Had a facebook discussion surrounding men's rights. It went just about the way you'd expect.

TheEthicalMan · 2013-10-26T22:29:29+00:00

Presenting facts="hating women."

It's so effing predictable at this point.

JaydenPope · 2013-10-26T21:03:24+00:00

I like how they call you a misogynist even tho they have no willingness to back up their claims.

The only time women make more is when they decide not to marry or bare children, women make 20-30% over their lifetime than men.

ibm2431 · 2013-10-26T20:58:09+00:00

One thing I learned from a post/comment by GWW (which sadly I can't seem to find right now), is that you need to relate these statistics to evidence of gender inequality/discrimination in the same manner someone would link similar statistics of black populations to racism.

Basically, if someone would use higher prison sentences, faltering education, homelessness, etc. as evidence of discrimination against blacks, why are those same statistics not evidence of discrimination against men in general? If presented with a mountain of evidence of a group falling behind in every conceivable category, most people would reasonably conclude there's something institutional at play.

Something to keep in mind when they pull the "show me it's the result of sexism against men" line.

real-boethius · 2013-10-26T20:25:34+00:00

Your post covered:

Workplace deaths
Prison sentences
gender differences in homelessness rates
cancer rates and expenditures
longevity
suicide

Her only reply?

GENDER WAGE GAP!!!! 77 cents on the dollar and I have to drive a lot! Workplace sexual harassment! MY PROBLEMS ARE WORSE THAN YOURS.

AustNerevar · 2013-10-26T23:24:28+00:00

YOUR FACTS ARE ALL WRONG

No, see here here and here.

I NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH YOUR FACTS AND ARGUMENT, JUST YOUR TONE

You were the one insulting me and calling me a women hater. I was calm, polite and civil. I responded to all of your posts with data and explained why what you were saying does not gel with multiple sources of data

YEAH WELL YOUR DATA WAS WRONG

Seriously, we just went over where all the facts came from

YOUR TONE IS WRONG, NOT THE FACTS, YOU ARE DETERMINED TO BE A WOMAN-HATER

... I never made value-judgments on anyone, you, women, etc, I just defended my argument from your irrational onslaught

WELL YOUR ARGUMENT WAS BASED ON FALSIFIED FACTS AND BIASED DATA!

What!?!

NOW YOU'RE BEING AN ANGRY MISOGYNIST AGAIN

Electroverted · 2013-10-26T21:00:41+00:00

They're cherry-picking little specifics of your post instead of the entire thing to try to discredit / invalidate your argument. It's a typical debating method.

BatmanBrah · 2013-10-26T21:32:41+00:00

It's as if she literally has a 10 second memory and forgot all the facts you just told her.

Some people are simply indoctrinated by bullshit.

disposable_mail · 2013-10-26T19:48:23+00:00

Page #7. Yellow. Third one down.

Where are the graphs that say men earn more per hour statistically?

The CONSAID report is rather clear that men work more hours.

Men are more likely to go to college?

What?

You need this article http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html

and this article

http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2013/jul/15/terry-mcauliffe/mcauliffe-says-women-earn-77-percent-mens-pay-same/

added Also, read this

http://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/1cepqu/the_myth_of_the_ideal_worker_study_finds_that/c9g6w8u

phatstjohn · 2013-10-26T21:12:57+00:00

Doesn't account for work outside of work- like child rearing and housekeeping.

So men don't do any of this?

I don't know about you guys, but in my household growing up, me and my Father did 90% of the cleaning, and he was also a much better parent than my bitch of a Step-Mother.

Hirudin · 2013-10-26T21:35:54+00:00

[permanently deleted]

passionPunch · 2013-10-26T22:41:06+00:00

Jesus why do they assume you hate women. Several times you say you're only bringing up statistics, and they continue to call you a woman hater.

Hirudin · 2013-10-26T19:12:59+00:00

Anyway. This was one of the first arguments I really got into. Any thing I did right? Any thing I could have done better?

Edit: The entire text on the cut off part on page 7 is:

None of this is blaming women. Pointing out that more public money is spent on women is the fault of whoever makes those decisions. Putting men in jail for longer sentences is the fault of lawyers, judges, and policymakers regardless of their gender. As for earning more per hour, that has already been discussed earlier in this conversation. I've made my point about that. It's a non-issue. As for more men going to college, that might be an issue if more males were going to college, which is untrue. Colleges are 60% female, and affirmative action programs, Title IX, and a whole slew of gender specific government programs and funding are available to women but not to men.

Sorry for the mixup.

Spenzo2006 · 2013-10-26T22:12:35+00:00

I don't see how you are a douche for arguing your point and winning. Apparently in this world if you have a point that not everyone agrees with, it takes you awhile to explain it, (because people cannot rap their heads around it), and if you use a diction that is at least slightly smarter than them, you are a douche. This is how every conversation goes between my friends and I whenever we talk about any form of free-thinking.

lackedbettername · 2013-10-26T22:12:06+00:00

Hey man, I salute you for holding your ground and having a kick-ass argument. I admire how you were able to keep your cool and not be riled by their insults which they had to use when they realized you won the argument.

Stuffstuffpiggypig · 2013-10-26T22:48:34+00:00

I have to say, it is very very hard to present people with sourced facts when they have been indoctrinated against them. This is exactly why, even as a girl, I hardly ever talk to girls about this stuff. Its damn near impossible to get a valid point across, no matter how fair and intelligent you are being. It is also beyond frustrating. I give you mad mad props for not giving in and getting super sarcastic with her, as I would have. You're infographic was very good, btw. :)

2013-10-26T22:30:08+00:00

The cognitive dissonance in that thread is incredible. Good for you for remaining civil and handling yourself well, despite their best attempts to provoke you. The 'disagree with feminist theory = misogyny' trope is so tired and played out at this point that it's become borderline pathetic to see it invoked.

einexile · 2013-10-27T01:12:16+00:00

"These figures are from 2004," said someone who didn't care in 2004.

2013-10-26T22:54:23+00:00

Lady dogma is impossible to reason with. They just get shriller and more personal.

Hirudin · 2013-10-26T23:01:33+00:00

Gotta hand it to you. You kept your cool the entire time. I've been attacked so many times feminists and white knights on fb as a misogynist, that I eventually quit arguing with them on fb and then eventually left fb. What's the point of being in a place where you get slammed even for discussing rationally and openly about these topics. It's no longer a free culture when bullying is a necessary and legitimate tactic people can use to thwart rational dialogue. My conclusion: It's my own fault for bringing these topics up on a feminist platform like fb.

Women will get away saying anything to you under the sun and no one will come to help you if you are a man. That's the reality. They show all characteristics of religious extremists - blind, superstitious, ignorant and prejudiced, with a sense of moral superiority. I don't know how you defeat a pervasive extremism of this kind in the society because rationality has no effect on their minds.

2013-10-26T21:48:57+00:00

[permanently deleted]

nakatayuji · 2013-10-26T22:42:39+00:00

"man up dude" -any other guy....

this honestly makes me so sad, but it gives me hope to see people who can argue levelheadedly. you're a good person.

JesseJaymz · 2013-10-27T02:08:20+00:00

Ooh ooh ooh, my favorite part is "you're not taking into account work outside of work", uhhhh you mean life??

AustNerevar · 2013-10-27T01:45:35+00:00

Well, maybe you shouldn't have tried to rape her with your math-penis.

Number357 · 2013-10-26T22:32:35+00:00

She works a solid 40 hour week? Wow, sounds hard. Men are ~2.5x more likely to work 50+ hours a week, whereas women are about twice as likely to work <40 hours a week.

BaltoSquadGuy · 2013-10-27T00:51:19+00:00

Carry on the struggle, OP. Very well constructed argument, and wah to stay aloof of their trolling.

ElfmanLV · 2013-10-27T01:41:27+00:00

Similar argument I had in my field of work. Demographics were done regarding employment every 5 years since 1980, and they found out:

men earned 50% more than women
those who worked in the field 20 years and up earned 70% more than those 5 years or less
90% of women in the field entered within the last 10 years
of the newly hired, gender was split 50/50
the only people exiting the field or taking leave were from the last 10 years, and they were all women

(numbers are rounded +/- 5% for clarity/memory's sake)

What did my female colleagues got out of it? "Oh my god, I can't believe men earn 50% more than women! That is sexist! Wage gap, wage gap!" Just from looking at the data, it's pretty obvious that the wage gap is due to years of experience and not gender. The only reason females have lower wage is because 90% of them have less than 10 years of experience. Fact is, newly hired females make the same, if not more, than newly hired males.

(Could try to provide source if interested.)

2013-10-27T03:58:08+00:00

-2004
-out of date

-_-

88high · 2013-10-27T02:57:39+00:00

Girl posts feminist propoganda: praised

Guy posts men's rights picture: bullied and laughed at by feminists and other people

2013-10-26T23:37:49+00:00

deleted ^{^{^What}} ^{^{^is}} ^{^{^this?}}

Muffinizer1 · 2013-10-27T11:34:32+00:00

Facebook is not the place for this.

Spyder_J · 2013-10-27T13:24:48+00:00

<sigh> Are we EVER going to be able to chase that fucking gender wage gap fallacy out of the public consciousness?

2013-10-27T13:26:45+00:00

"Had a facebook discussion"

Well there's your problem.

2013-10-26T21:08:18+00:00

You. I like you.

Hirudin · 2013-10-27T01:46:53+00:00

MEN LITERALLY COMMIT SUICIDE MORE BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE VIOLENT!

Viperys · 2013-10-26T22:03:55+00:00

Well actually it didn't go about the way i had expected, props to you and your female opponent both for being polite and actually discussing things. Last time i started such a discussion, it all boiled down to bitching from the ~third post.

2013-10-26T22:52:23+00:00

As someone who has argued with people over this before, on reddit, on facebook, outside of the internet, you did fine.

You determine your goal, form your strategy and implement it. You brought awareness to these views with that argument.

guywithaccount · 2013-10-26T22:58:37+00:00

Good try, your patience held out longer than mine would have.

chocoboat · 2013-10-27T02:15:45+00:00

To be completely fair, your tone was a tiny bit confrontational (though no sane person would take offense from it). It is best to simply present the facts and explain why there is a problem.

But it's quite sad that her response is to compete in the Oppression Olympics, and then accuse you of hating women.

I really wish you had pointed this out to them. "SHUT UP, someone else might have it worse than you!" is not a response to people who have problems. We should try to help solve problems for all people, not just certain groups of people.

I also wish you had explained that this isn't about hating women at all. She has entirely missed the point if she thinks you are complaining about greedy women taking things away from men. It is simply about being treated equally by society, and she ought to learn that.

Finally, I would recommend pointing out to Miss Yellow that it is the Left wing that is usually egalitarian and tries to ensure equal treatment for all people. I'd ask why she doesn't want equal treatment for men and women - in courts, in cancer research, in support for the homeless, and so on.

chakravanti93 · 2013-10-27T02:47:51+00:00

I stopped reading at "lower median salary" if you understand math enough to use this word then you are equivicolly educated to the fact that anyone else who knows what this word means knows you're completely full shit.

Semisonic · 2013-10-27T04:55:13+00:00

I thought I had that image bookmarked, but I can't find it.

Can you link me to the original image (full size) plus any supporting links (not listed) that you found helpful?

robswins · 2013-10-27T05:25:46+00:00

People need better facebook friends. I have facebook friends who identify as feminist, but none that fail at logic as hard as the people responding to OP on this post. The only group of people I truly hate are those that use their own ignorance as a tool to hurt others.

2013-10-27T05:55:25+00:00

Can someone please explain to me how, if feminists want to eliminate gender roles and stuff, a valid argument for things like a shorter work week are things like taking care of kids, not enough daycare centers, taking kids to and from school, etc.? Doesn't that burden also fall on men?

melb22 · 2013-10-27T06:27:39+00:00

Well done! You refused to be either intimidated or to lose your cool. If this starts to happen more, then we will win.

ShrektheHulk · 2013-10-27T06:32:59+00:00

par for the course. only men can be sexist and if you don't agree with that then you hate women. what a shame :/

2013-10-27T07:32:26+00:00

My black friend Doug has a yellow douche friend named Michael.

And have you read the BLS website? I have responded to every fact you mentioned, even after its clear you have, and you just keep shouting numbers and stats. Have you even read the BLS website!?

Ghee_Buttersnaps_ · 2013-10-27T08:25:08+00:00

TIL that acknowledging skewing of facts by feminists is the same as hating all women.

Killwize · 2013-10-27T08:38:48+00:00

I just loved all the straw man arguments she made... Calling you right-wing was so classic!

Note... i think the colors switched halfway through.

2013-10-27T09:02:52+00:00

So wait. Workplace deaths can be accounted for because of individual choices, but lower incomes can't? What kind of mental gymnastics...

2013-10-27T09:09:30+00:00

You might want to redo the censorblocks OP. I can see your first name in there.

Caelamid · 2013-10-27T12:28:47+00:00

I like to read something like this every so often. Reminds me that the struggle against indoctrination is real.. Reminds me of the need for conviction.

2013-10-27T12:29:33+00:00

I love that she was arguing that data from 2004 was too old. What was her argument? That things used to be great for women and and awful for men, but it flipped in the last 9 years?

dalik · 2013-10-27T12:40:00+00:00

Seems like a normal reddit thread

joedude · 2013-10-27T13:06:15+00:00

they also kind of just trailed off at the end saying the same things a few times to an already beleaguered audience.

Normally i would hate on a stupid post like this, but it was properly titled and also rabidly hilarious.

whiteout69 · 2013-10-27T13:18:28+00:00

Jesus Christ I'm a huge liberal and that last line orange bitch had just made me cringe. S/he is what makes the left look bad

DuchessofYanks · 2013-10-27T13:44:29+00:00

I love this. She slowly but surely goes from not liking the data, then saying its outdated, then finally just admitting she doesn't like your "tone". THEN she accuses YOU (the only person who was staying on topic) of derailing while calling you a woman hater and trying to bring up other arguments that weren't relevant to the conversation. Who was really derailing here?

yankeesfan13 · 2013-10-27T14:37:32+00:00

That whole maternity leave argument pisses me off so much.

In a hypothetical world where men and women work identical jobs with identical hours and education, men should earn more over an extended period of time. If a women takes a month off from work to have a baby, she shouldn't be paid then. It shouldn't be treated as a disability because it just isn't. If a woman has sex, even once and with birth control, she should be open to having a baby, because there is a possibility that it will happen.

chillmonkey88 · 2013-10-27T14:55:44+00:00

So well done... I hate your yellow friend... get rid of that poison off your fb unless they are family...

IMULTRAHARDCORE · 2013-10-27T14:59:46+00:00

I like how your statistics were all wrong because she says so.

perfectgyroscope · 2013-10-27T20:42:05+00:00

I'm just going to link to a few addons that makes taking these kind of screenshots easier (as you can capture the entire page at once).

Firefox: Screen Grab (fixed version)

Chrome: Screen Capture by Google

junoguten · 2013-10-27T21:03:29+00:00

It's like playing chess with a pigeon. Nomatter how much you cry, it will still continue to outplay a feminist. Pigeons have no sympathy for whiners.

pnkrtonfloyd · 2013-11-17T13:39:15+00:00

Ignorant sheeps.. This large group of mainstream thinkers that only say things they have been taught through media and other politically correct middleclass morons. Trying to have a reasonable discussion about a lot of topics is pretty darn impossible. What makes me angry is that attitude they have that screams "in a good person and you are not"

WhatTheFlup · 2013-10-27T09:34:41+00:00

I still can't tell if this subreddit is serious or not.

harryballsagna · 2013-10-26T22:20:57+00:00

Every. Fucking. Time.

kronox · 2013-10-27T01:05:24+00:00

I couldn't finish reading. That is some mega dumb. I feel dumber having read what little i did.

2013-10-27T01:07:18+00:00

I love how that idiot feminist brings up the "fact" that men are likely to go to college even though university enrolments hover around 55% female on average across western nations.

afkkk · 2013-10-26T23:32:06+00:00

The whole wage gap is just a symptom of a larger issue: Wages overall not increasing with the "standard of living". Ideally the average family would be able to live off of one income while a spouse takes care of young children.

gtrmu223 · 2013-10-27T04:28:34+00:00

Dude, you will NEVER win an argument with a woman, no matter how hard you try. Chris Rock summed it up perfectly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f_oxZqD6wQ

SmooK_LV · 2013-10-27T01:38:22+00:00

Well, I must agree that the woman was being more of a fool, but I can't say that you were the wise guy there. Both of you were pretty foolish. You should've left the discussion when you felt that she won't try to see your point - it just isn't worth it, there are tons of people like that.

2013-10-27T19:10:21+00:00

Maybe you should consider not being a cunt to your friends?

Freedom_Always_Wins · 2013-10-27T02:30:04+00:00

I was just linked here and before I leave, I, a male, would like to say that anyone who takes this sub seriously is a fucking retard.

Thank you.

Title	Had a facebook discussion surrounding men's rights. It went just about the way you'd expect.
Author	Hirudin
Upvotes	550
Comments	200
Date	October 26, 2013 7:12 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1p9ql8/had_a_facebook_discussion_surrounding_mens_rights/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/had-a-facebook-discussion-surrounding-mens-rights.1160393 https://theredarchive.com/post/1160393

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