-09T13:59:38+00:00

Oh, look it's this thread again...

Tell us OP, are you concerned? Are you really really concerned? And do you really want to know why men have become so gosh darn angry all the time? Does that anger concern you?

(We've got #1 concern, and #2 one of the anti-male shaming tactics right out of the gate. Does anyone even doubt that this is a concern troll? I'd bet a careful reading would show up more anti-male shaming tactics too for a nice game of bingo. I'm just so tired of these games....)

dreadnaut91 · 2022-07-09T15:11:31+00:00

So do you guys try to always keep these important discussions happening or is it more of a reactionary thing?

In the real world and most places online you cant really bring up mens rights without it being an argument instead of a debate. We don't like being labeled as creeps or incels and bringing it up leads to being insulted 90% of the time, so we don't, unless the topic is already opened up. I'm part of a few mens rights communities on smaller parts of the internet and behind closed doors those men do support each other. I read stories about men who are going through those issues you want us to talk about. We just don't feel safe doing it around you.

What are some things we as a society can do for men? Change some laws? Break free from “men have to be a, b, c to be a man”. Like for me as a feminist I believe that if my activism doesn’t include men I’m not doing enough

Women need to start holding each other accountable. They need to call out female on male abuse in public. Stop making excuses every time a woman does something bad. When you say things like "my body my choice" but don't apply it to circumcision it just turns us away.

Where do you think sexism from men comes from? Personally I think it can be traced back to women.

Men want sex and will do pretty much anything to get it. If women only give sex to toxic men then more men will become toxic to get sex. If women today decided that open and honest men were the sexiest things alive then men would scramble to become just that. Since communication between the sexes has broken down we don't know what the other side wants anymore. Now a lot of guys think all girls are this way or that way and nothing in between and vice versa.

What is your take of toxic masculinity.

It's not real. There are bad behaviors like being too arrogant but that's not limited to masculinity. If a women cheats I'm going to call it cheating, not toxic femininity.

peaceful_executive · 2022-07-09T18:40:29+00:00

I think we live through a time where it has become mainstream to propagate feminism publicly but personally demand a very traditional set of deliverables towards men. There is a lot of hypocrisy in which woman aren’t liberated but the least of all men. Just look at suicide rates woman vs. man to see the impact. The difference is shocking and almost never acknowledged.

SillyCommunist · 2022-07-08T21:15:57+00:00

It varies from person to person, I have definitely seen posts here that are very reactionary and not really dealing with real issues or are just overblown. I personally am more about tackling issues like the lack of mental health support for men and the way men showing their feelings is stigmatized, the way the legal system a lot of times sides with women over the man no matter what in divorce cases, and the way men a lot of the time is just automatically assumed to be guilty in a lot of cases, things like that. I believe true feminists and true men’s rights activists should be able to agree and work together on a lot of things and it’s really just the extremists on both sides that push the majority of the other people on the other sides away and give both groups a bad rap.

Sirhugh66 · 2022-07-08T23:56:18+00:00

HI, I'M A FEMINIST COMING IN PEACE. WHY ARE MEN SO SHIT?

macobus · 2022-07-09T03:08:01+00:00

u/clenson7 : the mra whisperer

Azihayya · 2022-07-09T15:55:55+00:00

I think the MRA community here largely doesn't focus on men's rights as an issue and hyperbolizes as much as possible to reinforce gender class issues, when in reality the broader community of men does not have these biases. Most guys here don't pay attention to women's communities and won't admit that the problems that women have are real. It's a pretty unhealthy movement, imo, even when members are bringing up salient issues, it tends to be clouded by hyperbole.

OneCannabis · 2022-07-09T03:45:18+00:00

ADHD

AyyLmaoAV · 2022-07-09T03:47:35+00:00

First of all I think you vow for equailty not maschism or feminism bs...

I also think this community vows the same maybe and naturally more towards men support

RemindMeBot · 2022-07-09T07:08:17+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Jbeast701 · 2022-07-09T10:36:36+00:00

Honestly I think the main thing is that society has this sort of structure created around what is it to be a man and if you don’t meet this criteria then you’re out of luck. With women it seems like now a lady can be anything, anyone, and how ever she sees fit to live her life and is still regarded as the women’s woman.

Nothing wrong with a lady being able to live how she sees fit but the issue is men don’t really get that freedom of choice or expression. You have certain categories to fit into and if you don’t really find that space well then, what are you?

I_am_not_a_defect · 2022-07-09T18:34:32+00:00

What is your take of toxic masculinity.

It should be renamed to misandry. "Toxic masculinity" is just a feminist attempt to co-opt men's issues and make it seem like it's all self-inflicted. If feminists can't even use the correct language and would rather prefer to avoid calling anti-male rhetoric for what it is, which is misandry, then how can I trust them to solve my issues? They can't even get the words right, what makes you think they're going to get the actions right?

I_am_not_a_defect · 2022-07-09T18:38:36+00:00

What even is "reactionary" supposed to mean? Shit happens and I react to it. So what, I'm not allowed to react to things now? If someone does something bad to you, are you not supposed to resist and push back? If fighting for men's rights and being against misandry is "reactionary" then I'm glad to be one.

AManWithBinoculars · 2022-07-09T19:33:52+00:00

Honestly, most people in this reddit (and me) are the traditional sense feminists. As its defined (not what it became). Specifically Feminism has traditionally been defined as Equal rights for both sexes. But instead, Feminism has become just about women's rights. MensRights should be a feminist topic, but we're now called incels for defending men. We're shunned from the feminists discussions. We're silenced, and we're dismissed or ignored because we want equal rights across the board.

The fact its not is a hint at whats wrong. We're hated by the feminists, and most of us just want equal rights. The Me Too movement has been terrible in that it went WAY to far and punished a ton of people who didn't deserve it. Or should of been forgiven. It got a few high profile douche bags. And that was it. What it did do is destroy the careers of many people who didn't deserve it.

And now we're seeing men all over the place hit despair because of the family rights issues. Most of us just want to be treated equally. And we know, as fathers... We're not. Not to mention the draft, worker safety, and other things we want.

kirewes · 2022-07-09T19:48:25+00:00

Yo, I'm going to try and reply to these questions paragraph by paragraph in the order they were asked.

I think the type of man that you've met who have specifically use men's rights as an opponent to feminism and women's rights are not by my definition/opinion men's rights activist but simply people who may have multiple different reasons to simply be angry with women, feminism or women's rights movement. Again this is an assumption but if correct I assume it's for multiple reasons and I could be wrong but who's to say without sitting down and actually talking to these "men's Rights movement" individuals. Side note my definition of a men's rights movements is something that hopefully the logical (and mostly unbiased) majority sees as a good thing but fair for men. I don't see how or why it would conflict with women's rights or feminism if you define that as using the same logic but replacement the word man with woman.

There are multiple things that can be changed for the benefits of men one of them I think is giving a guy an option to opt out of fatherhood if a woman would like to keep the baby. My stance is pro-choice but I view it as "your body your choice" but also "your responsibility your choice" so "my responsibility my choice". However I think the man should pay the woman enough money to do the abortion as a release of responsibility in order to also help her financially if she decides to keep the child. Another thing I would like is to outlaw circumcision until a boy reaches the age of 13-14 unless medically necessary for health or something like that. That is considered the age of reason and logical thinking. My reasoning behind that is the lack of that person's choice of mutilation. Imagine being born into the world but a random piece of you is going to be cut off for no real beneficial reason that can't be adapted to. Another part is the change of work safety on different jobs. Finally would be the recognition that women can and have in the past raped or sexually assaulted a man. Regardless of the gender it should be treated all the same. I know that's more of a societal issue though and even men need to recognize that.

As far as sexism of men... That's a complicated subject and I think it's more so sexism of people in general. If you or anyone else's interested I can send you some videos but I think part of the root problem is tribalism. Like I said beforehand it is extremely complicated and multifested.

I personally am of a similar mind to yours when it comes to toxic masculinity and toxic femininity. One important thing is to figure out a individual's definition of words phrases or subjects. On the surface level it seems like we have similar ideas on that.

Lastly I don't see it as offensive and you are actually inquiring about these things. I think if you are truly inquiring then you should be able to ask it without worrying about offending someone. Whatever you do if it's to actually benefit your knowledge I think it's okay to offend people.

Aquariumpsychotic · 2022-07-10T06:33:05+00:00

Sexism towards men comes from the modern feminism movement with the slogans f men. It’s also rooted into society. If you want change push for women to get drafted and for equal prison time

Lanoir97 · 2022-07-10T13:39:46+00:00

Hey, hope some healthy discourse takes place in here. For me, I first got into it as a moody teen that was a reactionary, I’ll admit. As I gained life experience I changed my stances in a lot of areas. I think big things for me are circumcision, male disposability, and legal parental surrender.

I am not a fan of circumcision. I wish I wasn’t. I want society to look on it for what it is. I also really don’t know why we always compare 1st world medical circumcision to 3rd world FGM. I’ll agree both are abhorrent but 3rd world MGM happens too, and is on par with the examples we’re always shown of FGM.

Male disposability is another one. The top 25 most dangerous jobs are male dominated. Like 90%+. Unlike other careers, I rarely see any advocation for women in these careers. Hell, I don’t know a lot of men that actually do them because that’s what they want to do. They guys that do it, do it for the money.

I’ve worked with too many 50+ year old guys who work themselves to death 70+ hours a week because they’ve conditioned themselves to value themselves for what they can produce financially and nothing else. It’s as if the only thing that makes them happy is making and spending money. Obviously some people are just that way but society puts a lot of pressure on men to produce and provide for their families.

Lastly, legal parental surrender. It’s become a bigger issue recently with Roe v. Wade overturned, but has also been a topic for me. Firstly, I’m pro-choice and believe women should have access to abortions. But, men haven’t ever had any legal recourse from that position. I’ve seen all kinds of posts about women being second class citizens, women would go to war if the genders were reversed. Etc. Before, I couldn’t get a lot of responses and ironically the responses I did get from the pro-choice crowd were that I should “keep it in my pants” or “buck up and take responsibility”.

This got long winded and I’m sure you’ve had plenty of others. I wrote this before my morning coffee so it might be a little hard to follow. However, I’ll follow up and ask what you think the biggest issues facing females are today and how men can advocate for them?

gre2704 · 2022-07-10T17:32:11+00:00

Since pretty much all of the points I was going to make are already addressed, I'm gonna skip to a question I saw you ask several times: "how do we change the cat and dog mentality between Feminism and the MRM?"
I think a very good first step would be to reign in the extremists. I might be biased but I see this a lot in the MRM. If some guy goes off the rails, serveral commenters push back. However I don't see that with feminism. Even my mother and sister who are very intelligent women seem to shut off their logical faculties whenever some popular feminist says something and just tow the party line.

A good example is Lacy Greens "If you're too drunk to drive, you're too drunk to give consent." statement. They were all for it but then I told them that with those rules, I'm a rapist because I sure as hell had had consentual sex with my girlfriend after she's had more than two beers / glasses of whine. Then I asked my sister if she's ever had consentual sex with her boyfriend after having had that amount of alcohol, which she confirmed. So I told her that in this case, her boyfriend can join me in jail for rape. Same thing with my mom so yeah, my dad would join us too in the slammer.

After that instead of admitting it was a stupid idea to begin with they tried to weasle out of it with arguments like "well I don't think she meant being legally too drunk to drive but rather being drunk to the point that you can't physically get a vehicle to drive." which I think we can all agree is bullshit.

So to summarise: reign in the extremists in your own ranks and admit when you were wrong will make a hell of a good start.

Title	Genuine questions
Author	clenson7
Upvotes	231
Comments	210
Date	July 8, 2022 8:57 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/vuknb7/genuine_questions/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/genuine-questions.1122532 https://theredarchive.com/post/1122532

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